Concerning Widows

clip_image002

Age and gender discrimination?

Nothing is said about men in the same situation.

In Timothy, chapter 5

The passage starts out positive:

3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.

clip_image004

Then it is said a widow has to be over 60 years old before she can have any help, and she has to meet a set of requirements.

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.

10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

clip_image005

Younger widows are stereotyped in a very negative way:

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

clip_image006

Families to take care of their own

16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

clip_image007

Objections:

1. If a woman is widowed at an early age, with no family, there is no help for her.

Why does she have to wait until her life is almost over to receive charity?

She is only allowed to have been married once. If her first husband died, and she remarried, and then the second one died, she is not eligible to receive aid.

2. Younger women are automatically portrayed as damned, gossips, idle, and tattlers.

Suppose the woman has 7 children, and she is losing her mind trying to take care of all of them, without any help from the church?

Suppose she is a virtuous woman, who is now misrepresented as “turning after Satan” just because she lost her husband?

Isn’t this a bit cruel and unfair? What does Paul know about being a widow, and all the hardships?

3. The passage later comments that people should take care of their own widows. That is good, but suppose there is no family available?

Or if they do not fit the “official” definition of a “widow indeed ( over 60 years old),” does the family ignore them?

clip_image008

Need for compassion in today’s world

Today, there are many widows. Single mothers head up more households than men do now.

Churches routinely discriminate against divorced, or widowed young women, and treat them as either insignificant, or as a jezebel threat to the men.

If they are fat, ugly old hags, then acceptance comes easier.

If churches somehow accept the young widow, she is expected to pay tithes, rather than receive charity.

And if the pastor has contact with her, he needs to “protect himself” and his reputation from this “lonely, sex starved” woman.

Young widows may be far from family, or just do not have any family who will help.

Does the church ignore them, as the bible instructs?

clip_image010

My Thoughts

I think this passage is sexist, and hostile to virtuous, widowed, young women.

Just because a woman is widowed, it does not make her a gossip and a slut.

And why, if she has had 2 husbands to die, or abandon her, does that disqualify her for help?

So what is the correct interpretation of this passage against women?

What are your thoughts?


95 Responses to “Concerning Widows”

  1. What a problem! I suppose the apostles had a problem in a community in which wealth was shared. They had to decide who got what. So they had to evaluate from a morals point of view, not just on need as we do with our modern welfare.
    It does sound really mean. I am very lonely as a widow, and think of myself as more or less dead since Irv died, but I am not like these widows, because Irv’s pension became mine, and my pension from teaching became mine. I was not left destitute. Christ would surely approve of my situation more than he would the situation of the widows in the story.

    Being a widow has made me rely more on Christ because I have no friends, except online friends. I had to quit my church for a couple of reasons, and I know I did the right thing…I did what I had to do. I have become close to some online, however, and will probably visit one of them when the forest fire smoke gets here this summer, if it does (praying it won’t).

    Jesus told us this world would be difficult and unfair and this story of the widows shows that it is. He would be more loving than these apostles, don’t you think? But the poor guys had to make decision which were not so easy, how to divide up the money and the care.

  2. I believe it was a warning not to enable an able person. Of course a young widow with seven children wouldn’t have time to be a busy body and have idle time (no more than a man with seven children would). I think Paul is saying providing for her would give rise to the enemy through temptation and then guilt. Paul meant enough provisions that would enable her to have a lot of free time. Free time really messed up King David, a man after God’s own heart. A young woman has a lot more energy, also. He also says it is to prevent the adversary from speaking accusations. It was a warning to protect those believers in this imperfect world. This excludes many people, but really sums up the definition of a widow that should completely be taken care of by the church. What about crippled men who lose their wife? What about a women 58 years old? So much of the Bible can be taken in an offensive way, I would know, but when we know the heart of God and we look deeper we find the real meaning.

  3. in my opinion; these are the writings of paul’s personal beliefs not commandments from god or the holy spirit. we must remember that paul lived in a time of great slavery. so did the disciples. a good scripture to understand how paul among others wrote; i will not suffer a woman to teach, (have authority over the man). remember not every word in the new testament is of the holy spirit, usually paul mentions when he is speaking on his own.

  4. Today things is not of same statue to then days. A man was allowed to have more than one wife in those days. Thus a younger widow would be sexually attractive to a man and would be easily taken by a man as a wife . But an older widow would not have had the same attraction and thus would need assistance as no man would be interested in her. This kind of life is still practised by the AMISH in USA and that would show you how it was then. Today we live for the one man one women and any thing against that is abomination to us. That is why you would find this text as offensive and our society is so huge we have grown to the millions . Todays society acts and live totally different than those days. Still for the church to take care of all widows then and now would be a massive task and there would be and still is not enough do the task and give them the same attention and wealth and care as a husband and or family can.

  5. Marianne,

    Do tell?

    “I think this passage is sexist, and hostile to virtuous, widowed, young women.

    Just because a woman is widowed, it does not make her a gossip and a slut.”

    What portions of Scriptures do you find are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which ones are not?

    Peter’s letters? Paul’s? James’ letter?

    Blessings
    Proverbs 20:14

    • dj

      so you are saying you would believe that the holy spirit told paul that younger widows “turn after satan?” and that they are all gossips?

  6. paul said many things that were not given under the inspiration of the holy spirit, paul states this as his belief, but not under the holy spirit. second time i have posted this.

  7. The bible is full or cultural biases against women. From the fall of man through the time of Paul. Men could have 100’s of wives AND concubines, but a woman could not have those things. A woman is a harlot if she has sex outside a marriage but there no such label for the man who does this. In studying the cultures, history, the way the bible written and the men who chose what books were to be left out, some written by women we can see that these practices were of man and not God. Men elevated themselves to patriarchy and power, the ultimate temptation…and there will be judgement. There are many men who have studied these things who don’t believe it anything other than man’s cultural way, paganism, etc…God made them

    • the bible is the holy word of god. yes, in the old testament there were ways completely different from the present day, various laws and ordinances, then jesus came. and by him grace came. in the new testament you will find that those who recorded, said if it was of their opinion or of the holy spirit. as far as books being left out of the bible; would you not agree that god would make sure that his word was kept and the way to salvation was not removed from the word of god? or do you think it was just a made up book by men?

      • there are passages that record events and talk not of God….like when david slept with bathsheba….

        and there were some disputes between the apostles and Paul to begin with…so it does record some opinion.

        and paul started out boasting thinking he was the greatest of apostles to begin with (opinion) but later said he was the least of the apostles…being more humble

    • (Continued) “them” meaning male and female in His image..Take the demeaning actions by men in the bible who declared a woman is unclean when on her period…God designed the woman’s body to have this monthly flow, but men declared all this uncleaness, NOT God…Scholars have even discovered that the some of the writings of Paul, especially Ephesians, did not become part of the books until some sixty years after his death. The letters were determined to be written in a way that were not in Paul’s eloquent style and command of his language. Paul was highly educated and supposedly had a very distinct way of speaking that only the wealthy educated people had. But even if Ephesians was written by Paul, most scholars agree that the verses regarding women were to gain an acceptance of God and His church concept in a time when women were worshipped as Goddesses and had the greatest wealth and power on earth and over men…scholars say Paul didn’t trust that the society would give all that up to God and become believers so he, supposedly, wrote those passages of submission, head coverings, etc. I was raised by an educated christian father in a society that treated women in the way of God. No oppression, with equal blessings from God. Women have the same Holy Spirit as men, with the same gifts. God did not make a different Holy Spirit for man and a lesser Holy Spirit for women. It is absurd and ungodly for men to behave this way, there will be judgement. I encourage all to do your own studies. There were great and powerful women that were left out of the bible…these are end times, we do want to be right with God and we do have the tools to research if need be so that we are right with God. We turn to Him, not man’s nonsense…be blessed in who you were created to be….

      • i do not mean any offense; are you saying that what is in the holy bible is insufficient to live by, and that because the way it is recorded we cannot inherit eternal life? just wondering.( a lot.)

        • don’t think she meant that…she is just addressing the cultural bias against women, evident in the biblical society, and reflected in all cultures

          • Thanks Marianne. God gave man free will and the direction to discern. If you have a relationship with God, intimate and deep as He wants with you (all) you will know the “way”. Jesus tells He us in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me”. I choose Jesus!

            • ! Sorry about all typos! Using cell phone but it’s malfunctioning. 😦

              • i used to have that problem to. and i still had the problem until a couple of days ago on my pc when i finally found out to simply click the right hand button to correct spelling on the mouse.

          • just wondering. why are very few women actually mentioned in good ways in the bible, and the opposite; i think it was always that way back then. that does not make it right. as i have stated before; in the new testament most (not all), say it is their belief (the way they personally think) when you see scriptures that are about women, or how a woman should act. etc. then also it tells a lot about how a man should act also. but i understand the point Elle is making.

  8. I think you are reading it the same way as many sexist men have read it over the centuries.

    Your first mistake is to think that Paul was only representing himself. But Peter told us that what Paul wrote was Scripture, inspired by God himself.

    Once you have understood that what is presented here are the thoughts and Words of God Himself, then you can start to search other Scriptures to see what it is that Paul is saying.

    Compare spiritual with spiritual. The truth is that you will never understand it unless you access the Holy Spirit and accept what He was saying through Paul.

    For one thing, the mission of the Church is to spread the gospel, first and foremost. The Church is not primarily a social safety net, and I would argue that it is not a safety net at all. It is the fellowship of the saints. It is too easy to get sidetracked into do-good projects and forget the true mission. Paul was focussed on the mission, because without the gospel, millions are perishing.

    What does it matter if a woman goes to Hell with a full stomach? Will caring for young widows divert precious resources from the Church’s true mission? If the Church is diverted from its true mission, how many more will perish?

    Frankly, I think this is what Paul is getting at. Stop approaching the Word of God with 21st century socialist mindset. The bible is not about socialism!

    • this is not about socalism. This is about equal discriminating against the younger widows who may need more help than the older ones.

      it was plain from scripture that the Lord wanted the poor ministered to, and this should be done.

      so helping the poor is more than a do good project…it is part of the gospel message

      it is not the goal of the gospel to preach to the poor and let them starve.

      even paul accepted help, and he was a healthy man, so why not the less fortunate….

      the early church ministered to widows and orphans.

    • very well put

  9. I believe Jesus brought equality to women but this does not mean it carried over in HIS time or even now.
    Jesus had a conversation with the woman at the well and told her all about her life. This was unheard of in that day to approach a Samaritan woman. This set her free and she was jubilant with joy as she ran back to her village proclaiming this encounter with the Messiah who knew everything about her. She was a moral outcast even in Samaria, thus the reason she was at the well in the heat of the day.
    Jesus said to her, “Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” (John 4:13-14 RSV
    Mary Magdalene was the 1st human to see Jesus risen from the grave, no mistake, it was HIS choice to appear to her first.

    When I was married, it was common to have my husband lord it over me showing me much less than love, treating me as less than him, continually.

    No more then a century ago, by legal standards a woman was a man’s property, just above his cattle, a fact. My great grandmother at the age of 14 was forced to marry a much older man because he had money. Might just say her parent’s sold her, such sorrow she had losing her childhood innocence to an older drunk man with money. She was raised R.C.
    BTW she divorced him and did the best she could raising her 3 children, running a boarding house; my great uncle left and was never heard of again, breaking my G. grandmother’s heart doubly. My grandmother, according to my deceased Aunt repeated a very unhappy marriage union with my grandfather.
    I am likely getting off the subject, but Jesus was & IS an equal opportunity Messiah. He loved all mankind in the true sense; this was the way of the Master.
    I am studying slowly the Hebrew scriptures. In the NT there were women preachers; sorry do not have a reference for this now, but understand this as fact.
    Yes, discrimination of younger women widows and double whammy if having to divorce; a real outcast understood personally.

    • true…some do not see that a divorced or widowed younger woman with children might be more needy than an older woman who only has herself to worry about.

      • I might be incorrect and judgmental in saying this, but more likely then not, most churches today do not take care of the needy, poor, widows young or old alike & fail to meet their needs on any level. Seems they just have big buildings, big pulpits, state of the art sound, theatrical equipment and many on the payroll. There has to be exceptions.

        • you forgot big tax exempt status

          • Well i did not want to go there w/ better then thou and on a roll, but here it goes…
            I think of this HUGE benefit quite a bit, I was more trusting and stupid, supporting some of these ministries once upon a time.😦 I was shocked to find out the very ministers I knew as a baby Christian yrs. ago, are now living in Grand wealth, shock,truly!!!😦
            I have confronted some HUGE ministries about their better then thou status, online/ over the phone. Putting down the working class who have to use the very system we pay into when we are out of a job or can no longer work, due to health and have to rely on the govt. WE paid into. not the Tax exempt churches that live larger then life; heaven on earth, and they deserve it! ? Honestly I think any church that is making a certain amount should be taxed! AND help the needy of our country, growing every day as baby boomers age, etc. Let’s write the president. It would be a HUGE benefit to the deficient, whew!

            • I used to support a large ministry but not now…I felt they had high salaries and could have spent the money better

            • Marianne,
              Do you know of any[ legit & worthy] ministries that actually feed and cloth the poor? I still kind of feel sucked into TV shots of starving kids,etc. but after my encounter above I am leery of anyone on TV, sad but true.
              I would really like to know if you can direct me towards charities= Truly supporting Israel or really helping the poor in this country or abroad. Thanks.

        • no your not wrong. i used to go to a very small church (less then 100 seats) and they stopped having canned food being brought in by people for people in need. that is pathetic.

          • too many pastor and staff salaries to pay….I had a church like that…..there were about 100 people, and the pastor made $60,000 a year back in 1997…..the sunday school teacher made $200 a week. so that is 200/ hour….then they said they had no money for charity

  10. What this is about is the Word of God. You can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe the Word of God.

    What Paul wrote is Scripture and it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Your argument is not against Paul but against God.

    • As I asked another person, do you really think the holy spirit said that just because a woman is a young widow that she is “turned aside after Satan?”
      1 tim 5:15

    • not every scripture is a commandment. many are spoken to keep from being tempted of the devil, others are just their own opinions; paul says this several times; that it is not a commandment but what he believes, so the scriptures are inspired by the holy spirit, but some are opinions of the person writing. and it usually states that.

  11. Dear Marianne,

    You have not answered my question.

    While I wait for your answer — consider this application of similar “sexist” language.

    You may not find this passage “sexist” at all, but profound because it was written by the hand of wise king Solomon (before he was taken away by lust of the flesh).

    “A foolish woman is clamorous; She is simple, and knows nothing. For she sits at the door of her house, on a seat by the highest places of the city, to call to those who pass by, who go straight on their way:

    “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here”;

    And as for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,

    “Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.”

    But he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of hell” (Proverbs 9:13-18).

    Maybe Paul had Proverbs in mind (spirit) when his wrote the passage you consider “sexist” and not inspired by the Spirit.

    Maybe Solomon was also “sexist” by not referencing a foolish man turing away form the path of righteousness; wisdom, knowledge, understanding and council.

    The question –

    What portions of Scriptures do you find are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which ones are not?

    Peter’s letters? Paul’s? James’ letter?

    Choose wisely.

    Blessings
    Psalm 19

    • sexist is the 600 wives wise Solomon had….his focus was on women, not men

      Solomon did not address the men who go out and hunt down women for their own pleasure.

      • It is written, Solomon, the wisest man lost his salvation/ died in idolatry is it not? I find this a profound and very cautious lesson in itself.

  12. Opinion or inspired?

    “You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered” (1 Peter 3:7).

    Oh my!!

    Peter says “as with someone weaker, since she is a women…”

    Obviously, women are weaker.

    Could this be another “sexist” statement by an Apostle?

    Comments and replies are encouraged.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

    • weaker physically

    • Hi DJ,
      The Word of God is inspired.

      We are to study and show ourselves approved. 2 TIM 2:15

      End times, knowledge shall increase. DAN 2:14> the internet, no excuse to not dig deeper.

      Incorrect translations and the traditions of man, cause error. Bless you~

      • DJ,
        I will submit a more Holy Spirit revealing” accurate” translation to the subject matter of this post, later today. My dog jumped on cord, lost connection and my thorough Biblical response.🙂

      • will someone look at first corinthians chapter 7; it clearly shows within this chapter that sometimes paul is speaking on his own, what he believes, then paul tells (writes) that it is not him speaking but the lord. this single chapter on it’s own shows that sometimes it is what the author is advising to do and then it shows when it is the lord speaking as commandment. this is crystal clear.

  13. Elle,

    You wrote:

    “God designed the woman’s body to have this monthly flow, but men declared all this uncleaness, NOT God…”

    “…You shall not marry a woman in addition to her sister as a rival while she is alive, to uncover her nakedness. Also, you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity. You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor’s wife, to be defiled with her.…”(Leviticus 18:18-20).

    God sure did tell men and women to “back off” during that time of the month. Must be a very good reason – I would think the reasons are both physical and spiritual. But, I never had the desire or interest to personally find out.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

  14. Interesting following the block on the topic. Those days a women never worked for an income it was only the men who could provide to the family . When the scripture thus provides for a women as she could not do so herself the scripture defiantly made a line of decision to make all aware of there fait when become alone due to life circumstances and thus she who then knows the law will have to ensure that she take the appropriate action to be secure. To then blame all churches hens today not serving the people and taking care of all widowers and orphans is not fair. However to say that the Pastors and priests is now taking there positions as an employment and not an calling that is definitely correct. The scriptures are all given by GOD none is absolute and this is why the church leaders need it to be questioned as it accuses them in there living standards and ways of life. I for one believe what is written is true and just and that every man and women will only be judged on there own life and not on any body’s ells life. That the bible will be crucified is because it is against SATAN and thus it will be judged and many will attempt to bring it in disrepute as it serves the DEVIL well in doing so. No other written book ever been attacked like the true BIBLE as it is the word of GOD. I don’t judge or question it and it serve me well to understand and serve the LORD GOD ALMIGHTHY any one that feel against this it is your life live it you will be judged as you judged and only you will and can answer on your live, live it the way you want as will I do. Ever wonder how it would have been if two people listened and was obedient to the will of GOD in the beginning ?All of the anger hardship struggle and harsh words of our GOD would never had been. Yet even today blame some one ells but you know what ever happened to yourself is decision done and acts taken by one self. Not one from the beginning till today any man or women can blame some one ells for there own decisions and actions done we done it our self same as Adam and Eve have done. Stop looking for things to attack in the word of our LORD GOD you do not like it change to another religion as GOD do not change HE IS WHO HE IS try as much as you will never will that be changed never. You want to question GOD want to argue with HIM good luck see you when judgement day is done!

  15. Nope.

    Try again.

  16. Are you saying the writings of Proverbs are influenced by Solomon’s women issues?

    • dj

      you are out of the comment string.. you were saying that paul was not sexist, but reflected the same thoughts as solomon, then it must be of the holy spirit….then I replied that solomon also had 600 wives.which indicates a behavior that is not guided by the holy spirit….

      so yes, solomon was off the path in his later years, focused on too much sex with women, who were just something he used for pleasure…so solomons’ views on women are not necessarily of the holy spirit, and he, like most men, view all vice due to the evil in woman, not the evil in man.

      muslims think the same way

  17. http://onenewmanbible.com/about-the-bible

    One New Man Bible 2011
    GENESIS2:18
    And the LORD* God said, “It is not good that the man Adam, should be alone, I shall make a helper corresponding (3) to him.

    Footnote: (3) vs18 The Hebrew word translated, ‘corresponding’ is keneged, with a root meaning of being equal to and adequate for, so God made Eve equal to Adam and adequate for any task God would assign to Adam.

    One New Man Bible 2011
    GENESIS 2: 21-22
    And the LORD* God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept. And HE took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in it’s place. 22 And HE built(4) the rib, which the LORD* God had taken from man, into a woman and brought her to the man.

    Footnote: (4) vs 22 Note that God created the universe, made man, but HE built Eve. The root for build has the same letters as the root for discern, so Hebrew scholars say that is why women are more spiritually sensitive than men.

    http://onenewmanbible.com/about-the-bible

  18. http://onenewmanbible.com/blog

  19. Susan,

    Yes – the Word as given and written is inspired by the Spirit. Amen.

    I think some folks let their issues interfere with interpretations.

    “The hearing ear and the seeing eye,
    The Lord has made them both” (Proverbs 20:12).

    As for male / female. Equal?

    No.

    She is a helper, companion and “better half”, in some homes.

    Why? Because to say men/women are equal is not accurate (Gen. 3:16).

    Men are under the authority of God and the man of the house is the head of the home and a female, weaker physically is not the reason.

    One of best accounts of failed household order is found in the account of Ahab and Jezebel. A Jezebel certainly would hinder prayers in any home.

    “To the woman He said:

    ‘I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you'” (Gen. 3:16).

    Rule: A primitive root; to rule: – (have, make to have) dominion, governor, X indeed, reign, (bear, cause to, have) rule (-ing, -r), have power.

    This is the verse (and the passage), which Paul is referencing when he writes,

    “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

    For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

    Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

    So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

    For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’

    This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband” (Ephesians).

    Why did Peter purposely wrote his statement?

    “You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered” (1 Peter 3:7).

    It is a spiritual matter (Ahab / Jezebel). Unless Peter is as “sexist” as Paul then that becomes a Jezebel spiritual concern.

    Prayers are hindered because of lack of (spiritual) knowledge, (Hosea, 4:6)

    Paul a “sexist”? What a joke, travesty. Yet a revealing statement.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

    • dj

      I think you need to go back and see the post and how this sexist discussion got started.

      • Well you are make your “sexist” (flesh) point with your first thought!

        “My Thoughts

        I think this passage is sexist, and hostile to virtuous, widowed, young women.”

        Congratulations for setting yourself up as da fool (Proverbs). Nice work.

        Where (specially) is Scripture written in the “flesh” and by the Spirit?

        This question has yet to be answered.

        Maybe because it would spoil your fun; purpose in posting your “sexist” thoughts.

        So – here is my answer, Ms. Marianne.

        I think there is more of a problem when we read Scriptures not led by the Sprint but by our flesh.

        The “sexist” Apostle Paul gave Timothy this sound advise (no doubt inspired by The Spirit):

        “Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things” (2nd Timothy 2:7).

        Seems some missed that sound spiritual advise from the “sexist” Apostle Paul.

        I think the key to Paul and interpretation of Scriptures is within 2 Timothy 2:7 and some deeper meaning within Revelation 2:18-29, but I’m waiting upon the Lord.

        Blessings
        Psalm 25

    • Hi DJ,
      Please take up your confrontation with William Morford. He spent 20+ yrs. w/ Hebrew and Greek scholars writing The One Man Bible. The links provided, there is a discussion tab and people can ask him questions, he responds. He would be the one to take this up with. Please confront him, ALL words written are [verbatim] from his studies compiling The One Man Bible with footnotes; his glossary is extremely well studied too. I also am familiar with all the scriptures you wrote of however they are not in relation to the beginning>Genesis. Darn that Eve, lol, ok does that make you feel better? Just kidding, DJ. Let’s lighten up on this.🙂

      I have no issue with what the Word of God “really says.” I am going to continue and study and show myself approved. I am also very thank full in these perilous times, Dr. Morford spent his time in deep study with other scholars making the Word of God more correct, I read other versions but as late, I have yet to see a more researched Bible . I leap for joy reading this Bible and was elated to read what his studies in Genesis/ Creation of Eve reveal; finally something worthy written of women! Jesus, as I stated in my post above, was and IS an equal opportunity Messiah and “treated” women as the Son of God would!
      People are people so I am not sexist as God made them male and female. Yes of course we are different, wonderfully so.

      I Iook forward to eternity when there will not be male or female, all one Glorifying our Creator. Hope you agree, bless you~

      • BTW, I never called Paul or anyone a sexist, no joke!
        (except my former husband, are you?)🙂

  20. Correction: DJ, please forgive your scriptures posted still all relate, just not to the creation of Eve=before the fall.
    I ask you, who has the greater responsibility?
    A man loving his wife as Christ died and gave himself for HIS church, HIS bride. Yes, submission is essential too, just as in submitting to Christ daily, obeying. The scriptures are clear enough on both roles, but men lording over a woman and treating them as property is never what was really written as submission! Husbands are to love their wives’ into submission as Jesus does us, does HE not?

    This I believe the jest of this discussion, young widows being treated without dignity because of their plight; coming from an historical Biblical time, yet can still apply today. Bless you~

  21. John,

    See the last line of that chapter, which ends a continuous thought or discourse which began many verses above.

    ” However, in my opinion, she will be happier if she remains unmarried, and in saying this I think I have God’s Spirit according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God” (NKJV).

    “This is my opinion [perspective; judgment], but I believe I also have God’s Spirit [C Paul affirms he is speaking for God]” (Expanded Translation).

    “However, in my opinion, she will be happier if she remains unmarried, and in saying this I think I have God’s Spirit” (CJB).

    You decide, remembering this –

    “The hearing ear and the seeing eye —
    Adonai made them both” (Proverbs 20:12).

    • ok, so

      suppose the widow you describe in 1 cor 7:40 is a younger widow….

      HERe in 1 Cor 7:40 that you quote, the widowed woman should not remarry, and the holy spirit told him this

      but in 1 Tim 5, the younger widow is considered as a gossip, wanton against christ, as they desire to marry, having condemnation, and following after satan.

      he heard from the holy spirit both times?

  22. I think you need to reply to my question.

    • what question?

      I am just trying to show how scripture can be misread?

      this is a people problem , not a holy spirit problem.

      • Well you are making your point with your first thought!

        “My Thoughts

        I think this passage is sexist, and hostile to virtuous, widowed, young women.”

        Congratulations for setting yourself up as da fool (Proverbs).

        Where (specially) is Scripture written in the “flesh” and by the Spirit?

        This question has yet to be answered. Maybe because it would spoil your fun; purpose in posting your “sexist” thoughts.

        I think there is more of a problem when we read Scriptures not led by the Sprint but by our flesh.

        The “sexist” Apostle Paul gave Timothy this sound advise (no doubt inspired by The Spirit):

        “Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things” (2nd Timothy 2:7).

        Seems some missed that sound spiritual advise from the “sexist” Apostle Paul.

        I think the key to Paul and interpretation of Scriptures is within Revelation 2:18-29, but I’m waiting upon the Lord.

        Blessings
        Psalm 25

        • I am not a fool..

          maybe you are sexist, and want young widows mistreated and slandered.

          maybe you SHOULD wait upon the LOrd and wake up to what is written..

          and realize that paul had a thorn in his flesh even though he was led by the spirit , at least for most of what he wrote.

          I bet the thorn was his negative attitude toward women

  23. You don’t understand the problem.

    • what do you think the problem is?

      I present topics that get people to think, and realize there is more there than what seems to be written.

      this leads to debate.

      this is meant to hone debate skills.

      if we cannot explain and defend our views to other believers, then how do we expect to witness to unbelievers who will challenge us?

      if you think it is me, I play the devil’s advocate sometimes, ( but not for real), to show you the different responses you can expect from challenging persons you may have to witness to.

  24. Hi,

    My reply from Genesis was from Strong’s Hebrew translation. It is as clear as anyone can read. You posted some theologian’s interpretation.

    Gen. 3:16

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”

    Rule. H4910 (Strong) משׁל, maw-shal’

    A primitive root; to rule: – (have, make to have) dominion, governor, X indeed, reign, (bear, cause to, have) rule (-ing, -r), have power.

    Peter also is writing this for a reason, it is a spiritual matter.

    “Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered” (1st Peter 3:7).

    Weaker: (as a negative particle) and the base of G4599; strengthless (in various applications, literally, or figuratively and morally): – more feeble, impotent, sick, without strength, weak (-er, -ness, thing).”

    The Word (in its original language) speaks for itself.

    Wonder want Jesus meant when he referred to tolerating Jezebel in the church?

    “Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

    I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds” (Rev. Chapter 2).

    No theologian can discern that either.

    Blessings

  25. I love everyone – just hate the demons which oppress the mind and damage the spirit. Best to pray the light of Heaven comes to dispel the darkness – they don’t like that affect at all.

    But, I have issues with witches (male/female) and voodoo queens and kings who harm the flock. Same prayer for the Light makes them very afraid. They can feel it.

    Also. I despise those who with purpose, twist Scriptures (Psalm 64 and Psalm 1). They usually speak on Sunday mornings, or set in small bible groups, adding levin to the Bread, squelching the Spirit.

    Also, I really dislike wolves in sheep’s clothing – met a few by the smell of their breath (words).

    Women are wonderful, designed by God for a purpose – to give Him glory.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

  26. Susan,

    The jest of this discussion has its roots within this statement from the author,

    “My Thoughts

    I think this passage is sexist, and hostile to virtuous, widowed, young women.”

    How can the author come to understand this passage or lead a discussion of this passage when she labels Paul a sexist?

    So now, Paul “the sexist Apostle” writes to the church as if his words were snake venom, poisoning the church with sexism.

    How does anyone discuss the text unless we address the root cause of the problem?

    Where (specially) is Scripture written in the “flesh” and by the Spirit?

    This question – for the author, Marianne, is this:

    What portions of Scriptures (be specific) are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which ones are not?

    She presumes that Paul is writing this passage in the flesh (sexism). Where else in Scriptures does she have issues with sexism and da flesh put into Scriptures? Hummmm?

    Then, as we proceed theses past few days, low and behold – we discover more sexism!

    Peter offers “sexist” words?

    “You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered” (1 Peter 3:7).

    Weak physically – nope. It is a spiritual matter, if the man is a man of God and not an Ahab baby, twisted by the spirit of Jezebel (Revelation 2:18-29).

    Was Solomon writing from a “sexist” (flesh) mindset, or a nomadic, Arabic mindset Influenced by one of his wives? Marianne seems to think so.

    The wisdom given to Solomon by Almighty God:

    “A foolish woman is clamorous; She is simple, and knows nothing. For she sits at the door of her house, on a seat by the highest places of the city, to call to those who pass by, who go straight on their way:

    “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here”;

    And as for him who lacks understanding, she says to him, “Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.”

    But he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of hell” (Proverbs 9:13-18).

    Maybe “sexist” Paul had Solomon’s “sexist” Proverb 9:13-18 in mind (flesh) when Paul wrote the passage regarding the care of widows, young women?

    I think there is more of a problem when we read Scriptures not led by the Sprint but by our flesh.

    The “sexist” Apostle Paul gave Timothy this sound advise (no doubt inspired by The Spirit):

    “Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things” (2nd Timothy 2:7).

    Seems some missed that sound spiritual advise from the “sexist” Apostle Paul.

    I think the key to all of this is within Revelation 2:18-29, but I’m waiting upon the Lord.

    Blessings
    Psalm 25

    • you never explained why paul said one thing in corinthians and the opposite in timothy.

      I said solomon was sexist because he had 600 wives….and he blames women for the evil behavior of men, and does not hold men responsible for their own behavior.

      and you use solomon to justify paul

      you have not supported your position….yet

    • paul may be an apostle, but he was not jesus and not perfect.

      prove how his comments were NOT sexist

      • Dearest Marianne,

        “Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things” (2nd Timothy 2:7).

        I’m done with this page….for now.

        Rev. 2:18-29 has my interest.

        Blessings
        Psalm 25

        • I have, which is why I wrote the post.

          so consider what is pointed out IN the post.

          and I repeat the question,

          do you really think the holy spirit told paul that young widows should be shunned as condemned, gossips, tattlers, busybodies, going after satan, having damnation?

          and that only older women over 60 years old are true widows?

      • Marianne,

        Here we go again.

        You never answer my question. But I’ve given mine a few minutes ago, above.

        So now, you want proof from me that Paul was not or is not sexist?

        Hummmm? Okay. One last time.

        Jesus must’a made a mistake saying the Spirit will lead them to all Truth (John 16:13).

        Oh no!

        Jesus didn’t consider their sexist mindset (flesh), so the flock (at the beginning), was left with a mixed bag of flesh (sexist) and Spirit led writing/preaching, establishing His Church with more doubts than truth because of men’s perceived hangups.

        I trust Jesus.

        We don’t know what being filled with the Spirit, being led to all truth is like today.

        It was Constantine, Luther and Baptists (denominations) that put sexism and theology into “religion” when religion is caring for widows and orphans (James 1:26-27).

        Blessings

        • Yes you are correct about religion= sexism that has carried over to the church to this day…

        • that is NOT an answer…..

          that is avoiding the question.

          do you really think the holy spirit told paul that young widows should be shunned as condemned, gossips, tattlers, busybodies, going after satan, having damnation?

          and that only older women over 60 years old are true widows?

          yes jesus considered the flesh, which is why he told them to walk in the spirit, NOT the flesh..

          however, this does not mean they were 100% in the spirit at all times…..

          the holy spirit is supposed to be with you too. are YOU 100% in the spirit at all times??

          • I again am referring to tradition and lost translation when Constantine stepped in and messed w/ scripture and forced people to accept his religion, Roman Catholicism. If this is truly indeed the real translation of what Paul wrote; it should be deleted as personal opinion has no place in God’s Word, amen?
            I hope this brings you the comfort you deserve.

          • II Peter 3:16
            As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

            So Peter says that Paul’s writings are “Scripture”. That should be the end of the debate.

            Here you are almost 2,000 years later and you are still wrestling with Scripture.

          • Marrianne, You keep taking Scripture out of context. You are taking one sentence without regard to the sentences before and after. This is not how we are meant to study Scripture.

            Here is the context;

            But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. 9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, 10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. 16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. 1 Tim. 5:8-16

            Notice in verse 11 he says that “when they wax wanton against the Lord they will marry.” Yet in verse 14 he says they SHOULD marry. Do you think this is a contradiction?

            It isn’t.

            He is talking about them marrying when they have made a committment to work for the Church. Evidently this is not charity but payment for labour.

            He is also warning us that they should not be idle, gossips, and busybodies. What do you think people are who sit around and watch soap operas, or read romance novels?

            No, I agree with Peter and Paul. Paul’s writings are Scripture, inspired of the Holy Spirit, and the unlearned and unstable still attack them to this day!

            • younger widows are slandered…..period…

              maybe peter did not read everything Paul wrote.

              this was concerning paul’s contact with the hebrews…not gentiles

    • DJ,
      I don’t know what the issue is, maybe you are tired? The quotation marks above concerning Paul are NOT from my posts. I wrote nothing of Paul at all in this entire discussion, nothing. Again,for the record I believe the entire Word of God is inspired, But, I repeat> mis-translation and the tradition of man cause error.
      Please address the one who quoted about Paul,
      I have no issue w/ what Paul wrote. but> As a very young woman and divorcee(Biblically allowed) w/ a young child yrs. ago; my experience, I was shunned by the church I attended, served and supported diligently for 6 yrs. many yrs. ago. I had no choice and made the right one for my son to divorce. To this day I still live with the after affects.
      Praise God my life is solely HIS. Jesus is my husband, yes I submit, and HE loves me!!!

      Please when you are feeling better, take the time and re-read what I & others’ posted.

      The compassion of others,’ widows, who experience the same esp. when one is young and desirable. I believe this post is about compassion. Are you married now? Just wondering, many of us spill our lives’ on these pages, so not being nosey, don’t get what you are in turmoil about.

      This post[ for me] speaks about the needy, poor, widows, forgotten, young, disabled,old, yes, men too. The church does not care for, or does it? This is what I have learned in this debate and now understand why Marianne picks the subjects she does. We are a body of believers here. God made us all so unique, so we all have something to give and learn from, amen?

      Paul wrote If we have not love, we are nothing…

      As far as The One New Man Bible, you owe it to yourself. to follow the link provided. I certainly have from learned from you, we are all so unique..,

      I only posted from Genesis 2 not 3, before the fall.
      Is not Strongs written by theologian’s? Of course it is; I have one also.

      The One New Man Bible 2011 is more accurate and in depth with 20+ yrs. of study w/ Hebrew Greek scholars I am just getting familiar with and pray for guidance and questions too. I cannot help it if you don’t like what Dr. William Morford researched on Eve w/ Hebrew, Greek, scholars’? Please, check it out, ask him. We learn from each other here do we not? Enough said…
      TY Marianne for the clarity on why you have this site. For many of us this is practically our only fellowship. Somehow I feel a deeper closeness to the ones. here…

      [If you study the Jezebel spirit you are writing about, it is not gender based.]

      * I too love you and pray you get rest and are free of oppression. In Jesus name I pray.

      • susan

        he does not know where I am coming from.

        he is not a female, and has not been discriminated against.

        I have been a widow for 35+ years and I see this discrimination all the time that you describe.

        and I was never the young widow that Paul describes….I maintained purity, worked as a single mom, and took care of my kids, because no one wanted to help or have any part of me.

        the holy spirit could not have inspired paul to write that passage.. paul just interjected that opinion as he was writing..I agree that most of what Paul says is fine….just once in a while he makes a jab at women… he makes other comments too, like women should be quiet in church and should not speak or teach…..

        • Marianne, when one lives it, one knows it. Thank you for sharing your heart felt life Marianne. I know you better and respect you more. My experience is somewhat similar and of course I am a woman.

          I regret to say I did not study this verse or writing of Paul’s in detail in dispute. I was just seeing so much more personally; my great grandmother’s forced marriage, age 14, my life etc. which is how I express.
          This is why I said the scriptures could be truly lost in translation of the history and tradition of men through history, it is a fact. There is a group of Christians, as you likely know reject all of Paul’s writing; after much prayer, I do not believe this and again I have not researched detail, but believe The Word is the Word of God, but there can be error,is error So I agree w/ you on the error; as far as speaking in church this had to do w/ women and men sitting in[ this ]congregation apart from each other, so the women would shout to their husband’s what does this mean? > The original meaning, this is fact. There is so much through the yrs. and through history w/ losing the original meaning in scriptures, Paul’s is an example, I too believe it is not in context of Jesus and HIS love for all; HE showed by HIS life, women were equal in HIS eyes, was there any example of Jesus that shows otherwise? I don’t read a lot of the O.T except for Psalms, proverbs, but am studying it slowly again with “The One New Man Bible.” Dr. Morford is in his late 80’s and has a true Biblical understanding of women thoroughly researched w/ his scholars. A real labor of love!
          The point I want to make is; the OT and the treatment of women, well the 1st time I read it’s entirety yrs. ago, it as almost like a trashy novel. I was sickened by what I read, this version is helping me though it is still difficult for me.

          Jesus, our God is Not dominating. We are free to come to HIM, domination is not of God. Domination is not even close, but the [opposite] w/ how a husband is to treat his wife, as Christ our perfect example Loves HIS church>bride this is sacrificial Love; not the flesh of man treating women as property or worse. This mindset still carries over today; human trafficking is a perfect example happening right now.
          Bless you Marianne, we have Jesus as our perfect husband, as we rely on HIM.

  27. that is exactly what i was trying to get across to people by using first corinthians chapter 7. paul specifically states he is speaking by permission, anyone that looks at this chapter should easily understand that. even in the last verse 40;but she is happier if she so abide,after my judgement; and i think also that i have the spirit of god. ( when paul states;after my judgement. people really need to stop right there and understand that it is paul’s own belief. there is no hidden mystery in this chapter. so did paul speak sometimes with his own opinion yes.

    • I am glad you noticed that “my judgment” and pointed that out.

      • To All,

        1st Corinthians 7:40 is an example of the big question.

        What portions of Scriptures do you think are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which ones are not?

        Peter’s letters? Paul’s? James’ letter?

        Are the letters considered Holy Scriptures or commentary?

        We have an issue by some with Timothy chapter 5, which is the text of this page.

        Let’s add to this survey Scriptures (Proverbs, Song of Solomon) are these inspired verses?

        This passage from 1st Corinthians 7 has emerged as a source to affirm “opinion” is inserted within a letter that is Holy Scriptures.

        http://legacy.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7&version=NKJV

        ”…and in saying this I think I have God’s Spirit according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God” (1st Corinthians 7 NKJV).

        “… but I believe I also have God’s Spirit [C Paul affirms he is speaking for God]” (1st Corinthians 7 Expanded Translation).

        “…and in saying this I think I have God’s Spirit” (1st Corinthians 7, CJB).

        Some folks think very word/verse of Scripture is inspired by The Spirit.

        I do.

        Some folks think the flesh (“sexist” Paul) includes opinion/commentary within pages of Spirit inspired Scriptures.

        Paul writes:

        “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16).

        But not all. Which ones?

        Peter and Paul were His disciples (many are called but few chosen), filled with the Spirit to preach and teach, minister and lead.

        Peter writes:

        “Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:14-16, NKJV).

        The same passage above in another translation:

        “So, beloved, since you are expecting these things, be eager to be found by Him [at His coming] without spot or blemish and at peace [in serene confidence, free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].

        And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation (that which is conducive to the soul’s safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him,
        Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures” (Amplified Translation).

        These are the words of David who had a few wives, and some sin issues. He was not filled with the Holy Spirit.

        “Now these are the last words of David. David the son of Jesse declares, The man who was raised on high declares, The anointed of the God of Jacob, And the sweet psalmist of Israel, “The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue” (2nd Samuel 23:1-2).

        Marianne writes:

        “the holy spirit could not have inspired paul to write that passage.. paul just interjected that opinion as he was writing..I agree that most of what Paul says is fine….just once in a while he makes a jab at women… he makes other comments too, like women should be quiet in church and should not speak or teach…..”

        Let the discussion continue…..

        Blessings
        Psalm 1

        • dj; paul states in verse 6; BUT I SPEAK THIS BY PERMISSION : AND NOT OF COMMANDMENT. END QUOTE. that is rather obvious that it is paul’s opinion or advice. if there was no difference from holy spirit speaking and paul speaking, PAUL would have not said “by permission”.

        • 2 Timothy 3:16 was written by Paul, so naturally he would say that about his own writing.. no one else said that.

          and YOU think the holy spirit said this???????:

          younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

          12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

          13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

          15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

          If you do think the holy spirit said that, then you are sexist as Paul is.

          I will have you know that I was a “young widow” for 35 years….and THAT description never once applied to me….

          so either paul wrote a lie about me

          or the holy spirit did (according to you).

          Apparently, being a male, you have never experienced sex or age discrimination in a church..

          males get favor in a church, even if they are openly adulterous.

          but single women are condemned, even if they are innocent

        • DJ and Don,

          Thought I would send this to both of you since it applies to both, even if in different ways. Yah made a distinction between clean and unclean from the beginning, but that has been unceremoniously overturned, following the death of Messiah and the Apostles, the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews. Following these events, pagan Gentile Emperors and Kings decided what was and wasn’t relevant in the Word of Yah. But to be thorough, the oral rabbinical writings (the traditions of man) of the Jews also added to and took away from the Word of Yah. Hasatan has done everything he could to pull us away from the truth given in the beginning.

          I go back to what was written a while back. I know this comes across as Sunday school material, but believe me, it is not. It has rather become hasatan’s modus operandi, if you will. The fact that in the garden Yah set up His standard for man to walk in a manner that was pleasing to Him-the Tree of Life-The Torah;

          Proverbs 3:13-19 – Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. SHE IS A TREE OF LIFE to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

          “A prayer recited when the Torah scrolls are placed back into the ark in a Synagogue service, is Etz Chayim He, “It is a Tree of Life:”

          “It is a tree of life to those who take hold of it, and those who support it are praiseworthy. Its ways are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace. Bring us back Lord to You, and we shall come, renew our days as of old.”

          But Yah also set up the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a mix and mingling of that which is both good and evil. We know that the Tree of Life brought Life and that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought death.
          I think many believe that now we, as Yah’s people, have the Bible and that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might be here, but doesn’t affect or influence us anymore if we just stay in the scripture. But is that simplistic understanding true? I don’t really believe so.

          As was told before, hasatan approached the two people in the garden taking the Word of Yah and twisting and changing it. Yah gave the truth in the beginning and warned the two about deviating from it; to basically eat only of the Tree of life-which brings life, and stay away from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-which brings death. They (the two trees) were both allowed to be there by Yah. It is important to realize and understand the implication of that. We know that the woman was approached by hasatan, who refuted the Word of Yah and told the woman she would not die, but rather partaking of the forbidden fruit would make them wiser. The woman looked and saw that the tree was good for food, pleasant to the eyes (senses), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (a new and different understanding of the Word she had been told by Yah). So, she took and ate and gave it to her husband.

          That brings up a question. What corrupted the two in the garden? Was it the actual eating of the fruit or the intent of the heart to break the Word of Yah that brought death? Being tempted is not sin, but when you acknowledge it in your heart and you then you act on it (rebellion), you then receive the penalty of death. Thus, sin (rebellion) entered into the heart of man and death became a reality, and all that through disobedience to the Word, in the heart and in the flesh. Man decided to not adhere to the original word given by Yah, but a variation of it based on man’s carnal appetites and desires.

          Deuteronomy 8:2
          2″You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

          Regardless of what comes or how things seem to “CHANGE”, His Word is constant, consistent, and without change, by His own Words. Our actions are basically the result of the intent of the heart, which more time than not comes from man trying to re-explain what Yah “really” meant, for this is where it all starts.

          To prove this fact, let’s go to the verses that Don sent me that dealt with eating:

          Mark 7:14-19
          “Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

          “After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. ‘Are you so dull?’ he asked. ‘Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.’ (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)”

          Notice the last line in brackets; (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean)” Neither the early Aramaic or Greek texts have this in the text. You will find it in some translations and left out of others. It was added as commentary to pull believers of Yahshua away from the dietary instructions.

          What Messiah was saying is that something in this physical world cannot destroy you or necessarily absolve you of anything. It is the intent of the heart, coupled with what we do in the physical world that will either justify us or defile us. What Messiah is saying here is that you are not defiled when you eat the food, it was when you purposed in your heart to eat and break His Word and then follow through with the action, that you were defiled. It was the breaking of His Word and not some unclean food that will condemn you.

          Don also sent this: “Paul also said”:

          Romans 14:14-15
          “I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
          “One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.”

          These verses don’t have anything to do with eating clean or unclean foods. What it does have to do with is one eating a restricted diet of vegetables (a vegetarian) or one who eats a full diet of meats, grains, and vegetables or any variable of this. It has nothing to do with saying that unclean foods are alright to eat.

          We can see in all of this how the Word has been twisted to pull us away from those things given in the beginning, to something new and to be desired above the instructions initially given by Messiah, to Moses, at Sinai, that would last as long as time lasted. In other words, as long as man walks this earth in the flesh, and with a spirit, Messiah the Word (Torah) and Messiah the Lamb (our sin sacrifice) will be functioning in His people, but unfortunately not all.

          We also see in Romans where Paul is talking about two olive trees, one cultivated-those who look to Messiah the Word-Torah for the Way, and have received Messiah the Lamb for their sin sacrifice. We also see that one is uncultivated-without Torah but have received Messiah the Lamb for their sin sacrifice. Is it not telling that even Paul said, those of the uncultivated olive tree must be grafted into the cultivated olive tree, giving a warning that even the natural branches had been broken off for not walking in His Way, with the same result waiting for them (the Gentiles) if they did the same.

          For brevity sake without going into much detail, we know that the Gentile believers in Messiah ultimately cast off the way of Torah, while holding to Messiah the Lamb. We also know that the Jews ultimately did the same only in reverse. Each adding to and taking away from the Word (mixing good with evil), with both at that point eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It has been that way for almost 2,000 years. But in these last days the cultivated olive tree is back, starting with the Jews around the time of Israel becoming a nation again, with those Gentiles who had reverted back to their uncultivated olive tree, starting to allow their selves to be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree. That is where we are at today. The tricks of hasatan have not changed. He is still mixing and corrupting the Word of Yah, but we are coming to understand the way of the enemy and how to combat him and not fall for his lies. If we will accept His Word as it was given in the beginning, using that to define and explain all that was written after that, we will not be deluded or confused as to what Ruach HaKodesh is telling us, in these last days!

          Shalom

    • Good answer John, thanks and bless you~

  28. Marianne,

    Until the reply you shared with Susan – you led me (by more than one reply) to believe that you where coming from two very impersonal directions.

    This is your reply to Susan:

    he [DJ] does not know where I am coming from.

    he is not a female, and has not been discriminated against.

    I have been a widow for 35+ years and I see this discrimination all the time that you describe.

    and I was never the young widow that Paul describes….I maintained purity, worked as a single mom, and took care of my kids, because no one wanted to help or have any part of me.

    the holy spirit could not have inspired paul to write that passage.. paul just interjected that opinion as he was writing..I agree that most of what Paul says is fine….just once in a while he makes a jab at women… he makes other comments too, like women should be quiet in church and should not speak or teach…..”

    The following is what you shared with me 2 days ago.

    Marianne said this on July 5, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Reply

    “I am just trying to show how scripture can be misread?

    this is a people problem , not a holy spirit problem.”

    That reply seems reasonable. But, you also wrote me this a few days ago –

    “I present topics that get people to think, and realize there is more there than what seems to be written.

    this leads to debate.

    this is meant to hone debate skills.

    if we cannot explain and defend our views to other believers, then how do we expect to witness to unbelievers who will challenge us?

    if you think it is me, I play the devil’s advocate sometimes, ( but not for real), to show you the different responses you can expect from challenging persons you may have to witness to.”

    Really? The last paragraphs is informative.

    – “if you think it is me, I play…”

    Also, I don’t think Satan and his minions need advocates.

    You wrote in the top of this page:

    “I think this passage is sexist, and hostile to virtuous, widowed, young women.

    Just because a woman is widowed, it does not make her a gossip and a slut.”

    Which led to my first reply:

    “What portions of Scriptures do you find are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which ones are not?

    Peter’s letters? Paul’s? James’ letter?”

    Marianne,

    I knew intuitively that it was a “me” issue because I do know a little bit about your early years and your thoughts on the page topic were very specific.

    Then, there is your most recent dream post – where you are in a pit with snakes, while 2 men above do not help you. It’s on your mind again – a dream from many years ago, replying emotional pain.

    Finally – it is sexist for a female to say that a male does not understand (“know where I’m coming from”) because he is a male?

    Such a statement is revealing (like the dream), requiring spiritual discernment to remove the thorn, poison, or the root, getting it out.

    I’m just looking down into the pit, observing a serious problem (issue), offering assistance.

    God bless you.
    Psalm 27

    • if you understand so well, then why do you insist that the holy spirit inspired paul to write what I quoted from 1 Tim in the posts against young widows?

      I am focused on THIS scripture to show paul was expressing his opinion, and not reflecting that of the holy spirit

      you asked for examples…so if you cannot see this one, I am not going into any others.

      there are only a few passages like this from paul….I am not saying the whole bible is like this.

      it is NOT sexist to say you dont understand when you really don’t….you are so avid in defending paul as reflecting the holy spirit in the mistreatment of women that the sexist issue is still there.

      • Marianne,

        Sure – let me be as clear, decisive as I can be. Please, read this reply to the end. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

        I’ll apply Peter’s words as he addressed Paul’s letters. Peter certainly was aware of Paul’s letters.

        Speculation rises – Did Peter read all the letters, including the ones to Timothy?

        We don’t know but Peter’s message is clear – there were problems with Paul’s letters within the Church. Peter addresses all of Paul’s letters with his statement in the passage below – collectively, inclusively.

        Peter writes,

        “There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures” (2 Peter 3:16).

        So – I believe there are spiritual reasons for Paul including his “opinion” or “commentary” (as some read them) within his writings – Paul was led by the Spirit.

        Paul wrote all his letters believing/thinking he was influenced by the Spirit.

        How can we read personal letters to Timothy – which ends up being read by millions of people around the world – without accepting, believing that Paul’s letters to Timothy was inspired by the Spirit?

        I do believe they were led by the Spirit with child-like faith.

        This includes his “judgments” or what is understood as his opinions, because of this statement one phrase – “and I think I also have the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 7:40).

        As for the specific widow issue written to Timothy –

        When I see/meet a young or old woman (or man) in need, I’ll ask the Lord to give me understanding as Paul expresses to Timothy,

        “Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things” (2 Timothy 2:7). Paul says, “in all things.”

        My first response to any request for food, shelter, clothing – supply to meet the immediate need. Why?

        “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me'” (Mathew 25:43-45).

        But, I’m seeking Him for understanding on how to proceed, longterm with the widow issue.

        This passage written by Paul seems to be addressing long term dependency upon the Church by a young woman. Again – I’m ask the Lord for understanding.

        Issues of Jezebel (manipulation, seduction) and gossip spirits (among other demonic spirits) could become a factor in their walk/life, over many months or years. I don’t know, these are spiritually discerned at the time/place.

        Of course a young man (single) who is able to work but not working, living off the contributions of Believers – would also be an issue/concern.

        There are some folks (widow or not) who can not find any employment today and no family support, so they are needing assistance.

        Next:

        All Scriptures are inspired by the Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

        This also including Peter’s letters.

        http://legacy.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter+3&version=NKJV

        “In like manner, you married women, be submissive to your own husbands [subordinate yourselves as being secondary to and dependent on them, and adapt yourselves to them], so that even if any do not obey the Word [of God], they may be won over not by discussion but by the [godly] lives of their wives…”
        (1 Peter 3:1-3, Amplified).

        “For it was thus that the pious women of old who hoped in God were [accustomed] to beautify themselves and were submissive to their husbands [adapting themselves to them as themselves secondary and dependent upon them]” (1 Peter 3:4-6, Amplified).

        Even Peter’s letter can be considered “sexist” by some folks – just as they may find Paul’s statements. I don’t find Peter’s statements a problem.

        Marianne,

        You wrote to Susan the following –

        “he is not a female, and has not been discriminated against.”

        FYI: for over 25 years I responded to charges of discrimination filed with the EEOC by employees of various large and small hospitals, which employed me in the role of EEO officer.

        I was responsible for maintaining a workplace free of discrimination, including training supervisors, managers and executives.

        Over the years, I participated in EEO mediation and conducted internal investigations (100 +\-), which established that the employer did not discriminate and the EEO charge filed by an employee was not valid. EEOC makes the final determination.

        98% of the charges were not deemed discrimination (race, sex, sexual orientation, age, religion) by my investigation/recommendation report filed and the concussion/determination by an EEOC officer, which supported those recommendations.

        The very few EEO charges that were valid – as result of an my investigation – resulted in corrective action that I initiated and was supported by the EEOC officer.

        There were a few internal claims of harassment filed by women without an EEO charge. I investigated those claims too.

        At my recommendation – men were fired, while others demoted/transferred as part of the final resolution to an internal allegation of sexual harassment without EEOC participation.

        I understand, comprehend sexism, racism (harassment and/or discrimination) based on gender -despite being a white male.

        My gender (sex) and race was never an issue with employees (to my knowledge) or the EEOC.

        Please, don’t assume that I or any male does not understand a woman’s experience of discrimination or harassment because of gender.

        Have I experienced/faced discrimination? Yes. At the time it was very disturbing to say the least. Today, I rejoice at the outcome – I am better for it, thank you Lord.

        Sexism – in this context is suggesting that a male does not understand a female’s experience of discrimination or harassment or life situation (emotionally and maybe physically painful) because of his gender (sex). If I got this paragraph definition wrong – please excuse me.

        This concludes my replies and comments to this topic and tread.

        Blessings
        Psalm 40

        • we are all led by the spirit here, as sincere believers, yet we still have opinions

          remember the ancient culture was male dominated, just as the arab portion of the middle east continues to be today…..to them, it was normal to say things about women, as it was their culture…..but by modern standards it was sexist

          peter did not say which letters he read….or if he read all of them

          while your job may have included cases of discrimination, the findings were against the women, instead of the employer…..your experience was as an outside observer, not someone who received discrimination……which can be very subtle, and hard to prove, especially when they use fake charges against the female to justify dismissal, etc

          I can tell you that what Paul said was a deep insult to any decent woman, widowed……..unless you experience this yourself, you will no understand.

  29. Thanks for your comment/reply.

    I’ve been taking a break from this page topic and your reply is soooo refreshing.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: