Pale, Grisled (Green) 4th Horse – Death


The pale horse of death is preceded by the black horse of famine, which in itself causes death. How is the pale horse different?

Rev 6:8   And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The Pale Horse destroys, then in 5 ways:

1. the sword – from the red horse of war, which continues

2. hunger- from the black horse of famine, which continues

3. death (method not described)

4. beasts of the field

5. by bringing Hell with it.- I think this leads to the next seal of martyrdom, when Hell attacks the saints.

Notice that ¼ of the earth is affected.


Here there seems to be 4-5 main land masses divided into 7 regions.

Is this death confined to one land mass, or is it regional?

Or maybe it is global?

The death (method is not described) is the mystery. It might be the most insidious, and evil.

Man’s treachery against those he hates?

Demonic (“alien”) activity?


Weapons of mass destruction?


Nature’s rebellion against man?

Direct, supernatural event from the hand of God?

Beasts of the field are also mentioned as a destructive force.

Zechariah also describes the activity of the 4 horses. The pale horse is further described as “grisled (spotted, piebald, usually white and a darker color) and bay (reddish brown with a black maine).”

Zec 6:2   In the first chariot [were] red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

Zec 6:3   And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Bay horses range in color from a light copper red, to a rich red blood bay (the best-known variety of bay horse) to a very dark red or brown called dark bay, mahogany bay, black-bay, or brown (occasionally "seal brown").

Either this means there was

1. a combination of pale horses and reddish brown horses pulling one chariot, or it means

2. each horse was spotted, with white and reddish brown markings.

Comparing the Zechariah description to Revelation:

Rev 6:8   And I looked, and behold a pale [grisled] horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation calls this grisled (light and dark spots) horse “pale.” In the GREEK text, the word "chloros" is present. "Chloros" means GREEN, or yellowish pale. It is the same as seen in the world chlorophyll, which is the green color of plants. Obviously, the translators could not imagine a green horse, so gave us the word "pale" instead.

Green is associated with Islam. Muslim countries tend to have green in their flags and banners. Here, this flag is grisled in that it is 2 colors: green and white.

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Will the grisled horse bring dangers from Islam, and cause death worldwide?

Will terrorism cover the earth, and kill ¼ of the population?

Green is also associated with the environment.


Will the grisled horse bring dangers from the environment, and cause death?

Will pestilence and disease, pollution, and chemical contamination of water and food bring the death of ¼ of the population of the earth?

Where do the horses go?

A. Regional interpretation

Possibly the horses have regional assignments, rather than all of them having a global agenda.

According to Zechariah,

Zec 6:6   The black horses which [are] therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.

Zec 6:7   And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

So, from the above description, this is what I see regarding the activity of each horse, with

1. Israel being the point of reference:


Israel’s enemies typically came from the north (Assyria, Babylon, Selucids, and Romans) or the south (Egyptians).

So, if Israel is the starting point of reference,

The black and white horses head toward Assyria, Babylon, Selucids, and Romans, bringing famine, and false peace. Or they can go further north, as far as Russia and Europe.

The grisled, (pale) spotted horse heads toward Egypt, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Or it can go further south, as far as Africa.

For this interpretation to hold, however, the grisled horse would have to kill ¼ of the earth.

But since the stated point of reference is the mountains of brass,

Zec 6:1 ¶ And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains [were] mountains of brass.

We then have to determine where the mountains of brass are.

See also:

4 Horses – 4 Horns – 4 Beasts – of Zechariah and Revelation.


The major candidate for the 2 mountains of brass is Iran, since it has plentiful copper mines in 2 mountain ranges.

2.. So, the alternate point of reference is Iran.

If this is the case, then one would shift the arrows over to the right, more east, on the map.

However, the horses seem to go to the same general areas as compared to Israel being the point of reference.

Interestingly, bay also means copper colored, or reddish brown, referring to the mountains of brass, so could this mean something from Iran that effects most of the earth?

The red horse also proceeds from here as well, so it might mean that when war starts, it will be associated, or initiated, with Iran.

B. Global Interpretation

For this interpretation to hold, the pale, grisled horse would have to kill ¼ of the earth. Since this is a large population, it would have to include more than Egypt, or the Islamic countries to the south.


Current reports from various sources have estimated that 1.2 to 1.57 billion Muslims populate the world, or about 23% of an estimated 2009 world population of 6.8 billion with around 62% in Asia-Pacific, 20% in the Middle East and North Africa, 15% in Sub-Saharan Africa and around 2% in Europe & Americas. Muslims in non-Asian countries account for a minority of total Muslim populations and they are mostly of Asian origin; from South Asia, Central Asia and Middle East.

The world population (2010) is about 6,845,609,960.

The population of Africa (2010) is about 1,013,779,050, which is about 15% of the world population.

So it is clear that the grisled, pale horse affects more than Egypt or Africa, and this is a global event.

The same would also hold true for the other horses.

So the map actually looks like this:


Conclusion for all 4 horses:

While the initial direction might be regional, as indicated by Zechariah, it will not stop there.

The final direction will be global.

The final horse, the pale and grisled, brings Hell with it.

For those who have NOT accepted the salvation of Jesus, this brings their torment, death, and damnation.

I pray that all will open their eyes, and seek the truth of God for their lives, while there is still time.

The door is closing.

145 Responses to “Pale, Grisled (Green) 4th Horse – Death”

  1. Islam is the broad way that leads to hell …Matthew 7

  2. Hi Marriane,

    This is the conclusion that I came to regarding the 4th seal. The 2nd seal/Red Horse is given power to take peace from the earth so that men slay each other. I don’t believe that this is just in reference to military against military, but the removal of peace in general, meaning that there will be no peace within nations and individuals.

    The 3rd seal/Black Horse is of course famine and that by the reference in regards to what is said regarding not “Damaging” the oil and the wine would infer that the wheat and barley are somehow damage, ergo, the famine.

    The 4th seal/Pale Horse where a fourth of the earth’s population is killed are the results of the 2nd and 3rd seals. The meaning of Hades following close behind Death tells us that, that fourth that are killed are the wicked, because no believer in Christ goes into Hades and therefore, none of those who are killed here are in regards to the saints of that time.

    The mention of them being killed by the wild beasts of the earth may also be a result of the famine. For If you have a worldwide famine, the result is that many prey animals may die off, then those predatory meat eating animals are going to look for other food sources, humans! I believe that the mention of Barley and Wheat is representing the basic food sources, in other words, it’s not just barley and wheat that will be in short supply.

    • hi Don

      Those are good thoughts. I have some thoughts too about the oil and wine. That will be in another post soon. It has to do with the harvest seasons in Israel, as predictive of tribulation events and timing. Think also about tiny beasts, such as microbes, bacteria, viruses. During natural disasters, like earthquakes and floods, pollution of water and food supplies can occur. People can get diseases.

    • Hi Don,
      I just want to make a note about the line:

      Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

      The word Hell is mistranslated here just as it is everywhere else in the bible – Old Testament, and New Testament. The Jews do not believe in hell, they never did, nor did Jesus or his apostles. In the Old Testament the word “sheol” or grave was changed by the King James translators to “Hell” wherever they could. It appears twice in the Book of Revelation.

      In this case, the true meaning is simple. Death is followed by the grave. It is just a phrase and it makes sense. No need to assign all the deaths to just the wicked. That would entail judgment which only God can give. These deaths are by the hand of man, not God.

      Note that the phrase is used again in Revelation 20:

      Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

      Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

      The top line should be read ”and death and graves delivered up the dead which were in them“ Let’s face it, anyone burning in hell must have already been judged, plus the line indicated that the people are dead, so they must be in the grave and not hell.
      Then death and the grave had become obsolete, as all still living are given eternal life. Throwing hell into the lake of fire makes no sense, even if there were such a place.


  3. Hi Marianne, I think, it is not the fourth part of mankind that is slain but rather the killing will be in the fourth part of the earth with the number of casualties unknown.

  4. Maybe you didn’t know this, but Jesus explains in Matt 24 exactly what the seals are, in the exact order as they appear in Revelation. Here are the first five:

    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (1st horse)

    Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (2nd horse)

    Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (Still 2nd horse) and there shall be famines (3rd horse), and pestilences (4th horse), and earthquakes, in divers places.(5th seal)

    Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

    He goes on to describe the rest of the seals, in order.
    It IA generally accepted that there will be a devastating world war 3 in the tribulation. That will be the 2nd horse. The war will bring massive famine (3rd horse) and the rotting corpses by the billions will create unbelievable pestilences which will wipe out even more people and the cycle will continue to spiral.
    These will not be supernatural but rather the work of mankind itself, who would wipe itself out completely if Christ does not return to stop the madness.

    Check it out and God bless!

    • hi eyesofgod4u

      Thanks for the good thoughts. God bless you, and may he protect you in the days ahead.

    • See in same chapter that the rapture theory gets contradicted by Jesus. However, there is safety for those with His seal on their foreheads. Also I believe that a place in a physical wilderness is being prepared, but the released 666-prisoner’s despotism will first have to be countered by the UN, as prophesied.

      Only then can the true disciples of Jesus (“remnant of Israel”) be united and restored into one body. Haggai 2………….is waiting in the wings!

  5. Revelation 6:7-8, “When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, ‘Come!’ And I looked, and there was a pale green horse. The horseman on it was named Death, and Hades was following after him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.”

    I believe that the reference to the green horse is directly related to Islam (

    Has power over 1/4th of the earth and is followed by death and hell – who may this signify? Read here:

    The Islamic world is waiting for the “Savior of Humanity” whom they call “al Mahdi” ( In Hosea 13:4b God says that, “you shall know no God but Me; For THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME.” According to God, anyone who claims to be the savior is showing themself to be God — which is what al Mahdi will proclaim and be proclaimed to be. The arrival of al Mahdi will be like a breath of life to the Islamic world who will then want to enforce the “will of Allah” as it is written in the Qur’an and prepare for judgment day by killing all Jews and Christians.

    The Islamic world even expects the Mahdi to reveal himself at any moment (read here Quote: “The spokesman of Iran’s Supreme Leader called on neighboring countries to mobilize their forces in preparation for the coming of the savior of Islam and to unite with the Islamic Republic in paving the way for his arrival, an Iranian news agency reported Sunday.

    Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s spokesman, Ali Saeedi, said countries like Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan and Afghanistan should gather together all their forces in order to make drastic changes to prepare for the coming of al-Mahdi al-Montazar, Arabic for ‘the awaited guided one.'”

    Now check out the description of this book called “Al Mahdi and the End of Time” ( These Sunni writers claim to find their Islamic savior — al Mahdi — in the Book of Revelation, writing:

    Quote: “I find the Mahdi recorded in the books of the Prophets… For instance, the Book of Revelation says: ‘And I saw and behold a white horse. He that sat on him… went forth conquering and to conquer… It is clear that this man is the Mahdi who will ride the white horse and judge by the Qur’an (with justice) and with whom will be men with marks of prostration (zabiba) on their foreheads…. The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.” (page 16).

    Briefly, with respect to the image of the Beast, I think that one possibility is related directly to the Qur’an itself. The word “Qur’an” means the recitation. Literally, to speak. The image of Islam today — which is a reflection of the Qur’an — is one of world conquest (

    Anyone who speaks against Islam, the (false) prophet Mohammed, or the Qur’an should be killed, according to what the Qur’an says (which they believe is the literal “Word of Allah”).

    Rev 13:15, “And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”

    The word for “worship” is “proskyneō” (G4352) and one of the definitions is “to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence.”

    Great Tribulation is coming. Are we ready for it?

  6. Hello everyone I have read the last post re-Scott encounter with the Angel and believe what he has said and I must insist that if you want to survive ,follow the Fatima message on the Third Secret it will be the only way that we will survive .I believe that God has broth me to your site for a reason and that reason is to save you .but it will only work if you follow the message otherwise :You will all parish and go to hell .
    God bless you all

    • “follow the Fatima message”, or “You will all parish and go to hell.”

      How about we just follow what Christ has told us to do. Is that OK with you?


      Islam is not just a religion, it is a political system, and it is evil. I believe this is Lucifer’s greatest lie to mankind, and greatest trick he has pulled on humans. Following Islam appears to me to make it easy for people to be possessed by the dead Nephilim, and fallen Angels. Doing murder in the name of a false god. Which helps bring about the regional war in the Middle East, and setting up the last war before Christ comes to stop the maddness.

      Unless you are Amish, I suppest arming yourselfs with one rifle, one side arm, a lot of gun oil, ammo, and two trash cans full of freeze dried goods. I like the stew.

  7. Hi Marianne,

    Above you say,”Green is associated with Islam. Muslim countries tend to have green in their flags and banners.”

    Though the Saudi flag would be an example of that being the case,
    many predominantly Muslim nations have a variety of different colors.

  8. Hi to all & prayers for peace..I struggle with this issue, should we really arm ourselves & shoot people or just graciuosly except our destiny & trust in the Lord?… Is anyone seeing what we are seeing here in Calif, new mosques appearing right NEXT door to christian churches? In our case their mosque shares our parking lot!! There were many other locations this mosque could have been placed. I have been attending services more regularly these days (!) & I see the mosque is overflowing with muslims. There is a pastor who actually teaches classes on how to witness to muslims…he says do not be afraid of them & teaches how or which issuses to raise first & how to back up the issues, with love & encouragement, very intetersting, guess we have to try for their salvation…..& maybe they will bomb us…but they are here to stay & have their way…..

  9. Hi to all & prayers for peace…I struggle with this issue, should we really arm ourselves & shoot people or just graciuosly except our destiny & trust in the Lord?… Is anyone seeing what we are seeing here in Calif, new mosques appearing right NEXT door to christian churches? In our case their mosque shares our parking lot!!! There were many other locations this mosque could have been placed. I have been attending services more regularly these days (!) & I see the mosque is overflowing with muslims. There is a pastor who travels among the curches & actually teaches classes on how to witness to muslims…He says do not be afraid of them & teaches how or which issuses to raise first & how to back up the issues, with love & encouragement. Very intetersting, guess we have to try for their salvation…..& maybe they will bomb us…..we haven’t seen any efforts to convert us yet! It is clear they are here to stay & to have their way…..blessings!

  10. Hi Elle,

    I believe that the Religion of Islam is evil, not the people, and we are to reach out to them with love.

    I was referred to the web-site below by a previous Muslim who is now a born again Christian. It is very informative and could possibly be used to supplement the teaching you have already received on how to witness to them.

    Shalom in Yeshua

  11. Only shoot people who try to harm you, your family, or friends. If your Amish, you will have to trust the Lord will come down from heaven to protect your honor, or little children.

    Good luck.

  12. Marianne,

    Elle the Lord said he doesn’t force himself on anyone but on the other hand he said we are to witness to non believers. Wisdom is the key, I think. Pray to God for wisdom.

    I live in the mid west so we are being confronted with the BP OIL nightmare and the planned FEMA earthquake.

    Starvation I believe is coming now or during this next harvest I should say. They say the Barley harvest won’t come in for Russia, nor for Europe because of the seasons being messed up.

    I heard a minister say that 78 percent of the normal wheat harvest won’t come in? Same issue I guess. (I think the amount I quoted is correct, I am going from memory.) He said the harvest are rotten, that it has rings of copper color. The minister was Rod Parsley.

    If the big earthquake they are expecting hits the mid west farm country where will the food come from. Why is all of the plants failing. I guess that is a dumb human thought, it is failing and there will be starvation because God said there would be.

    I just keep thinking, why only bad news! How angry can the Lord be with us? I fear failing the Lord and missing Heaven. The past 4 years of my life have been being in one constant refiners fire after another.

    My church says if the devil is after you, you know you are on the right path or he wouldn’t bother.

    God on the other hand said he will put us in the refiners fire until we get it right and are pure gold. I will be glad when all parts of me turn to pure gold and that the Father is satisfied that I can make it and not fail. When he gives you a stamp of approval you are guaranteed to make it.

    Lord help us, in Jesus Christ name and cover us with the blood over our hearts, minds, souls, bodies and spirits. Turn all of the peoples whose hearts are for you into the purest gold and I pray that mass numbers of them are in the USA.

    I pray he not grow weary of my human frailty and flesh. Heaven is the only place I wish I could be But I have two children and a step son who are all in their 30’s. They have changed faiths, they all believe in God, I can only pray that the Lord will make them ready.

    We are contemplating moving out of the mid west because of the predicting earthquake. It is a hard decision, because one side of my brain says run. Why like Elle said stay and be destroyed?
    The other hand says when you have done all you know to do stand and see the salvation of the Lord. It also says when we reach these times not to go out from our area. That is the part hard for us to believe, we lost everything in the past few years, family home, a major fire that took all of our memories.

    It is almost that these times could harden a mans heart if we watch not. We must remind ourselves that Jesus said the Love of another is one of the most important things we are required to do.

    I am like Elle, more answers of wisdom are required, I can get confused when I think of the new testament and the teaching of Jesus was pure love. The Old testament the Lord was the God of war.

    Neither of our boys are married. Both are now in love, and I expect to hear at any time that they plan on marrying. My daughter to me is in the worse position, she has 4 babies.

    End time, with the mark of the beast and wickedness foretold in the Bible and the things we are seeing scarce me for her and her babies and our boys.

    Prayer and faith are the only thing I know will please the Lord. Asking him now for wisdom, keeping the faith and not growing weary during these times is required. If we fail we must repent and get back on the horse. I don’t know about anyone else but my Husband and I before getting saved hardly ever had words. Then seeking to serve the master the enemy was sending little bouts of anger into our home, then we realized what was going on we were better able to overcome.

    People are being confronted with many things in my opinion that we never as a family or individuals encountered. A study of things we are going to or are going through may be another one of your great studies Marianne.

    I know I sure could use some words of how to deal with the things that are coming. No different then reaching out to you about the move Marianne. I hear or sense there are many others with the same issues or thoughts. I guess it would be like a preparedness, so when it comes we just respond. I don’t mean talking about the words we will say if we are given up to be beheaded over not taking the mark of the beast. But the study of things about food and how we should consider going forward based on what are nation is confronted with today and is there anything that can be done to prepare in overcoming.

    Does that make sense?

    The word of God has every thing needed to over come in all things to be victorious in these times, but do we really know it.
    Just as with Elle’s question, if they came from the Mosque and started to take them how are they permitted to defend themselves?

    Let us pray and seek him that can make life easier. We need wisdom how to turn and go. Our hope is in his love.

    Let us Hold on to our hope in him and pray that he will keep us during this continued fire of refinement.

    God bless Pattie

    • Pattie

      I like you think about – do I leave or do I stay? I could get bombed if we get attacked. I am on the east coast, so that is the first place to get bombed by enemy missiles.

      I have decided that my children keep me here, and maybe others who will need me. If I leave, I would not know that where I am going is any better, because something could happen there as well.

      If my life will be over soon, I want to do as much as I can to serve god. Maybe being in the midst of the fire is where I belong.

      I recall the 3 hebrews that went through the fire. They came out untouched because jesus was in the fire with them.

      Throughout history, good people have died in bad situations.

      But once their life was over, the only thing that mattered was this – were they in the will of God at the time?

      If I abandon those who need me, then I cannot be in God’s will. So I am staying. If I perish helping others, then I have not died in vain.

      God bless you always.

    • HI Pattie, I worry about my children more than me… but all we can do is pray, and keep faith. Yahweh is with us… bless you,,, send me an email,, I would love to hear from you.. and talk…

  13. Marianne, I’m with you, if I should die helping others then that’s the best way to go. Gregg, thank you for the website, there are others as well, I will get the addresses if anyone would like to have them. In the lecture series there were two videos of muslim men who had become christians. Their stories were quite touching. About 6 yrs ago, I was involved in the making of a “short” film, the story included suicide bombers, & the family traditions, etc. I don’t agree the problems are just in the “region” . We need to wake up America!! Yes, there are peace loving muslims, so to speak, but the reality of muslim women converting to christianity is just about non existant unless a male family member has done so. I don’t find that civilized….We must be bold in sharing our faith & the truth of Christ, this IS spiritual warfare. We already know who wins because our mighty King has already told us so!! Great shared comments from all. God keeps His promises, we just need to honor Him in our faith…Blessings!!

  14. What are your beliefs/thoughts regarding the idea of hell as most churches teach it? I attend a Methodist church, but I don’t identify as a Methodist necessarily, as we have recently begun celebrating the biblical feasts in our home. I hear and read such diverse opinions about hell and I struggle with my beliefs about it.

    • hi Hannah

      Well, I do not believe that God is just as well as merciful, so he has to punish the wicked. The concept of “eternal” is difficult to understand since we are limited beings.

      Either God will punish for all eternity, as in suffering for a long time, or he will punish us by burning us up, which will not last long, and then we are gone, nonexistant, for all eternity.

      I just hope to see him in heaven, so I do not have to find out about hell.

      Scripture says our punishment will fit our crimes.

      • It also reads charity covers a multitude of sins. I’m counting on that one to get me the Condo with ocean view, wet bar, hot tub, with a nice coffee and fruit bowel in the mornings.

        I am a little worried G-d will make live next to Rosa.

    • hi Hannah

      Well, I do believe that God is just as well as merciful, so he has to punish the wicked. The concept of “eternal” is difficult to understand since we are limited beings.

      Either God will punish for all eternity, as in suffering for a long time, or he will punish us by burning us up, which will not last long, and then we are gone, nonexistant, for all eternity.

      I just hope to see him in heaven, so I do not have to find out about hell.

      Scripture says our punishment will fit our (unrepented) crimes.

  15. I believe that the pale green horse has been spotted. It was on the news during a report of the chaos in Egypt. The reporter did not even seem to notice that anything was there. Here is a link from someone on fb who recorded it from a camera on her tv.

    Here is the actual website of the report of Rachel Maddow.

    look at 10:26 and you will see it.

    Kind of creepy!

  16. Marianne,

    The fire is to the left of the reflection, and as the camera starts to pan to the right, the reflection also pans to the right.

    From 10:15 – 10:21 the camera is focusing on a fire that has been started by the protesters. In those frames the camera is pointing directly at it. Note that the light standards are in the middle of the frame. From 10:26 – 10:31 that same fire is now behind the protesters to the left,(note the same light standards are now to the left of the frame) and as the camera then starts to pans to the right, the image, (or reflection of the fire) then also starts to move. It is stationary until the camera starts to move.

    However, you can believe whatever you wish to believe.

    • I do not see what you mean. The fire is on the left anyhow. What light standards? I see 2 lights and the “horse” rides right through them. And why would any reflection of a yellow fire be green?

      • Hmmm,

        I thought with you possessing a scientific background in Chemistry, that you would be more analytical in nature, and would first look at all the rational possibilities, before simply accepting something to be fact.

        Not being a camera buff, or expert in light fracture, and spectrum’s, I couldn’t legitimately be able to provide you with any of the answers that you are looking for.
        So I won’t attempt to speculate, when I don’t possess that knowledge.

        Why don’t we leave that explanation up to someone like James,or others with some expertise, and see what he/they think? (why don’t you email him and have him take a look?)

        I would have no problem being proved to be wrong with my opinion. Matter of fact, that would be a “spooky” that I would enjoy.🙂

        • HA!

          I am a biochemist, not a photographer.

          I would love to hear why a green horse shaped spot appeared as a result of fire or camera lights.

          I just don’t understand the science in this case.

          The spooky in this case is more fun to think about.

          • Are you going to email James to have a peek?
            Do you know any shutter bugs?

            (though I agree, the spooky is more fun!🙂 )

            • Speaking of spooky, I bet that you would really like to see this piece of toast that I have. It clearly shows Yeshua and I sharing a pint down at the local pub.

              What’s spooky about it, is that I don’t drink???

  17. well isnt it kind of “ironic” then that this horse guy is in egypt..the one place (other than africa) that you stated in in Egypt? The chaos in Egypt in biblical and is only a start of things to come. No one can really explain this, it is indeed very interesting. If 1/4 of the earth dies in the next few days..maybe we will know our answer.

    • Rachel

      I always wondered if the white, red, black and pale ( green) horses came in consecutive order or together….if it is consecutive, then we are farther along than I thought. the time each horse exerts an influence is not given in scripture.

  18. Rachael and Marianne.

    Do you think this is someones interpretation of the situation? Meaning that the person or persons feel that this
    is the beginning of the third and fourth seal? Or are you thinking this is a prophetic gift from God?

    Am I understanding correctly that the TV station broadcasting this film had the horse imposed within the frame as it aired?

    If so is it possible to have the name of the network in order to make contact?

    I do believe that this is my dream of the two nations with a city on fire. This is one and I look for Jordan to be the next.
    If that happens then we will look for the other issues of the dream to come to past.

    Praying for wisdom and for the nations of Israel, USA and England. The word says pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

    Blessings and peace of the Lord to all who read.


    • hi Pattie

      From what I can tell, the news commentator is oblivious to the green horse.

      Jordan is a fairly stable country. why do you pick that one? I might think the palestinians are next because they are violent anyhow.

  19. Okay,

    I think that it is great that this video clip is a catalyst for us to seek the Lord. That is a message that can never get old.

    But as to this reflection being so seriously considered as being one of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse, leaves me just shaking my head.

    I just spent the last 20 or so minutes doing some simple investigation. For those more interested in a rational and more plausible explanation, I suggest that you utilize this link…

    First I would like you to realize that the image is reflecting off of the interior of the camera lens and therefore is inverted.

    I ask you to please stop the video clip at 10:05 -10:08.
    This is an abandoned bus that the protesters are about to set fire to. If you take a look at the side of the bus we can see, it is the right side, closer to the front wheel there is either a door there, or a blackened area that could be some type of spilled accelerant thrown by the protesters.

    Next, please stop the clip at 10:14. Now you will see that same bus is in flames. If you look at the right side of the bus, where that possible door is located, you will see that it is now fully inflamed. This is what you are seeing in the inverted image as the rider.

    If you take into account that the image is inverted, and look at the bus from this perspective, you can now see that the flame to the right is what you are seeing as the head of the horse, and the flame to the right is the …. well, the rear. The flames that are billowing upward are what you are seeing as the body, or hair of the horse. That is why the hair of the image looks like it is billowing in the wind.

    Another clue is when you allow the clip to run from 10:26 – 10:31 you will see that what looks like the hair of the horse is blowing from right to left. Yet the smoke and the flames are blowing form left to right? Which way do you think that the wind is actually blowing? Again, the image, or reflection, remains motionless until the camera starts to pan to the right, it is only then that it starts to move.

    The clincher though, is if you happen to have a lap top, and can easily watch it all upside down.🙂

    • hi gregg

      The video was taken from that show.

      I have no clue what you just said.

    • maybe someone else can understand what you said. I don’t see it. I see no bus that gives off a green refection.



      Firstly I did make a mistake. Where I say that….you can now see that the flame to the right is what you are seeing as the head of the horse, and the flame to the right is the …. well, the rear.

      That should read, “you can now see that the flame to the right is what you are seeing as the head of the horse, and the flame to the “LEFT” is the …. well, the rear.

      This is when you are looking at the bus burn, during frames 10:14 -10:22 and in utilizing the burning door on the side of the bus as your point of reference. That burning door is what people are perceiving to be the rider of the horse, with the very bottom portion of it being perceived as the riders head, since the green horse image is actually inverted, like any other camera image.

      When you have found that burning door and then look at the the positive and negative shapes that are created by the light from the flame, and no flame, try it imagine what you are looking at as being upside down. (Or turn your lap top upside down to help)

      Then go to the section where the horse first appears, at 10:22 and stop the clip again. Find the bus that is burning on the upper left side of the screen and now look at the burning door on it, and the surrounding dark and light shapes. Also take into consideration the movement of the flame as it correlates to the image of the green horses body. Keep in mind that the image is inverted, and the top of the flames are really what are being perceived as the body and lower portions of the horse.

      Run through the segment from 10:26 through 10:31 a couple of times stopping randomly to see if you can pick up the similarities between the burning bus, and the green horse image.

      When you allow the clip to run from 10:26 – 10:31 you will also see that what looks like the hair of the horse,(which again are the flames) are blowing from right to left. Yet the smoke and the flames from the burning bus are blowing from left to right? Which way do you think that the wind is actually blowing? With the green horse image being inverted, that would be exactly the way you would expect it to look. The opposite of reality, just like looking into a mirror. Again, the image, or reflection, remains motionless until the camera starts to pan to the right, it is only then that it actually starts to move.

      I suspect that if we were shown the complete pan and frames that occurred prior to 10:26 that we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

      Again, I’m sorry if this is confusing, and I hope that this possibly helps.

      Marianne, coffee sounds great! But I expect that the time when that will possible happen, we will know a lot more than whether or not this stupid horse was ever real.🙂

  20. now I don’t feel so bad about this “green horse.” There are other discussions about this on another blog! 🙂

    They either think it is the camera, or they have no clue!

  21. Marianne,

    I some times see things in images others don’t see. I see what you see the smoke is coming toward the camera and so is the horse and rider.

    I look at it this way, maybe God is using this opportunity to tell something to those who have knowledge to understand the meaning? How many would or could see and not perceive?

    I do also know that we live in a world of crazy pranksters. However being obedient should we consider it? Is it maybe announcement by an angel of its arrival?

    I don’t know about everyone else but life has been kicking me in the teeth so to speak. I don’t know very many Christians who aren’t enduring difficulty. But the word says we will be tested, and we shall be as a women in great travail.

    I don’t have a spirit of fear but a longing to go home to Heaven.
    We know that can’t be until certain things take place. We cry out as do the saints under the altars; “is it time”?

    I feel it could be a sign to say hang in there the end is coming?

    All who come to speak of the word and his coming be blessed,

  22. Well Marianne,
    If I was there with you I could easily show you clearly what I am trying to convey. I am sorry that I am unable to articulate it clearly enough for you. I tried and I do apologize for that, because I really don’t think that I can do any better than what I have said above.

    It is just that the way that I see this, (and I want to make it perfectly clear that my following comment is in no way meant to be taken as being a disparaging comment towards our Catholic brothers and sisters that believe in Yeshua), it is no different in getting all excited over something like an image of Mary showing up in some window somewhere.

    I just think that we have the responsibility to be Bereans in not only investigating scripture, but in all things.
    What does this say about the state that we are in, if we are deceived into thinking that a flare, or reflection, is more than it really is? We will be putty in the hands of the Beast, and unfortunately, many will be deceived.

    • Hi Gregg

      I accept that you find a rational explanation for the green image. I just do not follow what you mean. I usually try to logically analyze what I see or read, but in this case I do not see what you are trying to explain. Maybe we should meet over a cup of coffee. 🙂

  23. whole program

  24. OFFICIAL statement regarding video anomaly:

    I do not know WHAT it is.

    Some say it is a reflection of light.

    Others say a spirit.

    It does make us think, whatever it is.

    So let us focus on prayer and seeking God.

    • Yes, and pray for the people that are there including a friend of mine who thought she was going there for vacation no less! I pray she gets out of there soon. I sent her a text but have not heard back from her…

  25. Marianne,

    Here is some information that I think ties into this study.


    The ground that was scorched in Russia was the size of the nation of Portugal. It was reported in April 2010 that the low harvest in Canada, has led to a spike in global wheat prices and could, down the line, result in an increase in the cost of bread worldwide, especially in the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia.
    “There are fears that Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan’s export production could drop by as much as 27 percent for 2010 and 2011,” said Michael Hewson, an analyst at financial derivatives dealer CMC Markets. He added that the drought and wildfires in Russia had “prompted speculative buying” in the wheat market.

    In May and June 2010, Black Sea feed wheat was going for around $190-$200 (144-151 euros) a ton, including cost and freight. That price has now soared to as much as $260. This was before the last fuel price increases hitting the world market in the past few months.

    “Russia’s Hydrometeorological Center said temperatures of 36-42 degrees Celsius (96.8-107.6 Fahrenheit) were reported as having the caused the draught.”
    ** Would this be considered a black horse, the ground was scorched? **

    “On November 18th the United Nations made an announcement that food would rise in cost by 20 percent for 2011 due to poor harvest.”
    The forecast of 2011 is predicting a worse food crisis since 2007/2008. If you will remember riots broke out as more than 25 countries could not meet the needs to feed their people. States and nations have been ask to prepare for this hardship other wise more trouble will ensue do to the hunger.

    “Consumers may have little choice but to pay higher prices for their food. The size of next year’s harvest becomes increasingly critical. For stocks to be replenished and prices to return to more normal levels, large production expansions are needed in 2011?”

    · Prices of wheat, maize and many other foods traded internationally have risen by up to 40% in just a few months
    · Sugar, butter and cassava prices are at 30-year highs, and meat and fish are both significantly more expensive than last year.
    · Thanks to volatile commodity price, prices for coffee, wheat, flour and sugar have been rising in recent months, and are expected to continue rising in 2011
    · World coffee prices are at a 13-year high, according to Nova Scotia Bank. Wheat prices were up 29% year-over-year in October I see that this can be a possible problem. Our water is tainted by the petroleum issue we are confronted with, the clouds go out of the water gather up the water and bring it back and dump it upon the ground, right?

    So what will be the quality of the food? I am guessing; Non eatable do to the chemicals in the Oceans and gulf of Mexico. The thing I don’t understand is why isn’t anyone talking abut this? How much of the food source comes out of the USA today and can our people afford for the food to go up 8 times the amount.

    According to the bible the weights and scales of measure in food and money at the time of writing Revelations till now; the cost for food will be 8 times higher than normal for the same produced items once that seal is opened.

    On top of that we still haven’t heard a word that will point to truth regarding the death of the fish and birds, except it be the water and the PCB levels.

    Is there a reason to be concerned for the children who put this snow in their mouths or the animals. The type of damaged done by PCB isn’t always an effect immediately. Does anyone in the group have any back ground to speak to such.

    For those of you who don’t live in the Midwest or Northeatern part of the country where winter is winter. We have had records this year in our country.

    My son lives in Boston, they had 70 Inches of snow in the last 30 days. I am in St. Louis area we have had record snow fall mixed with ice and snow and more then the normal.

    What part does the current going on for the Brotherhood in Egypt play in the black horse and pale green horse? I feel like they
    are just the beginning of the unraveling. Someone with power is stirring the pot. The word says he who digs a hole for another shall fall in it, he who rolls the stone it shall roll back on him.

    The newly appointed Finance Minister Samir Radwan is firmly committed to the Washington consensus, which has served to impoverish the Egyptian people.

    In a contradictory statement on February 3, Radwan confirmed that “the government won’t reduce subsidies even if global prices of food and commodities rise.

    Public spending will be used as a tool to “achieve social justice,” he told a news conference in Cairo.” (Bloomberg, February 5, 2011)

    Some of these things because they are non believers is kinda like being on autopilot unfortunately.

    Be blessed Pattie

  26. May I jump in to this conversation? On Stan Deyos’ site Millennium Ark, is the same footage, but the header of the news crew was EuroNews, strange as well that they have the same footage, either news agencies share or more than one agency caught the same footage. Angles, lighting, or whatever, if more than one agency has the same clip…..well….there, ??????

  27. Hi Marianne;

    Thanks for bringing to our attention this very unusual occurrence.
    While it is true that this can be explained scientifically, we should
    not be hasty in concluding that this was not deliberated by God to
    serve as a warning for events of great magnitude that are surely now
    I can say with all certainty that this does not pertain to the 4th
    Horseman, but I have good reason to believe that the 1st Horseman
    is about to leave the “stable” ; and how appropriate it would be,
    if Egypt were to open the door. I believe that it may well have!

    Things to consider about the image:
    The image was reflected from a fire, but due to lens inversion
    became an instantly recognizable subject in proportion with it’s
    surroundings, animated by camera movement from a stationary position,
    reflecting an act of violence and destruction..the attributes of
    the 1st Horseman; i.e,conquest/war.

    It happened in Egypt; who are to soon participate in the Psalm 83
    war (against Israel). The peace treaty with Israel, I believe, will
    be rescinded as events unfold in Egypt.

    If God were to have presented us with a perfect representation of
    the horseman, then it would have been perceived as photographic
    trickery. What we see is an inverted reflected image from a blazing
    fire whose representation is instantly recognizable, with a 1:1 ratio.
    The probability of such an occurrence is extremely remote, together
    with the fact that it happened on Israel’s doorstep, for all the
    world to see, makes this appear to be more than just a quirk of
    “luminature” !!

    God bless all

  28. With all due respect trickery of a photo is not the issue here JESUS is coming and the only question and answer is did we do what GOD asked us unnecessary conclusion is fruits of satan to mislead our one true purpose “Winning the world for CHRIST” and living as close as possible to GOD’s image we will be judged not condemned by our fruits and only 1 minute is left. How many souls do we gather for GODx3

  29. *Thought this was most interesting…mentioned by Walid Shoebat during a CBN interview:

    The Book of the Prophet

    The Oracle concerning Egypt
    1 The burden of Egypt. Jer. 46.2-26 · Ezek. 29.1–32.32
    ¶ Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
    2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
    3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.
    4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts….

    *Walid shoebat discusses the significance of what is going on in Egypt…the what, who, why and how…in the below video

  30. i believe that the pale or Chloros horse is Islam. green is the color of Islam. What we are seeing in Egypt is the opening of the fourth seal. I say this not because of the video above, But rather because Islam is the religion of “death”. Its name is death” Rev 6:8. It will be given authority over a fouth of the earth. Current population numbers back this up. It will kill with sword, famine pestilence, wild beasts (insane people)
    If this is true, then the other horsemen (seals 1-3) are already amongst us. This revolutionary form of Islam will spread across a fourth of the earth. White horse =catholocism, red horse =communism, Black horse = protestantism?? each controls a fourth of the earth.
    looking forward to some comments.

    • Hi dru,

      I posted the above chapter and verses from Isaiah 19 because it describes exactly what has just happened in Egypt…

      And I do disagree with your interpretation.

      • Lyndsey
        I do not disagree with you on the relavence of Isaiah 19 to current events. Note verse 3 says “they will inquire of idols and the sorcerers and the mediums and necromancers.”(ESV) Necromancers are lovers or worshipers of death. Islam is the only religion that venerates death (suicide bombers). The “chloros horse” of revalation refers to the larger movement which is Islamism. A kingdom or union of islamic nations. What’s happening in Egypt is the start of this movement. Remember, the Chloros horsemens name was death.
        I put question marks by the black horse because I am unsure what this one is. I put this theory out there to see what you all think of it. If you disagree, why? and on what points? My heart is not set on this interpretation, and would like to know more about this. for example, who or what do the horsemen refer to?

        • I will look into it…I remember someone saying that G-d is very simple…and because of this, that we should take a more simplistic view when trying to interpret what He has written….so with this in mind, I will go back over the 7 seals to see what I come up with….simply speaking…LOL

          But I will say regarding your interpretation of the “wild beasts” being “crazy people”…I honestly have to give that one a NO….if only due to simplicity.

          I believe G-d means just what He says in that verse…”wild beasts”….and if He meant “crazy people” He would have said that…or at least made reference to the fact they would be human..or humans without a sound mind….or given them over to a depraved mine etc….just my opinion…would love to have the original translation..

          • Lindsey
            Regarding wild beasts as crazy people, i am merely extrapolating from what is in the bible.
            1.The beast of revalation is a man is he not, or will people be worshipping a wild animal?
            2. Ishmael was refered to as a wild donkey?
            3. Daniel 5:21 refers to King Nebuchadnezzar saying “…His mind was made like that of a wild beast, and his dwelling was with wild donkeys.”(ESV)
            4. Paul writes in I corinthians15:32 “I fought with beasts at Ephesus.” Was the city having a problem with wild beasts, or was he referring to a raging crowd of people?
            Much like what you said before, I would like to see the original language used for Rev.6:7-8 in order to see if this is a metaphorical wild beasts or actual wild beasts.

            • lindsey
              see also acts 19 with regards to quote in icorinthians. No mention of wild animals?

              • Ezekiel 14:12-21

                • Lindsey
                  I see your point with regard to the passage in ezekial, but this term is also used metaphorically elsewhere in the Bible to describe a raging crowd, or a person either possesed or enraged.
                  The question we should be asking is what does this term refer to in revalation? I don’t see it likely in modern days that wild animals will kill in large numbers with AK47’s pointed at them. Perhaps this will be some sort of supernatural occurence, however this seems highly unlikely.

                  • Rev 6:8 parallels/repeats what G-d says in Ezekiel 14:12-21

                    I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

                    “wild beasts OF the earth”= I believe this is literal translation as opposed to metaphorical…at least for this particular verse

                    • Lindsey
                      I will respectfully disagree with you on the wild beasts. ps how do you get rid of this awefully narroow column. I will leave a longer reply at bottom

  31. To those who are muslims, Islam is the religion that venerates death with the promise of eternal reward. Revalation 6:8 says the riders “…name was death and hades follows him.” The only reward for this death is Hades.

  32. Jesus said “fear not, I am the first and last, and the living one, I died and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and Hades. Rev 1:17b-18

  33. Dru,

    I would like to throw you a curve those that love dead bodies is a form of witchcraft.

    See this information found in the:

    “Father I put the blood covering of Jesus Christ over all God fearing Christians who read this information. Please cover us that we may understand the word and that we be covered in that understanding and all evil be contained with in the space as a vessel with chains and fedders upon it locking it down so it can not escape. In the Name of Jesus Christ I ask and pray. Thank you for your blessings and answering and delivering.

    “Mythica Encyclopedia”
    Chapter six – Witchcraft in Isolated Societies
    by Ilil Arbel, Ph.D.
    In many isolated societies, the belief in Witchcraft has never died. The witches don’t hide their activities, and live as important members of the society. This happens in the Maori societies of New Zealand, the Barotse of Africa, and the Quiche of Guatemala. Among the people of the Marquesas Islands, witches are respected, but feared as well.
    All of these societies believe that magic is neutral. The witches can heal or curse, depending on their character. Necromancy is widely spread, and the witches operate mostly at night.
    Spells and incantations have particular power when the witch uses parts of the patient’s (or victim’s) body. Nail parings and hair are the best. If not available, the witch can use clothes that have been worn by the person. The strongest magical potions are produced from extremely unpleasant ingredients. The witch cooks the brains of dead babies, menstrual blood, bits of human bones, pieces of gravestones, powdered frogs and toads, and bats’ blood.

    So now based on this information who and what are we dealing with, according to all you read about the new world order. Is it a thing called the illuminati? According to people who have defected and found God they claim they are all witches, and that they control all of the wealth of the world. However I know that isn’t true because God is the one who sets down and sets up.

    Everything you read says witchcraft is on the rise even young kids in schools are finding
    out from friends about operating in witchcraft. These are sad times are we are living in, but unfortunately we must arm ourselves with knowledge because God said we perish without it. But I don’t mean reading it to learn as I think there are demons in everything
    they do unless you ask God to provide protection over you as I have done here. We want understanding of what we are dealing with but not learning of their ways as God told the children of Israel not to learn the ways of those they went into a nation to live with.

    Dru you should further understand regarding your comment about the catholic faith that in this encyclopedia they speak of how the church lets them practice their faith. In
    Guatemala for example they let them sacrifice in the church, they have a sacrificing area next to each row where they sacrifice and kill their animals right inside the church when a friend inquired to ask them why? The priest basically said according to my understanding they know it was pagan but them showing up to church is better then nothing.

    Also I understand that the Catholic church in South America is implementing sacrifices by the priest, and may already by now be in practice. I was given that information during last summer.

    God bless pattie

  34. Further review regarding pale green. Witches are shown as being green because they try killing people by destroying their livers and because there livers are destroyed from the evil they do signifying they are dying from jaundice. So it is diffinately the
    sick green.

    There are so many things of evil on the rise trying to report it self as good that one must watch everything they do praying always in the spirit as the word says.

    I received an email today about something called the glory light of God? How many know there is nothing new under the sun with God. If we receive revelations and they don’t agree with the word turn a death ear to them. The email information was very odd and I forwarded to Marianne for review. Some of you may have seen this information on one of the religious stations or received an email. I will let Marianne provide her comments on it as we are living in a time of poisoning if we get turned to itching ears.

    The word says 1 Timothy 4

    Some will abandon the faith because they have itching ears, here is a synopsis for our time in the word!

    4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shaltr be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
    4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
    4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
    4:11 These things command and teach.
    4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
    4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
    4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that they profiting may appear to all.
    4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save theyself, and them that hear thee.

    God bless in all your ways get understanding,

  35. Well after reading all of the information again, I decided finding the musslim faith response to witchcraft practices. Based on things Dru pointed out really peaked my interest.
    Here is the response.

    Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we ask you to protect us in the reading and study Regarding the pale grisled horseman, please put fetters and chains upon these word and any demonic forces of them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    What does the Musslims belief say regarding witchcraft?

    Learning witchcraft and practising it constitute kufr. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
    “They followed what the Shayaateen (devils) gave out (falsely of the magic) in the lifetime of Sulaymaan (Solomon). Sulaymaan did not disbelieve, but the Shayaateen (devils) disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down at Babylon to the two angels, Haaroot and Maaroot, but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us).’”
    [al-Baqarah 2:102]
    A practitioner of witchcraft may do something that makes him an apostate, so he commits kufr and should be executed for his apostasy. Or he may practise witchcraft by doing something that does not constitute kufr. In that case there is a difference of scholarly opinion, but the correct view is that he should also be executed if it is proven that he is a practitioner of witchcraft.

  36. Another update: Hiduism

    Well the hindu faith does something called soaking your soul away?

    According to Pat Holiday, many Christians and main line churchs are moving to mystical and hindu new age practices?

    I wonder how many have lost their minds? I am shocked more and more
    Every day. I surely live in my own bubble I had know idea.

    2 Timothy 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears’ 4 And they shall turn awy their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    The new age movement based on this information says these faiths who are changing and taking instruction from the hindus are ok? I don’t know if that means that hindu has always been a religion of pagan witchcraft from the beginning and visa versa? So they have a photo of the Witch of endor on the site so I guess that means this group flows with the craft. So how much of the world population is hindu, new world order, witchcraft?

    I sure would like to know who are the churches who are turning to this madness? Does anyone have input on this?

    I am sick from reading and learning some of the things we have learned in the study of the Horsemen.

    God bless all true believers who know that the redeemer is coming back for us not a witch or a snake God, or a stone and a box.

  37. That is interesting what Lyndsey said about Isaish 19 because I had an Egyptian at work who is a coptic Christian tell me to read Isaish 19.

  38. Pattie
    Necromancer the word comes from the greek, necro being dead body, and mancer being prophesy or divination. It refered to people that would try to bring back the dead spirits to learn of future events. The return of the twelvth Imam is a form of necromancy. It is the belief that the twelvth Imam who was thrown down into a well inthe ninth century is coming back to rulethe Islamic world.
    With regards to the various statements on witchcraft etc. read the book Occult Invasion by Dave Hunt. This one book explains what is happening in the churches to destroy them from within. If there is one book other than the bible which all christians should read, this is the one.

  39. Lindsey
    As I said previously, I must disagree with you on this interpretation of wild beasts. As with regard to the book of Revalations, I believe that it has been misinterpreted for many years by the Church. We as Christians often defer to authorities in our religious life to base our interpretations on. I also believe that it has been “locked up” until the current generations. I say this with respect toward scholars that have been studying it for years. I always listen and consider all their opinions, but the fact that such a vast array of interpretations exists gives me pause. For example, I have heard that “babylon the great” is everything from America to a literal regenesis of the babylon of old, I even read on one of the posts in here that it was Jerusalem?
    In my opinion, the biggest mistake we Christians make in approaching Bible prophecy, is that we fail to take into account all our assumptions and biases. For example, If you are raised in Seventh Day Adventist background your interpretations will lean toward that churches beliefs. This is not to say that the Adventists do not have something important to say with regards to Revalation, But rather their denominational beliefs influence their interpretation. For me, I was brought up in the Protestant traditions, therefore It is difficult to see Protestantism in a negative light. Hearing the Adventists talk of this openned my eyes to the possibility of them not being “on the right side of history (or prophecy).” Although not totally convinced of protestantism role in prophecy, I do see that the protestant churches are compromising on their beliefs and moving farther and farther from True Christianity. (Not all but some)
    The interpretation of wild beasts, seems inconsequential to the interpretation of the fourth horsemen. Perhaps they will have lions dens like in Daniels times? I also do not think this changes my opinion on the fourth seal.
    In other words, your point is respectfully taken with regard to the wild beasts, But my questions with regard to seals and in particular the four horsemen are the ones I am looking for honest debate on.

  40. Dru,

    Sorry I have been out of the loop, issues have made me unavailable to your comments.

    I am not certain about some of your comments; these scriptures are the most difficult for the best Biblical scholars and believers.

    I will say this I believe that the white horse is the antichrist; it says he comes conquering and has a bow and a crown on his head.

    The red horse I think is communism, I think after things that are coming out every day we may find ourselves as the children of Israel in the days of old. In other words being slaves.

    (It scares me to find out that the Chinese are building cities to house people for whom the people there don’t exist?)

    So to me the white horse and the red horse are with us and have been but we are moving faster now to the end of time and if we understand not what the word has brought in secret we can perish and be taken into false religions and trusting that someone who is not Christ as being Christ.

    This is the time spoken of where there will be a great falling away, right? I am guessing maybe it is going to get worse as the wars go on in heaven.

    If you remember God said he was going to judge Egypt for what he did to his people, see Genesis 14:15 “God determined to judge Egypt for oppressing his people; and though in part it was fulfilled in the old testament with the plagues and with the death of Pharaoh, the old score wasn’t fully settled.
    Revelations itself lets it be known, the great enemy of the gospel-church of God, his Bride and the lamb. We are dealing with 2 different prophesies in this chapter relating to Egypt, the place of majic! The destruction of the representing party and city, the prophet/ministers of today should be praying for the loss and love of mankind for what is coming. In Job 41:31 I am taken with the words that he makes the pot like leviathan to boil in the deep? When Pharaoh engaged in unnecessary war with the Syrians he came forth with his armies and fouled the rivers and made them muddy. God said they are no greater than the beast of the prey.
    Ahab with Jezebel troubled Elijah and all of Gods prophets killing them and causing grief for Israel.

    The green horse being Islam I question unless you say it includes other non-believing faiths. Be sure you understand also that there are two different forms of Muslims. You have the Sunni and the Shia groups.

    The Iranian group has a desire to take over oil and if it can triple it’s cost by in 2011. He also wants the bomb for the same purpose. So I think he could open the door but the real green horse I think is body defilement and pestilence that cause animals to have no food and bring on starvation.

    The body will turn green before it turns black from starvation if brought on by a bomb or poisoned waters that causes poisoning that destroy all living things. The grass and the young tender shoots are yellow green but when they are destroyed with material of a bomb or maybe even what BP has done to the waters of our nation and other parts of the world? They seem more likely to be the culprit of the anti-christ being able to band people together and take them to the gas chambers.

    I am not certain that it isn’t the H-boom. Green signifies bodily defilement, pestilence, sickness that destroys the immune system. Part of the immune system is the liver, thyroid, bone marrow, hypothalamus gland, kidneys and the lymph system. When anyone has a disease of this type and start to die people say oh he/she look green.

    The Hindu info on the Internet looking only at the index info refers to the “Eagle snake scorpion” (flying snake, I think). They also practice using Kundalina which is the backbone they call it the religion of the snake or the sacred 4 animals from Elijah, (I am guessing they mean the wheel with in the wheel which was to refer to Gods vehicle)? They also say the things they recite with it is quaballa or the book of Solomon, which is receipts of witchcraft. (What ever you do don’t confuse the book of the Jewish sages called Kabala with their book, they are not one in the same) Any Jewish Rabbi will tell you Solomon had no such book nor authored any such book if he had the sages of Judaism would know. These are lies of those who worship the religions of Beal. The time of the flying snake scorpion equates to all water plants (and their death, I think).
    They say that this time is also called the cup and cross of suffering and wine for those of the triplicity? (Those believing in God, the birth of Jesus Christ our Lord and the Holy ghost our comforter.) Oh yeah they also say they worship samel, beelzebub and isis? I don’t know if there are others but they quote the name of others in the index.

    They also quote a time period after this as being the Angel last judgment involving wands, kings and knights and Vulcan (patron deity of Alchemy) and Pluto.

    It would seem to me that majic is going to get used by the fallen ones, and it is already going on. It that has to do with the book you are talking about I is not sure.

    The good ness regarding their junk if they could kill Gods true believers I would be dead
    I have so many scars on my body from their fiery darts they call them the fiery arrows from their bow.

    They come with the desire to break the hedge. But God said he who rolls the stone it shall be rolled back upon him, he who breaks the hedge shall be bit by it, he who digs a hole he shall fall in it. (I feel go is speaking of this type of nonsense)

    I was surprise that all of the faith worshiping the fallen angels and calling them deities have some formalized religion.

    Most of them have something in common they worship idols and gods and goddess of the Greeks. When you put the entire idol worshiping faiths together, what percentage of the population is it? My read said that less than 30 percent of the population is true believers and about 16 percent don’t believe in anything. The more I look at it the more I believe they will all be drinking the Kool-Aid together which is a said thing to say.

    You said to look at the issues of witchcraft upon religion look at the occult book. Are we in agreement that the issues concerning and involving antichrist is a one world government and an economic worldly system.

    If so why wouldn’t we look at the religious part of the issue? I think they have to take faith before they can capture the people and take away their complete government rights but then communism may prove that wrong? Look at the sad mistakes made by the people running our country but when you invite the snake into your bed and it is frozen it will thaw and when it does and its skin is peeled away it will bite? You play with fire you are going to get bit, right?

    Isaiah speaks of the flying fiery snake? That is hinduism. Read up on the liver, the kundalina which is the worship of the snake religion. Do you know the Hindu claim to be taking over many of the charismatic religions, 85 % of the Muslims have no issue with their faith and bringing it together, the witches have already joined?


    • Pattie
      I am unsure where india and more specifically hinduism fits into the four horsemen. It seems to me they would be more likely to be in with the red horse since their government is more socialistic. As for Hinduism it is the only major religion left that is pantheistic. All the other horsemen are monotheistic or atheistic.
      I have a feeling it will soon be rolled into the red horse, and perhaps parts of it into the green horse.
      As for the timeline of revalation, i believe the sixth seal marks the start of the great tribulation. The fifth seal is the time of persecution of Christian. Read Luke 8:9-15 the parable of the sower. It is a time of testing for those who claim to be Christian.
      compare that with the fifth seal in revalation and revalation 12:17. These all describe this fifth seal or time of testing of the saints. Note that the first beast does not appear until after this time(rev 13:1) this beast is the antichrist.
      Imagine if you are writing a story about multiple people, and their lives intersect at some catostrophic moment. Lets say up until that moment they had never met. You would first write about “Bob” and continue his story to that catostrophic moment. Then you would write about “Susie” and her story leadin gup to that catastrophic moment. Putting a time frame on when susie did one thing in comparison to when Bob did another is next to impossible unless they give you time references. This is how revalation is written. The seals are one story leading to the “day of the Lord”, while the trumpets are another story leading to the “day of the Lord” while the story of the antichrist(beast) is another story etc. they all lead to the “day of the Lord” as do other prophecies in the bible, but their relation to on another before that great event is often confusing.
      I believe that John (or God) put the seals first because they are the long view of the future to him (history to us). That is why I say we are in the time of the fulfillment of the fourth seal, and therefore the first seal cannot be the antichrist. The time of the testing of the saints will also be coming quickly.
      Asfor the tribulation, ihave heard it as being seven years and being three and half years. I believe that it the “great tribulation” is the final three and a half years of the seven year tribulation. The beast who is in hiding will make peace with Israel and begin attacking Christians (5th seal, Rev12:17)
      Note the last part of verse 17 “…and he stood on the sand of the sea.” This, in my opinion, is refering to the weak foundation that he will stand on in his persecution, denying the existence of God, later he will give his authority to the beast which will have a foundation of a false religion at its base. it will not deny God but will pervert the manefestations thereof. (think about how the evolutionary theories are falling apart in the face of mounting scientific evidence of a designer in creation.)

    • I believe that the pestilence or illness use will be biological weapons of one sort or another. They have been used in Muslim countries in recent decades, and they show no concern in using them again.

  41. Hey Dru,

    Below is a summary of the seals and trying to figure out what each word means so as to get an idea of what G-d is talking about….Seal 1: I would believe is clearly talking about an individual in that a “crown” is given which means authority/leadership etc…if it was a “kingdom” being given authority I believe it would have read “mountain”…usually mountains = kingdoms. And notice only a “bow” is given…no “arrows”.

    Revelation 6

    1st Seal:

    2: And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    -white horse
    -crown = leadership/authority
    -conquer (mentioned 2x)

    2nd Seal:
    4: And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    -red horse
    -power given to the rider to take peace
    -they should kill each other
    -great sword given (to whom-the rider?)

    *sword =Islam?

    3rd Seal:
    And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
    6: And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    -Black horse
    -rider holds a pair of balances
    -wheat/barley for a penny = economy?
    -do not hurt oil/wine

    *economy/depression/devaluing of the dollar?

    4th Seal:

    behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    -Pale horse
    -name of rider (s) = Death/Hell (hell follows with)
    -Power given to death/hell over a 1/4 of the earth
    -Power given to kill with sword/hunger/death/beasts

    *sword could be Islam?

    5th Seal:

    ..when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their bethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    *Sounds like the 5th seal is the martydom of the saints that have been killed from the beginning of time and endured seals 1-4 and that more saints are to be killed before the rapture which should take place between seal 5 and seal 6?

    6th Seal:

    when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    *Sounds like the 6th seal begins the wrath
    *mention of the fig tree (Israel) and “casteth untimely figs…shaken by a mighty wind” Perhaps this is when Israel flees to Judea??
    *Saints are not here for this and so we should have been taken before the opening of the 6th seal?
    *years 2014/2015 there are solar/lunar eclipses on each Jewish Feast day, 2 years in a row

  42. The 4th horse is green not pail. The Greek word translated to English is chloros look it up.

    • hi Neil

      I agree about the green. I mention this in the post. It certainly brings more meaning to see the horse this way, especially since green has certain modern symbolisms now.

  43. Irvin Baxter is founder and president of Endtime Ministries, host of End of the Age television broadcast, publisher of Endtime Magazine and host of Politics and Religion radio…check it out for more teachings and confirmations to this topic.

  44. For those who wold like an in-depth explanation regarding what/who the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” are, the following link offers a complete explanation from a Biblical perspective:

    Unsealed: A Closer Look At Revelation 6 And ‘The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse’

    • ICA

      Very interesting viewpoint. I had considered the green horse as Islam, but not all horses up to now.

    • Hi ICA,

      I just had the opportunity, (via the link that you have posted above), to read your theory regarding Islam and the Seals.
      Commendable and thought provoking however, where would the following come into play?

      Did Muhammad ever suffer a “fatal head wound” and live so that the whole world was amazed at this happening?
      Rev. 13:3.;
      “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.”

      Did Mohammed only continue or prepare for 42 months? It is my understanding that Muhammad was a considered to be a prophet for 23 years.
      Rev. 13:5.;
      “And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.”

      I do personally believe that Islam is far more credible as having something come from it and be the AC than that of the Roman Catholic Church, but I still think that everything after Revelation 4:1. has not happened as of yet, but that your theory could very well be a foreshadowing of what is to come.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Glorious KING of kings.

      • Gregg, Ica
        Though I have considered this theory before, and it is viable as Islam now controls a quarter of the world’s populations, I see the breaking of the seals as the removal of the protection that the church has had from these riders. In other words, though I see an early beginning with these riders, I see a culmination which is to come that affects the church. That being the quarter of the population that is Christian.

        My understanding of the seals comes from their parallel to the book of Job. The church being the Job figure. (Gregg, you remember the “Hedge” comparison to the root of the word seal in revelation that I had requested you do at one point.) Job being deemed righteous, we, the church imputed righteousness. when the Hedge was removed, Job lost his kids, wife, wealth, prestige, lost his health,he was accused by friends and persecuted, Then the Lord came in a cloud, and job reached repentance.

        God bless.

  45. alienated again, “Did Muhammad ever suffer a ‘fatal head wound’ and live so that the whole world was amazed at this happening?”

    Hi “alienated again”, in a sense, yes … but not the man himself. We need to keep in mind that Israel/Jerusalem/the Middle East is the epicenter of Scripture and prophecy. Not Rome, not the United States, not the European Union, nor anywhere else. In Revelation 13 there are two Beasts described, and the first Beast here with ‘seven heads’ are all kingdoms or empires (cf. Rev 17:9-10) that ruled Israel/Jerusalem/the Middle East and persecuted the people of God. The first six ‘heads’ are:

    1. The Egyptian Empire
    2. The Assyrian Empire
    3. The Babylonian Empire
    4. The Persian Empire
    5. The Greek Empire
    6. The Roman Empire

    Now, the 7th is not a revival of the 6th – the Roman Empire — as some try to suggest in certain prophecy circles, rather it is the empire of Antichrist that is a revival of the 7th. The 7th empire was The Islamic/Ottoman Empire which came to an end in 1924 with the abolition of the Caliphate. The Islamic Empire is right now as we speak being revived in the Middle East. It’s mortal “head wound” is being healed (the wound is not the wound of a physical head, the ‘head’ is an empire).

    • Ica
      I would agree that the seventh is the eighth, and that is why I have ruled out rome. The only two viable options are Islam, and the U.S. The Son of perdition exemplified is Judas, thus using this analogy the nation would have to seem a friend of Israel, and then betray them and lead them to destruction. Of these two, Only the U.S has been in the position of an ally. If anything is true Islam has always persecuted the nation since its arrival in 1947 as a nation again. Thus they have never been in the position to betray Israel, or for that matter, the church.

      Our current president is in that position, and is not only leading this country to destruction, but will betray the nation of Israel, thus allowing the dragon, who I see as Islam to persue the woman Israel.

      God bless

    • i agree

    • Hi ICA,

      Please forgive me, however I am a little pressed for time today.
      I will attempt to post a response for you tomorrow, (Sunday afternoon), if you could check back here then.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua.


  46. Hi ICA,

    I am sorry that I wasn’t able to respond to you yesterday as planned, but here are my views.

    I do understand, that since the “dragon with the seven heads” in Rev.13 is described symbolically, that the “fatal head wound” could also possibly be symbolic as well in respects to it representing that of an Empire, rather than a specific individual.
    And that the Greek text of Rev.13:4., where it has been translated into the English, “and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” could have very easily been rendered as, “And they worshipped the beast, saying, “Who/What is like the beast? Who/What has the power and is able to make war with “them”?

    However, where I have difficulty in accepting that anything after Revelation 4:1., has taken place, is because of the results of my personal studies and what my understanding of Scripture actually states. If you would please indulge me by reading the following then perhaps it would more clearly describe my interpretation and that of my beliefs.

    First as you are well aware, the book of Revelation is unique. Whereas most of New Covenant Scripture consists of teaching, Revelation predominately consists of a man, (John), recording the “visions” that he was witnessing. This then leaves the reader at the same disadvantage as that of John, in that I don’t believe that John fully understood much of what he was watching either.
    I also personally believe that these recordings made it difficult for the translators, because within say the Gospels and the epistle’s the translators could utilize the surrounding text to assist them and formulate what is being said. However, in translating “visions” themselves, they more or less had to record them verbatim.

    As well there is another thing that we have to consider, the translators would have accomplished their task based upon whatever was the their preconceived bias or ideology, and have it conform to what was the prevailing theology of the day.

    For example; If their bias and the theology of the day consisted of there only being “one” gathering or rapture, then the transliterated ““houtos prōtos anastasis”, that was then translated into the English “This [is] the first resurrection”, within Revelation 20:5. would have been translated correctly within their understanding of events.

    However, if their bias and the theology of the day consisted of there being “multiple” gatherings or raptures, then that same transliterated ““houtos prōtos anastasis”, would have then been translated as, “These [are] the first resurrections”. For both translations would be linguistically correct, and either translation would be legitimate based upon the Greek.

    Then there is the format itself of the Book of Revelation.
    The Introduction and Benediction. The Greetings to the Seven Churches. The Appearing of Yeshua and His Epistle’s to the Seven Churches, which consist of Warnings and that of Reward and Consequence. And THEN the Revelation.

    Now clearly “today” the Churches are still here, present and active.
    And there is a verse within 1 Peter that I happen to find particularly intriguing. And that would be 1 Peter 4:17.

    “For the time [is come] that judgment “must begin” at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

    The above explicitly states “that a judgement must begin with the house of God first”.
    The translated “house” above being derived from the transliterated “oikos”, (which within the context of the verse is clearly describing that of the “Christian Church), and with the translated “must begin” being derived from the transliterated “archomai”, which is defined by Strong’s as, “to be the first to do (anything), to begin”. And if indeed a judgement is to be made, (the transliterated “krima”, the sentence of a judge, (Yeshua), where condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes upon the faults of others”), then there must also be rewards and consequences regarding that judgement.

    Then there is also a statement made by Yeshua in Matthew 20:16.;

    “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”

    Now the “last” above does not necessarily mean it is to be understood as being the “last” within say that of sequence, (though it very well could if God the Father was to pour out His Spirit just before the Church Age were to end), however the “last” could also be referring to that of being a “servant” and one that serves “others”.
    Which as you know is a theme that Yeshua states often as being a requirement to be considered His disciple.

    Then there is also Matthew 7:21-23.;
    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    With “iniquity” above being derived from the transliterated “anomia”, which is defined as being that of “a condition of being without law, or lawlessness”.

    So, “entering into the kingdom of heaven” is therefore conditional then, and “law itself” would correlate to “doing the will of the Father”.
    Therefore understanding what it is that is “the will of the Father” is paramount for us as Yeshua’s followers to be His disciple.
    And I believe that Scripture provides more than sufficient evidence, that to be considered Yeshua’s disciple, “we are to serve others in brotherly love”.

    So lets look at the epistles to the Seven Churches within Revelation.
    Was the number “Seven” picked arbitrarily or does it refer to the “completeness of the Church as a whole” from its inception with the giving of the Holy Spirit on Shavu’ot, to whenever the Church Age itself comes to fruition?

    In Revelation 1:20., Yeshua describes the “seven lampstands” or “a Menorah” as being the Seven Churches. Which I believe suggests that of the whole Body itself, with He being in the midst, (or middle) as the “Shamash”, or central shaft.

    Yeshua then speaks to the Churches.
    To the Church of Ephesus He initially commends them, yet does also say that “they have left their first love”.

    The translated “because thou hast left thy first love” in Revelation 2:4., is the transliterated Greek , “hoti aphiēmi sou prōtos agapē” which could have very easily been translated as, “because you have departed from the principle of good will, and brotherly love”.

    And Revelation 2:5.;
    “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will “REMOVE THY CANDLESTICK” out of his place, except thou repent.”

    The above “remove they candlestick” brings to my mind that of “John 15:1-12.” and that the above “first love” would also be that “of demonstrating good will, and brotherly love” to others.

    “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, HE IS CAST FORTH AS A BRANCH, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. “THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT, THAT YE LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AS I HAVE LOVED YOU”.”

    As the epistles in Revelation continue, we can clearly see that each Church is commended or chastised, and provided therein with what the criteria consists of to either be recipients of reward or punishment.

    To Ephesus the consequence being, that Yeshua will come, (“erchomai”, appear, make one’s appearance, arriving and of those returning), quickly to remove “the branch” from its place, (or “topos”, which within its definitions is defined as “a place within a book”) or from the Menorah.
    Its rewards for those that “overcome”, being able to eat from “The tree of Life”.

    To Smyrna though unique in being not chastised at all, but are rather commended, they will nonetheless suffer for their Faith. But are told that if they remain faithful unto death, they will receive as a reward, “the crown of life”. And that anyone that overcomes will not be hurt, (“adikeō”, considered to be a criminal, or to have violated the laws in some way), by the second death. (The individuals of Smyrna could possibly represent all of our brothers and sisters since the inception of the Church that have chosen to be martyred for Yeshua, rather than denounce Him as their Lord and Savior.)

    Through Pergamos, Thyatira, and that of Sardis, the Churches are provided with warnings and with what the criteria consists of to either be recipients of reward or that of punishment. (These first Churches total in number to “five” (5). Which I see as correlating to Matthew 25:1-13., and the parable of the Ten Virgins.)

    For in Revelation 3:5., I see that verse as being the culmination of the judgement that Peter describes will take place within 1 Peter 4:17., for we are now left with two (2) distinctly separate groups, where one is to receive “reward”, (those from all of the 5 previously mentioned Churches combined that have “overcome”, or that of Philadelphia), and where the other is to receive “punishment”, (or those from all of the 5 previously mentioned Churches combined that “did not overcome”, or that of Laodicea).

    Revelation 3:5., would be applicable to every individual from the whole of the Church that had proven themselves to be “overcomers”, and it states;

    “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

    Therefore these individuals would be proclaimed and judged to be “accounted worthy” for this resurrection. (Luke 20:35., Luke 21:36.)

    Therefore conversely then, all of those who had NOT overcome and have NOT being judged as being the “accounted worthy”, are NOT clothed in white raiment, BUT HAVE NOW BEEN BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE!

    I believe that those that fall into the category of the Church of Philadelphia are a “remnant” of the Church as a whole, and will escape, (having proven themselves faithful), the “trial and testing” period that will be released upon the whole world. (Revelation 3:10.)

    And I also believe that those that are left and fall into the category of the Church of Laodicea, represent those that have “fallen away” and have committed “apostasia”.

    This to me explains why it is that we don’t see the word “ekklēsia”, or Church mentioned after Rev. 3:22. Or why the “door” that is mentioned in Matthew 25:10., John 10:7 & 9 Revelation 3:8 & 20., also disappears from the text after Revelation 4:1.

    Therefore, this is why I have difficulty in accepting that any Seal has been opened as of yet.
    That Revelation 4:1. and the first, “gathering or rapture” is the catalyst per se, prior to any Seal being opened.
    However, as I have stated your theory does have merit as being a “foreshadowing or leading up to” what will be revealed.

    I believe that if you were to consider the above and compare it to what Paul says within 2 Thessalonians 2, it would bring light as to what Paul is actually saying.

    (1 & 2) “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

    Above Paul is referring to the “gathering together” or “episynagōgē”, (a gathering together in one place of an assembly, or “ekklēsia”, Church), upon Yeshua’s arrival and return, “parousia”, (coming, arrival and time of judgement).

    (3) “Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

    (Clearly the Thessalonians had received a false and counterfeit epistle, stating that the “resurrection” had already taken place, hence the requirement for Paul to reassure them here. This premise can be confirmed by how Paul closed this epistle in 2 Thessalonians 3:17.
    “The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.”
    By stating the above Paul was assuring them that this was indeed from him, rather than being from an imposter.)

    Yet what Paul says is not, “for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” but it could very well have been translated from the Greek as ….
    “Let no one beguile you or deceive you by any manner, because unless a “falling away”, (or departure from the faith), comes first, “then indeed” that man of sin is revealed, being the son of destruction;

    The English “falling away” or the transliterated “apostasia” is very interesting for it is derived from the root word “apostasion”, which means, “a bill of divorce, and repudiation, which is rejecting or disowning.”

    Continuing on to verse 2:7.;

    (7) “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.”

    Now this verse to me is what establishes merit and credibility to what you have provided within your study, but that is a leading up to, or is a foreshadowing of what is to come. For from the Greek this verse could have been rendered as;

    “For the secret mystery of violating the law, is already at work and is operating, but at this moment of time is held back and restrained from its course of progress until it comes to pass that they are taken from amongst the midst.”

    The above would then make sense to that of sequence regarding verse 8.

    (8) “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:“

    “And then at that time, what has been veiled and hidden will be revealed. A wicked violator of the law, that the Lord will consume and destroy with the Spirit of His mouth as like the edge of a sword. And He will deprive of force, influence, and power and put an end to this wickedness when He appears in the brightness of His coming.”

    Any way’s, this is how I understand what will occur in the future. That nothing after 4:1. has occurred as of yet, and that a remnant of the Church will be taken first, which will be the beginning for the next stage to commence, and that the rest will have to earn their way by being subjected to the “trial and testing period of the Tribulation”. Those that are victorious having gone through the Tribulation are then “gathered, caught up, or raptured” and are described within Revelation 7:9-17.

    Sorry that this is so long, but thank you if you were able to read it in its entirety.
    Emphasis regarding Scripture translation was obviously mine, but you are more that welcome to verify the translations themselves.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach our Glorious KING of kings.

  47. Hi alienated, thank you for taking to time to reply in full. I have read it in its entirely, and have a few points of my own that I would like to suggest, for your consideration.

    alienated, “if their bias and the theology of the day consisted of there being ‘multiple’ gatherings or raptures, then that same transliterated ‘houtos prōtos anastasis’, would have then been translated as, ‘These [are] the first resurrections’. For both translations would be linguistically correct, and either translation would be legitimate based upon the Greek.”

    Not necessarily. We find ourselves reading in black and white in our receptor language, however the Greek was often much more specific. It was like reading in living color. In Revelation 20:5, for instance, the Greek text does not allow for muliple “prōtos” resurrections, only one “first” (in time, rank, place) resurrection (“anastasis”, singular). If the English translation had been rendered any other way it would have been textually and gramatically incorrect, according to the original text.

    alienated, “I believe that those that fall into the category of the Church of Philadelphia are a ‘remnant’ of the Church as a whole, and will escape, (having proven themselves faithful), the ‘trial and testing’ period that will be released upon the whole world. (Revelation 3:10.)”

    There is nothing in the original text suggesting to me that the escape is physical, even though some of the translations of our receptor language one may be able to read that meaning into it. “But is that what it is really saying? There seems to be a volume of Scripture such as Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 that would clearly indicate that believers are going to experience the testing during the Great Tribulation of Antichrist. In the Greek ‘will keep you from’ is TEREO EK. TEREO means to ‘watch over protectively, guard’ and with the preposition EK it carries the idea of being guarded or protected and rescued out from the midst of danger. If the idea of keeping one from entering were intended the preposition APO would have been used. So it is the idea of deliverance out from within rather than an external deliverance.” (Read more). The protection is in the midst of or during the trial (spiritual — we will not be deceived during the testing), and not a physical removal from the earth.

    alienated, “This to me explains why it is that we don’t see the word ‘ekklēsia’, or Church mentioned after Rev. 3:22.”

    We need to remember that the word “church” (ekklesia) is not mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, Galatians, Ephesians, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John either, and not until the 16th chapter of Romans, so if the events described by John in Revelation doesn’t apply to the church because the word “church” isn’t used after 3:22 then using that logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn’t apply to the church either.

    We find the words “saints” and “tribulation” in Scripture, but nowhere do we ever read about “tribulation saints”. These two words are never found side by side. The word “saint” or “saints”, however, is used 59 times in the New Testament, referring to believers in Christ (ie, the Church). This term is used repeatedly throughout the various books of the New Testament, including Revelation. For instance, Christians are directly mentioned in Revelation 14:12, saying “Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the FAITH OF JESUS“, and Revelation 20:4-5 says in no uncertain terms that those who do not worship the beast or receive the mark and are killed for “the witness of JESUS” and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

    alienated, “I believe that if you were to consider the above and compare it to what Paul says within 2 Thessalonians 2, it would bring light as to what Paul is actually saying.”

    To address what Paul is teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2, let’s first contextualize the idea that many read into Luke 21:36 to support a pre-trib rapture, which reads, “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

    Luke 21:25-28, “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars… At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

    Many who assume a pre-trib rapture often point to “begin” and say it only means the first few signs mentioned earlier in the chapter, but Jesus says “When these things begin to take place” AFTER describing the cosmic signs that we are told happens immediately after the tribulation in Matt 24:29-31. The fact that Jesus does not say “when these things begin to take place” before mentioning those post-trib signs is very significant.

    A couple of verses later, in Luke 21:31, Jesus says “when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand”, and again these things INCLUDE the cosmic signs and the coming of the Son of Man immediately after the tribulation mentioned a few verses earlier.

    Now let’s look at Luke 21:34-36:

    Luke 21:34-36, “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, [referring to “that day”] and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

    What day is “that day”? Jesus just gave us cosmic signs that Joel 2:31 says will happen just BEFORE the Day of the Lord, but immediately AFTER the tribulation according to His own words in Matt 24:29.

    Joel 2:31, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.”

    Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

    Therefore, “that day” that Jesus is referring to in Luke 21:34 is the Day of the Lord. It is the day of Christ’s judgment, of His Divine Wrath – the “orge” that we as believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess 5:9 – read more here). The Greek for “escape” in Luke 21:36 is “ekpheugō” (G1628) and is used elsewhere to refer to escaping the judgment of God (Romans 2:3).

    The Apostle Paul parallels this perfectly when telling us about the gathering of the elect (rapture) in 1 Thessalonians 5:

    1 Thess 5:2,4,6 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the nightBut ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief… Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.”

    So how do we escape? Paul ties in the Day of the Lord with the gathering (rapture) in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, and tells us to watch for that day just as Jesus does in Luke 21:36. Since we know that the Day of the Lord takes place immediately after the tribulation (read here), the escape — and therefore the rapture — is post-trib as well.

    We must not interpret Scripture to conform to our understanding, but rather we must allow our understanding to conform to Scripture. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is clear that our gathering to Christ and the Day of the Lord are one and the same, not two separate events.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 is so detrimental to the idea of a pre-trib rapture that the only answer I’ve seen from pre-trib teachers is a strained explanation of the plain and straightforward teaching clearly laid out by Paul. Instead of accepting what the text says, they say that the “apostasia” itself refers to a “physical departure.” Throughout the history of Christendom, however, every single teacher, theologian, scholar, commentator, translator et al all understood what “apostasia” referred to, and it was never a “physical departure” as in the “rapture”.

    Nowhere in Scripture does “apostasia” ever refer to “physical departure”, either in the Greek LXX (Joshua 22:22; 2 Chron 29:19; Jer 2:19) or the New Testament (Acts 21:21). It is always understood as falling away or departing from the faith. Even pre-trib scholar Paul Feinberg admits that, “If one searches for the uses of the noun ‘apostasy’ in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” (Robert R Ramirez, The Complete Layman’s Guide to End Times Prophecy a Biblical Perspective, p 280). This is again demonstrated in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources by Moulton and Milligan. The word “apostasia” is never used to refer to a “physical departure”, because it is only used in a political or religious defection sense (p. 68-69).

    If Paul wanted to convey the meaning of a physical departure he would have used a word that conveyed such a meaning, such as “kataleipō” (G2641) which means to physically “depart from” or “leave”, or even “chōrizō” (G5563) which means “to depart” or to “go away”. But he did not. In fact, the Holy Spirit did not even inspire Paul to use the word “aphistemi” (G868). None of these words were used by the Holy Spirit for a very good reason: because “physical departure” is not the intended meaning.

    alienated, “Above Paul is referring to the ‘gathering together’ or ‘episynagōgē’, (a gathering together in one place of an assembly, or ‘ekklēsia’, Church), upon Yeshua’s arrival and return, ‘parousia’, (coming, arrival and time of judgement).”

    Paul ties in the Day of the Lord (Christ) with our gathering to Him. He is saying that our gathering (rapture) will not happen until the falling away (apostasy) happens and the man of sin is revealed first. Paul uses the word “episynagōgē” (G1997) here when referring to the rapture as “our gathering”, which is from the word “episynagō” (G1996) — the exact word that Christ used in Matthew 24:31 regarding the gathering of the elect immediately after the tribulation. In explaining the rapture, Paul is in fact referring directly to Christ’s own teaching in the Olivet Discourse and connects the “watching” for the rapture with Jesus’ instructions for His disciples to be watching for His coming “immediately after the tribulation“. In other words, Paul is teaching us that the rapture is post-trib, not pre-trib.

    This becomes even more evident when we compare all of Paul’s teaching on the rapture in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Thess 5 and how it parallels with Christ’s own teaching of the Olivet Discourse. Notice the following:

    Paul Referred to Jesus – Coming of the Lord From Heaven

    Jesus: Matt 24:30 “…they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven…”

    Paul Referred to Jesus – Angel(s)

    Jesus: Matt. 24:31 “…He shall send forth His angels…”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 4:16 “with the voice of the archangel…”

    Paul Referred to Jesus – Trumpet Blast

    Jesus: Matt. 24:31 “…with the sound of a trumpet…”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 4:16 “…with the trumpet of God”

    Paul Referred to Jesus – Catching up of the Living

    Jesus: Matt. 24:31 “…they shall gather together His elect…”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 4:17 “…shall be caught up together…”

    Paul Referred To Jesus – Thief in the Night

    Jesus: Matt. 24:43 “…if the master … had known what hour the thief would come…”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 5:1,2 “…so cometh as a thief in the night.”

    Paul Referred to Jesus – Warning Against “Sleeping”

    Jesus: Mark 13:36 “lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 5:6 “…let us not sleep as do others”

    Paul Referred to Jesus – Warning Against “Drunkenness”

    Jesus: Luke 21:34 “take heed … lest your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 5:6-8 “be sober … they that are drunken are drunken in the night … be sober”

    Paul Referred to Jesus – “Watching” for Christ’s Coming

    Jesus: Mark 13:35-37 “Watch ye therefore … What I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch.”
    Paul: 1 Thess. 5:6 “let us watch…”

    This is not just some simple yet astounding coincidence. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2 we see where Paul again alludes to Christ’s own teaching on the Olivet Discourse and teaches a post-trib rapture:

    Paul – two things take place before the gathering:

    1. Paul says that that day (the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him) will not come unless “there come a falling away first …”.
    2. “… and the Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition… who sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

    Jesus – two things take place before the gathering:

    1. Before the gathering of His elect, Jesus says “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved” (Mat 24:9-13).
    2. “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)” (Mat 24:15).

    Paul teaches the same thing as Jesus. Jesus taught a post-trib gathering of the elect that would be preceded by a departure from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin. Paul also taught a post-trib gathering of the elect, preceded by a departure from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin.

    1 Tim 4:1, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith …”

    When all of this is laid out and considered in their full context only one inescapable conclusion can be drawn: Paul referred to Jesus when speaking about our gathering (rapture), and Jesus spoke of this gathering and Himself stated that it was immediately after the tribulation.

    alienated, “Yet what Paul says is not, ‘for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;’ but it could very well have been translated from the Greek as ….
    ‘Let no one beguile you or deceive you by any manner, because unless a ‘falling away’, (or departure from the faith), comes first, ‘then indeed’ that man of sin is revealed, being the son of destruction'”

    The thrust of the Greek text is informing us that two things must happen before the gathering. First, the apostasy (falling away from the faith) and second, the revealing of the “man of sin”. Only once these two things happen will we then be gathered to Christ, according to Paul (and Christ Himself).

    alienated, “Continuing on to verse 2:7.;

    (7) ‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.’

    Now this verse to me is what establishes merit and credibility to what you have provided within your study, but that is a leading up to, or is a foreshadowing of what is to come. For from the Greek this verse could have been rendered as;

    ‘For the secret mystery of violating the law, is already at work and is operating, but at this moment of time is held back and restrained from its course of progress until it comes to pass that they are taken from amongst the midst.'”

    Well, from the preponderance of the evidence it appears that the Restrainer isn’t removed in the sense that he is completely gone. The Restrainer simply “steps out of the way” and ceases from restraining. Some view the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer, but this view isn’t supported by Scripture hermeneutically or exegetically.

    2 Thess 2:7, “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.”

    The Greek for “taken out of the way” is “ginomai ek mesos” and the word “ginomai” is a deponent verb (middle for active voice), so it need not mean removal by an outside force, but rather removal through a determined act on the part of the subject. In other words, the Restrainer moves himself out of the way by stepping aside or getting out from in between. He stops restraining. It does not mean to be completely removed as some have suggested, but to simply cease from standing in between or to refrain from actively restraining. The closest English translation for 2 Thess 2:7 is found in the NLT:

    2 Thess 2:7, “For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.”

    If it’s not the Holy Spirit, then who or what is it? Well, when Paul told the Christians of Thessalonica about the revealing of the “man of sin” or “lawlessness”, the one “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (2:4) he was obviously alluding directly to the Prophet Daniel (Daniel 11:36-37) who spoke of the exact same event:

    Dan 11:36-37, “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods … for he shall magnify himself above all.”

    Paul even continues by saying, “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” (2:5). Told them what things? The things that were written in the Book of Daniel. Up until then, the Old Testament was their only Scriptural reference to draw from, and after Paul reminds them that he told them these things from the Book of Daniel he then continues, “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time” (2:6). So, given the reference to the end of Daniel 11, what else does Daniel say that would have caused them to remember? A few verses later Daniel writes:

    Dan 12:1, “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.”

    Archangel Michael has watched over the people of God throughout history, but a time would come when Michael would “stand up”. The Hebrew word for “stand up” in Dan 12:1 is “amad” (H5975) and it means “to stand aside or stand still, stop (moving or doing), to cease.” We know that this is the intended meaning because after Michael does this we read about “a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time”. And wouldn’t you know it, this is exactly what Jesus said would happen after the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15,21, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place … then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Why? Because now “the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped …” (2 Thess 2:3-4).

    The fact that Daniel describes great distress after Michael steps aside is no coincidence, and I believe that this is precisely what Paul reminded the Christians of Thessalonica about so that they would remember. Because of this, I believe that the restrainer is therefore Archangel Michael, and when the time comes for Michael to “amad”, all hell breaks loose.

    alienated, “The above would then make sense to that of sequence regarding verse 8.

    (8) ‘And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:'”

    In order for the gathering to happen, one of the things that needed to first occur was the “revealing” of the “man of sin/lawness” who was destined for destruction, yes. But to be “revealed” however doesn’t only mean to be “disclosed” in the sense of being exposed. It also means to be made manifest. The eschatonic Beast of Revelation is obviously manifest already before us today, and has been for nearly 1400 years (think back to Zechariah 5 and the woman of “wickeness” in the basket – has “the curse [alah] that is going out over the whole land” been made manifest? Absolutely. See the Mark of the Beast article for more).

    alienated, “Any way’s, this is how I understand what will occur in the future. That nothing after 4:1. has occurred as of yet, and that a remnant of the Church will be taken first”

    Thank you for sharing your position. Before I close, I have a couple of points that I believe are important for the topic and a couple of questions for you. In 1 Thess 4:16-17 Paul says that when Christ descends, the dead in Christ are resurrected to Christ and then we will be caught up to meet Christ and the resurrected saints in the air. The word “meet” is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by G. Milligan and James Hope Moulton, “The word apantesis seems to have been a kind of official welcome of a newly arriving dignitary – a usage which accords excellently with its NT usage.” In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to escort him back into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then escort them back to Rome. In each example of “apantesis”, the escort back is virtually immediate. We don’t have them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we are — earth. When Christ comes back to Earth, we will go out to meet him, we will remain in the air temporarily until the indignation/wrath is complete, and where ever He goes, we go, and He is going to Jerusalem to set His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

    Zech 14:4-5, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You.

    In Greek culture the word “apantesis” had a technical meaning to describe the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who had gone out from the city for this purpose and would then be ceremonially escorted back into the city. Apantesis was often used to suggest the meeting of a dignitary or king, a famous person, describing people rushing to meet the one who was coming. For instance, when a Roman emperor approached a city, the leading citizens went out to welcome him and had the honor of processing into the city with him. This whole event was described as the “apantesis.”

    Apantesis from apantáo from apó = from + antáo = to come opposite to, to meet especially to meet face to face describes a meeting especially a meeting of two who are coming from different directions.

    Scripture appears to be saying that we are not removed from the Earth to conveniently go to Heaven while all hell breaks loose down below. Those of us who are alive and remain (the Greek word means those who survive) are transformed from corruptible to incorruptible, and we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air per the “apantesis”, which means that we escort Christ back to earth — ie. Jerusalem — which is consistent with its usage in each of the other verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word (again). Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth for His Second Coming, pre-tribism has us going to Heaven instead, which the text does not say anywhere, at any place, at any time. How do you reconcile this?

    Moreover, many often refer to the pre-trib rapture as the “blessed hope”. Let’s examine what the Apostle Paul was referring to in the epistle of Titus:

    Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7, “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began … Looking for that blessed hope [eternal life], AND the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ… That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

    Paul uses the word “hope” three times in his epistle — at the beginning when speaking about eternal life and then later while referring to that blessed hope, and then once more again near the end. Each time he is referring to the blessed hope of eternal life. When is this actualized? At the First Resurrection / Second Coming of Christ. Nowhere does Paul ever say that the “blessed hope” is a pre-trib rapture. We are looking for the blessed hope of eternal life, and (in addition to) the glorious appearing of Christ.

    The glorious appearing is the “epiphaneia” (G2015) and there is something that is very important about the “epiphaneia” of Christ that very few pre-trib teachers will discuss:

    2 Thess 2:8, “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [epiphaneia G2015] of his coming

    If the “epiphaneia” is post-trib, and if the “blessed hope” of eternal life is actualized at the “epiphaneia” of Christ, then does it therefore not stand to reason that we are to believe that the blessed hope is His post-trib appearance and the resurrection/gathering of the elect and that Scripture is teaching a post-trib rapture, not pre-trib?

    God bless!

    • Ica
      I enjoyed your post overall, and would agree with a majority of it. I Do have one question for you. (One of those long convoluted questions so forgive me)

      As You know, Satan thought that he would have victory in killing Jesus on the cross. But this was the intent of prophecy which was concealed to him, as he does not know the ways of God.

      As you as well may know, Judas, Satan’s man, was not revealed until the Last supper. Thus there was a restrainer holding back this knowledge from the disciples.

      When Judas left the upper room…in the upper room discourse found in John 13-17, it is only then that Jesus could openly, and honestly talk and reveal who he was, and the plan for betrayal, and death on the cross, without speaking in parables and figuratively. (John 16:29)

      Now if we take these episodes as a type of comparison to what Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2, then would this not mean that the restrainer is Satan himself, who is concealing his man “who misses the mark”, As a member of the “Christian church”, but who in reality is not what he claims to be, but is instead there to betray? This also would indicate that he is awaiting a certain event to occur such as a “great sign” as found in revelation 12:1 to occur, before he reveals his man, but he misses the mark, which is to say that he does not understand the ways of God, and has made the same mistake he made before in murdering Jesus, as per revelation 12:11?

      I do not want to reveal to much of what I am seeing, as Satan is as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But I believe that the rapture, and in particular its timing is one of the things he is trying to figure out, and that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are as a decoy, so that he makes his move too late, or too early depending on your perspective.

      Thank you for your post, I would appreciate if you would consider what is said, and I pray the Holy Spirit allows you to see what I am seeing.

      God bless.

    • Hi ICA,

      Thank you for your response, and I agree with the first point that you had made regarding the translated “This [is] the first resurrection” of Revelation 20:5.
      (The plural accusative would be: τάς ἀναστάσεις (tas anastaseis) whereas in the nominative, αἱ ἀναστάσεις (hai anastaseis), so that indeed was my error.)

      And though I could address each and every numerous point that you make with a valid and supportive counter point, I believe that in the end we would still be at an impasse with what it is that we personally believe, (so I see no merit to do so).

      There are unfortunately too many theories and ideologies out there in regards to eschatology, and it is a shame that the Body itself can’t seem to arrive at a consensus.
      However, I don’t believe that this will pose to be a particular problem for a Sovereign God, and we will just have to wait and see as to how it all plays out.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach Melech Malchei HaMelachim.
      Yehi shem Adonai mevorakh.

      • Hi ICA,

        I am not even sure if you will read this, since I had said above that I didn’t see the merit to respond, and address all that you had stated as to what you believe.

        However I will respond with just this.
        Do you believe that Revelation 7:9-17., is describing a “rapture or gathering” of those that overcame during the time of the great tribulation?

        If so, (and I would have difficulty with you denying that it is indeed that), then please consider the following;

        “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment”; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Revelation 3:5.

        “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” Revelation 3:18.

        So the group that “overcomes” shall “receive” and be clothed (or arrayed) in white raiment, (or garments).

        Whereas those from the Church of Laodicea are told that they must “buy”, (agorazō) from Yeshua gold “tried”, (pyroō, or “melted by fire and purged of dross”) from the fire so they will have the currency to “buy” their “white raiment, or garments”.

        Yeshua says to those of the Church of Sardis in Revelation 3:4.;
        “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not “defiled” their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.”
        (defiled above the transliterated “molynō”, to pollute, stain, contaminate, defile. used in NT of those who have not kept themselves pure from the defilements of sin, who have soiled themselves by fornication and adultery)

        Doesn’t that say then that the “Laodiceans” aren’t “overcomers” then? And that they have “polluted, stained and contaminated” their garments?

        Maybe that explains Revelation 7: 14 then?

        “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have “washed” their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

        The group that “overcomes” shall “receive” and be clothed (or arrayed) in white raiment, (or garments), whereas those that go through the Tribulation do so, so that they can “wash” theirs!
        (wash – plynō. Only used once in all of Scripture, “to wash: with reference to clothing. use figuratively of those who by faith so appropriate the results of Christ’s expiation as to be regarded by God as pure and sinless.”)

        If you happen to think that Yeshua will call those that have to “wash” their garments up to heaven “before” those that “receive” their garments……. well I’m sorry, but I just can’t see that happening.

        Be blessed in Yeshua the Righteous Judge, that I’m pretty sure wouldn’t do that.

        Oh, and regarding the above in your initial response, where you mentioned that for a “external deliverance” to take place, you believed that the transliterated preposition “apo” should be present…… did you happen to research 2 Thessalonians 2:13?
        “because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit”
        “because God has chosen “a separation of a part from the whole” at the start of what will then follow. He will take for Himself “you” to be delivered by being consecrated and purified through the Spirit”

        That does sound like there could indeed be an “external deliverance” for some?
        And I agree with you that there will also be believers that will see the “abomination of desolation” too.
        But wouldn’t they possibly be those from the Church of Laodicea?
        Those that were “spit out”. Revelation 3:16.?

  48. Marianne, before approving the reply I submitted earlier can you please take a moment to make four quick changes — my proofreading is’t always the best!🙂

    In the opening statement, please change “that I could like to suggest” to “that I would like to suggest”

    In the third paragraph, change “W find ourselves” to “We find ourselves”

    Change the word “reception” to “receptor”

    Change “conform to your understanding” to “conform to our understanding”


  49. Dear All, who are looking for answers,

    you have to know that the Christian Church has nothing to do with Jesus. The Christian Church is the church of Peter and Paul, and this church has slauthered many cultures down to the latest roots in the times we call the “the dark medieval times”. Killing people in the name of Jesus has nothing to do with the message of Jesus. The latin cross of the Christian Church is the simbol of SUFFERING (in the form how you can see it on top of each temple/church and FIGHT (if you reverse the latin cross, you’ll get a SWORD). When a Christian preast baptises a child, he sais: “you were born in sin and will die in sin”. It is not a positive program, it is a CURSE. Jesus has nothing to do with the latin cross but the EVEN CROSS (+). The even cross is the symbol of equilibrum and the MOMENT where the ethernal meets the temporal.

    Besides, there had never lived anybody who was named as “Jesus Christ”. There was a man called “Imanuel Jesus” who told us to FOLLOW him (not to WORSHIP him, as Bible tells), and if we follow him, we can arrive to the same place where he went. What does it mean “follow”? To follow is to understand why Jesus was Christ.

    The word “Chirst” is not a name but a QUALITY. “Jesus Christ” means “Jesus the Enlightened”. What “enlightened” means? Enlightened means to figure out the real point and meaning of existence and answer to the questions: “who am I?”, “where did I come from?”, “where am I heading to?”. The simple and short answer is: we came from the entity that we call “GOD”, God is in everyone of us as our spirit. See as reference: book of psalms 82:6. Everybody, every man and women holds that scent of God. God has multiplied himself into many parts (our scientists call it as the big boom), and gave us 3% of freedom in our 3D existence what we call “world” or “universe”. We can use that 3% to whatever we want here on earth: we can love or hate, save or kill.

    So, one and most important part to be enlightended is to understand that everyone of us is a part of God. Killing or hurting another man would mean the same as if you would hurt yourself.

    Jesus will never come back as many of the christians belives. He will never return as a human. Jesus will return in ourselves! The spirit of Jesus will come back in all of those people who understand what does it mean to be enlightened. Jesus said that his return will be as obvious as seeing a flash during the night. That flash is UNDERSTANDING. To understand something means to rule something. Understand that every one of us is a piece of God. Having a piece of God means we all posess the quality of God. We just have to remember.

    May the light touch you all🙂

    Best regards:

    • Very New Age Laszio. Are you a follower of Lucis Trust?

      What they don’t tell you in arcane school is G-d the father maker of Heaven, and earth has laws that are just. Once your god refused to follow, and then mislead an untold number in Heaven, G-d could have forced worship to himself as he is all powerful, and the only G-d that exists.

      Therefore, how does G-d show his laws are just without using his power to force worship of himself? That part of G-d called the word, or the Christ who had a human body, but had the spirit of G-d inside died for humans because G-d’s laws, if broke (sin), require a price.

      You see? Your god did not sacrifice himself for humans, he Sinned against his creator through pride, and lies. He told all that would hear, G-d does not allow me to ascend to a higher creature. G-d’s laws are unjust.

      In the New Age, one can ascend just like the light bearer to a new creature through the Christ conscientious. The same tired old lie Old Knob has been telling for eons. You can be as G-d.

      Welcome to the New Age. Your god is now playing in Theaters nation wide. It is called Superman. You might know him as Tammuz.

  50. …and one more plus on top of that what I have already told you… Do you know that in the Hebrew alphabet every letter is a number also? If not, than check it. Now, you know that the internet is called World Wide Web, because of that, many websites starts with the “www”.

    In Hebrew, the letter “vav” which can be translated into the “w” letter in English alphabet, HAS THE NUMBER OF 6. Therefore, each time you refer a webpage, and even when you use the internet, you are connected to the number 666, the number of the beast.

    So, at least in 90% (or maybe more?) in my opinion, the internet serves the interests of the angels of material (lead by Lucifer).

    All the best,

    • Laslo

      Jesus said he would return, so we would have no reason to doubt him. the word “christ” is the greek version of “moshiach” in hebrew which means anointed.

      Jesus was anointed as the messiah by the Father in heaven. He came to pay for our punishment due to sins, and he rose from the dead, overcoming death itself. He sent the holy spirit to minister to us until his return. His goal was to bring all who trust in his salvation to heaven, to eternal life.

      he will come back as quick as a flash, but he will still come back.

      he described the times in which he would do this, and time time is soon coming.

      Read the book of John and the book of Revelation in the bible and you will see much.

      We are not all part of God until we are saved from our sins. We cannot expect wicked evil people to share in God’s holiness and purity. there has to be repentance first, turning away from sin, accepting the sacrifice Jesus made to pay for our sins, and then the love of God must come into us. God will not enter an unclean vessel. it has to be purified first.

      god bless you.

      • Marianne
        I agrre with most of what you said but jesus father did not anoit him i heaven. Maria m emptied a bottle of oil over his head then he became anoited, messiah, kristos, christ.

        • He was Annointed King of the Jews…soon after to be lifted up…on the cross. I Actually kind of agree with Adam🙂 .

          John 12:1-8

        • adam and dru

          Actually, I guess I should have said he was predetermined to be anointed…

          He came to suffer and die for us…..

          anointing comes with presence of holy spirit, which he always had anyhow.

  51. Dear All,

    Jesus was not crucified to pay for any sins of anybody. Jesus was crucified because he uderstood that everyone is part of the great puzzle. By understanding, he won over the lord of this world (Satan) spiritually, therefore, as a punishment to his body (Satan could not touch not his soul, nor his spirit), the “local authority” of Satan sent him to the cross. I tell you again to check and understand Psalms 82:6. Jesus has understood the meaning of that (Psalms 82:6 did exist in Jesus’ time).

    So, in contrary what the Church states, there is no central salvation. There has never been. It is a convenient way for the Curch to place themselves between you and God. Basicly, every relegion is doing that. Places itself between you and God. But you can contact God directly. It is you, and only you who can salvate yourself by following Jesus and finding the ethernal light inside you.

    I really understand that it is very hard to accept. The program of the Church is very strong. Dare to think about on what I’ve been telling.

    God bless you all,

    • Anoiting is when someone puts oil over someones head and blesses him or declares him as the king. Jesus never became king when his name was jesus because Jews denied him. The discples left over info to the church the ortodox one to baptize in oil and water so from the start of the church we are anoited when we baptize. All ortodox and catholic christians are oil anoited ones. But we only have one hu,man king and soon he will fire up the wicked ones.
      God bless Israel

    • Lazlo

      I can agree with some things you say.

      christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with Jesus.

      and there is no salvation through the church, it is through faith in Jesus and what he did for us.

      and he did die for our sins….he said so, and this is what happened.

      it may not fit into your philosophy, but that is his recorded intent, and it is something that mankind needs, as no man can save himself from sin….he is not capable…..otherwise he would be sinless.

  52. dru, “if we take these episodes as a type of comparison to what Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2, then would this not mean that the restrainer is Satan himself, who is concealing his man ‘who misses the mark'”

    I hear what you’re saying and it’s an interesting notion, however unless we begin with assumed premisses to begin with (that Satan was the one restraining Judas) then I am unable to find the text supporting the idea itself, not to mention Satan working to restrain evil being somewhat problematic. Remember, Satan entered Judas (Luke 22:3) so that Jesus would be betrayed, and Jesus already knew that He would be betrayed. According to the text, it was Jesus Himself that “unrestrained” Judas (in whom Satan entered) and allowed Judas to betray him (cf. Luke 22:36, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it…”). God would not allow the betrayal to happen until the appointed time, which was just before Passover. If the Adversary’s character is any indication, however, restraint is not one of his “virtues”, if there ever were any.

    The only restraining force against evil that the full counsel of Scripture ever provides for us is either the Armies of Heaven (created angels) or the Creator Himself. In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul has two subjects in view:

    1) The “man of sin/lawlessness” (2:3 – Subject 1)
    2) A restrainer, (2:7 – Subject 2) — the principle here is described in personal terms as “he who holds back/restrains”

    2 Thess 2:3, “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.”

    2 Thess 2:7, “For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back [restrain] steps out of the way.” (NLT)

    The word for “restrain” is katechō and it carries with it the sense of seizing, or detaining, or hindering. Paul’s language does not imply that Satan or the “man of sin/lawlessness” is seizing or detaining or hindering himself. Rather, the language strongly suggests in my view that it is a separate subject entirely that is performing this determined action. In fact, to seize or detain or hinder implies an action that is being done against the will of the one being seized/detained/hindered. It makes little sense in my mind for Satan or the man of sin/lawlessness to be seizing/detaining/hindering himself against their own will. Rather, the texts infers that someone much greater is restraining by force. If we are to use Judas (whom Satan dwells) as a type for the “man of sin” (whom Satan dwells), then it is not Satan that restrains, but rather a much more Heavenly force entirely.

    • Ica
      Thanks for that response. Here is what I am seeing. I am seeing in this passage three individuals. The Man of Lawlessness, (The one who misses the mark and goes to perdition), the Lawless one…Anomos who may be the former indwelt with the Spirit of Satan. The restrainer, which is to conceal the Identity of Satan’s Man, hence the revelation to come afterward…Declaring himself god. In Your quote of verse 7 above, Satan is keeping secret, what will be made known.

      This is just like the tares within the church, and which is why the falling away is intricately tied to these events. They will remain until the time when the church is judged…first mind you, as per 1 Peter 4:17

      In other words, there is a moment when the tares will know who to follow, and will be separated from the church because The man of lawlessness will be revealed, the secret being outed. My point is regarding the Man of Lawlessness (Hamartia in the Greek) is a Man prepossessed and the seventh, while the Lawless one (anomos) is the post mortal wound, eighth beast.

      Now what we also have here is the notion of the pre-tribulation rapture as well. If he is waiting for this event, before he reveals his man, then he will find that while he thought he would have seven years or more, he will only have one year to 3.5 years…his time being short. Rev. 12:12, Matthew 24:22.

      To understand what I am saying fully, you have to understand that I believe that Jesus comes once, to rapture his church, the two witnesses, the 144K, the Day of the Lord. This all occurs at sometime after the sixth seal, shortly before the last trumpet, between the fifth and sixth bowl. My timeline does not separate seals trumpets and bowls, but they all overlap one another. The Judgment of the church precedes this as per 1 Peter 4:17, seals 3,4,5, which place the A of D sometime before the before the fifth seal, as per Matthew 24. (A study I recently did points to the third seal).

      My Theory is really quite simple when you think of it in terms of all the sevens line up, seventh seal, trumpet and vial, and the Language points to the day of the Lord. The Problem is so much tradition and teaching and bad assumptions have hindered people from seeing this.

      God bless.

      • Interesting dru.

        I see two points of yours I do not understand. The restrainer. The one that keeps the beast in the bottomless pit until G-d orders the beast lose to indwell Lucifer’s man on earth. Possibly, at the 3.5 year mark on the seven year treaty.

        Lucifer, to my understanding has not been thrown down to earth yet. Perhaps, at the midpoint of the seven year treaty this happens, and at the same time a mid-Trib rapture.

        Something has to mislead even the elect. What do you think the great lie will be? Something that misleads the whole world.

        I’m thinking UFO landing to help us humans to heal mother earth, and be a part of a galactic federation of planets. Just as it was in Noah’s time. The fallen Angels having offspring with humans.

  53. Did anyone notice that Zero gave his speech at Brandenberg gate exactly six months into his second term?…meaning he has 42 months left…and counting!

  54. The hour has Come!

  55. Adam

  56. virus’s in syria and saudi arabia could spread

  57. chemtrails and their toxins

  58. Irvin Baxter shows a very detailed and scriptural examples and facts about the End of the Age… You will learn more about all you would want to know. Visit or google Irvin Baxter End of the Age. May the Lord be with us all..

  59. “Nano Domestic Quell”


    people also…..

  61. A new Turkish aggression against Syria: Ankara suspends pumping Euphrates’ water

  62. i was just wondering who owned the pale horse image and if you could describe the symbolism of it and what the words are on the green flag please?

  63. thank you very much for great revelation…only the Holy Ghost can reveal this

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