Rapture and Church of Philadelphia

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The hope of many is that they will avoid the tribulation, and be raptured, if they fit the description of the Church of Philadelphia.

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Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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There are a couple of issues here.

1. What is the definition of tribulation?

2. Are Christians exempt from tribulation?

3. What is the Wrath period (Day of the Lord) and how is it different from the Tribulation?

4. Is the last week of Daniel all Tribulation, or is the wrath of God (Day of the Lord) part of it?

5. What is the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth?

6. What did Jesus say about the Tribulation?

7, When does the rapture actually occur? Or is it the same as the second coming?

8. Does the white horse (1st seal) signify the beginning of the 7 year

period? Is the white horse the revelation of the Antichrist himself, or

the spirit of the antichrist that has been around for centuries?

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My personal answers (subject to change with more insight):

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1. Tribulation is sorrow, hardship and suffering, and maybe death, either due to the evil in the world, or natural events, like disease and earthquakes. It is trouble in our lives. Jesus said that in this life, we would have tribulation.

The first 5 seals of Revelation describe the common experience of the true saints for the past 2000 years, and this will continue, and intensify up to the 6th seal. This is the Lesser Tribulation.

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2. Christians are not exempt from this Lesser Tribulation, as damaging as it is. The last generation does not get special privileges, and exemptions, from being tested as all other generations.

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3. The Time of Wrath is solely for God’s enemies, the unbelieving world in general, and untested Christians (the virgins with “no oil”).

For those not ready, the Lesser Tribulation will turn into Great Tribulation (Jacob’s Trouble), mixed with the wrath of God, from which (wrath) they will be sheltered, according to Rev 12. It is the time of trumpet and vial judgments.

This will commence at the 6th seal with the great earthquake, and

signs from the sun and moon. Jesus notes in Matthew 24 that this is the moment that he comes for the saints who are ready.

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Since the woman, who was Israel, evolves into the Woman with the testimony of Jesus, needs to be protected from the wrath, she is sent into the wilderness for safety.

She experiences Tribulation, but not God’s wrath on the wicked.

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So,

Lesser Tribulation – all saints

Greater Tribulation – all untested saints, or saints without oil, plus Israel, who is positioned for salvation.

Wrath – for the unrepentant wicked of the earth

Believers present during the Greater Tribulation are protected in the wilderness from the wrath. (Rev 12)

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4. The last week is 7 years. The time of Jacob’s trouble is only 42 months, or 3 ½ years. Other events that precede the 42 months are part of the 7 years (2520 days), and is described in the Goat and Ram prophecy (Daniel 8), which spans 2300 days (6.388 years, 76.6 months), leaving a 220 day (7.3 months) threshold period.

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5. Since the “hour of temptation” comes upon the whole earth, this implies something of a shorter and more intense duration, something that one may not survive. It also indicates this affects all unbelievers, including the most wicked.

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There are 7 Churches addressed in Revelation. 5 are deficient, and need to repent. Only 2 are seen as pure before God.

1. Smyrna – Church of martyrs. These will die before the rapture.

Rev 2:9   I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:10   Fear none of those things which thou shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2. Philadelphia – remnant faithful church. This is the pure and spotless Bride, and does not include the other remaining 5 churches. This is what is raptured.

Rev 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things says he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;

Rev 3:8   I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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Timing of the rapture, or coming of our Lord, is consistent with

(1) the falling away of many believers, leaving a remnant, and

(2) revealing the identity of the son of perdition.

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This shows that all the saints are around for the Lesser Tribulation.

2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4   Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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6. What did Jesus say would happen to believers during the Lesser Tribulation?

Mat 24:5   For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (First seal – white horse)

Mat 24:6   And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Second seal – red horse)

Mat 24:7   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines (Third seal – black horse), and pestilences (Fourth seal – pale horse -death), and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mat 24:9   Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. (Fifth seal – martyrdom)

Mat 24:10   And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11   And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:13   But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Notice that believers are being persecuted, and they have to endure to the end.

If they have the “oil” of the holy spirit, this persecution stops here.

If they don’t have the oil, they enter the 42 months of Greater Tribulation.

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7. When does the rapture occur? Or is this the same as the second coming?

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:29 matches the 6th seal

It appears at this point that this is the rapture, as we meet him in the air, and it does not say that Jesus comes down to earth to defeat His enemies.

The Lord is to come to Armageddon and stop it (Zech 14:3), which has not been mentioned in the seals. Armageddon is at the 6th vial,

which is later.

Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13   And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

So Mat 24:29 = Rev 6:12 = time of rapture

At this point is also the moment the son of perdition is revealed, as he declares himself god.

2Th 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4   Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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Finally, there is a second coming, in addition to the rapture. Christ returns at Armageddon (Zech 14:3), at the end of the Wrath, with the saints, and defeats Satan and his armies. This is not mentioned in Revelation, but Zechariah:

Zec 14:2   For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 ¶ Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:4   And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

But this also brings up the questions: what are our definitions of rapture and second coming?

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Maybe the rapture IS the second coming, and the Lords’ return at Armageddon is just an event during the wrath, to complete the will of God.

Then Mat 24:29 = Rev 6:12 = time of rapture AND second coming.

Also, noteworthy in both the Lesser and Greater Tribulations, Revelation 6 points out that, for those believers who will put their trust in God, there is a place the wilderness for them, a place of refuge in times of persecution.

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8. Does the white horse (1st seal) signify the beginning of the 7 year

period? Is the white horse the revelation of the Antichrist himself, or

the spirit of the antichrist that has been around for centuries?

One should not arbitrarily make the white horse the Antichrist, and the beginning of the 7 years.

Revelation does not say that.

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While the white horse may be the antichrist spirit, it does not mean the identity of the antichrist himself has been revealed.

The spirit has been around for a long time.

Zechariah the prophet also spoke of the 4 horses (white, red, black, pale) mentioned in Revelation.

This dates the 4 horses back to as early as 522 BCE.

They are not new, or exclusively futuristic.

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Zec 6:1 ¶ And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains [were] mountains of brass.

Zec 6:2   In the first chariot [were] red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

Zec 6:3   And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Zec 6:4   Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What [are] these, my lord?

Zec 6:5   And the angel answered and said unto me, These [are] the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth

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Final note

So what is the hour of temptation that the Church of Philadelphia is saved from?

Is it saved from all trouble, or will it go through trial, before the Lord comes?

The rapture is a rescue mission. This would imply we are being rescued from something dangerous, but how dangerous is it?

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In the 3rd seal, the black horse of famine, the Lord gives an

interesting instruction to the spirit: “Do not touch the wine or the oil.”

This has deeper implications.

He is not talking about agriculture.

He is talking about people.

As ¼ of the earth dies, there is a protected group.

Is He protecting the Christians, the Jews or both? Currently, even now, there is famine in the world, but it is not affecting countries with large numbers of Christians or Jews.

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It is my hope that the Bride (Church of Philadelphia) is taken from all trouble.

But it also seems possible that she will be required to stay, not for herself, but to witness to others in trouble, and she will be protected during this time.

Then she will meet with the Lord at the 6th seal.

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The reason I say this is that most people do not turn to God unless there is trouble in their lives; and it would seem that, instead of God removing the Bride when it was needed the most, to bring others to salvation, that He would have her remain, protected, and do His work to His glory.

And during this time, she is protected in her own wilderness, so she can function according to His will.

Or……maybe she has done enough work before the 1st seal is

opened, and she is removed from all of it.

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See also:

Tribulation timeline

Goat – Ready to Fly again

The Goat and the 2300 days

 


470 Responses to “Rapture and Church of Philadelphia”

  1. The words SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN reveals that Satan is claiming he is the Jewish God of Abraham and has set up his versions of Judaism .. The synagogue of Satan is a complete counterfeit of God’s salvational work with man…He claims he is the God of Abraham. He teaches old covenant laws and practices..He also makes the claim that his followers are the real blood line of Abraham that God chose…In other words his followers are the real Jews…He topped it off with a counterfeit messiah who brings a counterfeit Gospel.. In this synagogue we see Satan’s version of the old covenant and his version of the new covenant which is koran…..The synagogue of Satan is Islam..
    We are in the hour of temptation..whereby satan is claiming he is the God of Abraham and is leading people away from Jesus..or killing them..

    • The Synagogue of Satan is the false so called Christian churches that have exisited over the years. Satan set his seat in the churches in Rev. 2:13:

      I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, egen where Satan’s seat is:

      Satan has taken over the churches and, basically, set his throne there. This could be the desolation the bible speaks about, but there will probably be a real person who is the antichrist and he will also sit in the real temple proclaiming himself to be God. Rev. always has 2 means, a physical meaning and more of a picture meaning.

      Satan wanted the churches to continue on looking like churches while he got into them, this is the falling away that had to happen before the son of perdiition is revealed. The falling away has totally happened now and is so bad, so much worse than what most people think! It’s horrible! Demons fill the churches now and they will harm you.

      Sister Kim

  2. Hello Marianne!

    I “like” the way you refer to “your” post:

    “My personal answers (subject to change with more insight):…”

    especially the part of “…(subject to change with more insight)…”!!! I “totally” agree with you on “that” part as I believe “GOD, through Jesus Christ…”, REVEALS to us what His Will truly is according to Scripture!

    However, on the above, I will have to defer to the explanation given at “PROOF DIRECTORY” as they have already provided the Scriptures necessary to interpret that which you have presented under the following headings:

    “BIBLE”…”Bible Answers”…”Section VI. The Sure Word of Prophecy”

    I have yet to find any “fallacy” with anything they have researched. Sometimes, “I” may not “remember” the “exact” wording used in Scripture and attempt to indicate that I have “paraphrased” when I do so…so please forgive me if I get something “wrong” from “time-to-time” :)

    AND…I will give you “my” thoughts on things…as they “cross my mind”…”if ya’ kno’ whadda’ mean!!!” :)

    • This blog does tend to evolve with time. So yes, I can change my mind when I discover something new.

    • Hi Bob,

      Is what you are saying above is that, when you find a passage that you are experiencing difficulty in understanding, you simply refer to an interpretation written by others as your only resource, rather than that of the Spirit?

      Hmmmm, that hasn’t necessarily worked out as being the best option to utilize for many in the past. Mormons, JW’s, Jim Jones, the Heavens Gate Bunch etc., etc.

      I’d be interested to hear what your “PROOF DIRECTORY”, specifically that of “Section VI. The Sure Word of Prophecy” has to say, why don’t you fill us in about it?

      Be Blessed

      • All you “need” to do, is go the section referenced to find out for yourself…please, never take “my” word for it! As for having “difficulty” with something…I simply said I will “defer” to the interpretation “provided” by “PROOF DIRECTORY” as “their” interpretation IS based on “Scripture” and IS VERY WELL REFERENCED! I “use” Proof Directory as I do a “Concordance” and/or a “Dictionary”…what do you use?

        “IF” YOU “think” for a moment that “I” take everything “verbatim” as written…”think” again! I DO NOT! I question everything! When I “find” something that contradicts what “I” am thinking, believe me, “I WILL POINT IT OUT!”

        “IF” YOU can find “fallacy” with any of the “interpretations” provided by “PROOF DIRECTORY”, then “PLEASE”…by ALL MEANS, bring it to “their” attention…they “WILL” revise whatever YOU find to be “false!” And fyi, “they” have!

        However, be sure of that which you find to be “false!” “MOST” ALL of the Scriptures have been “fully” scrutinized by, Thomas McElwain, in all the languages in which the Scriptures have been written…including the ancient “discontinued” languages, and whom I consider the “foremost” Christian author on Scripture in the world today! Look him up and you will find out…why!

        Don’t you “dare” include “PROOF DIRECTORY” with:

        “Hmmmm, that hasn’t necessarily worked out as being the best option to utilize for many in the past. Mormons, JW’s, Jim Jones, the Heavens Gate Bunch etc., etc.”

        Unless of course you consider yourself “God” and have already passed “judgement”, on me and them! Don’t be “afraid” to “post” YOUR findings on the forum there, it is a “free” website and requires nothing to become a “member”. Unless of course, you don’t want anyone to “critique” YOUR work as you are “irreproachable!”

        EXCUSE me Marianne, for making this “personal” but I did put a “disclaimer” with my “post”…did I NOT? btw…this IS the last I will say on the matter…period

        AND, “alienated”, if I “misunderstood” your “post”…then, “Please disregard and accept my apologizes”

        GOD BLESS!

        • Whoa Bob,

          “Yes” you did misunderstand my post. lol.
          There was nothing of a personal nature intended and I apologize that you took it that way.

          The problem with these posts is the lack of voice inflection and smiles that don’t appear to translate well. So again I apologize, in how I expressed things.

          However, by how you had expressed your thoughts, to me, suggested that the proof directory was the “be all and end all” as being the answers for every question.
          So I couldn’t help myself from questioning that.

          Of course I utilize other resources as well in my studies, yet before accepting anything either intellectually, or emotionally to heart, I leave that final decision up to the Spirit.

          Again I apologize for how you took things.

          Peace

        • What is this website …I would love to read on it???

          • No you don’t Deb.

            There is far more information here than there.
            Ask the SPIRIT to guide you.

            Read way down near the end of this post here.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our Lord and Savior.
            Praise the WORTHY LAMB.

  3. My favorite endtime studies (which I agree with) are on youtube in very short video’s.

    I highly recommend taking some time to go over some of these:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/arovir

  4. Alienated
    I hope you find this. My question for you is this, and do not take it the wrong way: Is not seeking to be rescued from the tribulation via rapture, a self serving desire (flesh)? Jesus said that “there is no greater Love than to lay down our lives for others” (Its in John’s Gospel, but I do not have time to look it up) In fact he commanded his disciples to take up their cross and follow him…To martyrdom?

    What I am saying is this, The elect, or the mature Christians will be chosen to go through the tribulation in order to reach those who are not saved, by way of testimony. The rapture being for those who are Childlike, or virginal if you will in their faith. Those who are not strong enough to resist the temptations and deceptions that would “deceive the very elect if it were possible”. Paul even said that some of those who are alive in Christ would be transformed as Christ was.

    Just some thoughts to ponder. If I am called to escape the tribulation, so be it, but if I am called to suffer as Christ suffered, I would be honored, and overjoyed to accomplish his will.

    God bless

    • Hi Dru,

      I undersatnd what it is that you are saying above, however consider just the following for example.

      “Strive” to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
      Luke 13:24

      To them who by patient continuance in well doing “seek” for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
      Romans 2:7

      But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a “rewarder” of them that diligently “seek” him. Hebrews 11:6.

      “Labour” not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. John 6:27.

      Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? “So run, that ye may obtain”.
      1 Corinthians 9:24

      So “striving, seeking and labouring” to “obtain the prize” is fine, as long as the intentions and motivations in your heart are right in the eyes of the Lord. One is to do these things as an outward expression of obidience and of their love of the Lord, not for simply what they have to gain. However, if in doing these things you are rewarded for them, then even Paul himself looked forward to receiving his own crown.

      Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8.

      Regarding what you say in your second paragraph, (as to who will be raptured and who will not), the premise that you describe is contrary to scripture, so I have to disagree. Re-read my email and the link that you posted for us and see if what you have stated above lines up at all with what is said.

      I wish that this post topic, (which is excellent) was available a couple of days ago. For I suspect that a lot of information by many, will be provided. I will return in a couple of days to see what has been said, and perhaps have something to say. (maybe I’ll bring up the topic of law just for fun.) Sorry Marianne. :-)

      Until then, May all be Blessed.

      • Alienated
        yes I saw that the post contradicted what I said. It is the only thing which I disagree with. (at least for now)

        By the way, that sight raises some excellent points, especially in the questions section. well worth the read.

        I will continue “searching” as well.

      • Marianne In my view in regards to the second advent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, there has been enough words said that if each font in every word weighed one ounce, likely a freight train with ninety seven cars would not be able to haul them to a given destination. I have been reading about the Pre-Tribulation and comparing it to the Post-Tribulation for over fifty years. I have not been able to find where the bible stipulates a seven year tribulation, neither have I found that Jesus will come in what some say two phases, in other words come twice. Some preach and teach that the first phase of his coming will be secret, only those that are absolutely ready to meet him would be caught up. To me this poses a question, what happens to the flesh and blood of those that are caught up or raptured? You will find in the following three verses that Jesus is coming exactly like he was seen when he ascended. Acts “Ch 1 Verse 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. V10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; V11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven”. The Apostle John had this to say in Rev 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Now lets look at what the Apostle Paul had to say in 1 Cor. Ch 15 V51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, V52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. V53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. V54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. In the book of St John Ch 6:39 ” V39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. V40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. V44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. V54 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The point I want to make is that Jesus is coming one time and it will be at the last trump and the last day. I will remind all that a 7 year Tribulation is Unscriptural. Blessings and happy searching.
        Earl

        • I would agree. To me he said he would return, not return twice.

          he told us in matthew we would see him after the tribulation….

          and daniel said the time of trouble would be time, times and half a time or 3.5 years

          there is a last week but it is the last half that is the tribulation

  5. Marianne

    I have been thinking about the fig tree the word says that generation shall not pass away. It shall be in their tie that Lord will come. A generation to Gods word is 70 years. Israel is 63 years old. If you subtract 63 years from a generation, you have 7 years remaining to the basic word of the fig tree parable, right? So this to me means that even though we have fought a good fight to stop our President. More than likely in Sept. or before the treaty will be signed, it would seem.

    Here is where I think it could get tricky maybe is the Hebrew calendar. I think we are in March 28th -2011 or 5997.

    According to the calendar at 6000 years we enter “Chayei Olam” or in English the Millennial kingdom.

    So it seems to me that we are on the clock for Gods coming and the beginning of the countdowns.

    Accordingly I feel that our President is a part of the Anti-Christ economic system, which I think is the G8.

    Obama

    G8=USA, UK, Russia, France, Italy, Canada, Japan, and Germany

    China, Brazil and India on the model of England and US?

    The group of eight was for a little while France created the “six” during 1975.
    Include in the six was France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK, and the USA and in 1976 Canada joined and in 1997 Russia was added making them the 8, in conjunction the European union was added they can not chair nor control by chair the meetings. They
    Are referred to as a member of states. The finance and or environment ministers meet 4 times through out the year and the states 2 times a year for annual summit meetings.

    Considering for membership additions: ==+Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa=13-3=10

    Daniel 7:7

    “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

    I believe the G8 is the muscle of the Illuminati, which they say is the (witchcraft) Phoenician council if I am getting this right. I believe this council Illuminati is also what the Catholic Church rides upon, but I don’t get why the Bible doesn’t show it as a three-ring circus.

    The women is the whoring church, cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana another black man was appointed to head justice and peace. He is a Jew from the tribe of Dan. He is believed to be the partner in this last day. When you read you read that he is not of his ancestors faith. The next is 112th pope which was spoken and recorded by “St. Malachy. He will be Peter the Roman and he will be the last pope. Who ever has the position they gave him is usually the shoe in for the position of pope.

    Dan was Jacobs 5th son, which means Pent/#5 or Pentagram and Dan also =NWO. Dan is reported to have fled to Ireland Scotland and Northern England, Northern Israel (or the same as Galilee) and from they’re the ancestors possible to be in USA.

    Daniel 16 and 17 speak of him biting and God said he would send serpents to bite him. Dan is not listed as tribe in Revelations.

    People think it is odd how the President at the same time as stabbing Israel in the back, Tornadoes show-up, the mid-west gets flooded and he told the world of the death of Osama that people wood applauded for him and some how that gives witches extra power with their sacrifices. I just wonder how stupid are they. God is on his way and they are not repenting but doing more ridiculous thinking. Do you suppose it is because of demonic possession?

    Does this seem right to you?

    • hi Pattie,

      I cannot comment on all that…but it does seem like the covenant with many is around the corner.

      • Hi to all,

        The following is all relevant to this post whether it initially appears to be so or not. I apologize for its length, however it is necessary to fully explain my point.
        I ask all of you to please read its content with an open mind.

        Regarding the word “elect” in chapters/verses such as Matthew 24:22.

        Personally I have over the years, believe that I have been led to incorporate more and more of a Messianic, Hebraic perspective to the Word.
        I mean we as Gentiles grafted into the faith, haven’t even been trying collectively to decipher scripture for 2000 years yet. (It was only when some 15 to 20 years later after Yeshua’s death, Cornelius became the very first Gentile to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.) Whereas Jews themselves have been doing this for millennia after millennia.

        Because of this, where we may initially stumble in attempting to comprehend a specific passage in the New Testament, they will breeze through it with relative ease and understand it, for it is simply the continuation of a story that they have been familiar with for thousands of years. For it is essentially for all intensive purposes, the supplied pieces to the puzzle that had been missing.

        Where I think we get messed up as a whole, is because during the Reformation, though the ideology had evolved significantly, the error of “supersessionism”, or replacement theology remained relatively intact.
        Therefore when the western denominations were established, that unfortunate ideology was maintained.
        We have simply been conditioned over the years as Christians to indentify with that specific word.
        Brain washed over the years, so to speak, with past down preconceived beliefs born from Catholic replacement theology.

        It has only come to light recently, for the westernized Church to begin to recognize the importance of incorporating the Messianic/ Hebraic perspective to scripture.
        Remember, when Yeshua spoke the word “elect” to His Jewish followers then, there was no New Testament to verify as to “who” else He could be referring too. His disciples were Jew’s that would associate the word “elect” to what was written within the Hebraic scrolls of the Tanakh. (Just like the Berean’s did.)

        I believe that you will agree, that Matthew was written by a “Jew”, to the “Jew’s”, about a”Jew.”
        In keeping with the context of the book, it’s first purpose and intention (from the introduction of Yeshua’s lineage through to His resurrection at the end), was to preach the Gospel to the Jew’s of the day.

        Therefore, the majority of Messianic congregations identify Matthew 24 as being more specifically related to the Jews that will be alive at the end of the Tribulation, during the Second Coming of Yeshua.
        (The geographical references that are made within the text appear to support this premise.)

        As I have said above, the references that would have been available at the time, (the same ones that the Berean’s used), would have only been in the scrolls, and the verses would have been;

        Isaiah 42:1 utilizes the word “elect” to refer to the Messiah.

        Isaiah 45:4 speaks of Israel being God’s “elect”.

        Isaiah 65:9 speaks of Israel as the “elect” inheriting the land.

        Isaiah 65:22 speaks of Israel as His “elect” building the Kingdom in the future new heaven and earth.

        The Hebrew transliterated word for “elect” is “Bachiyr”, Strong’s # 0972 and it’s definitions are as follows;
        “chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God) ”

        Nowhere within its definition does it include what we would refer to as the “Church” today, simply because at that time, the “church” did not exist.

        Now I am more than aware that there are those that would stop me right here and state, “The word elect there definitely is referring to the church!” However, I would ask these people in particular to continue reading, in hopes that they would understand a possible error with that association.

        What I am saying is this;

        Unless something specific has occurred to “effect change” it is only logical to assume that things remain the same. It makes no sense whatsoever, to replace the context of a previously understood “term or phrase”, and apply a completely new definition to it, without a specific reason to do so.

        So with that in mind, If one was to carry forth its original definitions, then the church wouldn’t even be considered to be what is being referred to here. For within its original context the understanding is meant to either represent the Messiah or Israel itself.
        Again, the references that would have been utilized at the time, would have only been in the scrolls of the Tanakh.
        The Hebrew transliterated word for “elect” is “Bachiyr”, Strong’s # 0972 and it’s definitions are as follows;“chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God) ” Nowhere within its definition does it include what we would refer to as the “Church” today, simply because at that time,the “church” simply did not exist.

        Yet now, it has taken on a whole new meaning? One of being solely representative of the church as we know it.

        The fact that the New Testament itself, is a continuation of the Old, and that to take the word”elect” prior to the church being either a physical or spiritual entity, as being representative of such, is the cause behind most of this confusion. Where in actuality it is more plausible that it is representative of that of Israel.
        ( Perhaps if I rephrased that last point in the following manner, it would make what it is that I am trying to convey clearer to understand.)

        “The word “elect” in referring to the church, only took effect and became reality in Jerusalem, when the Spirit of promise was given on Shavuot,(or Pentecost). But prior to that happening the word elect, rather than referring to the “church” is referring, (depending on it’s context and linguistic setting.”), as it has throughout the millennia of the Old Testament. That being either the Messiah or Israel. (see the verse above again.)

        The New Testament is simply a continuation of the Old. Definitions to identify specific individuals or groups don’t necessarily change arbitrarily “unless something occurs to effect that change”.

        Just as it took Yeshua’s actual death on the Cross, (where the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent), His subsequent resurrection, and ascension to the Father to create the New Covenant, , it took the giving of the Holy Spirit as being a necessary determining factor, to create the Church.
        Prior to that happening, since the church itself didn’t exist either physically or spiritually, how could the word elect possibly be referring to it?” Therefore, I believe that in this particular case, it isn’t.

        And if it isn’t, then it is far more likely that it is referring to the “remnant of Israel” at the end of days, AFTER the tribulation, and just before Yeshua’s second coming when He establishes the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.

        “12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

        13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown , and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.”
        Isaiah 27:12,13.

        Therefore, Matthew 24:27-31 is referring to the actual Second Coming “AFTER” the Tribulation to establish his Millenial Kingdom as well. I ask all to read this chapter with this particular mind set, and see if the pieces of the puzzle don’t all seem to fall together, and that this premise isn’t more in line with the correct context of the passages?

        Now, we also have to take into consideration, that “Paul” was also the only one that Yeshua revealed the mystery of what we refer to theologically as the “rapture” as well. This was when he went to Arabia to Mount Sinai and was “caught up” to heaven, before returning to Damascus and then heading to Thessalonica.

        Therefore, would not the logical conclusion that would be derived from this, that in every writing before Paul’s conversion and ascension to heaven, only be referring to the end of days, at the end of the tribulation, and just before Yeshua’s second coming?

        Be Blessed

        • Solid.

          • Hi “M”,

            Thanks.
            I believe that what I say above is not just some “tin foil fringe” theory, but rather a rational and logical explanation as to what the word elect there actually represents, and how and why it has been misinterpreted throughout the years.

            There are many Christians that appear to believe that after Malachi there is this page that happens to say, “The New Testament” so then that must mean that everything from that point forward is specific to the New Covenant being established, and as well, to “them.” Which isn’t the case at all.

            Yeshua was answering His disciples specific question from Matt.24:3 regarding the “end of the age”.

            Be Blessed

        • You are the one who has been ‘brain washed’. The Church is the elect!

          • Your opinion Sarah.
            Simply back it up with something of substance rather than just making disparaging remarks.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua Melech Kavod.

  6. dmcal said

    If I may again:

    Marianne said:
    “It seems strange that Yeshua spent 3 years with his disciples, and never mentioned the rapture. Then Paul, a convert, who never spent time with him, gets this message about it.”

    You mean Paul, the one who was caught up to the third heaven where he received excedingly great visions and revelations directly from the Lord, that Paul?

    ““I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. And I know that this man–whether in the body or apart form the body I do not know, but God knows– was caught up to paradise. He heard things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan, to torment me.” (II Cor.12:2-7)

    “When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:6)

    “God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.” (Acts 19:11-12)

    “One day, the evil spirit answered them, Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” (Acts 19:15)

    “Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said, “He’s alive!”
    (Acts 20;9-10)

    “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Gal.1:11-12)

    “But, when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was please to reveal his Son to me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned Damascus.” (Gal.1:15-17)

    Paul could not have done the miralces that he did and lay hands on other believers causing them to be batpized in the Holy Spirit unless he was a genuine apostle. In fact, Paul seems to be the most active and Spirit filled out of all of them. I would go as far as to say that, in regards to the names of the twelve apostles being written on the foundations of the New Jerusalem, Paul’s name will be among them and not Matthias.

    Though Paul may not have been apart of the original twelve, he did spend a lot of time in communication with the Lord and the Holy Spirit directly, even being caught up to heaven, either in vision or bodily. When the disciples lost Judas, they rolled lots to see who whould replace him, which fell to Matthias, but I believe that the Lord had in mind who would replace him, which was Paul.

    dmcal

    • dmcal said

      In addition, if anyone was to question the validity of Paul’s apostleship, there is definitely sufficient proof to backup his genuiness and authority. For, prior to Paul’s conversion, he was proud of his heritage, his standing among his peers, circumcised on the eighth day, belonging to the people of Israel, from the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, in regards to the law, a pharisee, as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

      Paul would not have thrown all that away only to turn around and put himself in the same position as Stephan who was stoned and the church that he was presecuting. His transformation alone shows that he had a real encounter with the risen Lord.

      There are People who claim that Paul was a false apostle and a liar. They have even written a book entitled, “The Problem with Paul.” Paul would not have put himself in continual jeopardy day and night, year after year, by pretending to be an apostle. Being circumcised, a Pharisee, from the tribe of Benjamin, legalistic and anything else that he demeeded of worth, Paul said, “But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.”

      To respond to your comment, yes, I do think that God would entrust Paul with the information regarding the catching away (rapture) as well as the insight to our being saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law and many other valuable truths that were disclosed through him and I say, Amen for that and praise be to God for all that he revealed through Paul.

      dmcal

      • dmcal

        I am not saying that there was anything wrong with Paul. I am asking why ONLY he would have special information denied to the others.

        Maybe it is possible that the “catching away” he referred to was the same “second coming” he described to the other disciples.

        so maybe there is only one event, not two.

        • I was wondering the same thing.

          Still, to win this ‘race’, we need to watch, not only the events in the world, but more so our own hearts and souls and their state. What spirit we are of. Crucial. Knowing that God leads and we will follow Him. Jesus speaks to us and we will hear Him. His Spirit will light up in us.

          My ‘fear’ is not so much going through a tribulation, but it is being deceived. Knowing that we can only secure our own salvation by trusting God, then being living sacrifices TO Him, no matter what our calling. For some reason, I think that it is more simple than this. TRUST. Thank you for these posts! :)

          Blessings
          Lisa

          • Lisa
            Where your treasure is, there your heart is as well. The more you treasure God’s kingdom the less you will be Deceived by Satan’s.

        • Hi Marianne,

          In regards to Paul being the only one to receive the information regarding the catching away (rapture), we could also ask the question as to why Paul is the one who includes it as belonging to the Day of the Lord (1Thes.5:1-3). Because prior to that, it was only known as a day of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. No where in the OT, (that I know of of anyway), will you see any mention of the catching away and the day of the Lord being shown as a blessing. I believe that is why when Paul is describing this event, he says, “Look, I show you a mystery.” A mystery is something that was previously not known, hidden, which Paul obviously received directly from the Lord.

  7. Marianne,

    My understanding is that the twinkling of an eye moment happens in Rev. 10:7 at the 7th trumpet. It says there that the mystery should be finished. Paul also called this “rapture” or twinkling of an eye moment a mystery. This is when the bride goes to be with Jesus.

    Sister Kim

    • hi kim

      well, that is one view. Some think the rapture is before the 1st seal. Others think it is at the 6th seal. And you think it is at the 7 th trumpet.

      I hope it is soon.

      • “Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said, “He’s alive!”
        (Acts 20;9-10)

        Did anyone catch the humor in the above verse? LOL

        I laughed so hard when I read this and realized what was going on…..poor paul had talked this guy to death and had to bring him back by means of the Holy Spirit! LOL

        “dont’ be alarmed”…(its ok its ok…HS will bring him back….LOL)

        • I think it is funny that Paul put the young man to sleep with his sermon to begin with.

          Makes you think the holy spirit took a 15 minute coffee break while Paul was speaking, and then had to come back and fix the mess.

  8. Marianne,

    Don has made another post regarding this, that ended up being posted alone by itself somehow? Could you please…. “rapture” it here where it belongs.

    Now, I think that to fully understand the distinct differences between TWO separate events, is to look at it all from a different angle. Instead of trying to discover as to when they will occur, rather, attempt to understand the reasoning for the “wrath and tribulation” itself.

    When one comes to the understanding that it is to convince the people of the world to “repent, accept and worship God and Yeshua as their Savior”, then what would be the necessity for those that already, “accept and worship God and Yeshua as their Savior”, to have to go through it?

    What would be the point?

    Be Blessed.

    • Alienated, Marianne
      If as you say the elect are taken pretrib. (I am not denying the pretrib rapture, only who goes), who is it that will almost be deceived by the works of the false prophets (Matt 24:15-27)?

      To perhaps answer the question you posed above: “What would be the necessity for those…to have to go through the it (tribulation)?”

      My reply: to be a witness to those who do not know, and to Proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations. (Matt 24:14)

      The sixth seal then talks of the gathering of the elect. Matt 24:31.

      Mark 13:9ff adds to this fifth seal. “But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in Synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings FOR MY SAKE, to bear witness before them. 10. and the gospel must be proclaimed to all nations. 11. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, Do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT.”
      Now Does that sound like someone who is immature in their faith, Or someone who is Elect and Mature in their faith?

      Now, If you believe in the pretrib rapture, and you believe that the elect will be raptured, then, you must also believe that the first five seals occur before the tribulation. Or if you believe that all the seals are part of the tribulation, then the rapture must be Mid trib (sometime after the Abomination, during the sixth seal).
      But, If you believe that the elect are not raptured, but rather those who are “less mature” or “virginal” are raptured pre trib, then the events make more sense. Read the section on the cost of discipleship Luke 14:25-33. Compare that with what mark said regarding the fifth seal. Would God not spare the “little children” of the faith, and let those who are the “elect” do his work in the time of tribulation. This to me seems more in line with God’s mercy throughout history.

      I will leave with this question that Jesus himself poses: “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” Luke 18:8b

      What is the reward you seek in your hearts? If it is salvation from hardship, then you need to examine your heart. The cost of discipleship is high. Are we willing to “pay the price”? This is the question we should be asking ourselves, if we want to understand the end times.

      • Dru,

        I know where you are trying to go with this, but lets take a logical and scriptural approach it shall we?

        To answer your first question where you say,”who is it that will almost be deceived by the works of the false prophets.?”
        (Matt 24:15-27)

        In my humble opinion, that could only be those that are left here that experience the tribulation, that weren’t “caught up” in the rapture event. My reason for this conclusion is simply because those that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and maintain Divine relationship, can not be deceived by a false Christ or Prophet.

        Where I make the comment,” What would be the point”, and you say” My reply: to be a witness to those who do not know, and to Proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations. (Matt 24:14)”
        I will offer you this. What is written in Matthew 25:1-13 is describing the selection process of who it is that will be found worthy to be betrothed to Yeshua.

        These are those that to the best of their abilities,(and the Father knows their heart’s) have maintained relationship,
        (He Knew Them) and have witnessed for Yeshua, and preached the word, and fulfilled all of their earthly requirement that were asked of them. Because of this, this will be their reward. The first glorious prize.
        The ones that are left did not accomplish these tasks that were asked of them, so now they have another chance to do it, and prove their worthiness during the tribulation.
        What you are trying to propose here, is that the ones that didn’t even bother to express their faith or spread the word during their lifetime, get to be Yeshua’s bride, and the ones that accomplished all that was asked of them to the best of their individual capabilities get instead to experience the tribulation.

        If that’s the case, I think that I am heading down to the bar, and my 20 years of celibacy is over. lol.

        Think about where you are trying to go with this?
        I can’t even comment on anything else that you ask until you at least get this aspect understood.

        Be Blessed

        • They get to experience the transformation, not just the tribulation. Is this not what Paul was looking forward to in I corinthians 15:50-58?
          Your response sounds like the parable of the day laborers. You are upset that those who worked a half a day still got a days wages. Even though you will receive the days wages you agreed to work for. You are upset because he is showing his mercy. It puts a whole new spin on those “who have been given more, more will be expected.” This is why the cost of discipleship is high. And we must weigh it carefully.

          Hey, I would love it if it were the other way. And perhaps it is? But for some reason, it seems like the whole bible points to this. Will the son of Man find faith on the earth? Mature faith? The kind of faith the apostles had. Which was not afraid to suffer for the Kingdom of God. It ain’t exactly a good marketing tool for increasing church membership!!LOL! I do not even know if I will be able to make that decision when the time comes.

          My encouragement comes from Luke 18:26-30
          “Those who heard it said, ‘Then who can be saved?’
          27. But [Jesus] Said, ‘What is impossible with men is possible with God.’
          28. And Peter said, ‘see, we have left our homes and followed you.’
          29. And He said to them, ‘Truly, Isay to you, there is noone who has left house or wife or brother or parents or children, For THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD,
          30. who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.’”

          See also Matt 19:16-30 Verse 30 is an additional comment not found in Luke. “But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

          It then is explained in the Parable of the laborers in the vineyard which I began my comments with. Matt 20:1-16. We all have the same reward, whether we work all day or just a few hours. Jesus says, “Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you BEGRUDGE my Generousity?” (verse 15)

          Remember the cross, and from where we were before our salvation, deserving only death. WE deserve, nor earn nothing apart from his salvation, and grace. Our Joy, and reward comes from our relationship with him.

          Every time I look to the cross and remember His love, my desire is to do his will. Whereever he leads, I will follow, for whatever my circumstance, or tribulation, He is there.!!

        • Alienated
          You say you know where I am going with this. Enlighten me please. I do not even know where I am going with this line of reasoning.

          I Guess what I am saying is I have know “motive” for this line of reasoning, except ‘Epignosis’.

          • Hi Dru,

            Yes “Epignosis” as opposed to simple “Gnosis” is what we are all seeking. You know where you were going though. For I was able to respond to it.

            Wishing you the best, and the Spirits guidance in your studies.

            Be Blessed

            • Your statement makes no sense.
              “you know where you were going though. for I was able to respond to it.”

    • Alienated, Marianne
      Add to what i said above I corinthians 15:50-58. The twinkling of an Eye stuff brought up by Kim, at seventh trumpet. These are the elect.

    • Alienated, Marianne
      I should add that Matt24:31 talks of the elect being gathered. It does not say WHERE they will be gathered to. We assume heaven, or perhaps Israel or to meet him in the air? That is another unanswered question. Mark says they are also Gathered from heaven (Mark 13:27). Again, it does not say where they are gathered to.

      • Hello Dru, Alienated and all,

        In regards to the elect who are being gathered in Mt.24:31, this is synonymous with the parable of the “Wheat and Tares.” Those that are being gathered are not representing those who are caught up, but are living people who will have made it through to the end when Jesus returns to the earth. What it doesn’t mention in Mt.24:31 is that, first the weeds will have been gathered by the angels(one taken), after that, the elect will be gathered which are the wheat (one left). Notice in the parable that it says regarding the angels at the end of the age, “First collect the weeds.” After that, the wheat is gathered and brought into his barn.

        • Hi Don,

          Hope that you are having a good night.

          Could you please take a look at my post at the what is now the bottom of the thread. Please look at the definitions to “taken” and “left” in Greek.

          Be Blessed

  9. Also, may I have your permission to copy and paste the “all” the relevant information regarding this, from what we discussed from the earthquake post?

  10. Raptured comment

    Hello all,

    Marianne, in regards to Mt.24:30-31, that it is not referring to the catching away (Rapture), but is representing the “End of the Age,” which is when Jesus returns physically to the earth to establish his millennial kingdom, the proof can be found in the verse itself as seen below:

    “As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. ‘Tell us,” they said, ‘when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and the END OF THE AGE?’ ”

    Where the resurrection and catching away is an event which takes place with the church, dead and alive, prior to Jesus’ return to the earth. The end of the age takes place after that last bowl judgment is poured out with Jesus returning to put and end to human government and to set up his millennial kingdom. So, the disciples question in the verse above identifies that it is the end of the age that is in view and not the catching away of the church.

    The reference to sending his angels out to gather his elect, is not in reference to the elect being caught up, for there is nothing mentioned about angels gathering us at the resurrection and catching away, but it is synonymous with the parable of the “Wheat and Tares.”

    Those who are being gathered are those saints who are still alive, who will have made it through to the end when Jesus returns at the end of the age, that is, the bringing in of the wheat into his barn. These people will be going into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth.

    dmcal said this on June 1, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    Raptured to this page by Marianne

    • hi dmcal

      Wouldn’t you think a rapture would create the “end of the age?”

      We don’t have a true definition of it except that it is “after the tribulation?”

      Does it say the end of the age occurs at the last bowl? It says “it (wrath) is finished, but does this mean it is the end of the age?

      Anyhow, if Jesus was talking directly to his most devoted followers (the Bride), and indicating that they, or people like them, were still around at the 7th bowl, that is very dismal news.

      Marianne said this on June 1, 2011 at 5:54 pm

      • Hi Marianne,

        I work night shift, so I just woke up, still groggy. Hope your day is going well. The end of the age or as the KJV has it, “End of the World” is identified in other Scripture, but let’s look at the parable of the wheat and the tares:

        “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom
        everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

        The end of the age has to do with the end of man’s current government on earth and the beginning
        of Christ’s millennial kingdom as seen in Daniel when he is revealing to Nebuchnezzar all of the world ruling kingdoms that will appear on the earth, the feet with ten toes made of iron and partly baked clay being the last
        kingdom before Christ’s millennial kingdom and the one that will be existing during God’s wrath.

        “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be
        left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.” (Dan.2:44). I suggest to read all of Daniel 2 for the full understanding.

        Notice that the verse above says, “God’s kingdom will crush all those kingdoms” and ” it will not be left to another people.” In other words, when Christ’s
        kingdom comes, it brings an end to human government, which will never be reestablished.

        When the resurrection and catching away takes place, it is not the end of the age because God will still be pouring his wrath out following that event, which will lead up to the end of the age which is synonymous with the Lord’s physical return to the earth when he decends at Armegeddon as described in Rev.19:11-21. At that point he has the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire, Satan is locked up in the Abyss and all of those kings, generals, their armies, their horses and those tares (one taken) that will have been brought there by the angels will be killed by the doubled-edged sword that procedes from the Lord’s mouth, which is the word of God (Rev.19:11-21). The birds that were previously called by the angel in Rev.19:17-18 will then eat their flesh while their spirits will go into Hades “Tied into bundles to be burned). Jesus then has the angels collect the wheat (one left), then there will be the separation between sheep and the goats and at that time Jesus will establish his millennial kingdom, which of course will be centered in Jerusalem.

        So to recap, the resurrection and catching away is an event to resurrect all those who have died in Christ
        up to that point and also to remove the living church from the earth prior to the pouring out of God’s wrath. At the end of his wrath, which is made up of the seals, trumpets and bowls, then sometime soon after the last bowl judgment has been poured out, the Lord will then return physically to the earth, which is the end of the age. I might add that, in the resurrection and catching away, the Lord is only coming to meet us in the air and to take us back to the Father’s house as seen
        John 14:1-3. Making the event of the resurrection and catching away synonymous with the end of the age is an
        on-going error that many make. The majority of the book of revelation from chapter 4 on, is describing the details of God’s wrath, which decimates the world population drastically and in the process desmantles the world governments and which ultimately leads to the return of Jesus at the end of the age. I know
        that you believe that the church will still be here up
        until the 6th seal, but I believe that because Jesus is the one opening that seals that the fourth of the earth’s population being killed at the 4th seal is included as being his wrath as well. Anyway, I hope that this helps in some way.

      • A post by JRA, “Raptured” to here from the cyber place it was posted on, by alienated.

        Mmmmm. Interesting. I always thought that the end of the age meant the end of the age of “Grace”, and I also thought that as soon as the tribulation started, the age of “Grace” was completed. Then, I also thought, came the tribulation in which we the church, or bride of Christ, was caught up into heaven prior to the tribulation, thus those remaining on earth would not be either in the age of Grace or the beginning of the last dispensation called the millennium. Can someone clarify this for me?

        JRA said this on June 3, 2011 at 11:57 am | Reply

    • Hi all,

      There is another thing that I would like to present here to everyone for consideration as well.

      Though all who accept Yeshua as Savior are “one new creation” together and referred to as the church, God still has separate plans for Israel. Why? Simply because of the Abrahamic covenant that He made, and the fact that they didn’t recognize their Messiah when He actually showed up.

      Now since the New Testament is a continuation of the Old, and because of His previous covenant, it doesn’t make sense that He would not still provide Israel with some pertinent information. God will not abandon them.

      However, due to the error of “supersessionism”, or replacement theology, we tend in our arrogance, to believe that the New Testament is all to do specifically with us.

      Below I would like to offer an explanation to a specific passage that appears to have been misunderstood for years, which will also add additional weight to this premise and what I have stated earlier regarding Israel as well.

      Above Don makes reference to the “One taken and One left” passages, as referring to the parable of the “Wheat and Tares” And in my opinion he is exactly correct in doing so. However the questions have always been, “Who is it that this specifically is referring to? and When is this going to really take place?”

      “Some believe that it bad thing to be one of the one’s taken.”

      After considerable study, and with the Spirit as guidance, I believe that the following is the answer to those questions.

      The word translated into English as “taken” is from the transliterated Greek word “Paralambano” (Strong’s 3880)
      And its definitions are as follows;

      “to take to, to take with one’s self, to join to one’s self, an associate, a companion. metaph. to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be, not to reject.

      Therefore, by definition, one would have to conclude, that to be “taken” is actually a “good” thing(since Yeshua is the one doing the taking.)

      Whereas, the word translated into English as “left” is from the transliterated Greek word “Aphiemi”(Strong’s 863)
      And its definitions are as follows;

      ” to send away, to bid going away or depart, “of a husband divorcing his wife”, to send forth, yield up, to expire, to let go, let alone, let be, to disregard, to leave, to give up, keep no longer, ” to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned”, ” to go away leaving something behind”, “to leave one by not taking him as a companion.” “leave destitute.” etc., etc.”

      Therefore by definition, one does not want to be “left” that is not a good thing!!!

      Now here is where it gets interesting. I propose that “those” that Yeshua is referring to here, are the “144,000″ that will be “caught up” as described in Revelation 12:5. For during end times in the book of Revelation, (as I have said before), this is the only time that the word “harpazo” is utilized within the entire book!

      This adds additional weight to the word “elect” referencing only Israel, rather than the church, (before the church itself was even created) because the whole chapter itself,(12) is referring to the remnant of Israel.
      This is unequivocally supported by verse (17) “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

      Which then leads to a question that I asked earlier on the earthquake post.
      Since the word “Harpazo” (rapture) is only utilized once within the entire book of Revelation and is associated to only the 144,000, then what would be the obvious conclusion to make regarding the “rapture”
      of the church itself?

      It is inconceivable to conclude that the true “church”, those that have accepted Yeshua as Savior, would be “caught up” after those that only accepted Him later. Especially since there is no viable supportive scripture to substantiate that point of view.

      Be Blessed

      • Alienated
        I have a much different view on rev 12. I believe they are all pretrib events with the exception of verse 17. this marks the beginning of tribulation. I will address this tommorrow.

      • Hello Alienated and all,

        Now , regarding this issue of the “One Taken.” I must tell you that I have studied this up and down for many years and I cannot be moved from my understanding of those being taken as being the wicked. So, please bear with me as I expound on this. First of all I would like to list the verse in question:

        “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;’ and they knew nothing about what would happen to them until the flood came and [took] them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be [taken] and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be [taken] the other left.”

        First of all, the definition of the word “Taken” which is translated “paralambano” is not only used to pertain to “a good thing” as can be seen from the following Scripture:

        “When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied , swept clean and put in order. Then goes and [takes] with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there.”

        Now, I am sure that there are many other uses of the word “paralambano” used in a negative light as with the verse above, but I just wanted to make a point that, the word is not unique to always being used in regards to “a good thing,” unless of course you consider an evil spirit going and “taking” with it seven other spirits to mean a good thing, which I am sure that you don’t. This same word “paralambano” is also used when Satan “Took” Jesus up to the top of a very high mountain to show him the kingdoms of the world and I would hardly say that the word here is used in relation to a good thing.

        Furtherrmore, the use of the word is superseded by the context of Scripture. The comparison that is being made is wicked to wicked and not wicked to righteous. Simply put, Jesus is saying, just as those who were wicked were taken away in the flood, so also will the wicked be taken away at the coming of the Son of Man. It would be improper to compare the event of the wicked as the ones being taken in the flood with the righteous who are to be taken at the catching away.

        To further support that those who are taken as representing the wicked, let’s look at Luke’s version of this event:

        “I tell you , on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

        “Where, Lord?” they asked.

        He replied, ‘Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

        Jesus’ reply to his disciples is pointing to another event which takes place simultaneously as Jesus is returning to the earth at the end of the age as seen in the following verses:

        “And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you can eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.’ ”

        So, when Jesus says, “One will be take and the other left,” the disciples ask “Where, Lord?” That is, where are they going to be taken? Jesus then answers their question by making reference to an event that he knew would be taking place at his return, which is the gathering of those birds (vultures) by an angel, to eat the flesh of those whom he will kill at his coming with the double-edged sword as described in (Rev.19:17-18).

        This event is synonymous with the “Wheat and Tares.” In the verse in Mt.13:30 it states that, as the harvesters (angels) are sent out at the end of the age, they “first” collect the tares to be tied into bundles to be burned. So, at the time when Jesus returns, he sends his angels out and they “First” collect the tares (one taken) and bring them back to where all those kings, generals and their armies will have been gathered together at Armegeddon by those three demonic beings who will come out of the mouths of the dragon, beast and false prophet (Rev.16:12-16). At that time, the beast and the false prophet will be thrown alive in the lake of fire (Rev.19:19-20). After that, the kings, generals, their armies, their horses and the “ones taken” there by the angels, will be killed by the double-edged sword that proceeds from the Lord’s mouth, where they all fall dead and the birds that were previously gathered there by the angel will gorge themselves on their flesh,, while their souls will then go into Hades.

        So to recap, it is the comparison of those who were taken in the flood which represent the wicked, with those who will be taken at the coming of the Son of Man by the angels who are also representing the wicked. It is also the answer that Jesus gives his disciples when they ask him where those of the “One taken” group are being taken, of which his answer points to the dead bodies and the vultures, which is synonymous with those who will be killed by the double-edged sword and whose flesh will be eaten by those birds that will have been gathered together at Armageddon. I hope that this sheds some light on the subject, but as for me, I have gone over and over this subject for years and The context is clear to me that the “One taken” represent the wicked who make it through to the end of the age when Jesus returns.

        • Hi Don,

          “Yes”, you are correct with the above. “Paralambano” within its definitions can indeed be utilized in the “negative context”, depending as to the subject that it is being referenced too.
          I stand, (or sit. lol.) corrected in my above proposal and will instead differ to yours as in being the more correct in theory.

          Thanks :-)

          Be Blessed

        • Hey Don, I’m relatively new to this site, so I’m going through some posts that are fairly old, but I want to comment here because I like your idea about the wicked being taken. From memory I studied this years ago and at that time I thought a better translation was some would be received and some left (rather than taken and left). Am I right or wrong about that, do you know? Thanks.

          • Hello again Rob!

            I’m sure glad that you have a picture for your icon, it made it a lot easier to find your post so that I could reply directly to it. If I am correct, your post is referring to the Scripture regarding the “One taken, one left” event of Mt.24:37-41. For a long time I would here people teaching that those who were taken were representing the catching away or as many call it, the rapture. Personally, I like sticking with the original word to describe this event, which is “Harpazo” defined as “Force suddenly exercised” or “A snatching away.” I would even hear preachers, teachers and pastors teaching that those in this verse who were being [taken] was representing the catching away at the appearing of our Lord. But according to the context this just isn’t the truth.

            The first and most important evidence in contending that those who are taken are not the righteous but the wicked, is found in the comparison within the Scripture.

            “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and [took] them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.” (Mt.24:37-41)

            First of all, the “coming of the Son of Man” here is in reference to the Lord’s physical, visual return to the earth to bring in the end of the age and to usher in his millennial kingdom and should not to be confused with the resurrection and catching away of the church.

            If you’ll notice, in the Scripture above, a comparison is being made between those who are being [taken] at the coming of the Lord, with those who were [taken] in the flood in the days of Noah. Since those who were taken away in the flood represent the wicked, then those men and women who are taken while in the field and grinding with a hand mill respectively, must also be in reference to the wicked being taken and not the righteous. We must compare apples to apples here. I don’t believe that God is going to use a comparison of the wicked to describe an event of the righteous. Would you not agree?

            To get a better understanding of what the “one taken, one left,” event is referring to, we must look at Luke’s version of it.

            “I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

            “Where, Lord?” they asked.

            He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

            After Jesus tells his disciples one will be taken and the other left, they ask the question, “Where, Lord?” That is, where are they going to be taken? Notice Jesus’ reply, “where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

            I think that you will agree that this response that Jesus gave to his disciples makes no sense in regards to Christians who are to be caught up to meet him in the air. The Lord’s response is actually a clue as to what event he is referring to in regards to those who are taken, which can be found in the following Scripture:

            “And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds (vultures) flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat of the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.’ ” (Rev.19:17-18)

            This verse here in Revelation is John’s vision of the Lord returning to the earth after the wrath of God has been completed at the pouring out of the 7th bowl judgment which brings an end to the age and ushers in his millennial kingdom. Prior to the Lord’s descent upon the earth, this angel standing in the sun will have called all the birds of the air together for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of those kings, generals, their mighty men, their horses and [the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great]. This is what the Lord was referring to when he told his disciples “where there is a dead body, there the vultures (birds) will gather.”

            At the time when the Lord is returning from heaven to the earth with the church following behind him (Rev.17:14,19:14), at the same time, the angels will be going throughout the earth and [first] collecting the weeds [one taken] (Mt.13:30) and will bring them back to the valley of Megiddo at the battle of Armegeddon, where all those kings, generals and their armies will have been gathered by those three demonic spirits that come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast and the false prophet (Rev.16:13-14,16). When the Lord returns, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire and then the rest of those who will have been gathered, including those wicked that the angels gathered from the earth (one taken) will be killed by that doubled-edged sword which procedes out from the Lord’s mouth, which is symbolic for the word of God (Eph.6:17) and all those people fall dead. Then, those birds that were gathered together by that angel will gorge themselves on their flesh, which is the great supper of God. Those who are [left], will be those saints who will have made it through the great tribulation period, who kept the testimony of Jesus and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image or received his mark. These are those who will go into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth during that age. The woman/Israel of Revelation 12, who will have been cared for out in the desert for that 3 1/2 years will also enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth. I say repopulate, because by the time the Lord returns to end the age, the population of the earth will have been decimated brought about by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments fulfilling the prophecy found in Isaiah.13:12-13.

            I hope that this sheds some good light on this subject. To get a complete picture of this event I would suggest reading Mt.24:36-41, Luke 17:26-37, Mt.13:24-30, 37-43, Rev.19:11-21.

            Yours in Christ

  11. “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

    16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.

    17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.” 1 Peter 3:15-17. KJV.

  12. Marianne,

    Yes, I do believe that the gathering away of the real church is in Rev. 10:7, which means the true church will be taken out before the last 7 vials of wrath. Even though the days may be hard we will make it through each one of them with the presence of God and remembering such promises like 1)the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church 2)not a hair on your head will perish 3)Jesus will be with us to the end of the world 4)He will not give us more than we can bear 5)He will not give us more than we can bear 6)All things work for the good of the called &(He who hates his life shall find it.

    May God pour out upon you His great and mighty peace that knows no fear. God pours forth this special peace for His Bride from His throns in heaven, He gave me a song about this peace and the song said it is pouring forth from our Father above. Remember He is right beside you every day. You can do it, you can endure until the end. I pray for the Bride daily, asking God to meet all their needs. I have prayed for her for years. I prayed for the Bride before anyone, other than me, knew the real truth. We ARE going to make it. Just keep strong.

    Remember that we do not love our lives even unto death and we can do this. Not only can we do it but we will do it victoriously! And we will endure while keeping His works all the way to the end.

    We may not have all the answers, I don’t even know all the answers, I’ve never known all the answers but I don’t have too because I know that I walk with God day by day. Knowing what is going to happen exactly isn’t what is most important. What is most important is that Jesus Christ is with us always, never leaves us, never forsakes us, always right there. When you feel fear, when you don’t feel Him at all, when you’re confused, when you don’t know what to do, He is still there and His Words are true and definite. He will not fail, everything He said must come to pass. Just as he said that Peter would deny him 3 times before the cock crowed, and he did and it did crow twice. Just as He said that a memorial would be told about the woman who annointed him for his burial where ever the gosple is preached, and her memorial is told. So all the words in Revelation must come to pass and they will.

    Remember we don’t really die anymore because death has been abolished, we just fall asleep. You have nothing to fear with him.

    Sister Kim

    • Amen Kim!

    • Hello Kim, Marianne, all,

      First of all, I would like to point out that the use of the word “Mystery” is in no way referring to the catching away here and there is nothing in chapter 10 that would infer the same. The mystery that God announced to his prophets is the event of the “day of the Lord,” which at this point the inhabitants of the earth would be over half way through. The announcement by the angel is that “there shall be no more delay” meaning that the rest of the God’s wrath (7th trumpet and the seven bowls) is to follow which brings his wrath to its completion.

      The other problem with claiming Rev.10:7 as being the catching away is that, just prior to the angels announcement, the inhabitants of the earth will have sufferred the 5th and 6th trumpet judgments, which are the stings of those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss for 5 months and after that at the 6th trumpet a third of the earth’s population would have been killed by the fire, smoke and sulfer that proceeds out of those demonic beings mouths. I don’t believe that there is anyone who would deny that those last two plagues are indeed the wrath of God, which we the church are not appointed to suffer. In fact, by having the church here on earth at Rev.10:7, this would be putting the church through two of three woes, those being trumpets 5 and 6, which are some of the worst of God’s wrath, ergo, “Woes.”

      I might add that, the word “Mystery” does not define any one single event. In 1 Cor.15:51, the mystery that Paul is speaking of is the information regarding the catching away, which was previously unknown. On the other hand, the “Mystery” in Rev.10:7 is the mystery in regards to the day of the Lord and its completion after the bowls judgments which follow.

      Notice also that the angel states that, “The mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced it to his servants the prophets.” This in itself tells us that the catching away is not what is in view here and that because, though the prophets of old knew of the resurrection, God never announced information regarding the catching away to them, otherwise Paul could not have referred to it as a mystery.

      I truly hope that this sheds some light on the subject. Some friendly advise would be to be careful to not classify words to a specific meaning. For example the word “Star” has several different symbolic meanings in the book of Revelation and therefore, the context of the Scripture would determine the definition of its use.

      In Christ

  13. Does anyone know anything about a promise of locust. We have red winged locust which are gross looking. I never saw anything like it. They say they wiped out South Africa fertile part? They are
    are making I noise so loud you can’t hear yourself think outside.

    Please pray about it we live in the farm belt of Missouri, we are about 30-40 miles outside of ST. Louis.

    It is crazy. If anyone know Bible about this please write me back.

  14. Does anyone know anything about a promise of locust. We have red winged locust which are gross looking. I never saw anything like it. They say they wiped out South Africa fertile part? They are
    are making I noise so loud you can’t hear yourself think outside.

    Please pray about it we live in the farm belt of Missouri, we are about 30-40 miles outside of ST. Louis.

    It is crazy. If anyone know Bible about this please write me back.

    I know about Amos 4:9 “Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards, I struck them with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured your fig and olive tress, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.

    • pattie

      Here is a link. Locusts can exist in North America….best to figure out where they come from. You may not be in trouble ,but they may have left a place that was about to experience its own trouble.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicada

      The best-known North American genus is Magicicada, however. These periodical cicadas have an extremely long life cycle of 13 to 17 years and emerge in large numbers.

      This one has red wings.

    • pattie

      Here is a link. Locusts can exist in North America….best to figure out where they come from. You may not be in trouble ,but they may have left a place that was about to experience its own trouble.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicada

      The best-known North American genus is Magicicada. These periodical cicadas have an extremely long life cycle of 13 to 17 years and emerge in large numbers.

      This one has red wings.

    • Hi Pattie,

      Sorry, I don’t know much about your common garden variety locusts, but just be glad that they are not the ones mentioned at the 5th trumpet judgment, for those are described as having hair like women’s hair, teeth like lions teeth, have faces that resemble mens faces and stings like scorpions. Oy Vey!

  15. Marianne and Don

    Marianne Thank you for the link. My girlfriend called me and about the same time I saw the post. All you have to do is pray or if you are close to God, feel a since of need and he feels it right away.

    My girlfriend called and told me they had it on the news. She said not to leave the dogs or animals out longer than necessary. They are coming up out of the ground. They leave holes in the ground and they continually are shedding their bodies, it is gross.

    They are noisy and you can hear them with the doors closed. They are freaky looking with red hair and wings, yuke.

    My girlfriend said they were attacking the plant gardens and vegetables they planted? We put it in the hands of God and pray about it and he will take care of it.

    Thank you both for being kind enough to answer, I don’t like bugs and I diffinately do not want to be here for the ones that look like the women and sting people that would mean I was a foolish virgin. I want to remain in constant prayer to my Lord and savior to his coming.

    • Hello again All.
      It has been a Joy getting to know each and everyone of you, as much as you can know people on a blog. I came here with several questions, and the Lord has used my time here as a wonderful learning experience. Where else can you speak “openly” with Atheists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, charismatics and whatever other affiliation the people I have had discussions with had.

      Marianne: You have a wonderful sight here. And I admire you for your patience with us. It is the “law of Liberty” at work on your sight, the one which edifies the beliefs of those who have chosen to walk with Christ. The one that expands our knowledge and wisdom, rather than thwarts it with separation from the world. The one that shows us that we are to be in the world (reaching out to the lost) but not of the world (falling prey to its deceptions). So many times you have people leaving here on negative terms, I thought it fitting to have one leave on a positive note.

      I have definately seen the Holy spirit at work on this sight. I know I have been used by the spirit, and some who I have spoken to have led me by the spirit inside of them. In particular the interactions that I have had with Seppo, Lindsey, Gregg, alienated, Don and Pattie. These ones stand out the most, though there are others.

      For those of you that do not know, and I have not drawn much attention to myself, I have been living in the “wilderness” so to speak, for the past year and a half. Between economic, relational, and spiritual hardships in my life, the Lord has reached out to me and brought me back into his arms. It has been a wonderful “wakeup call”, and those of you who have interacted with me, have been a tremendous blessing. Only with Christ is there Joy and peace in hardship!!

      The Lord is now calling me in a different direction, and your prayers would be appreciated as I seek to do His will in my life. The hardships that I have had are not over yet, but there is that glimmer of hope, Just as learning about God’s kingdom gives us a glimmer of hope. I am sure I will check in with you every now and then.

      Just to get my last little word in with alienated, and our final disagreements: As I said I hope the parable of the ten virgins means that the elect will be raptured, but for some reason I believe it is the other way around. Being “elect” is being called to “serve”. (Luke 22:24-30) I guess we will find out when the time comes which way it is. Seems like the more questions we answer, the more get raised!!

      The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all.

      • hi Dru

        Gee, I will miss you. I wish you well, and especially with your hardships. I hope you overcome all of them in Jesus name.

        Sometimes we journey to a place for a season, and then move on. I have done that myself.

        Yes, some leave in different ways, both positive and negative. But we always give feedback with the best of intentions, and with the love of Jesus. Hopefully, the feedback will eventually sink in with those that may not “be there” yet.

        You have always been a joy to have. I hope you will return frequently to visit. Let me know if there is anything I can ever do for you.

        • Dear Dru,

          I wish you all the best as you continue forward on your journey. And as you know, you will never be alone on it.

          Theological debate is never personal, it is instead an opportunity to express our views regarding scripture to perhaps amongst the differing perspectives, discover a truth. It is in challenging the beliefs of not only others, but that of ourselves as well, that any growth can be attained. Therefore I am grateful to you for our discussions as well, and my prayers are with you.

          May the blessed Yeshua shine His face upon you.

          Take Care, and all the best.

          Oh, regarding the topic that you sign off with?
          Either way, I am sure that I will see you then. :-)

          Again, be Blessed.

      • Hello Dru,

        First of all, it was good to meet you and to have the opportunity to fellowship in God’s word. I hope that I didn’t make it too much of a stressful experience. I know that I can be a little too contentious at times, but it is only because I am zealous for the truth of God’s word. I realize that I do need to change my approach some,after all, our purpose should be to fellowship in his word, for our mutual edification and to gain insite, but the most important is that we love one another. As you said in your post,

        “Seems like the more questions we answer, the more get raised!!

        I so agree with you! In fact, as I continue to go through God’s word, I find myself repeating this very same thing to myself. No wonder people look at me strange! Who’s he talking to? Lol! Looking at the whole word of God, I would have say that he likes a good puzzle and I believe that he likes to watch us put it together, as well as to ask him for help in finding out the answers. Although, I’m sure that even if his word was written like a instruction manual, step by step, I still think that there would be people who would get it wrong, lol! If you missed step B, then see step A. The fact is that, we will forever be growing in the truth of his word until, one way or another, our time will be up here and I’m sure that his word will continue on in eternity as well as with new truths to be learned.

        Ultimately, our mutual goal should be to bring glory to God the Father and his Son, Jesus christ. You can be sure that we will all keep you in prayer regarding your hardships, as well as in general.

        Don’t be a stranger.

        Yours in Christ

  16. Hi everyone. Well… can someone clear something up for me? It’s about the timing of the rapture. I always thought it was going to happen at Rev 4:1. Why? Because if you will notice what’s already in heaven by the description that follows that verse. The 24 elders. 12 from the OT and 12 from the NT. Also the 7 lamps (or 7 churches are there). And why would G-d leave part of his bride here on the earth to be subjected to the tribulation? That doesn’t make sense, since we know that the tribulation period starts when the Anti-Christ makes a peace pact for 7 years with Israel and its enemies. If we know that the tribulation is 7 years long, then we could just do the math and know exactly when Jesus would return at his second coming, which also doesn’t make sense (to me, anyway). See what I mean? I am confused here. By the way, some gentiles as well as some Jews are the elect, and I just don’t think it possible that the elect is subjected to the tribulation. Plus, please see Rev 3:10. Thank you in advance to the biblical experts who can help me out here.

    • hi JRA

      While your reasoning is good, there is a debate using the 10 virgins as an example. All were invited, but only 5 were ready with their oil. The others being unprepared, were left behind, and missed the wedding feast.

  17. Hi JRA,

    Hey, there is a seat available right beside Don and myself on that particular bandwagon. lol.

    Regarding the biblical experts that you are expecting to help you out with any questions here, I definitely don’t fall into that category myself, but believe as you do, that there is significantly more evidence available to support a pre-trib scenario than not.

    Just the fact that the whole point of it is, to have the population of the earth at that time, give their head a shake, “repent and acknowledge God and Yeshua as their Savior”, doesn’t make sense to have those that already acknowledge and worship Them
    to have to experience it too.

    I think that Paul provides ample evidence in scripture to substantiate this theory.

    Where you and I may differ though in regards to timing, is that in 2 Thess.2:6,7. the word suggests that the church must be taken away before the man of sin can be revealed. But I totally believe that those that have overcome and kept their faith, trust, hope and relationship in Yeshua will not have to experience the tribulation at all. Amen to that brother.

    Be Blessed

    • Another JRA post placed here.

      Okay, so I am right. But… we’re not going through the tirb. Get it! Can’t happen. WE, the elect will be gone from here. Here are the ref. Ref see 4:10, also Corinth 4:15, and many more. Want it more? I can tell you, and we the chosen people will NOT to through or will have to go to through the trib.

      JRA said this on June 7, 2011 at 8:33 am | Reply

  18. Very good post Marianne. :)

  19. Hi to all.

    I have posted a portion below of what I have been working on in respects to the parable of the Ten Virigins. Though not finished yet, it still provides some interesting content to take into considerstion.

    An interpretation to the meaning of the Ten Virgins parable recorded in Matthew 25:1-13.

    First I would like you to have an understanding of what the actual Jewish cultural aspects are, to what we would refer to today as the engagement period and subsequent marriage ceremony. You may find that some of the definitions of the Hebrew to be rather intriguing, in that they can be also have a spiritual application.

    The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin;

    The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nisuin (full-fledged marriage). In the past, the kiddushin and nisuin would routinely occur as much as a year apart. Kiddushin occurs when the woman accepts the money, contract, or sexual relations offered by the prospective husband. The word “kiddushin” comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning “sanctified.” It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other.
    Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as we understand the term in modern English. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce. However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete.

    The nisuin (from a word meaning “elevation”) completes the process of marriage. The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.(*) This confirms what Yeshua said in John 14:1-3.

    Why Ten Virgins?

    The number 10 was not just an arbitrary figure that Yeshua happened to pull out of the blue either.

    But it appears to be a significant number Biblically.

    - God would spare the city for 10 righteous. (Genesis 18:32)
    - 10 camels were loaded with gifts for Rebekah. (Genesis 24:10)
    - Rebekah stayed 10 days before leaving. (Genesis 24:55)
    - Joseph had 10 brothers that went to Egypt to buy corn. (Genesis 42:3)
    - The Tabernacle had 10 curtains. (Exodus 26:1)
    - God gave Moses the 10 Comandments. (Deuteronomy 4:13)
    - Boaz had 10 witnesses at his marriage to Ruth. (Ruth 4:2)
    - Solomon had 10 lavers for water made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:6)
    - Solomon also had 10 golden candlesticks made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:7)
    - Solomon also had 10 tables made as well. (2 Chronicles 4:8)

    Then there are also the 10 days of Awe that fall between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and the 10 lost tribes.

    Jewish tradition also believes that there are only ten true Songs in the history of the world. These true Songs are not mere melodies, but they are expressions of the harmony of creation and mark monumental transitions in history.
    Interestingly in Jewish tradition, the Tenth Song has not yet been sung yet: it is the Song of the coming of the Mashiach, which will be sung at the End of Days (see Isaiah 26:1).

    As well, there is the “Minyan” the quorum necessary to recite certain prayers, consisting of ten adult Jewish men required to establish a synagogue. And I am sure that there is more out there.
    This is simply to verify, that apparently with God, the number 10 holds significant meaning.

    In the Book of Ruth, the marriage of Boaz to Ruth is an excellent foreshadowing of the parable of the Ten Vigins.

    “To understand the choosing of the bride, we must first study the typology that teaches of the relationship between Boaz and Ruth. In Ruth 3:1-10, Boaz is presented as a type of Christ in the choosing of His bride. This happens after his field has been harvested (type of the Rapture) and brought to the threshing floor for the purpose of separating the wheat from the chaff (type of the Judgment Seat of Christ). However, before this occurs, Ruth (a type of the Bride of Christ), a “Gentile” and near kinsman of Boaz, was instructed by Naomi (a type of the Holy Spirit through the Word) to go to Boaz, while he was at the threshing floor during the night, and to ask him to become her kinsman redeemer (this included marriage). Further, Naomi instructed her that before she went she must first cleanse and anoint herself (type of all sin having been confessed and the obtaining of a double portion of the Spirit). Then, she was told to go and lie at the feet of Boaz and do whatever He says [act of total submission]. This action shows in type form, the “faithful and wise” [Matthew 24:45-51] who have knowledge of the kingdom. This is so, because the feet of Boaz are a type of the feet of Jesus, which is emblematic of His coming kingship when He will dispose of Satan and judge the nations (Romans 16:20; Isaiah 63:6; Revelation 1:15; 19:15). Finally, the scripture tells us that this happened at “midnight,” which shows that Ruth, representing the Bride of Christ, was spiritually awake (watching for the coming of the Lord) while the other maidens (the rest of the saved) were asleep. Thus the choosing of the Gentile Bride of Christ will occur immediately after the midnight-cry (the rapture of the Church). (Shock & Surprise Beyond the Rapture by Gary T. Whipple, Th.M., Schoettle Publishing Co., Inc., 2003)”

    The parable itself.

    In my opinion from conducting this study, there is no doubt in my mind that Matthew 25:1-13. is an accurate description of what is commonly referred to theologically, as the “rapture”.
    Scriptural references that have been written that do more than imply that, “Spirit filled believers”, are indeed the “bride” of Yeshua.
    These can be found in, John 3:29., 2 Corinthians 11:2., Rev. 21:9 – 22:17., and can be substantiated in Rev. 19:7-9. where it is written that an actual “wedding ceremony” will take place in heaven. And this parable is definitely a description of the choosing of “who” the partakers of that event will be.
    Since these verses also describe some form of distinction between these two particular groups of believers, of which some will be considered to be worthy to be His bride, whereas others apparently will not, (Just as a man would not simply marry a woman because she is a woman, or a woman wouldn’t simply marry a man because he is a man), therefore Yeshua is looking for unique, or prerequisite attributes as well. The following is an effort in an attempt to understand, what those particular distinctions and attributes consist of, and who specifically it is that Yeshua was referring to within the parable itself. (ie;) Who are the two separate groups of five wise, and five foolish?

    But, before I explain in my opinion as to what those distinctions are, lets first look at the verses and see what “they” the Ten Virgins had in common.

    “1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    It is at this point here, that there is a break. It is in sense a third conditional form. The previous narrative tells of all the virgins going forth with their lamps to meet the Bridegroom and that the wise of them, took oil in the vessels of their lamps, as opposed to the foolish who did not. The following verses describe what took place prior to this happening, and if read in context, the foolish not only did not have “enough” oil, but also arrived late.

    5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” KJV.

    Before going further, I think that something very significant needs to be clarified first. That is the Greek definitions of the word “know” that Yeshua uses in verse 12. It is translated from the transliterated word “eidō” (Strong’s # 1492) and its definition is exactly what you would think that it means. “Verily I say unto you, I do not “perceive with the eyes, perceive by any of the senses”, You.”
    This would be a horribly devastating thing to hear from the Lord. That is why He said “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36 KJV.

    So what was it that these virgins had in common?

    (1) “They all were virgins.” Now right away that would eliminate a whole bunch of us. lol. Fortunately that doesn’t refer to our sexual experience at all, but rather to their/our purity of heart, or put another way, our desire to maintain Divine relationship.
    This can be substantiated in both the Old and New Testaments.
    See Genesis 24:16 and Revelation 14:4 respectively. Additional specificity is written, about the word “virgin” to clarify and ensure that what is expressed is understood correctly. Notice that Yeshua did not add at all to this definition.

    (2) “They all had lamps.” These would have been hand held lamps made out of pottery clay that someone could carry with them. The Hebrew transliteration would be “Niyr” and they would have had a wick (pishtah) as well as an area to contain the olive oil to burn. These lamps can be considered to be a symbolic reference to the Holy Spirit being indwelt within the believer. Ones light can only shine if the Holy Spirit, (or oil) is present and available to utilize. (see (3) below.)

    (3) “They all had oil.” This can be asscociated with the above point (2) and is a very significant point as well, for the “oil” is considered and has been established by every biblical scholar of note, to represent the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
    See Exodus 29:7, 29:21. Exodus 30:25,26,31. Exodus 40:9, 1 Samuel 16:12,13. 2 Kings 9:3. for just a few examples out of the numerous others included in the Tanakh. However, notice that in verse (3) it states that the foolish, “took no oil with them”, and in verse (8) that the foolish had run out of oil, and their lamps had gone out, “Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.”

    Though one of the shortest verses in the Bible, “Quench not the Spirit.” 1 Thessalonians 5:19, it should be considered very carefully by all professing Christians. The light of a lamp can only burn with fire. “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Acts 2:3. “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” Matthew 3:11/ Luke 3:16.

    The word “Quench” above that Paul utilizes in that verse, is the word “Sbennumi” in Greek, (Strong’s # 4570), and it’s definitions are, “to extinguish, quench of fire, or things on fire, to be quenched, to go out. metaph. to quench, to suppress, “stifle of divine influence.”
    Therefore it would not be unreasonable to say, that though one may have the Holy Spirit residing in them, the state of His “fire” is determined by the actions of surrendering to Him by the will of the host or recipient.

    (4) “All had been waiting.” Since the “the bridegroom tarried” it would be logical to assume, that while they were waiting for His return, they all carried on with life. Just as in the day’s of Noah, they and we are, “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”, before he escaped from the flood in the Ark.

    (5) “All had slumbered and slept.” “Nystazō”, (Strong’s # 3573) and “katheudō”, (Strong’s # 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, within the definitions of “katheudō”, it is noted to also refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation”.

    (6) “They all heard the cry.” Which in my opinion, the “cry” that is heard in verse 6 is referring to “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:” that is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and is referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:52. as well.
    Incidentally, that phrase “the trump of God” is used nowhere else in the entire Bible. It is specifically reserved for this rapture event.

    It is translated into English from the transliterated Greek words, “salpigx (trumpet) Strong’s # 4536 and Theos (God) Strong’s # 2316″, rather than that of “a great sound of a trumpet” that is recorded in verse 31 of Matthew 24. Which are translated into English from the transliterated Greek, “megas (great) Strong’s # 3173, phone (sound) Strong’s # 5456, and salpigx (trumpet) Strong’s # 4536.” This in my opinion, since there is a distinction between the two, is signifying that they are two different and separate events.
    One being the rapture, and the other being the Second Coming “after” the tribulation of those days. (I will add more as to why there is a logical foundation to make this statement, and to substantiate its validity within my conclusion below.)

    (7) “They all made it to the Door.” The five wise entered through it and went in with the Bridegroom to take their part in the marriage, where the five foolish found that it was shut. There are many references made within scripture regarding the word “door”. Therefore, I suspect that many in the past, when studying this particular parable, have because of it’s innocuousness, simply chosen to disregard it. However, I personally believe that to conduct proper hermeneutics, critical exegesis must be utilized.
    In doing so, I was rather amazed in finding out what the word “door” revealed, and will discuss the results below within the conclusion. (Though no where near as relevant as to what I will provide for consideration, perhaps the following example was prophetic in nature, when God was speaking to Cain and said, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.” Genesis 4:7a.)

    CONCLUSION;

    I would first like to say, that I am always amazed when conducting biblical study, how it is that something that appears so relatively short, can in actuality contain so much substance. The essence of the Lord our God, and our beloved Savior, to be somehow contained in a solitary book seems to be unfathomable, until one attempts to dissect its meaning.

    What was initially considered to be the correct explanation to this parable was, “that the “five foolish” were professing Christians without any Spiritual experience with God, and the “five wise” were possessing Christians, who have confessed and professed, and possessed Salvation.” Proverbs 22:3 regarding the “wise” and the “foolish”, would appear to support this theory, “A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” So this theory was accepted for a time to be a credible explanation, until some questions were proposed.

    The questions that arose had to do with the “oil”. How if all the virgins had “oil” were only five accepted?
    Is not the Holy Spirit the seal of promise as it is written in, “Acts 2:33 and Ephesians 1:13″? In taking these questions into account, another study was conducted, where the next group of scholars concentrated on the significance of the “lamps, the light and the oil”. Where upon the following was then concluded as to being the correct explanation. It was determined that it is “five that have the Holy Spirit working in their lives”, and “five who do not.”

    This theory was derived in part by utilizing the following scripture, “The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.” Proverbs 20:27 (Note, the word that is translated as “candle” here is the Hebrew “Niyr” again, and so it could have very easily been translated as “lamp”.) and “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39.
    So the premise of this theory is, “that the spirit of a man is the candle, or lamp of the Lord, searching the inner most part of the belly, and that the Holy Spirit works out from the inner most part of a man, therefore the image that this represents then, is one that, “the lamp, the oil, and the light” are the Holy Spirit working in and through an individual.

    And if I may elaborate in how this was phrased, “the lamp is the vessel itself, (or individual), which contains the “oil” that represents the Holy Spirit, and the light, (or fire) that is manifest, can only be achieved within mutual participation. In other words, those that have accepted Yeshua as their Lord and Savior do indeed possess the Holy Spirit. However, it is only those that surrender and through the act of participation, in not quenching the Spirit and in allowing for the process of Sanctification to take place, that the resulting “fire” can be attained.

    For those that still have difficulty in accepting this premise, lets see if a participation of surrender in the recipient to the will of the Spirit, and to abide always in Yeshua to ensure that nothing could be lost is implied, and what it is exactly that is “promised” in being sealed with the Holy Spirit in the following scripture.
    “23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.” 1 John 2:23-25. So the promise itself is “eternal life” and not necessarily being the “bride”.

    There is clearly a distinguishable difference between those of us that try to the best of our ability, to abide in Yeshua constantly as opposed to those who merely profess to being Christian. And I believe that if you have read all that I have written above regarding what it was that these virgins had in common, the definitions applicable to specific words, and the scripture verses I have provided, you will see that this difference between those of us who abide, as opposed to those who are more carnal in their walk, are what will be the deciding factor between who will be taken or not, (resurrected or changed) and be considered worthy enough to be Yeshua’s bride.

    This is what I have completed so far and I obviously still have more content to add. But for those that took the time to read this so far, I hope that the importance of not “quenching” the Spirit was understood. If it opened up anybody’s eyes at all, for that I am thankful.

    Be Blessed.

    • God Bless You “alienated!”

      As it says in the Scriptures, these “things” shall be bound-up(?) and not revealed until the “End Times!”

      btw, I “did” take the time to read your entire presentation above :)

      As you have pointed out before, the “truth” is revealed through the “Holy Spirit!” Like I said before, “I have no argument with you as to your Point-Of-View and beliefs!”…so far. :) Especially on your “summation” above as it, “coincides completely”, with what I have learned over the years with the people at Proof Directory.

      What you have done IS quite an, “accomplishment!” You can “rest-assured” that what you have done WILL certainly open peoples eyes! I have no doubt about that!!!

      God Bless, “alienated”, as you are “truly” deserving of His Blessings!”

      Sincerely,
      Your “Friend In Christ”
      Bob Wise

    • Would you be so kind as to posting this on the “Proof Directory” site so that “more” people can “read” this as it is “truly” an “inspirational” piece of work!

      I “kid” you not!

      “IF” you should…let me know…I’ll be the first to comment on it! :)

      • dear Bob

        You can comment here on this topic. I don’t know anything about the proof directory. It looks like a blog, which is what this is. If you want, you can post my link over there.

    • good job of explaining this point of view :)

  20. Hi Bob,

    I am so glad that you and I are okay in regards to the misunderstanding that was created by my earlier post to you.

    Thank you so very much for your compliment in respects to the above as well. It is humbly appreciated.

    As to actually reading the presentation above in its entirety…..
    I bet you’ll be the only one. lol :-)

    Again Thank You Bob.
    Take Care & Be Blessed

  21. Hi all,

    What do you think of this?
    I believe the following also provides evidence to a pre-trib scenario.

    Matthew 25:1-13. Ten Virgins. Is a description of the selection process for those that will be taken to “the kingdom of heaven” to be Yeshua’s bride.

    Matthew 25:14:30. Is a continuation, by supplying more specific information as to how that selection process was made.
    What it is exactly, that will determine who is selected or not.
    Those that were faithful servants will hear the Lord say,” Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things.” and they were given permission to “enter into the joy of the Lord”.
    (The open door for the Five “wise” Virgins.)

    Those that were believers, and had be given the Holy Spirit, yet “quenched” Him by caring more for their lives on earth, are the unprofitable servants. These are those that “will find the door shut”. They are represented as the Five “foolish” Virgins, and verse (30), is not representative of hell, but to the darkness of the tribulation itself.

    Now, though Matthew 31 continues on, the whole context and point of reference has actually changed completely!
    The “rapture” has happened, the wedding has taken place, the 144,000 have also been “caught up” and everything that is to take place before His second coming has taken place.

    Yeshua is now speaking of His second coming. “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” It is at that time while sitting on His earthly kingdom throne, that He will pass the following described judgment.

    Here is my theory regarding this particular judgment. Above in the parable of the profitable and unprofitable servants there is a verse that suggests something specific to me, that can also be referenced as well within another verse that is specific to the “rapture event”.

    In Matthew 25:28,29.(NKJV) it is written, “28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.”

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (NKJV) it is written, 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”

    This suggests to me, that the Holy Spirit has to leave before the man of sin can be revealed, therefore He will also be taken from those “foolish who unfortunately find the door shut”, and are now subjected to the trial of the tribulation. (The “talent” in the verse itself does not have to merely be representative of one particular definition here. A parable is subjective within its interpretation and words have in the past, had duality of definition.)

    All of those that either continue in their belief, or come to believing that Yeshua is indeed the Salvation of God the Father, will do so strictly on their faith. Just as in the Old Testament times. No one that comes to the faith during the tribulation will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    This is why I have a sneaking suspicion that just as Boaz and Ruth is a foreshadowing of the parable of the Ten Virgins, that the story of Rahab is a foreshadowing of the “sheep” in the sheep and goat judgment. (Joshua chapters 2 through 6).” By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.” Hebrews 11:13. (NKJV).

    I believe that there is the distinct possibility, that the sheep (believers) that are described in this parable are all of those that came to faith during the tribulation, and that they assisted all of those that were “left behind” who preached and witnessed of Yeshua during that time. And just like Rahab, they will be allowed to dwell with the faithful. The “goats” themselves could be the “tares”?

    Just my thoughts.

    Be Blessed

    • Oh and regarding the above;

      I am sure that someone will think of the following as possibly being contrary to the above theory. So please allow me to address that here.

      It is written, “But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.” Mark 13:11. (NKJV)

      This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is in the believer
      “continually” during the tribulation .
      The prophets themselves of the past would be indwelt during the specific and nessecarily times for the Lord to speak to the people.

      With what Yeshua states regarding King David in the previous chapter, would be an excellent example of this.
      It is written, “For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” Mark 12:36. (NKJV)

      King David couldn’t have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit continually, (not only by his demonstrated actions with that of Bathsheba), but also because of the following verse.
      It is written, “But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” John 7:39 (NKJV)

      Therefore King David only spoke by the Holy Spirit when He rested on him for a time.

      Above this is confirmed by what Yeshua says in the verse, “But whatever is given you in that hour”.
      Meaning that at those specific times, the Holy Spirit will rest upon those and speak in place of the believer.

      I don’t personally believe by what I say above, that the Holy Spirit will be dwelling in those on a continual basis.

      Just my thoughts.

      Be Blessed

      • In respects to my two posts, dated June 5th directly above, something interesting to note, is that the term “Holy Spirit” is not utilized once within the book of Revelation.

        The Greek “πνεῦμα” transliterated as “pneuma” and translated into English as “Spirit”, (Strong’s 4151) is utilized a total of sixteen (16) times in it’s singular form, and six (6) times as a plural.

        SINGULAR

        Out of the sixteen, singular times, it is used a total of four (4) times in referring to John being “in or caught up” in the Spirit.
        These verses would be Revelation 1:10., 4:2., 17:3., and 21:10.

        Out of the remaining twelve, pneuma is used a total of seven (7) times as in reference as to “Who” it is that is speaking to John, and to the churches. These verses would include Revelation 2:7., 2:11., 2:17., 2:29., 3:6., 3:13., and 3:22.

        The remaining five (5) consist of;

        Revelation 11:11., where the “Spirit of life” entered into the Two dead Witnesses.

        Revelation 14:13., where John heard a voice from heaven say, “Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the “Spirit”, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

        Revelation 18:12., where the angel cried mightily with a strong voice, saying , “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul “spirit”, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

        Revelation 19:10., where the angel had expressed to John to not worship him after John had fallen to his feet by saying, “See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the “spirit” of prophecy.”

        Revelation 22:17., where Yeshua is explaining to John that He has sent His angel to testify regarding all of these things. That He is the root of David and the bright and morning star, and says, “And the “Spirit” and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

        PLURAL

        Out of the six (6) times that “pneuma” is translated in a plural form, four (4) are in reference to the “Seven Spirits of God” which are before His throne. These would be Revelation 1:4., 3:1., 4:5., and 5:6., (this last verse refers to the Seven Spirits that were sent forth into all the Earth.)

        The remaining two (2) are Revelation 16:13., which refers to the “three unclean “spirits” like frogs that come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.” And, Revelation 16:14., which clarifies that these are the “spirits” of devils.

        Out of all of the twenty two (22) times “pneuma” is utilized in the above verses, the context for understanding is more or less self explanatory, except for perhaps one. I would like to take a moment to reflect upon verse 14:13.

        “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the “Spirit”, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

        Does not the above verse, (in maintaining the context of the narrative) suggest, or even emphasize, that the patience of the saints, and their opportunity to be “blessed”, (from this point on, (henceforth)), is solely dependant upon their “labours”, and that these “works” will follow them?

        What I am proposing here, is that it appears that “the age of Grace” that we are currently under now, has ended. And that the tribulation saints must now prove their worthiness by performing and demonstrating their faith by works, and by possibly being put to death because of them. Ergo, their own blood and sacrifice for their faith in Yeshua, is now required for their salvation, rather than just their belief.
        If we break down the verse within its original Greek text, we can see that this ideology is implied and not without merit.

        The English “Blessed” above is translated from the Greek “μακάριος” transliterated as “makarios”, (Strong’s 3107) and it is defined as; “blessed, happy”.

        “Henceforth”, or, (from henceforth) is derived from the Greek “ἀπάρτι” transliterated as “aparti” (Strong’s 534) and it is defined as; “from now on. henceforth.”

        The Greek word that has been translated into “labours” here is “κόπος” transliterated as “kopos”, (Strong’s 2873), and its definition is as follows; “(1) a beating. (2) a beating of the breast with grief and sorrow. (3) labour (a) trouble (1) to cause one trouble and make work for him. (b) intense labour united with trouble and toil.”

        The English “works” has been translated from the Greek “ἔργον” transliterated as “ergon” (Strong’s 2041). It is defined as;
        “(1) business, employment, that which one is occupied. (a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, or undertaking.
        (2) any product whatsoever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind. (3) an act, or deed, a thing done. the idea of working is emphasised in opposition to that which is less than work.”
        (Ergon has also been translated into English as “work” 152 times, “deed” 22 times, “doing” once (1) and “labour” once (1) within the King James.)

        And the English “do follow them” has been translated from the Greek “ἀκολουθέω μετά αὐτός” transliterated as “akoloutheō meta autos”, (Strong’s 190, 3326, and 846 respectively). The definitions of these words in order are;
        “akoloutheō – (1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him. (2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple. (a) side with his party.”
        “meta – (1) with, after, behind.”
        “autos – (1) himself, herself, themselves, itself. (2) he, she, it. (3) the same.”

        I believe that this proposal may possibly be substantiated by Daniel in his prophecy of 11:31-35 as well. Specifically in starting at the end of verse 32 where I have placed the …… designation and within quotations.
        31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate .
        32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: …… “but the people that do know their God shall be strong , and do exploits.
        33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
        34 Now when they shall fall , they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
        35 And some of them of understanding shall fall , to try them, and to purge , and to make them white , even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

        The above “to try them, to purge them, and to make them white” appears to support that this demonstrative act will be required of the tribulation saints, to therefore make them white. The English word “try” being translated from the transliterated Hebrew, “tsaraph”, (Strong’s 6884) defined primarily as to, “smelt, refine and test.” and to “purge” from the transliterated Hebrew, “barar”, (Strong’s 1305) defined primarily as to, “to purify, select, polish, choose, purge, cleanse or make bright, test or prove.”

        Or as it is written in Revelation 6:9-11, (which I believe expresses and correlates directly with the above prophecy of Daniel)….
        ”9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
        10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
        11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

        It is my opinion that the end of “the age of Grace” or when believers are actually indwelt with the Holy Spirit by believing and trusting in Yeshua as their Savior, will end at the time of the Rapture or gathering together. To me this is what Paul was expressing when he was speaking of what “withholdeth” or is “restraining”, (the Greek “κατέχω” transliterated as “katechō”, Strong’s 2277) in 2 Thessalonians 2:6.
        The definition of “katechō” is; “(1) to hold back, detain, retain. (a) from going away. (b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of) (1) that which hinders Antichrist from making his appearance. (2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head the ship. (c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of. (2) to get possession of, take. (b) to possess.”

        Therefore when Yeshua states in John 6:39. (and in verses 6:40., 6:44., and 6:54. As well as when Martha refers to the same in 11:24) “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” that He was referring to the “last day” as being the last day of the current “age of Grace”, and not of that of His Second coming.

        I believe that as the parable of the Ten Virgins, (Matthew 25:1-13.) implies that there will unfortunately be some that will be left behind.
        “Watch ye therefore, and pray always , that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass , and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36. KJV.

        We all unfortunately know some that profess to be Christians, yet don’t appear to “walk the walk” so to speak.
        Yeshua appears to address those specifically throughout the parable, and specifically within verse 5, “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.” Though this might not appear initially as being a significant verse, the original Greek would add some insight. All had slumbered and slept, “nystazō”, (Strong’s 3573) and “katheudō”, (Strong’s 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, “katheudō” is also noted within its definition to refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation.”

        Paul exhorts us in 1 Thessalonians 5:19., “Quench not the Spirit.”

        Perhaps whether we submit ourselves or not to the Holy Spirit, has a bearing as to whether or not we will be able to partake in this resurrection? Perhaps it also has relevance to the verse of Matthew 13:12 and to that of my proposal?

        ”For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.”

        Perhaps that is why the phrase Holy Spirit is not utilized within the book of Revelation whatsoever?

        Simply some food for thought.

        Be Blessed

    • Hello again, “alienated!”

      I believe your interpretation to sound and is accordance with my thinking, also. It’s curious (to me) that I am having a similar “type” of conversation with someone at Proof Directory at this same time. What is even more curious (almost surprising) is that no matter how many “ways” I look at it…I always come up with the “same” conclusion as you do through your studies and which I have known for quite some time now. For me it is somewhat “personal” (truthfully, it “should” be “personal” for everyone!) as it seems…NO! it IS…God’s way of “allowing(?)” me to stay focused on “HIM” instead of “daily issues” (for lack of a better term).

      ya’ kno’ whadda’ mean? :)

      God Bless “alienated!”…it’s nice to know that I am not the only person with the “same” thoughts!

      Sincerely,

      bob wise

      • Hi Bob,

        Yes it is an interesting topic isn’t it?
        And I have also believed this to be the case in the past as well. However it has only been in conducting this particular study, that I have come to the point that I believe it conclusively now in my heart.

        I am just about to make my last post here for today, though I am not sure as to whether anyone other than yourself, is actually reading them?

        Which does in away break my heart, for without this understanding, Yeshua will appear to many as a thief, and they won’t be prepared.

        Personally, I feel like one crying in the wilderness, yet I hope that in doing so, I will be accepted at the time of the catching away and considered worthy in His eyes.

        Keep the faith Bob.
        Be Blessed my brother.

        • “Couldn’t have said it better myself chief!”

          Some of my friends and family are hearing very apreciative of my studies and that I am sharing but others are thinking I’m a nut. It is hard but I am beginning to care less and less what others think.

          Keep it up.

    • hi alienated

      I find 2 Thess somewhat self contradictory.

      (a) it first says this:

      2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      (b) then it says this – which you quoted:

      2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (NKJV) it is written, 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”

      Either

      we cannot leave until the antichrist is revealed (a), meaning we and the holy spirit are still here,

      or

      the lawless one will be revealed after the restrainer is taken out of the way (b), meaning the holy spirit ( along with us, since he indwells within us) is gone when he is revealed.

      sigh

      both of these cannot be true…so which is it?

      • Hi Marianne,

        I guess we have to take somethings under consideration here. Though the word itself was indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit through “Paul” in this particular instance.
        And though Paul also hand signed this particular epistle as well, since it appears that the Thessalonians had received a forgery delivered to them by what is stated in the earlier verses of 1 through 3.

        This then places us in a position to attempt to rationally reason this out.

        For it is in addressing this forgery that Paul is making this particular statement. As well, though inspired to Paul through the Holy Spirit, these epistles were normally written by a scribe as they were dictated.

        The following is only my theory.

        Therefore though the word for “and” was written as “kia” and therefore is not mistranslated at all, it maybe should have been written as “tote” instead. Which would be for the word that could be translated as “then”.

        There is also the possibility that the scribe being human
        simply didn’t record the word “then” after the word “and”
        was spoken by Paul as well?

        I believe this because of the specificity of sequence provided in the verses of 7 and 8, where it is stated as
        “And then”.
        Actually if you read it all the way through from beginning to end and substitute the word “then” for the word “and” in verse 3, it all makes complete sense. The confusion is eliminated.

        As I said this is just a theory, but it is amazing how one relatively small insignificant word can be the cause
        of so much confusion isn’t it?

        Don’t know if that really helps at all?

        Be Blessed

        • so, is it a or b?

          • Sorry, I can be one heck of a pain in the old tush at times huh? lol.

            Simply put. the answer in my opinion based upon all the other supportive evidence in scripture is “B”.
            As you phrase it above, the lawless one will be revealed after the restrainer is taken out of the way, meaning the holy spirit ( along with us, since he indwells within us) is gone when he is revealed.

            Again lol. sorry.

        • Hi guys,

          Just an interjection, remember that the catching away as well as the wrath that follows, both fall under the banner of “The Day of the Lord.” Just a thought.

        • Marianne: “Either (1) we cannot leave until the antichrist is revealed (a), meaning we and the holy spirit are still here, (2) or the lawless one will be revealed after the restrainer is taken out of the way (b), meaning the holy spirit ( along with us, since he indwells within us) is gone when he is revealed. Sigh, both of these cannot be true…so which is it? …so, is it a or b?”

          Confusion remains Marianne, because of two incorrect assumptions continue unchallenged:
          (assumption #1) Falling Away = Departure from the truth.
          (assumption #2) Restrainer = Holy Spirit
          It is further complicated by the lack of definition for: “mystery of lawlessness”
          Once you correctly define these three, then the answer to your paradox will become crystal clear.

          • hi 45

            I understand the confusion. I have pondered it a lot, but I am not sure of the answer.

          • Come on and work with me on this. Holy Spirit firmly implanted in you the paradox in the first place, and it was for a very good reason. Your logic was flawless. I will pray in agreement with you that Holy Spirit will help you find at least an answer to one of these three.

            I am restricted(forbidden) from presenting more than just the framework, without someone else first providing at one correct answer of the three.

            But for now I am going to get some sleep since I’ve been up since yesterday. The Lord bless you with grace today. Good night for now.

            45

          • restricted?

            not sure what that means either.

            now I have 3 things to figure out.

            or 4?

          • maybe the falling away is…………..?????

            maybe the restrainer is the devil….?

            or maybe the restrainer is america protecting israel…?

          • Only 3 questions:
            (1) What could fall away besides truth?
            (2) What restrainer aside Holy Spirit?
            (3) What is the Mystery of Lawlessness which obstructs our visual perception of the Man of Lawlessness?

            Regarding the restrainer, consider the question: What restrainer was moved out of the way for the great flood to come in the days of Noah?

          • These questions are open to anyone. Though scripture does not often use the exact word ‘restrainer’, restrainer theme is written of throughout the Bible, literally from cover to cover. What more could possibly be said without just giving the answer?

            Seven Bold Hints:
            =================
            (#1) Answer to Noah’s flood restrainer in found in both Genesis 1 and Genesis 7.

            (#2) What restrainer was taken out of the way during the crucifixion? This is written about in at least six places in the New Testament and many times in the Old Testament.

            (#3) Whenever a restrainer is removed out of the way, what physical phenomena ALWAYS occurs on the object from whom the restrainer is taken away?

            (#4) What painful restrainer removing ordinance did God establish with Abraham unto every single Christian? (This is a very big hint.)

            (#5) What restrainer is painfully removed repetitively before any woman can become pregnant? (Please do not respond to (#6) on this blog. Thank you. It has nothing to do with men.)

            (#6) Why is it necessary for the Revelation 13 Beast to suffer a head wound that nearly kills it?

            (#7) What two key interrogatives are common to every restrainer removal?

            • ???????

              1. there is no restrainer in Genesis 1 or 7
              -
              -

              2. Jesus, the law, the veil in the temple
              -
              -

              3. impact
              -
              -

              4. no idea – he just told him to leave where he was, what ordinance? ….I think the only one in effect was circumcision….. no big hint here.
              -
              -

              5. hormones, condoms, are you serious? repetitively removed? a man’s self control

              -
              -

              6. if you don’t want us to respond, why did you ask the question?

              -
              -

              7. i don’t know, maybe “would you like me to remove you?” and “who are you?”
              -
              -

            • Hey 45,

              So like….. What’s your answer to the above ?
              I wouldn’t advise piquing everybody’s interest, only to drop the ball. (Look he threw a brick.)

              And I believe that Don’s summary that he posted last night, covered the “one taken, one left”, in that it has no bearing whatsoever to the rapture itself, and therefore is inconsequential to our belief, (and the belief of many), and that the rapture is still referenced within other scripture.

              So now we are just left with the “κατέχω” transliterated as “katechō”.
              So what do you believe it consists of?

            • I had hoped the 7 questions to slow Marianne down a little bit, perhaps to contemplate each one over a week or more. That bombed when she just boom, gave an answer to all, kaboom. So it is necessary for me to unravel each one, in one single reply – this takes time.

              I’m getting to all three of you, just be patient.

              I still believe in the rapture, but only a post-trib one, yet post-trib does not address all verses that have been traditionally looked at with regard to a rapture, therefore it is complex material.

              Its only been about 24 hrs since I made the collective posts – and I’ve had some other mundane business to take care of today at the end of the month…

      • Hi Marianne!

        I’m a “lil” slow, however I find NO contradiction…for in the first…Jesus has “yet” to come and He shall not come until there is a “falling away”…possibly of the religious “beliefs” present in today’s society…as opposed to those that “believe” in Christ Himself irregardless of “religion”??? For as we already know, “lawlessness” HAS been at work since the beginning.

        As for ver. 8, it basically says the same thing as the rest of the Scriptures, only there is no “time” given…it simply says, “…the “lawless” one will be consume with the brightness of His Coming!…” It does not indicate, immediately upon His Coming or “how soon” after His coming…

        Since we “know”, we are in the “End Times”, we, therefore also “know”, that Jesus IS Coming! Right? So…sometime between, now(?) and His actual return…the “lawless” one shall be revealed. At no point does this “negate” the presence of the Holy Spirit at any time…even after His return.

        Furthermore, in other Scripture, it says that the “antichrist” will be “revealed” and that “we” should not be “fooled!” Some time after this, Jesus shall return…

        IF, you consider the “Great Deceiver” and the “anti-Christ” to be, “one-and-the-same”, then he has already been “revealed” to those who want to believe! The “Great Deceiver” IS the “POPE”…identified by the letters above his seat “ENRI” which equals 666 “the-name-of-a-man!” In other Scripture, the “Great Deceiver” is also identified by the clothing he wears…in detail, which “incidentally”, coincides precisely with the “dress” of the “Pope!”

        Excuse me for getting “off-base” here…maybe I got it ALL wrong…if I do, please correct me…maybe I’m just not following what the question is all about???

        bob

        • the question is regarding whether or not believers (along with the holy spirit) will be around when the antichrist reveals himself.

        • Hi Bob,

          I’m not sure that I understand what you are saying above?

          This whole post is attempting to discover whether the “harpazo” “catching away” or “rapture”, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 where Yeshua only comes in the clouds, not in returning to the earth itself, occurs prior, during, or after the tribulation.

          Please take a look at the very bottom post that I have just made here, June 6th. 12:14 am to see the differences
          in scripture between group “A” and group “B”.

          Be Blessed

        • Hi Bob! I’m Don, good to meet you. Just an interjection regarding what you said previously:

          “the “lawless” one will be consumed with the brightness of His Coming!”

          If I may, the lawless one being “consumed with the brightness of His coming,” is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to set up His millennial kingdom and has this man of lawlessness, also known as the beast and the antichrist cast alive into the lake of fire along with the false prophet (Rev.19:19-20). Then, after that, Satan is also taken and thrown into and restricted in the Abyss that will have previously been opened at the 5th trumpet (Rev.9), where it is then locked backup over him until the end of the Millennium, where he is then let out for a short time.
          (Rev.20:1-3,7-10)

          Hope this helps

          • Hey Don!

            Nice to meet you, also! To tell you the truth…it really matters NOT to me “how” or in what “order” things are to take place…as long as I follow “the teachings of Jesus Christ…”, does it not???

            Here’s a little something “I” realized many years ago:

            Although, Jesus IS the Messiah, even He had His “doubts” as He Was Being Crucified! For ALL His “knowledge” and “love of God & Heaven” and everything else that He IS!…He “died” as a “man!” Just like you and I! This is “evidenced” by the statement, “…why hath Thou forsaken me…” (paraphrased, of course).

            Therefore, the BEST “I” can do in my life is, “follow the teachings of Jesus Christ!” as much as is “humanly possible!” OR, “I”, can choose to “ignore” Him and “perish” forever!

            God gave “us” the “freedom-of-choice!” The only difference between those that Will perish at the “coming of the Lord” and those that will be “raised to Heaven”…is what they “choose” to accept within their “Heart!”

            • Hi Bob,

              The Jews at the time of Yeshua’s death on the cross, knew all of the scriptures in the Tanakh by heart. They would hear them over and over again from the day they were born.

              All a Temple priest would have do, was speak the first couple of words, and the people would know what the rest of what was going to be read consisted of.

              So, when Yeshua cried out “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” was He really crying out to God?
              Or was He in actuality letting the people know who it is that He really was, and that they were in fact witnessing prophecy being fulfilled?

              If you are not sure as to what I am talking about, read Psalm 22.

              Be Blessed

      • Hi Marianne,

        I may possibly have a better answer for the question that you posed above? I will post it at the bottom of this thread.

        Be Blessed

  22. Hi all,

    Here is another thing to take into consideration. Not only in its content, but also where it is written as in having bearing to this topic of discussion.

    It is written, (1)- “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Rev.3:5. NKJV.

    Now the word that is written as “blot” actually comes from the word that is written as “out”.
    This word “out” is translated from the transliterated Greek word “Exaleipho” (Strong’s 1813) and its definitions are as follows; “to anoint or wash in every part, to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster), to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out.”

    The word itself is only used 5 times in the New Testament, and is either translated as the word “out” or as the word, “away”.
    I have placed the appropriate words in quotations below.

    (2) “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted “out”, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,” Acts 3:19 NKJV.

    (3) ” having wiped “out” the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Colossians 2:14. NKJV.

    And in 3 times within the Book of Revelation. Rev.3:5 as stated above, (1), and in the following 2 others.

    (4) “for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe “away” every tear from their eyes.” Rev.7:17 NKJV.

    (5) “And God will wipe “away” every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev.21:4. NKJV.

    However it is the very first one that I find intriguing.
    “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot “out” his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Rev.3:5. NKJV.

    First because of where this is written within the book itself. It is included within Yeshua’s epistles themselves to the 7 churches, which represent not only the entire church age itself, but also that of individual believers as well.

    In speaking to the church of Sardis, Yeshua says, “Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”(3b) This could then be applied to that of the Five “foolish” Virgins.

    He also says, “You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.” (4). This could then be applied to the Five “wise” Virgins.

    Then as He is speaking to the church of Philadelphia, and the specific individuals therein, He says, “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door,” (8a) The door that is not “shut” for the “foolish” but “open” for the “wise” who were prepared and did not “quench the Spirit and who instead were “overcomers”. (or put another way, since the word overcomers is translated from the Greek transliterated word, “Nikao” (Strong’s 3528) it could also within its definition be stated as being “victorious”.)

    Where He then also states, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (10)

    There is also an interesting thing about the word “door” that I eluded to in my presentation of the Ten Virgins above, that I haven’t yet included within my conclusion to that parable yet. The very last time that the word “door” is ever utilized at all, in the whole of the book of Revelation, is written here, “After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Rev.4:1 NKJV.

    To me, that appears to be a little too coincidental to be taken lightly.

    The second thing that I find intriguing about this particular verse is this.

    If Yeshua states that He will possibly “blot” out someone from the “Book of Life”, that would only logically mean that at one point their name had to be included and written in the “Book of Life”.
    Though this is indeed predestined before the foundations of the world, it is therefore made obvious by Yeshua’s statement, that the actions of those given free will on the earth, can change the outcome of whether or not their name “remains” in that “Book”.

    In my research for my composition regarding the parable for the Ten Virgins, I researched out some valuable information regarding Jewish tradition in respects to betrothal and marriage. Lets take a quick look at a portion of it here. “The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nisuin (full-fledged marriage). In the past, the kiddushin and nisuin would routinely occur as much as a year apart. Kiddushin occurs when the woman accepts the money, contract, or sexual relations offered by the prospective husband. The word “kiddushin” comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning “sanctified.” It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other.
    Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as we understand the term in modern English. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. “The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce.” However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete.”

    Above I have put into quotations the following, “The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce.”

    Now here is my thought, those (that as it appears in the parable of the Ten Virgins) who do not make it to the wedding, with God being merciful, He will now allow them, (as He has throughout the millennia, wishing for all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4.) another opportunity during the tribulation, to repent, and do what they should have done in witnessing etc. when they first had the opportunity. This now becomes their second and last chance to overcome, be victorious, and demonstrate their faith. Some to the point of death.

    However, if some of them chose to accept the mark of the beast etc. instead, then that would be considered to be “adultery” in the eyes of the Lord, which would then warrant, justifiably, spiritual “divorce”. Therefore He could in being just, issue a decree of divorcement, and blot their name out of the book of Life, and the Spirit of promise becomes simply null and void.

    Again, just my thoughts.

    Be Blessed.

    Oh, just more interesting thing that may as well be stated here as well, since it is relevant.

    As well regarding “Church” (Ekklesia), and the word “door” both disappearing in the first couple of chapters of Revelation.

    There happens to be another one too. That is “overcomer” or as I said, “Nikao” (Strong’s 3528).

    It is used in Luke 11:22., John 16:33., Romans 3:4, and 12:21., 1 John 2:13,14., 1 John 4:4., 1 John 5:4,5.
    and 15 times in Revelation. But out of these 15 times it is only referring as to being a overcomer by keeping the faith of the church in Rev. 2:7., 2:11., 2:17., 2:26., 3:5., 3:12., and 3:21.

    From there if the word is still used, it doesn’t refer to the church other than twice, where it is also only referring to it in the past tense. (Rev.15:2 would be referring to the Saints that went through the tribulation.)
    Every other time it is translated differently to maintain the correct context.
    For example, I’ll bracket the word and its various translations in the following verses.

    “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold , the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath [prevailed] to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Rev. 5:5.

    “And I saw , and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth [conquering] , and to [conquer].” Rev.6:2.

    “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall [overcome] them, and kill them.” Rev.11:7.

    “And they [overcame] him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” Rev.12:11.

    “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to [overcome] them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Rev.13:7.

    “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the [victory] over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” Rev.15:2.

    “These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall [overcome] them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.” Rev.17:14.

    “He that [overcometh] shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” Rev.21:7.

    Again, very interesting placement and referencing in that it should disappear as being representative to an individual member of the church, at the same time that Ekklesia itself also disappears.

    Done for today.
    Be Blessed.

  23. Please consider the following as well.

    There appears to be two distinctly different groups that are described in the Bible when we look at this subject.
    And when we attempt to compile the information associated to these different groups, we encounter mutually contradictory aspects between them.

    Group – “A”

    Daniel 2:44-45,
    Daniel 7:9-14,
    Daniel 12:1-3,
    Zechariah 14:1-15,
    Matthew 13:41,
    Matthew 24:15-31,
    Matthew 26:64,
    Mark 13:14-27,
    Mark 14:62,
    Luke 21:25-28,
    Acts 1:9-11,
    Acts 3:19-21,
    1 Thessalonians 3:13,
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10,
    2 Thessalonians 2:8,
    2 Peter 3:1-14,
    Jude 14,15,
    Revelation 1:7,
    Revelation 19:11, 20:6, Revelation 22:7,12, 20.

    Group – “B”

    John 14:1-3, Romans 8:19,
    1 Corinthians 1:7,8,
    1 Corinthians 15:1-53,
    1 Corinthians 16:22, Philippians 3:20,21,
    Colossians 3:4,
    1 Thessalonians 1:10,
    1 Thessalonians 2:19,
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18,
    1 Thessalonians 5:9,
    1 Thessalonians 5:23,
    2 Thessalonians 2:1,(3),
    1 Timothy 6:14,
    2 Timothy 4:1,
    Titus 2:13,
    Hebrews 9:28,
    James 5:7-9,
    1 Peter 1:7,13,
    1 John 2:28,- 3:2,
    Jude 21,
    Revelation 2:25,
    Revelation 3:10.

    If you study all of these verses, I believe that you will see, that in Group “A” all people on the earth are affected; “every eye shall see Him.”
    But in Group “B”, only Believer’s are affected.

    In Group “A” things proceed only after a series of precedent events. Whereas in Group “B” it is imminent.
    We are instructed to expect Him directly after what is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10. Which in my opinion, is only the apostasy.

    In Group “A” it does not reference any translation of the church, or resurrection.
    In Group “B”, it specifically involves the resurrection of Believer’s.

    In Group “A” Translated believers accompany Christ to the earth. In Group “B” they are gathered from the earth.
    Both live and resurrected dead.

    In group “A” the Earth is judged.
    In Group “B” the Earth is not judged.

    In Group “A” It concludes “the Wrath”
    In Group “B” it occurs prior to “the Wrath.”

    In Group “A” Satan is bound for a thousand years,
    In Group “B” there is no reference to Satan whatsoever.

    In Group “A” Christ comes “with” His own.
    In Group “B” Christ comes “for” His own.

    In group “A” Christ comes to the earth.
    In Group “B” Christ comes in the air.

    In Group “A” Christ comes “with” His bride.
    In Group “B” He comes “for” His bride.

    In Group “A” the Tribulation is interrupted, and the Millennial Kingdom follows.
    In Group “B” the Great Tribulation follows.

    Whenever 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10 is fulfilled, we,(or those that are worthy to be His bride) are outta here. Amen.
    Then the Tribulation commences, until Christ’s Second Coming.

    Be Blessed

  24. hi guys

  25. “Greater Tribulation – all untested saints, or saints without oil, plus Israel, who is positioned for salvation”

    Hi marianne :)

    What would you say is the “oil”?

    Some say the “oil” refers the Holy Spirit (spirit filled believers), while others would say Torah…..

  26. Hey ALL!

    Like I said, “…sometimes I’m a lil’ slow…”, not to mention, “Soooo…many, POSTS!” Maybe I’m not that “slow” after all! lol Not to worry…I’ll “catch-up”…eventually!!!

    As I was researching some of what has been discussed above, I found the following item which “may” be of some help:

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of “great tribulation,” and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    If it has “THE” in your Bible, it is an added word by those who think it necessary to change Gods word, which all new versions suffer from.

    I added the quotes on “great tribulation” as this is what the author is referring too.

    By “eliminating” the word “the”, it is plain to “see” that “everyone” must go through a “great tribulation”…does it not???

  27. Forgive me “alienated” and “Marianne”, but…

    The “best” explanation I have yet to find, regarding “rapture” and “tribulation”, IS on the Forum at Proof Directory. Rather than “re-post” only the “relevant” posts, I am providing the “page” link herein…

    http://forum.proofdirectory.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=196&start=30

    Since this pertains to the Word of God, I’d rather you “read” it for yourself instead of ME telling you. I hope you understand…

    God Bless!

  28. Hi All,

    The “oil” reffered to in Matthew 25:1-13, represents the anointing of the Holy Spirit. See Exodus 29:7, 29:21. Exodus 30:25,26,31. Exodus 40:9, 1 Samuel 16:12,13. 2 Kings 9:3. for just a few examples out of the numerous others included in the Tanakh.

    The giving of the Torah, (the first 5 books) to Moshe, started on the very first Shavuot, (or Penecost).

    The giving of the promise of the Ruach HaKodesh, (Holy Spirit) was also given on Shavuot, (Pentecost), after Yeshua had been glorified, and is therefore the better replacement.

    “14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly , triumphing over them in it.” Colossians 2:14,15.

    Be Blessed

  29. Hi Bob,

    I have just started to read the link that you provided for us.
    Right away I noticed a problem.

    Natalie wrote, “I believe there is a general misunderstanding of the word “rapture.” I agree with Archangel in a sense that the rapture and the second coming of Christ (with all the holy angels, when the dead in Christ will rise first, and the wicked will be slain) will be at the same time.”

    Right away here she has made a mistake.
    Where she states “when the dead in Christ will rise first” she is referring to “1 Thessalonians 4:16 (b)”. Nowhere in that passage describing this rapture event (verses 13-18) does it mention anything regarding the “wicked being slain”, neither does it mention anything regarding “angels”!

    In briefly reading the rest of what was available,…..
    In respects to many of those that participate on that blog, I unfortunately can only respond with scripture.

    “12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Hebrews 5:12-14. KJV.

    Just my opinion Bob.

    Be Blessed

    • Oh and with respects to what I say above, I would just like to clarify something. It is not meant to be a “judgment” in any way, only and “observation”, and because I was there myself many, many years ago.

      Be Blessed

    • I “hear” ya’!

      I too…have been, “there” (sometimes i think i have never left with the way the world is today)! AND for “clarification”…yeah, these are only MY thoughts, not necessarily what I believe! After all, we are “discussing” things are we NOT?

      However, Thomas McElwain made an interesting “post” that I just read within the link I provided as he said:

      “The rapture simply is not found
      In Scripture at all, I’ve been bound
      To do a search. It is not there.
      Who lies should himself take a care.”

      He goes on to say that using the word “rapture” is a “poor” word to use in reference to the Scripture being read…and every time someone introduces “their” own interpretation of what Scripture says, it is usually “wrong!” Have you not found this also to be “true???”

      • Hi Bob,

        Well I would have to disagree totally with Mr. Thomas McElwain, in his statement. The word “rapture” in English comes from the Latin Vulgate, (this is when the Greek scripture was translated into Latin).
        “Rapiemur” is the Latin translation for the Greek word Harpazo and is the first person plural future passive form of rapere, meaning to “carry off, seize, or drag away.” It’s perfect passive form is raptus from which we derive the English terminology “rapture”.

        In my opinion all that Mr. McElwain is doing, is demonstrating his lack of study, and propagating falsehoods.

        Bob, read all of the content on this post. Those here have no trouble in understanding that it is indeed a future factual event described within scripture. The question that is posed, is when exactly it will take place? Not if it “is”, or “isn’t”.

        Be Blessed

        • Hello Bob, Alienate and all,

          In regards to the catching away (rapture), though I have not read Mr. McElwain’s post, I do agree with Alienated that this event is a future event which involves the entire church from beginning to end, dead and living being resurrected and caught up. To simplified things, we could remove the timing of the rapture described in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51 and look at it from the following prospective of what is yet to take place.

          1) we are currently still in the church age.

          2) There is still one seven year period left yet to be fulfilled from the prophecy of the seventy sevens as described in Daniel 9.

          3) The middle of the seven is marked by that abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple.

          4) The return of the Lord at the end of the seven.

          5) The resurrection and catching away of the church.

          The controversy of course has been, where to place this event in relation to 1 thru 4.

          We know that this event hasn’t take place yet and that becasue the church is still here. As Scripture states, when this event takes place it will involve the entire church from beginning to end, dead and living. So, then comes the deeper study of when and by what means this event will take place and that based on other pieces of the Scripture puzzle.

          So, let us be as the good man of the house, always ready and watching so that we will be ready for the thief, so that our houses can’t be broken into.

  30. Here’s a “little” bit of info about Thomas McElwain:

    Thomas McElwain was born into a devout Christian family in the United States in 1949. He was occupied by religious subjects from an early age and wanted to become a pastor. He studied theology and history at the Séminaire du Salève in France from 1968 to 1972, after which he continued studies in religion at Andrews University in Michigan. Already in France he was considered a rebel in terms of theology, but his expertise in languages earned him respect.

    In 1974 he entered the University of Uppsala to study Biblical languages and Ethnography. He completed a Ph.D. degree in 1979 from the University of Stockholm with a dissertation on American Indian religious traditions, Mythological Tales and the Allegany Seneca. He has written several books and many articles on Native American religion, Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

    For many years he has lectured at various universities, especially the University of Turku in Finland where he was active from 1979-84. He was editorial secretary for the nordic journal of comparative religion, Temenos, for five volumes. He has been on the faculty of the department of Comparative Religion as docent at the University of Stockholm since 1982.

    His active participation in church work led to his ordination to the ministry in 1988. He served a Baptist missionary society full time from 1986 to 1990. He was a voting delegate to the Baptist World Alliance at its session in Zagreb in 1989, representing the Seventh Day Baptist General Conference of USA and Canada.

    Following the Baptist principles of Bible study, which encourage freedom of thought and objective examination of the text, he has come to conclusions which will surprise the reader no matter what the religious background.

    Like others of his denomination before him, notably Edward Elwall, he finds no conflict between his practice of Baptist faith and Islam. Knowing that God is One, and believing in all of His prophets, Dr. McElwain hopes that the walls between Christianity, Islam and Judaism will fall and all join in the faith of the one true God as expressed in the Bible and the Qur’an. Dr. McElwain recites the Bible in the original Hebrew and the Qur’an in Arabic daily.

    Yeah…he is somewhat “one-of-a-kind”…however, I do believe he is on the “right-track” in his endeavor to “unite” ALL Christians of the World under “ONE GOD!”

    • Hi Bob,

      Okay, okay, not knowing of the guy, perhaps I was a little premature with my comment regarding “his demonstrated lack of study.”

      However with that said, why would he not possess the simple understanding as to where the word rapture was derived from?

      As well, though one would assume that in participating within all of the academia that he has, that he would have the understanding having read the Qur’an, (as I have as well by the way) that Allah is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

      So any credibility that in your post you wished to establish to him, has flown out the window right there with the knowledge of that information. Sorry Bob.

      Be Blessed

    • Hell Bob, Alienated and all,

      Regarding the conclusion of your post in reference to what you said regarding Edward Elwall and others, if his and their conlusion is that there is no difference between Christianity and Islam, then I would have to say that he needs go back to square one and start over again, because he missed it!

      The only people who will be saved are those who believe as Thomas did in his confession:

      “My Lord and my God! Thomas, you have believed because you have seen, blessed are those who believe but have not seen.”

      And also Peter’s confession:

      ” ‘Who do the people say the Son of Man is?’ They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist; others say elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ ‘But what about you?’ he asked. ‘Who do you say I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Mt.16:13-17)

      Islam does not have this confession about Jesus. They look to Allah as their God and Mohamid as their prophet and are waiting for the twelfth Imam to appear and they consider Jesus as just another prophet Like Mohamid and not as the Son of God and the one who we are dependent upon for salvation.

      Simply put, “Whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son does not have have life and the wrath of God rests upon him.” The only way that anyone is going to be forgiven and inherit eternal life is through the confession of Jesus as the Christ. Islam as a religion will never share in the inheritence of those who believe in Jesus. By not believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is the only way to the Father, Islam is not even on the starting block.

      AS Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.”

      Anyone or any religion trying to enter in any other way except through Jesus who is the gate, is a thief and a robber and will not enter in. In other words, not all ways lead to God, but by one way only, which is through his Son, Yeshua Hamashiach.

      The five pillars of Islam will not get them there.

      Furthermore, the people of Islam are the ones who have been attacking and killing God’s people Israel and everyone else for that matter and that in the name of their god! regarding this, I believe that what God said to Abraham still stands:

      ” I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
      (Gen.12:3)

  31. Hi “alienated”!

    Oh…don’t be sorry…I’m NOT! lol And please don’t forget, most of what I post are nothing more than “ideas” that cross my mind as I am reading these posts…I “attempt” to look at things from different perspectives to “see” if the “truths” hold up…so although I may sound like I disagree with some things…actually I do not, for most everything you “have” posted…I sincerely agree with!

    btw, I have NO idea what you are talking about concerning “Allah” or the “Qur’an”!!! as I have NO interest in them “what-so-ever!” My BAD!

    As for Thomas McElwain, in a discussion I had with him concerning the “Qur’an”, in “so-many-words”, he does NOT believe in everything it “says”…by the “inflection” in his voice at the time…he “more-or-less” advised my not to “waste-my-time” on it…meaning, my time would be better “spent” reading the Scriptures!

    As for the word “rapture”…tell me…is it in the Bible??? If NOT, then why “add” it to “…the Word of God???”

    As for “establishing” him (Thomas McElwain)…he’s already “very…well…established!”

    Bibliography of Thomas McElwain:

    *Mythological Tales and the Allegany Seneca: A Study of the Socio-Religious Context of Traditional Oral Phenomena in an Iroquois Community. Stockholm Studies in Comparative Religion 17. Stockholm: Almqvists & Wiksell International, 1978. ISBN 91-22-00181-6

    *Toward an ethnography of faith: Dair Abu Maqar (1979)

    *Semantic variation and change in Seneca language and religion (1979)

    *Methods in Mask Morphology: Iroquois False Faces in the Ethnographical Museum of Stockholm (1980)

    *Our Kind of People: Identity, Community and Religion on Chestnut Ridge. A Study of Native Americans in Appalachia. Stockholm Studies in Comparative Religion 20. Stockholm: Almqvists & Wiksell International, 1981. ISBN 91-20-04726-6

    *The archaic roots of eastern woodland eschatology (1986)

    *A comparison of some gigantic characters in Iroquois and Saami traditions (1987)

    *Seneca Iroquois concepts of time (1987)

    *The language of Seneca Christianity as reflected in hymns (1990)

    *Asking the stars: Seneca hunting ceremonial (1992)

    *Technology and the supernatural in native explanations of Seneca narrative (1992)

    *Rites of sacrifice in a Turkish Alevi village (1993)

    *A structural approach to the Biblical Psalms (1994)

    *Hello, I’m God: A Bektashi Rosary. London: Minerva, 1998. ISBN 0754101487.

    *Islam in the Bible. London: Minerva, 1998. ISBN 0-7541-0217-3.
    Available here from Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project (2002).

    *Shi’i beliefs in the Bible (London Lectures)

    *”Sufism Bridging East and West: the Case of the Bektashis” in Sufism in Europe and North America ed. David Westerlund (2004)

    *Makkah at Dawn: Diary of a Pilgrimage (2006)

    *The Beloved and I (2006)

    btw, did you read the post I referenced above @ Proof Directory of Feb 22, 2011, by “seventrumps” ??? Just curious what you think of his “viewpoint”…that’s all!

    don’t worry…we’re on the side! :)
    bob

    • Hi Bob,

      No, I didn’t read that particular post when I went there earlier. However, having seen that you have asked here, I did go and read it. (I actually copied and pasted it into my drafts, because it is going to take awhile to address each point specifically.)

      So, I can’t provided you a rebuttal to everything that is stated within that post by seventrumpets yet, but will do so for you as soon as I can get around to it. (sigh)
      It will take some time, and unfortunately will probably be pretty long. (What’s new. lol)

      Anyway’s hang in there, and I’ll post it here sometime down the road.

      Be Blessed

  32. Dearest Dru

    Be with “God” always. He lowers us sometimes to elevate us to our permanent place. But for children of God elevation isn’t required but paying the bills requires money.

    I don’t know why you won’t be available to meet with the group based on your change but You know the Lord. I know he will keep you.

    Dru I will remember you to the Lord, I think you for the times you prayed for me and my husband. I will miss seeing your comments and your challenging mind.

    I pray that the Lord will keep you forever and that we will see you in Heaven. Be abundantly blessed and when God gives you your own remember it isn’t money that makes people.

    Those who worked for the Lord had very little materially but spiritually they had it all. Today is a different world than that of the Apostles who evangelized around the world. Keep your eye on the Lord and he shall never let you fall from his hand.

    Dru, your spirit and your words are an ointment and a blessing, I know God will use you where ever you go. You will be in my prayers

    Pattie

  33. Hi All,

    Earlier, (back on June 4th.) I posted a composition regarding Matthew 25:1-13 about the Ten Virgins, which I believe explained what the distinctions are between those that will have the opportunity to enter through the door, and those that will not, when Yeshua comes for His bride during the catching away, or “rapture”.

    The difference is also explained very well, in this rather long commentary on the link that I will post below. It is through accepting Yeshua as our Savior that our “spirit” is “justified” and saved.

    It is through the process of “sanctification” that our “soul” is then saved as well.
    This is the distinction between those that will enter, and those that will not.

    http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs97.html

    Be Blessed

    • Also, those that live for themselves rather than for Yeshua through the Spirit, have indeed been warned beforehand in scripture. How much plainer can this be said?

      “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
      Romans 2:5

      ” but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness–indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;”
      Romans 2:8,9.

      Be Blessed for the word is sobering.

  34. the great falling away could be the temptation as there will be so many things going on and many false Christ.

    have a great day and God Bless

  35. Thanks, Marianne, for this interesting bit. You are in line with some local “experts” who also see it that way.

  36. I believe the rapture comes at the last trumpet, then God’s wrath comes. There is no where that I know of where Christ has three comings. The rapture and the resurrection of the dead and His coming occurs at the same time. We are raptured, those who have escaped the mark, which will be very few, then the Lord brings His wrath. This will happen at the end of the seventh year.
    We must prepare spiritually and physically for terrors we have never seen, and can’t even imagine.
    PREPARE!

    • Hi Mary Kay,

      I suspect that you didn’t read all the above content that has been provided before leaving your comment. Though you have the personal right to believe whatever it is that you wish to believe, in my opinion, I don’t believe that your premise actually lines up according to scripture.
      If you do choose to take the time to read all of the above, perhaps you may have a change of heart regarding the subject. But instead of trying to offer my opinion, or interpretation to you here, (where it is provided for all above), allow me to pose this question to you.

      Whenever God chose to chastise Israel it was because they had not sought out God in their hearts and had become rebellious in either their conduct, or in worshiping other gods. He would always warn them first of the coming consequences through the prophets, and if they repented and turned back to Him, then they were fine. If they didn’t, then what God had spoken through His prophets would come to pass.
      Now, the Old Testament and covenant is a foreshadowing of the New, therefore, the tribulation that will come to pass, is the worlds last and final opportunity they will have to once and for all, turn to God and accept Yeshua as their Savior. This is the point of the whole tribulation and of Gods wrath being poured out upon an unbelieving world that no longer worships Him, His Son, or His Spirit.

      So, since in the past if the Jews repented and returned to the Lord they were ultimately spared of any consequences, what sense does it make for God to all of a sudden change His method of operation and punish those that already worship Him, accept His Son Yeshua as their Savior and are filled with the Spirit?

      If someone doesn’t totally understand scripture regarding this particular topic, then that is more than understandable because you really have to think outside of the box so to speak.
      However when you look at the question that I posed above, it should make you at least question your belief.

      Be Blessed

  37. alienated,
    So if I understand you, the tribulation of Revelation is not for Christians, who will already be raptured, but for other religions who do not already believe in Christ?
    If this is the case, this would be a first in the bible – a book NOT written for God’s people? In the Old Testament, God punished His people, the Jews, who all believed He was their true God, but they were not obeying His laws and commandments. For that they were punished.
    Why don’t you think that today’s churches might not be chastised for their un-biblical teachings and practices. The Catholic church alone is full of blasphemies. Will it be accepted as Christ’s bride along with every other denomination?
    Your thoughts?

    • Excuse me Alienated for jumping in here and if I may James,

      In answer to your question James, for those who are in Christ and are continuing in faith, the penalty for sins have been paid for and the wrath that we deserve has been satisfied through Jesus’ perfect life in the flesh and his sacrifice on the cross. Does this mean that we have free reign to sin because we are free in Christ,?No! The fact is that we sin throughout our lives whether in deed or in thought and that simply because we are sinners, which is exactly why Christ came. We should not use our freedom in Christ to fulfill the desires of the sinful nature, but to be a slave to righteousness to glorify God. For those who are in Christ the penalty for sin and the wrath that goes with it has been satisfied, because Jesus paid the penalty on our behalf and also took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Therefore, since the payment for sin and the wrath that accompanies it has been satisfied, God does not require another payment for through faith we have been reconciled to God. For the rewards for sin is death, which Jesus already paid for. When we sin, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to foregive us our sins. So, for those who are continuing in Christ, our sins past, present and future are covered as long as we continue in faith. For those who remain in Christ it is now a continuous life process of being transformed into his image, that is, as we continue in faith, the new man in Christ is increasing and the old nature is being displaced.

      For those who are in Christ, God the Father sees us a perfect even though we are not and that because Christ lived a perfect life in the flesh as a man, being our kinsman redeemer, that is, Christ is standing in our place as fulfilling all righteousness. Just as father Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed God, so are we credited with righteousness because of our faith in Jesus Christ. Are we still sinners? Yes, but all of our sins have been paid for and that because we have the one who paid for them sitting at the right hand of the Father and who is speaking on our behalf, that is always making intercession for us.

      Now in regards to tribulation, though those saints during that last seven years will be going through tribulation at the hands of the beast and the false prophet, the wrath of God is running parallel to that tribulation, in fact, everything that the beast does is part of God’s wrath, it is not separate so that you can divide tribulation from wrath as many seem to do. Everything that takes place during this time falls under the banner of the “Day of the Lord.” This is God pouring out his wrath upon an unrepentent, Christ rejectiong world and we who have already received Christ and have repentent hearts, are not appointed to suffer that wrath. And since the entire world will be exposed to God’s wrath, we cannot be here.

      Also, regarding Roman Catholicism, this is not the church of Christ, it is the furthest you can get. Roman Catholicism is paganism wearing Christian clothing. However, God has people of faith within her and he is calling them to come out of here and will continue to do so throughout those last days so that they will not suffer the same fate as the protitute, that false religious system that is claiming to be of christ.

      • Hi Don!

        “…regarding Roman Catholicism, this is not the church of Christ, it is the furthest you can get.” Amen to that brother! I “Pray” the rest of the world opens their eyes to this “fact!”

        However, “ALL” of us shall witness “tribulation!” Those of “us” that keep the faith in Jesus Christ will be “delivered” from “…a great tribulation…”, for if “we” did NOT have to endure it, why then, would He tell us to stay “true” to Him??? The ultimate fate of those that do not believe WILL perish! Those of us that keep the faith…WILL join Him in Heaven!

        Really…as you have eluded to in previous comments…for those of us that believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Scriptures, we have nothing to fear! We know this already, but, as Jesus instructed, we “have to” do as He did, and help our neighbor to understand as we would want them to do for us!

        God Bless!

    • Hi James,

      I was wondering when it was that you would finally stop by this page to post your thoughts, and I am so very thankful that you have.

      And Don, you are welcome as always to express your comments regarding this, and I agree fully with what it is that you have to say. Now if I may respond to James as well here.

      “James”,

      I would first like to say this first, I have read many of your posts that you have written over the last year or so regarding various topics, and it is obvious that you are intelligent, logically referenced in as to how you process information, articulate, and possess a wonderful sense of humor. I suspect that you would be a joy in many respects to associate with.

      With that said though, we do differ in many aspects of theology. One of which would be regarding this particular topic of discussion. It is my understanding that you regard what is referred to theologically as the “rapture” as an event that has simply been fabricated by the addle minded without any Biblical foundation or supportive scripture whatsoever.

      I have also noticed that when discussing topics with others, you hold fast to what it is that you believe personally, and debate solely for your position.
      In many respects this could be considered to be an admirable quality. However it does suggest in your approach, that you simply believe that you possess all the knowledge that there is to know regarding the Holy script of God, and therefore do not accept the possibility that perhaps, just perhaps, there is something that is still available and wondrous for you to learn. So in addressing that particular point, “How would that have worked out for the Berean’s?” As well, how if one simply chooses to disregard and dismiss further possibilities, could one even “meditate” over them, as Philippians 4:8 appears to suggest?

      So it is with that, that I also challenge you to consider the possibility. I ask for you to be fair minded in that you receive the word with all readiness and search the scriptures daily to find out if whether these things were so.

      I ask for you to take the necessary time required to read all of the above of Don’s and my posts, with an open mind and with the blessings of the Spirit. I ask that you unlock the lid of your spiritual box and be prepared to think beyond its dimensional limitations.

      Now I will address the questions that you pose above for you.

      You say above, “So if I understand you, the tribulation of Revelation is not for Christians, who will already be raptured, but for other religions who do not already believe in Christ?
      If this is the case, this would be a first in the bible – a book NOT written for God’s people? In the Old Testament, God punished His people, the Jews, who all believed He was their true God, but they were not obeying His laws and commandments. For that they were punished.”

      I don’t believe that this would be a “first” in the Bible at all.
      Lets look at the point that you are making above, and see if it holds up in a logical sense.

      With your point in referring to the book of Revelation specifically, you are saying that it is only a book that is relative to and for Christians, correct? Well if we were to back up a bit, and still apply that train of thought that you are presenting, then that would mean that the whole of the Old Testament including the Gospels, would not have any relevant application for Gentile believers as well. This would simply be because up to the time of Cornelius, (which was some 15 to 20 years after the death of Yeshua on the cross), the chosen or elect of God, consisted only of those that were of Jewish lineage. Therefore, in keeping within the parameters of your premise, these are not applicable to Gentile believers at all.

      So obviously, the “first” that you are now attempting to apply to the book of Revelation, has already occurred before in the past, in that what was formally only for the Jewish is now also applicable and relevant with the inclusion of the Gentiles as well. Therefore since the precedent has already been established in the past, that means that the book of Revelation could therefore have relevance to a people in the future. Just like the Old Testament and Gospels have relevance for us as Gentiles. (The Jewish people and the rest of unbelieving mankind for example.)

      You then ask, “Why don’t you think that today’s churches might not be chastised for their un-biblical teachings and practices. The Catholic church alone is full of blasphemies. Will it be accepted as Christ’s bride along with every other denomination?”

      That is a fair question and if you will allow me to respond. In my opinion, I do not think that all who profess to be a Christian will be included within this rapture event, and that there will be those that unfortunately will be left behind to suffer through the tribulation itself. If you are to take this discussion seriously and consider this event to perhaps be at least a possibility, then I ask you again that you read all of the posts above, and to pay particular attention to a study that I conducted, and posted, regarding that of the Ten Virgins of Matthew 25:1-13. In it I think that you will see, that It will only be the “wise” that will be considered worthy to be the bride.

      Here is another question as well James, “What would be the point logically, after Yeshua has explained to His disciples what will happen during what within the context, is obviously the tribulation times, to make the following statement?”

      “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36. NKJV.

      Again, the context of the chapter is what will happen during the tribulation, the man of sin, and God’s wrath.
      What else is it possibly that Yeshua could be referring to, to pray to be worthy of “escape” from?

      ” Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, “we shall be saved from wrath through Him”. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” Romans 5:9,10. NKJV.

      “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:35,36. NKJV.

      “For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10.

      “But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11. NKJV.

      Therefore, those that will be considered “worthy” to “escape” will be “only” those that live totally (within the best of their ability), in the fullness of the Spirit. These would be the “wise” virgins of which God knows our hearts, and is more than capable to make that decision.

      And to substantiate the point that I make above were I say, “Now, the Old Testament and covenant is a foreshadowing of the New, therefore, the tribulation that will come to pass, is the worlds last and final opportunity they will have to once and for all, turn to God and accept Yeshua as their Savior. This is the point of the whole tribulation and of Gods wrath being poured out upon an unbelieving world that no longer worships Him, His Son, or His Spirit.” I will provide the following scripture to indicate “who” it is exactly that this “wrath” of God is for.

      ” For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” Romans 1:17-21. NKJV.

      “And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness–indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” Romans 2:3-10. NKJV.

      “Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting”, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, “that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” Let no one deceive you with empty words,” for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience”. Ephesians 5:1-6. NKJV.

      ” If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: “fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience”, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.” Colossians 3:1-7. NKJV.

      I believe that the above scripture would indicate that God’s wrath and tribulation, is the resulting punishment for those that are not in Yeshua, and are instead those that are “the sons of disobedience” that still live for themselves in practicing all of the above sins and do not acknowledge God, His Son, or Spirit whatsoever.
      And I believe that this will also include those who profess to being Christians yet live a lifestyle that is virtually indistinguiahable from that of the secular public. This therefore, can not include those that are in Yeshua and that live by faith alone in Him.

      Though the coming tribulation and ensuing wrath with be a devisating and horrible experience for those that go through it, I believe that it also an act of God’s mercy at the same time. For it is in essence, His last ditch attempt to turn the hearts of an unbelieving, unworshipping earthy population back to Him before it is simply to late to do so.

      “Is all of this even fair, that a loving, merciful God would even choose to do all of this?”

      “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.” “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.” Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved. For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” Romans 9:14-28. NKJV.

      Be Blessed

  38. Alienated and Don,

    I offer you a different endtime scenario:

    Genesis 3:15 (King James Version)

    15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    While to a certain degree, these two seeds have been shown to portray ethnic tendencies, in the final analysis they are actually spiritual. The seed of the serpent representing those who are anti-messiah, while the seed of the woman representing those who are of the Word of Yah (Mashiach). Every individual who has ever been born, is in one of these two groups. What did Yahshua say, you are either for me or against me. You are either gathering or scattering. There is no third seed here. No one can sit this out and be innocent. The default position is with the seed of the serpent. Cain, Ishmael, and Esau represent the seed of the serpent. All three were the first born and all three were rejected by Yah. Abel, Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Yisrael) represent the seed of the woman. I put Abel in there to show that this was Yah’s plan from the very beginning. Just as a side note, I have heard discussions about the offerings that Cain and Abel made, with Cain’s being rejected and Abel’s being accepted. I have read comments about the law not being given yet and there was no way to know what the proper sacrifice was. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they understood what was right and what was wrong. The instructions had not been given yet, but it was understood. The Torah was present in the garden because it is the heart of the Father. Cain and Abel knew what they were doing when they sacrificed, one willfully obeyed and the other willfully disobeyed. They each showed which seed they were of through their sacrifices. In the same way, Noah took extra of the clean animals for sacrifices. Before the law was given at Sinai, these things were understood. There is a lot more that could be said about all of this, but it is not the purpose of this post.

    The scriptures seem to point to the fact that ethnically the seed of the serpent is Middle Eastern. While that can be said, it is only partially true. That region of the world was the cradle of civilization and the beginning of all things, which included the struggle of the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. The seed of the serpent was and is present everywhere man is to be found. By contrast, the seed of the woman was only present in the forefathers of Yisrael. I don’t think there is any need to explain that. I believe most understand that “the woman” is Yisrael. This seed also seeming to be ethnic, is spiritual. While Jacob became Yisrael, his children became the nation of Yisrael.

    Joshua 8:33
    Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

    33And all Israel, and its elders, and authorities, and its judges, are standing on this side and on that of the ark, over-against the priests, the Levites, bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah, as well the sojourner as the native, half of them over-against mount Gerizim, and the half of them over-against mount Ebal, as Moses servant of Jehovah commanded to bless the people of Israel at the first.

    As you can see in the above verse, Yah made provision for the stranger (the seed of the serpent) in Yisrael. All that was required of them was to live and believe and do as the nation of Yisrael had been instructed by Yah. That was it, no matter what ethnicity they had been born into. These stangers, who were formally of the seed of the serpent, by obedience to Yah, became a unite with the House of Yisrael (the seed of the woman). At that point there was no distinction between he who was “grafted in” and the homeborn. They had become of the seed of the woman. Notice how the last portion of the verse states “as Moses servant of Jehovah commanded to bless the people of Israel at the first.” Notice that the stranger (sojourner) even as the native were both of Yisrael. Over the thousands of years that has passed since the Garden, there are still only two seeds, that of the serpent and that of the woman. We know that the seed of the woman is the word of Yah and was given to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Yisrael). It is what binds us to Him, each other, and Yisrael. All who do not have the word of Yah in them are of the seed of the serpent. I know I am belaboring this, but only to make these things completely clear.

    If we fast forward to today, how has any of this changed? NONE!!!! There are still only two seeds, one of the serpent and one of the woman (Yisrael). The question is, how does that affect us who are not ethnic Yisrael, yet have the word of Yah (the Mashiach) present in us? It makes us (as non ethnic Yisrael) the same as the homeborn. It makes the land of Yisrael, and all that entails, our inheritance.

    Isaiah 14:1-2

    1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
    2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

    This is an endtime prophesy. You will notice the reference to the strangers being joined to them and cleaveing to the house of Jacob (Yisrael). Who do you think the strangers are that Yah is referring to in verse 1? Other translations have foreigners or proseltyes in the place of strangers (just to more accurately pinpoint what is being said here). These are people from other nations around the world who have the word of Yah (Mashiach) in them, but are not ethnic Yisrael. This is the church or anyone else regardless of religious names, that embraces the Messiah Yahshua and lives and obeys His instructions (Torah). Do you understand why there is no mention of what is called the church in the book of Revelations? Outside of the letters to the seven churches, which could have and I believe should have been translated more correctly to say assemblies or congregations, there is no mention of Yah having another group of people. The same word in Hebrew that was used for the assembly at Mount Sinai, was basically the same Greek word used in the book of Revelations for the seven letters. When you get right down to it, the book of Revelations is all about “the woman”, Yisrael. Because believing gentiles have not known who they are of for the past 2000 years, does not negate the fact that we are and always have been of the seed of the woman (Yisrael). In these last days, Yah will send Elijah the prophet to turn the heart of fathers to the children and the heart of the children to the fathers.

    Malachi 4

    1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The fathers referred to here are the fathers of our faith; Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Yisrael). The children are the disobedient ones, who having the seed of the woman in them, have left the ways of the fathers of Yisrael. Verse 4 tells us what we have forgotten “Remember ye the law of Moses”.
    You might be thinking, no way have we had this wrong for 2000 years. Look at the Jews, they have had it wrong for 2000 years, just in a different way. Lest anyone comes back and makes the statement that “we are no longer under the law, we live now by grace”, understand that your salvation is between you and the Father. I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone one will work out their own salvation with Yah, hopefully with fear and trembling. It is just not a good place to be in working against what the Father is doing. Yah will determine what the cost of disobedience is.

    Be Blessed In Mashiach

    • Hi ashupert2,

      Though I agree that some of what you propose has merit, I wish that it reflected more regarding the particular topic of discussion here, which is that of the “rapture”.
      Simply because there are dire consequences for those that do not fully understand this mystery.

      However I will respond to what you say “just this one time”, in not wishing to change the subject at hand. Though I agree with you in your premise that there are only two seeds, and that we are indeed grafted into the faith, (due to the fact that Israel denied the Messiah Himself), I believe that in Genesis 3:15, that God was referring more to Yeshua as in being the seed that would bruise the head of the serpent.

      And it is my belief and understanding, that what the Lord was referring to in Malachi 4 above that you quoted, was referring to the end of days scenario, and that in regarding the Law, (with God not as of yet revealing Yeshua (Himself) to the world) that He was left with no other option than to utilize the only Law that existed at that particular time, which were indeed the Ten Commandments of the Torah.

      These were given at the very first Shavuot, (Pentecost) and were replaced within the New and better Covenant on Shavuot years later and 50 days after Yeshua’s death on the cross, by the Holy Spirit.

      I do not wish to debate the subject here on this page, so this is the last that I will respond regarding anything to do with the Law here.

      Be Blessed

  39. Alienated, Don and others,
    Thank you for your prayers and concern. I Just wanted to clarify a couple of points. My “leaving” has nothing to do with any of the disagreements, or what was said here on the site. It is just that other things are drawing my focus away from the topics being discussed. I do not have all the time to study and respond properly to what is being discussed here. I have been reading your posts.

    If I may, direct you all to some often ignored passages in the bible on these topics at hand, and perhaps you will see some of the things that I have been studying. First of all, The “upper room discourse” which is only found in John’s gospel (chapters 13-16) and followed by Jesus High priestly prayer (chapter 17). Note especially what is said after Judas leaves (13:30), His new commandment, also found in chapter fifteen.

    Now I am curious to see how you would place what is said in the following verses in your studies on the ten virgins.
    John 13:34-35
    John 15:8
    John 15:27-16:4
    John 16:12
    John 16:33
    John 17:15-24

    As a side bar to this, Jesus drank the cup of God’s wrath, (John 18:11, Matt 26:39, Luke 22:42) See also Marianne’s Page “Cup and final baptism of Jesus”.

    The question all this raises for me is this. If Jesus drank the cup of God’s wrath on our behalf, and we are given a new commandment to love one another as Christ loved us, will we also be called to drink from the cup, not to face God’s wrath, but rather to be a testimony of God’s sanctifying work in us?

    Now read the last verse in the old testament, and see if it makes more sense. If not, forgive me for wasting your time.

    I will refrain from defending my thoughts on this topic, but will consider your answers carefully.

    God bless and thank you again for your prayers.

    • dear dru

      I read all the passages you cited. I think I can see where you are going. Instead of people arguing over when the rapture might occur, they might want to question if the have the “oil” that is in the lamps of the 5 virgins selected. Also, it might not be the type of oil they think it is, if it runs out so quickly. Since all were virgins, they were all born again.

      • Hi Marianne,

        Just “because” they were ALL “virgins” is NOT a “guarantee” that they are “born again!” The “pre-requisite” to being “born again” is as “alienated” pointed out, they must be “true” Christians, carrying the Holy Spirit in their “Heart” and “Soul” as Jesus instructed. “alienated” is very clear in his studies of the “Ten Virgins!”

        God Bless!

      • Oil=Holy Spirit=Jesus=God=Love Therefore Oil=love (I John4:8)

    • Dear Dru,

      Wonderful to hear from you, I pray that you and yours are well.

      Regarding the Gospel of John, (which is by the way, the only book in the Bible that was expressly written in order to bring the lost to the truth of Yeshua, John:20:30.) and the Commandment of which you bring attention to, (John 13:30. and 15:12 and 17.

      It is with this Commandment in mind and heart, as to “why” it is that I passionately continue on with this topic.
      It is not of “my will”, neither is it my desire to simply be “right” regarding this theory of the upcoming rapture.
      It is instead the will of God the Father, and of my desire to be obedient to His call.

      I have stated to Bob earlier in one of my posts above, “That I feel like one “crying out” in the wilderness.” for though the rapture itself is an event, my mission is one of hopefully “opening the eyes” of those who don’t fully understand.
      And my motivation is born out of love and that of concern.

      This Commandant that Yeshua voices, is the Commandant that “ultimately fulfills” all the Law of the Torah, (Matthew 5:17). Where there are those who still hold fast to the old, choosing to maintain the ritualized ceremonial traditions of Judaism, that resemble more of that of the Catholic Church, than to accept the gift of the Holy Spirit alone. And in doing so, choose “how” to worship , rather than “who” they worship as being their priority. Which then places their salvation solely dependant upon what it is that they do, (attempting to earn by their own effort and works) rather than what it is that has already been accomplished for us, by the glory of the Lord Himself alone .

      As it has been throughout millennia, God has called His chosen to repentance, and He is doing so again today.
      Though we as Christians have been given the free gift of grace, accompanied by the blessings of the Spirit,(which places us in the position of reconciliation in being justified before God through Yeshua our Lord), He then leaves us with our free will as well, as to whether we will choose to remain and maintain relationship.

      This choice, which is indeed ours to make, is described within the “Parable of the Sower” (Matthew 13:1-9. and explained in verses 18-23.) It is in verse “23″ itself that the correlation to the parable of the Ten Virgins can be made, (Matthew 25:1-13.) and as well, to the “Parable of the Talents” (Matthew 25:14-30.).

      The parable of the Ten Virgins is a description of the “rapture” and who it is that will be selected as the “bride” for Yeshua. Those that do not “quench” the Spirit.
      (1 Thess.5:19)

      The parables of “the Sower, and of the Talents” as well as others, are a further description of what it is that constitutes the distinctions between the “wise” and the “foolish”. It is obvious by its context, that some will find the door shut, and will unfortunately be left behind having bore no fruit of the Spirit. (At this time in how these demonstrated their faith in their daily walk, and in bearing no fruit, their appearance before the Bema Seat of the Lord would be redundant, and therefore is not necessary. Though with God being merciful, they will be given another opportunity during the tribulation.)

      Matthew 25:30 itself is not speaking of “hell”.
      This becomes apparent by the choice of words that He utilized, and the context of what He had just been previously discussing. He could have easily utilized the word “Geenna” (Strong’s 1067), which then would have been translated as the word “hell”, (as it has been throughout the book itself where He makes the statement numerous times “cast into hell”). However instead, He utilized “Skotos” (Strong’s 4655) which was translated into the English word “darkness”.
      Within its definitions it states; “of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality”. This then, since “Geenna” itself was not utilized, must logically be referring to something else other than hell. Where I believe it is referring to those that are “foolish”, being subjected to the tribulation and that of God’s wrath, where there will most certainly be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”.

      Lets also look at Matthew 22 and the “Parable of the Wedding Feast” itself. (Matthew 22:1-14.).
      I will post it below for the sake of convenience;

      “1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.”

      (This is referring to God (the King), Yeshua (the Son), and the formerly chosen of God, the Jews and the spiritual Nation of Israel)

      “4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ‘ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.”

      (This is referring to God sending prophet after prophet to His people, only for the people to disregard the message, continue on with their cares of their lives, practice idolatry etc. and eventually kill those that had been sent.)

      “7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.”

      (This is “prophetic” in content. For it is referring to the Romans and the destruction of the Temple which after the death of Yeshua on the cross, would be no longer necessary anyways, since His was the ultimate fulfilling sacrifice. As well it is prophetic in referring to Gentile Christians and of Yeshua’s statement that He made in Matthew 21:43. “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.”)

      “10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

      (“Those servants” above in verse 10, is referring to the new nation of disciples, (Gentiles) that fulfill the “Great Commission” and spread the word of truth, and put into practice in their lives, the fulfilling Commandment “to love one another”. These live by the fruit of the Spirit. And it is only those with wedding garments that will be either be able to attend, or participate within this ceremony. Only those that bore the fruit of the Spirit, by surrendering that of self, and maintaining the desire for abiding relationship. Though it will be impossible to enter without a wedding garment, if one attempts to as described above, they will rather unapologetically, be forcefully ejected into what again is the phrase, “into outer darkness;” where “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Which as stated before is not representative to that of hell, but rather of that to the “tribulation and wrath” instead.)

      And it is out of love and my concern for others, and that of what Yeshua expresses in verse 14, where, “For many are called, but few are chosen.” that I continue on with this endeavor. With the deepest hope, that some will understand the future consequences, and not depend solely on the fact that they have been “born again” as in being some type of “free ticket to paradise” to place their ultimate trust in.
      For Yeshua is speaking to all that have been called when He says,
      “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
      Luke 21:36.
      “Yet not all will listen, and not all that have been called, will be chosen.”

      In respects to your question Dru, regarding the “cup of wrath” that Yeshua consumed.
      Yeshua indeed, drank of the cup. It is only through Him that we have any means whatsoever of escaping God’s wrath. For only He is worthy to substitute Himself in our place. However, this is not “carte blanche” for everyone who has simply been born again. Being born again is only the first prerequisite. It is neither a guarantee of salvation itself, (see John 15:1-6. James 5:19 and Matthew 7:21-28 for just a few examples) nor a promise of acceptance. One must make the choice to continue in the faith itself. Romans 11:22 is just one of many examples;

      “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you “continue” in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

      I am attempting by the grace of God, to call all of us to “repentance”, so all that will listen could be found “worthy to escape”, as this time grows ever nearer to coming into fruition. It is with the deepest hope in my heart that some that read and take into consideration all that I, and my dear brother Don have written above, will then realize the error of their ways, and seek out the Spirit with all of their heart.
      That they then may be found when the time comes, to be able to enter through that very door.

      This has nothing to do with debating a theory, for we are simply stating the word of the Lord.
      It is also not for our glory whatsoever either, in perhaps being right in this theory, or being esteemed by men, (though I do appreciate your compliments Bob), but rather it is for the glory of our almighty God the Father, and His beloved our Savior, and those that may not fully understand the requirements of their calling.

      And do please understand Dru, I do this totally out of the Spirit of love. Amen.

      Be Blessed

      • An Appendix to the above that I initially forgot to include;

        20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matthew 7:20-27.

        The word lawlessness in verse 23, is not referring to that of the Torah, but rather to that of the “quenching” of the “Spirit of truth”.

        “30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. 31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” Matthew 12:30-32. (Luke 12:10.)

        Be Blessed

      • Hi “alienated”

        “Truth” is not a theory…as it says in the Scripture, everything will be revealed in the End Times…and so it is with what you have written thus far! I concur with most everything you posted as I have been reading these same explanations from various people for the last ten to fifteen years or more.

        What I know, comes from deep within my Heart where the Holy Spirit dwells. The “thoughts” come from my mind and are just that…”thoughts”…nothing more, for I am still a “man!” Therefore, when my “thoughts” conflict with Scripture, I “throw-out” my thoughts and am consoled by the Holy Spirit. AND ya’ kno’ what? The Holy Spirit, always guides me in the right direction!!! :)

        I do not “praise” you for what you write, but for your intentions of opening the eyes of someone still “baffled” by Satan and the evil ways of society! Just as I do (albeit, sometimes not as effectively as you!) or at least…”try” too! Like I have said before, I am not too concerned with the order of events, the details, or the timing, for that matter…what I am concerned with is making sure I remain, vigilant, and spread the Good News to everyone I encounter…just as Jesus did!

        So you see, it is very “heart-warming” to find others that believe in the same things as I do. Which is why, rather than calling myself a Christian, or a True Christian, I prefer to say, “I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.”

        hmmmm!!!…just now in writing that, I realized I may change that to, “I follow the instructions of Jesus Christ.”

        What do you think? :)

        God Bless ALL!

        • Hi Bob,

          I suspect that the latter would be the most beneficial for all of us to do.

          Unfortunately, what I say above is not a “warm & fuzzy” doctrine. However the docrine itself is not mine to begin with, so I can’t necessarily be held responsible for its truth.

          Both faith and repentance are a gift from God for us to maintain relationship,
          they are simply two sides of the same coin, and it is up to us as individuals to chose to participate in the both of them.

          Bob and all, rarely do I suggest that people tune into a particular Pastor to receive the word, but this evening I was sent a link by a brother, to one who’s been blessed with a powerful voice and understanding of God’s word.

          I have just spent the last 4 hours listening to his sermon of crucifixtion and salvation, (the first part 1 I posted, is probably below this now)
          However, this is his site, and may all be blessed in what he has to say.

          http://www.disciplemakingintl.org/media/schurch/?cur_tab=series

          Be Blessed

      • Alienated
        God’s love for us is such that it not only fills us, it overflows from us. When we love others in a Godly way, it is God’s love which is flowing through us. “If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not Love, I gain nothing.” (I cor. 13:3)

        The same is said for tongues, prophecy, knowledge, and faith.

        Love is the key, love is the oil for the virgins. When God’s love flows through us, It is not our work of Love, but God’s.

        This is the “more excellent way”. Icorinthians 12:31b

        I do not disagree with what you say, I only wish that you take it to the next level. Would we be willing to drink from the cup, as Christ did, for those who do not “deserve” “rapture”? Especially those who are children in the faith and still drinking milk. I know you would die for your own children, but what about the children, and brothers of our faith?

        • Hi Dru,

          The first thing I want you to understand here, (since mere words can somtimes be misunderstood), is that there is no hard feelings between you and I at all, and that anything I say below, is simply to make a point. Okay?

          I am not completely sure what it is that you are trying to convey, or if I even fully understand your point here?

          In by quoting what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:3 are you suggesting that you believe by what he is saying, that he is expecting “to deliver up his body to be burned”?
          If so, then I would say that you have taken this verse out of context.
          Which I would not even have questioned, if it wasn’t for what you say with the following, “I only wish that you take it to the next level. Would we be willing to drink from the cup, as Christ did, for those who do not “deserve” rapture? Especially those who are children in the faith and still drinking milk.”

          Regarding the above; Firstly, I don’t believe that I would have the “right” to make that decision?
          Let me put it to you this way, if Yeshua beckoned to you at the time of this event with open arms, would you “deny Him” as well as the “will of God” that you were chosen to participate?
          Would you say, “Nope, sorry Lord, but I’m going to stay, you can take somebody else?”
          That sounds awful heroic, but I suspect that you wouldn’t.

          And though the sentiment may sound nice, I don’t believe that there is a Christian dead or alive today that would do that. For that in essence is denying Yeshua’s death on the cross!
          It is denying what He did to satisfy the righteous judgment of God Himself, and for us, so we could be reconciled to Him.
          That is literally what you would be doing by saying “no”.

          (And by the way, I have no idea as to what it is that you have experienced or sacrificed in your life, so I would never say to you,” I only wish that you take it to the next level. Would we be willing to drink from the cup.” For you have no idea as to what my cup of life experience consists of. Now again, I am not upset with you here in saying that, however I am just making a point. Judgment on any level whatsoever, is not an expression of love.

          Now, if you are “not” suggesting the above, and I have misunderstood you and taken what you are trying to say out of context, and you are simply utilizing the verse to substantiate the importance of “love” itself, I for one can not disagree with scripture. And secondly, I agree totally with love being the complete and ultimate fulfillment of the law! Yeshua Himself states;

          “37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40.

          Above you say, “Love is the key, love is the oil for the virgins. When God’s love flows through us, It is not our work of Love, but God’s.”

          I agree with this, except I would change the wording of what you say the middle here, “the “oil” for the virgins is what allows for the “capacity to love” as Yeshua commands”.
          Without the “oil” or if we “quench that oil” we are simply left without the ability to fully love God, show compassion, to give from our heart freely, to simply love one another, and in all that word encompasses, let alone love our enemies as well.

          Though I am sorry that you don’t seem to correlate my efforts above to warn others to repent and ensure that they are worthy to participate in this event, as being done out of my outpouring of love for others, (which I attempted to explain above for you), I must close in saying that, I do know, having a comprehensive sense of the grief, the pain, and the wrath of God that Yeshua experienced on the cross for the likes of me, is something that I am forever grateful for, and would never, ever, deny. Amen.

          Be Blessed

        • dru and alienated

          just a note…though out history, the most loving people died for their faith. They were not spared persecutions or tribulations.

          We do not know what the future holds for each of us.

        • alienated
          Yes you misunderstood my point. If Jesus calls me to be raptured, I will not deny his will. If he calls me to go through tribulation, I will not deny his will either. In quoting I corinthians above, I was making the point that without love our “sacrifices” mean nothing. That the love of God is the oil that the ten virgins all had, but which the five wise ones had “extra” of.

          The point that I disagree with your theory on is that those who are children in the faith, and still drinking milk will be excluded from God’s mercy. This is contradictory to God’s mercy, and love as expressed in scripture. The Last shall be first, is how I view it.

          By introducing the commandment in the upper room discourse, Jesus was telling us that in the future we would be called to suffer for our beliefs. You wrote to Al that paul introduced the concept of the rapture. It was in this upper room discourse that Jesus himself talked about it. Paul was given a more detailed account of it.

          We here in the U.S. are so immune to suffering for our faith, that we have no idea what it is like. Choices like the one I described above are common in the countries where Christianity is not “protected” by law as it is in the U.S.. Is the time coming like that for us here in the U.S.? Yes. will we be prepared for it is another question. Would you be willing to love a methodist, and a catholic, or just those in your denomination? how about those who are “Immatture” in their faith?

          I john 2:12-14 talks about the three levels of our spiritual maturity. Children, Young men, and Fathers. I John 4:16ff describes spiritual maturity as love perfected in us. “17. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of Judgement, because as he is so also are we in the world. 18. There is NO fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19. We love, because he first loved us. 20. If anyone says ‘I love God’ and hates his brother, he is a liar…

          My point being with all this, Love perfected, does not fear tribulation, punishment, for we are immune. If we are called to go through the tribulation (His will not mine), then so be it. Being prepared is being filled to overflowing with the love of God, Which allows us to look beyond our own salvation, but to reach out to those that are children in the faith.

          This is not an attack on you, nor your interpretation of scripture. It is meant to encourage you to look beyond your own salvation, and to reach out to others with Godly love. In other words take the next step and equate the oil not only as the Holy spirit, but with God’s love, as I expressed in the “logic statement” I made above.

          God bless.

          • Hi Dru,

            I just happened to check in here, (which is weird because I didn’t want to at all) but seeing that I have, I will address what you have to say, to clear something up. (this may also explain why, after deleting my browsing history, I can’t seem to post anything anymore with the changes that wordpress has made, and I had to ask Marianne if she would please post my reply for me.)

            Above you say, “The point that I disagree with your theory on is that those who are children in the faith, and still drinking milk will be excluded from God’s mercy.”

            Where above in all that I have written, did I actually say that Dru?
            I would never make my own claims as to who it is that God will choose specifically to give to His Son Yeshua for His bride. That is solely up to Him.

            This was an assumption on your part, based upon how you received or misinterpreted that which I had said.

            God is the ultimate One to make this decision and just because an individual is “new” to the faith, and may not possess biblical knowledge, and therefore would still be drinking milk, does not mean that they, because of the purity and desire in their heart will not be considered to be “wise”.

            Biblical academia ensures nothing. One could quote scripture from “Aleph to Tav” which would simply correlate to as being “works” and they would be no further ahead than when they started. Those that are “wise” will be only those that place their total faith in Yeshua alone, period. That is the only way that one can maintain the “oil” or the “fire” of the Spirit. That is what ultimately, my study of the Ten Virgins revealed! To maintain ones faith and to abide in Him and Him alone. Read Galatians 2:11-21.and Romans 3:21-26.

            You also ask above, “Would you be willing to love a Methodist, and a Catholic, or just those in your denomination? how about those who are “Immature” in their faith?”

            Dru as I have said before, you have no idea as to my walk of faith. I have have spent years in dealing with those that are homeless and addicted to substances of all kinds. I have gone on prayer walks into the darkest of alley ways in the downtown core, and into the lairs of crack houses to pray and help others. Which after surgery for an ailment that currently leaves me disabled, I plan to get involved with again with the grace of God.
            So to answer your question succinctly, “Yes”.

            The rest of what you pose is in relation to your misplaced assumption regarding “the point that you disagree with”. So I don’t feel it necessary to respond.

            Be Blessed.

            posted by marianne for alienated who is having computer issues.

            • Alienated
              forgive me for the incorrect assumption. your response is what I wanted to hear though. The “danger” in your theory is that it borders on “exclusivity”, which is often what occurs when discussions on who are the elect occur. God’s love is the equalizer in all discussions on the elect. Without his love all of these pieces of wisdom we attain will lead us to put ourselves on a pedestal. I have been there and done that before, and do not wish others to put themselves there!

              In that respect, if anything I said offended you, please accept my heartfelt apology. AS you may or may not realize, we agree on more than we disagree on. May the Lord continue to lead you in your studies through the Holy Spirit which resides in you. The Lord will choose whom he chooses to be the bride, or to face persecution, or whatever, not on our merit, or our knowledge, but rather on his will. I will end with a Passage of scripture which seems appropriate. II Corinthians 7:8-13. May God bless you, Brother.

            • Marianne
              You may give alienated my email address if he requests it. if he cannot respond here.

  40. 58 minutes of truth regarding the above.

    http://www.disciplemakingintl.org/media/schurch/view/504/secret-church-crucifixion-salvation-and-the-glory-of-god-part-1/video?filter=series

  41. Our LORD YESHUA said that the whole world will be like S & G when the Sodomists will have nothing and nobody to stop them from doing what they want to do to others. Our LORD will never allow His Bride to be attacked in this way so HE will take His Bride before this prophecy is fulfilled.

  42. Alienated,

    I know it seems like I was not on topic, but a foundation had to be built first of defining who we really are as believer’s from the nations, Yisrael. It “might” make things easier to swallow. But, having read some of your stuff, probably not, but that is okay. I am not looking for blind acceptance here. The one thing that I am sure of, these things raise the ire of many. But that can’t be helped either. The purpose of writing this is not so much to engage you in a protracted conversation, but saying the things that must be said out in the open. Your responding back is your decision.

    Concerning the timing of the catching away;

    I will make this part of the post brief. The post from Mark Kay Mason above was basically right, considering she didn’t elaborate on it. Since Yahshua fulfilled, at His first coming, each of the Spring Feasts at the exact day and hour they had been rehearsed for hundreds of years, does it not make sense that He will fulfill the Fall Feasts in the same manner? To the exact day and hour as they have been rehearsed for 1000’s of years. Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets Tishrei 1) will be the time of the catching away at the end of the Time of Jacob’s trouble. This is a two day feast. Ten days later Yahshua will set foot on the Mount of Olives on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement Tishrei 10). Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles Tishrei 15th). My question to you is, did Yah set the Fall Feasts up to just ignore them, or did man somehow thwart His plans? I am sure you have to know these things. Do you just ignore them or think they are not relevant now because in your thinking, along with most Western Christians, that the Torah (where the feast are given) has somehow passed away? Stringing a bunch of verses together out of the New Testament that makes sense in your mind does not negate or nullify what Yah has put in place. Every time the word scripture is used in the New or Old Testament, it is referring to the scripture of the Old Testament. There is an obvious lack of teaching from the Tanach. Both Testaments must agree or we are wasting our time in everything we are doing here. I have heard the comment before that “the New Testament isn’t new, it is just true.” The Old Testament is the foundation with the New Tesatament being built upon it. If you don’t, at least in part, have a basic understanding of what is termed the Old Testament, you will never understand the New Tesatament. There is basically nothing in the New that is not alluded to or mentioned in some form or other in the Old. Anyway, now to your comments from the previous post.

    These are your two comments:
    Your Comment-However I will respond to what you say “just this one time”, in not wishing to change the subject at hand. Though I agree with you in your premise that there are only two seeds, and that we are indeed grafted into the faith, (due to the fact that Israel denied the Messiah Himself), I believe that in Genesis 3:15, that God was referring more to Yeshua as in being the seed that would bruise the head of the serpent.

    Genisis 3:15 was used to show the two opposing seeds that would be warring against each other for the six day duration of this earth. The bruising of the heel and the head were really not a part of the topic, but I will respond to what you have said and you will find that both answers are right.

    Luke 8:11
    King James Version (KJV)
    11Now the parable is this: The seed is the Word of God.

    John 1

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Yahshua and the Word are one and has always been. A person who is of the seed of the serpent is anti-Messiah. A person who is of the seed of the woman is of the Messiah. This battle between the two is a battle of words that forms ones beliefs either for or against the Mashicah. If we believe the word of Yah is true and receive it and act on it, then are we of the seed of the woman. Refusing the word of Yah automatically puts us in the camp of the serpent. We have overcome the serpent by the blood of the Lamb, but He is still here deceiving and destroying the vast majority of even believer’s. But at least his days are numbered.

    Your Comment-And it is my belief and understanding, that what the Lord was referring to in Malachi 4 above that you quoted, was referring to the end of days scenario, and that in regarding the Law, (with God not as of yet revealing Yeshua (Himself) to the world) that He was left with no other option than to utilize the only Law that existed at that particular time, which were indeed the Ten Commandments of the Torah. These were given at the very first Shavuot, (Pentecost) and were replaced within the New and better Covenant on Shavuot years later and 50 days after Yeshua’s death on the cross, by the Holy Spirit.

    As far as your comment above, it totally makes no sense. You wrote “He was left with no other option”. That kind of a statement can be made of man; it can be made of man sinning and God acting according to His word; But to say that Yah initiated this conversation, but somehow painted Hisself into a corner and was forced to say something He really didn’t mean. Don’t you think you are kind of over reaching here just a little? If that makes sense to you, then go with it.

    Luke 1:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

    This is the same verse that is in Malachi 4:6 with a few changes. “Turning the hearts of the disobedient to the wisdom of the just”, is saying, “and turning the hearts of the (disobedient) children to the (wisdom) of the just. We are the children (disobedient) and the Patriarchs are the Just (Wise). Elijah will come again to accomplish this. He came in the First coming and will come again in the Second coming of Mashiach. Elijah will come to make straight the way of Yahshua by restoring the things of Yisrael that have been lost or forgotten. All of this has to do with turning disobedience into obedience to the things of Yah. This prophesy is for now and for all that are believer’s in Mashiach.

    In verse 4:1 of Malaki the Mashiach is actually mentioned twice, as the root and also as the branch. Those of Yisrael should know this.

    Malachi 4

    1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Isaiah 11:10
    King James Version (KJV)
    10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Jeremiah 23:5
    King James Version (KJV)
    5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    Malachi 3:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

    Notice in Malachi 3:18, Yah makes a distinction between those who are righteous and those who are wicked, based on whether they serve Him or not. The punishment of the wicked, those who do not serve Him is given in Malachi 4:1: the absence of the Mashiach.

    Malachi 4:1
    …….saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Kind of dovetails into a verse you quoted:

     22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matthew 7:20-27
     .
     Your Comment-The word lawlessness in verse 23, is not referring to that of the Torah, but rather to that of the “quenching” of the “Spirit of truth”

    Your can slice this anyway you want to make it acceptable, but Yahshua is speaking here of nothing less than disobedience to His word, with the same penalty that was given in Malachi 4:1. This is nothing less than man doing what he sees as right while disregarding the things of Yah. The things listed in the verses above can all be found in the Torah in one form or another. Yahshua was not saying something new, He was teaching something that was foundational from the beginning, that had been to a large degree, forgotten. Yahshua did not say it was wrong to do those things he did. The problem was he neglected the necessary things commanded by Yah.

    I heard the comment on this post, that while the timing of the catching away is interesting to talk about, being prepared and ready is much more important. I agree with that 100%

    • Al,

      I agree fully that Yeshua will return in the clouds for his chosen bride on Rosh Hashanah, Feast of Trumpets, Yom Teru’ah.
      I have never denied that in any of the “stuff” that I have written above.
      However, I suggest that something in scripture has perhaps eluded you, which I believe has led to your incorrect assumption in regards to the timing of this event.
      I ask you, “Who initially was it that this mystery was revealed to?”

      If you answered with “Paul” then that would be correct, for it was revealed to him when he was caught up to heaven. Therefore, all mentions of end time scenarios prior to Paul, would only be referring to Yeshua’s second coming itself, and not to that of the timing of the rapture of the bride.
      This is the confusion in which both Don and myself have tried to clear up in our “stuff” above.

      In respects to my lack of comprehension that you state I have above, regarding that of the Old Testament.

      The climax of the revelation that was given at Sinai, was the commandment to construct the Mishkan, (or “Tabernacle”.) This relates directly to the redemption secured by the blood of the lamb in Egypt which led directly to the revelation of laws of the altar given at Sinai. Almost 50% of the Book of Exodus is focused of the Mishkan, and the Book concludes with the Shekhinah Glory of God, being revealed at Sinai and filling the Holy of Holies. (Exodus 40:34,35.)

      The Book of Leviticus then links the previous paragraph of the Book of Exodus, with the religious practices that were to be conducted within the Mishkan itself, and therefore it focuses upon the various forms of offerings and sacrifices.(ie; zevachim) that were integral to being able to worship God. As this was the climax of God’s revelation at Sinai, the Mishkan became the place of revelation, and focal point of corporate worship.
      (Exodus 25:22. 30:36.)

      Prophetically speaking, the Mishkan was a foreshadowing, and represented the redemptive plan of God, that culminated in the revelation of Yeshua the Messiah as being the appointed Lamb of God. (ie; seh ha-Elohim.)
      Therefore the Book of Leviticus is central to the Torah, and it provides the basis from which we can then understand, the multifaceted meaning in respects to the sacrifice of Yeshua for our reconciliation with God.
      All of the great doctrines of the New Testament, regarding Atonement, propitiation of sin, and the meaning of the cross of the Messiah, are all grounded in the sacrificial system that is revealed in the Mishkan.

      “Sacrifice” in English, is more closely associated with an act of “self deprivation”, to give up something of value, for something of a perceived greater value. However in the Torah, the concept of sacrifice has more to do with making an offering to God as the means to be able to draw closer to Him. These sacrifices were intended to express gratitude and joy, while at the same time, remove the obstacles that were caused by mans defilement, and sin. In actuality, the most common Hebrew word that is utilized to describe sacrifice is “korban”, which comes from the root “karov”, meaning to “come close”, or to “draw near.” In the Mishkan, “korbanot” consisted of the various ritualized acts that were used for the worshipper to draw near to God.

      “What is my point with all of the above?”

      Well first, it is to express that the whole point of the Torah was, “That to obey, is better than having to sacrifice.”
      Secondly, since the Laws were impossible for man to execute with perfection, that required for God to provide that perfection in our stead, in the form of the Messiah. The Torah is simply a foreshadowing of the better New Covenant that Yeshua in His grace performed on our behalf.
      To continue to follow the Torah, is in essence to deny Yeshua’s sacrifice! And He by the shedding of His blood, is the only way now to draw near to God the Father.

      The sacrifice of Yeshua as the Kohen Gadol, (High Priest) of the “new and better” covenant was a gift to us from God, for those who place their trust in His Son. The Cross literally represents the “kapporet”, (mercy seat) of the New Covenant. For it was on that Cross that He shed His blood for our everlasting reconciliation to God.
      It is only because of the Korban of Yeshua, that we can all draw near to God. As well, when the sacrifice was complete and Yeshua did die, the veil of the Temple, the “parochet” that separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place, was rent asunder, thereby granting access to the “Throne of Grace.” Because of the High Priestly work of Yeshua, neither Levitical, or any other mediators for that matter are necessary, and all that now trust in Yeshua, are called “spiritual kohanim.” Followers of Yeshua have an altar of grace, where those who attempt to follow that of the older system, are unable to partake in.

      We agree to disagree Al.
      This is my last response.

      Be Blessed

    • Hello Ashupert2, Marianne, Alienated and all,

      I hope everyone is having a God-filled day. Regarding the law vs grace, I read your post and there are an amazing amount of assumptions on your part. But, I am not going to respond to those, but merely say that, you either believe that Paul was an apostle appointed by God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore, everything that Paul wrote came directly from the Lord or you must view him has a false apostle. That being said, here is what Paul had to say about the law vs grace:

      Acts 13:38-39
      Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.

      Acts 15:5-11
      Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith, Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

      Romans 3:19-24
      Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

      Romans 3:27-28
      Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

      Romans 4:4-5
      Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

      Romans 4:13-15
      It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

      Romans 7:1-6
      Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

      Romans 9:30-32
      What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith, but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

      Romans 10:4
      Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

      Romans 14:5-6
      One man considers one day more sacred than another; and another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

      Galatians 2:15-16
      We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

      Galatians 2:19-21
      For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.

      Galatians 3:1-4
      You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit , are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

      Galatians 3:10
      All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

      Galatians 3:13-14
      Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

      Galatians 3:15-19
      Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to his seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
      What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

      Galatians 3:23-25
      Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

      Galatians 5:1-4
      It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

      Ephesians 2:14-15
      For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

      Colossians 2:13-17
      When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Food law, Feasts and holy days)

      Hebrews 7:18-19
      The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

      Hebrews 8:13
      By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

      IICorinthians 3:6
      He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

      ==============================================================

      I pray that as you read all of the above, that God would open all of your eyes to the fact that the law has been made obsolete by the finished work of Jesus Christ and we no longer follow the written code of the law of Moses, neither food laws, nor holy days, nor feasts, nor are we saved by any works. We follow Christ and if we are following him and being led by the Holy Spirit, we are no longer under the law of Moses. If we are following after Jesus, we will fulfill the things of the law and when we sin, we have a High Priest sitting at the right hand of the God the Father speaking on our behalf, the one who took on flesh, but was without sin, a perfect sacrifice speaking on our behalf. The law the kills!

      The covenent of salvation by grace through faith was introduced 430 years before the law was put into place and because of transgressions until that seed of Abraham would come. As the Scripture states, the law was our schoolmaster pointing to Christ until he would come into the world. Now that he has come, we no longer need that tudor, the law. The law of Moses has been nailed to the cross as completed by the Lord himself. If you continue to trust in the law as being necessary for salvation, you will not be justified (made righteous) in God’s sight and that because you are not trusting in the finished work of Yeshua, Iesous, Jesus. If you stand before him and claim any of the works of the law for your salvation, you will be one of those to whom he says, “Depart from me you evil doers!” and the reason why he is saying this to them is becasue they will have trusted in their own efforts, didn’t we prochecy in you name and in your name drive out demons, and didn’t we do many miracles in your name?”

      Jesus didn’t come here to die for us so that he could perpetuate the law, he came to set us free from the curse of the law, because no one could be saved by observing the law. Does that mean that the law was sin? No way! The law is perfect and righteous, but we are not able to keep it and as soon as you break it at any point, you have broken the entire law and are guilty. I say the the same thing to you that Paul did to the Galatians, “How is it that you are returning back to those weak and miserable principles?”

      “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from your selves, it is the gift of God– NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.”

      That means that no one can take credit for salvation by performing any type of works, because Jesus did it already. Should we do good works? Most definitely! In fact, it should be a natural response of the Spirit who dwells in us. Are we saved by those works? No we are not! We do good works to glorify God the Father through Jesus Christ and by doing so we also build up our treasures in heaven.

      I tell you, if you trust in the law of Moses for your salvation, you will not be justified before the Lord.

  43. Hi all,

    I believe that most if not all, of what I felt led to post regarding this topic has been fulfilled. For those that consider what has been said, and take it deep and close within their heart, for that I am thankful. For those who chose not to, well then that is their decision to make.
    Nonetheless, I wish for the Lord our God to shine His blessed face upon everyone here, and in leaving, wish you all peace and
    the love of Yeshua in your hearts.

    Rejoice in the Lord, and be blessed.

  44. Just one last thing before I go.

    “14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:14,15 NKJV.

    The fulfilling result of God’s word……..

    “13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.” Colossians 2:13-15. NKJV.

    Many find the following scripture of Matthew 7:21-23, to be one of the most fearful things that Yeshua ever voices. Yet He himself supplies the answers to their questions within the text itself. Notice the brackets.

    “21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have [we] not [prophesied] in Your name, [cast out demons] in Your name, and done many [wonders] in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” NKJV.

    Notice that not one of the respondents simply said, ” I trusted and had faith in only You Lord”. Not one said, “You alone Lord are my hope and my life.” “It is only through Your grace and glory Lord.”

    Instead they quoted examples of what “they” had done, rather than what “He Has Done”!

    We do not have the power to Justify ourselves. We are Justified solely through the workings of God, and through the belief and trust that we have in Yeshua and His death for us on the cross. To depart from that trust by attempting to earn our salvation ourselves, is denying the truth of the Gospel. Denying Christ Himself as being insufficient.
    Works in our effort to do this, be it attending a certain church on some specific day, or believing that the law of the Torah is still in effect, is a manner of this being demonstrated. Wherever I suggested “repentance” above, it was meant as, to surrender to His truth, and trust in it and it alone. Surrender to the Sprit and allow for God to mold the lump.
    Have your trust and faith in one thing and one thing only;
    that Yeshua is King. Yeshua is Lord. Yeshua is life.
    He is the way and the truth and the life, and be grateful for Him alone.

    Shalom,
    Be Blessed

    • Alienated,

      I have honestly not enjoyed the direction all of this has taken. I assume a large part of the responsibility for that. I have come across a number of people on this blog who are very articulate and extremely knowledgeable. I consider you one of them. But, those qualities do not equate necessarily to being right. I do understand that probably 99% of the people on, or at least viewing this site, are of the same persuasion as you, as far as the Torah is concerned. But being in a minority does not make me wrong, and you being in a vast majority does not make you right in this. It is about the seed, the word, and what the truth is, even after dealing with terrible translations, not understanding all the nuances of the Hebrew culture, and being handed down traditions that have predisposed us to error.

      I do believe there is a big disconnect in the Western Christian “Chruch”. We take small sound bytes and try to make doctrine out of them. There is no new doctrine. Only that which was given in the beginning. Yahshua became our salvation. We all understand that. That is not a point of contention. Never has been. You and most others believe that this is an either or situation, that Mashiach and Torah cannot exist together. Mashiach and Torah are ONE. HE is the Word. When John was writing about this he was speaking of the tanach, with the Torah being the centerpiece. You know that is true. The rest of scripture falls apart without it. Without Torah, the foundation of scripture, the rest will not stand. Yahshau himself said;

      Matthew 5:18
      For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

      Do you know when all will be fulfilled? As far as what has been written, that takes us through till at least the end of the 1000 year reign of Mashiach, due to the fact that the seed of the serpent will not be completely done away with until then. Those who are left of the Nations will still be present during the 1000 reign.

      The following scenario is the Judgment Seat of Mashiach. We will be judged concerning the things we have done, and or not done. You cannot serve Him and disregard His Commands. The Apostles did all of the works cited in verse 22 and were never castigated for it. In fact it was quite to the contrary. Following His commands put them in a place of empowerment through Ruach HaKodesh. There rewards were actually increased. Open your eyes people, because we have been taught wrong about some things will not be an excuse. Don’t believe what I say, but rather go to the extreme to learn if what you are or are not doing is what the Father wants of you. Everyone is responsible for working out their own salvation. Do it with the utmost care and diligence.

      Matthew 7:22
      Amplified Bible (AMP)

      22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? 23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

      24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [a]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.

      2 Corinthians 5:10
      Today’s New International Version (TNIV)

      10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive what is due them for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

      2 Corinthians 5:10
      King James Version (KJV)

      10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

      2 Corinthians 5:10
      New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for [a]his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

      2 Corinthians 5:10
      Amplified Bible (AMP)

      10For we must all appear and be revealed as we are before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive [his pay] according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil [considering [a]what his purpose and motive have been, and what he has [b]achieved, been busy with, and given himself and his attention to accomplishing].

      Please accept my apology for any way that I have offended you. The discussions are intense and highly personal. I truly wish for you only the best.

      Be Blessed in HaMashiach

      • Al,

        Of course your apology is accepted. I hold no animosity towards you in my heart at all.
        Though out of love, I do perhaps hold some concern for you.

        I have chosen to leave this wonderful site and to instead place my energies towards my studies, so I will not be responding to your post above, for we simply choose to disagree.
        I just wanted you to know that your apology was accepted, and that you didn’t perhaps chase me away in a huff. lol.

        Take Care Al.
        May God be with you.
        Shalom and Be Blessed.
        alienated

        posted by marianne for alienated who is having computer issues.

  45. To all who have posted here,
    there is a danger in discussions on the church of philadelphia, which comes from our sinfullness as a people. The danger is that we focus so much on our own actions, and merit in attaining the rewards of God (AKA self righteousness). EVERY apostate church claims that they are exclusively the church of philadelphia, which inevitably leads to a works based religion, because their focus shifts from the cross and grace of God to a comparison of works between the churches. WE humans are born in sin, and as Christians we continue to sin. It is only when we admit the wretchedness of our own situation and repent that we see the forgiveness and love of Christ. It is in understanding this that we can “love one another”. When we see that we are no different than any one else apart from the grace of God. Discussions on things like the elect, and the church in philadelphia inevitably lead us to self-righteousness.
    I say these things, not to belittle those who have studied these topics, only to remind all of us of our sinfulness, and how we pervert scripture to build ourselves up, when these scriptures were to glorify God and his grace.

    • hi dru

      True…

      Sometimes we focus on what we “deserve” rather than what we don’t deserve.

      Christ will be looking for faith, not privilege, when he returns.

    • The video which did not come up for some reason(?) was of R.W. Glenn talking about self-righteousness. It was from Todd Friel’s show you can look it up on you tube. If you search R.W. glenn, self-righteousness it should come up.
      BTW I am not “accusing” anyone of this, only warning that we are all prone to it, Myself included.
      God bless.

    • Hi “dru!”

      Well put! Does it not say in the Scriptures that the Lords’ Church is wherever two or more are gathered praising the Lord?

  46. All of this is really kind of crazy. You all know how I feel about the commandments (Torah). I have never backed up from it. I don’t care if it is unpopular or puts a bullseye on my back. I am 100% unshakeable in this, come what may. Let’s look at the scripture again that Alienated brought up;

    Matthew 7:22-27
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
    23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
    24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [a]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
    25And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
    26And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
    27And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell–and great and complete was the fall of it.

    I have one question. Is this really that hard to understand? I mean, what do you not understand? Yahshua pulled no punches here. He is not speaking in code or symbolism. He is talking to His disciples here. He is being as direct and to the point as He has ever spoken. I believe these are the first words He spoke that are written in the New Testament. I think it is telling, that He started off with this topic. This is about obedience, nothing more and nothing less. My wife and I follow the Kashrut (the dietary instructions). Am I supposed to feel conflicted, worrying about if I am being self-righteous? I don’t feel the least bit that way. For me, it is a way of honoring and obeying Him in the things he has commanded me to do. Believe it or not, I actually want to please Him. Let me explain something to you, when we go out to eat, we choose foods that are clean according to Yah. When I look at the menu and see bbq baby back ribs (used to be one of my biggest weaknesses) there is a little bobble in my will power. But out of the desire of pleasing my Father and knowing that he didn’t make this a suggestion, but rather a command, I go on down the menu and find something in line with what I am supposed to be eating. I would like to have the ribs, but I don’t. Does this save me? Not at all. Is it expected of me? YES. If we cannot obey Yah in the smaller personal things of life, what makes you think we will ever follow Him in the bigger more important things?

    We have been taught that there are no rules, no laws, no instructions. There is no need. We have been forgiven before we ever commit sin. You tell me, who is being self righteous here? The enemy has done such a good job in deceiving most of the Christian world about this, that if we do anything we are trusting in works. So the logic follows, that if we don’t do anything (even though He commanded us to) we don’t have to deal with the question or feeling of being self-righteous. We just trust that He will watch over us because we love Him so much. But what did Yahshua say, If you love me, keep my commandments. Two thousand years of traditions that have separated us from the Master’s instructions have put us in a pitiful state. We talk about all these deep theological topics and don’t even have a clue in how to live our day to day lives. The following is the last verse from the book of Malaki:

    Malachi 4:6
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6And he shall turn and reconcile the hearts of the [estranged] fathers to the [ungodly] children, and the hearts of the [rebellious] children to [the piety of] their fathers [a reconciliation produced by repentance of the ungodly], lest I come and smite the land with a curse and a ban of utter destruction.

    Notice the penalty handed out to the rebellious children for not heeding the message of Elijah, “Remember The Torah”. UTTER DESTRUCTION!!!!!

    A lot of people would say, but that is the God of the Old Testament. The God of the New Testament is a God of Love and forgiveness. There is only ONE God and it has always been that we will reap what we sow. It is in our hands to obey or not, not His. He has already given us His word and told us to study to show ourselves approved. One last scripture;
    Revelation 12:17
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    17So then the dragon was furious (enraged) at the woman, and he went away to wage war on the remainder of her descendants–[on those] who obey God’s commandments and who have the testimony of Jesus Christ [and adhere to it and [a]bear witness to Him].

    The Torah and Yahshua are one.
    We are to have both, Torah and Yahshua, not one or the other.

    • Hate to burst your bubble “ashupert2″, but “alienated” is one hundred percent correct…we ARE no longer under the Laws of Moses as they were abolished by Jesus Christ as He died for “our” Sins! Is your love for God governed by what you eat? How about by the means by which you interact with people? Are you a “pure-bred?” Meaning that you are only of one race…both your Mother and Father of the same race?

      If not, then according to the Laws of Moses, you are already a sinner in the eyes of the Lord and you and your “off-spring” are ALL condemned! It also means, nobody else belongs on this planet except those already “chosen” according to the Laws of Moses! No, my dear friend, we ARE NO LONGER subject to the “biased” Laws of Moses!

      • dear Bob

        I agree that if we love the Lord, we will obey the commandments. It is no longer works or legalism….it is love that motivates.

        • Marianne
          I admire your brevity, you say in one sentence what takes me seven paragraphs.
          If I might add something, the old covenent we obeyed the law out of fear of judgement. A selfish motive. With the new covenent we are free from judgement because of the cross, therefore we obey the law in appreciation and love for God because he first loved us.

          From a philosophical standpoint, “virtue” that is coerced is not virtue. When we have the choice to be virtuous or to disobey, without any repurcussions, and choose to be virtuous, it is true virtue. My lesson in ethics 101.

    • I think ashupert2 has a point. As we grow in the Spirit, we try to do those things we believe G-d places in our heart to do. For ourselves, and for others.

      We all follow some of the laws of Moses like do not murder, or steal. So, we have in our hearts the word of G-d, and we fear G-d.

      It appears to me this is what ashupert2 is getting at. If I am wrong ashupert2 please correct me.

      We all fall short of the glory of G-d, so let us all try to love one another as Christ loved us. It will be hard.

    • Al
      As I have previously said in my arguements with James, I do not oppose you following the law, so long as your motive is for Love and devotion to God. It sounds to me like that is your reasoning and motivation. My point is that that does not make you any less a sinner or more a saint. I myself, just up and stopped drinking, though I enjoyed it when I did drink. It still gives me no right to look down on people who drink. I am still just as much a sinner as they are. As you know, when you break one law, you break the whole law. This in fact is the purpose of the law, to show us we are sinners. Repentence is so much more than turning from our sinfullness, It is an acceptence of our total depravity, despite our Good works. Just as a child finds it easy to accept their weekness and need to be dependent on our parents. Christians should also accept their weekness and learn to depend on God the father. This is the submission to his will, rather than us “trying” to “do” his will by relying on our own efforts. When we submit to his will, the Holy Spirit will “sanctify” us from the inside out.

      As the HS sanctifies us, we will begin to “bear fruit” without even realizing it, because it is not US that “creates” the fruit, but rather the Creator within us (AKA Holy Spirit). Note how this view takes US out of the equation totally. We cannot take credit for any of those works, therefore we can not elevate our position above others. It is only by Grace that God credits these “works” on our account, and rewards us according to them.

      As for my example of my drinking. I knew it was not encouraged in the Bible (drunkeness), but neither was drinking alcohol forbidden. I was not trying to quit, yet I was led to quit, because I realized that my actions were giving lisence to those around me for whom drinking was problematic. In other words, though my drinking was not problematic to me, it was not edifying those around me to whom alcohol is a problem. It was this concern for others that led me to not drink anymore, not some dictate that told me to stop (Law). This is the “more excellent way” which Paul describes in I corinthians 13 that I quoted above to alienated. This is why Jesus describes the Torah as loving the lord your God, and Loving your neighbor as yourself, and with all your heart. These are also the motivation for the “new commandments” that Jesus added for us to abide in, Namely: Believe on the Lord Jesus (faith in his divinity and the sufficiency of his sacrifice AKA his LOVE) and Love one another as he has loved us. (note how each one involves love.) That last one is a doozy, I know I fail miserably on that one, and do not have the strenghth to obey that one apart from the Holy Spirit!!

      You say you obey the Torah out of Love for God including the dietary laws. Ask yourself this question: Am I able to forgive and Love those that do not follow the dietary laws or the ten commandments as Christ forgives and loves You? If you do not see them as your equal in depravity, then your probably guilty of self-righteousness. I say this not to condemn you for living as you do, but rather to focus your gaze upon the cross, without which all our labors are in vain. I say this acknowledging that I am just as guilty as you are of this. I say this knowing that I am a sinner as much as you are.

      Al, as a brother in Christ, Love is the More excellent way. Though I have faith to move mountains, and have not love, I am NOTHING. The same can be said of any “virtue” I may want to take credit for.

      You can turn this criticism around on us that do not live under the Torah as well. We can be equally as condemning of the “more Legalistic” amongst us, even saying that they are “not saved”. For those that have lived in sin as an unsaved person, for example an alcoholic, the Holy Spirit will lead them to a more “legalistic” lifestyle. This is part of their repentence. their turning from their sin and “submitting” to the will of God. In fact they get the same Days wages, as we who have been working in the field all day. For them, conquering their pride is living by the law, for those of us that were self exalted pharisees, conquerring our pride, means knocking us off our pedestal. Think of all the self proclaimed Giants of the church who have had their “hidden” sins exposed. Legalism only puts us(me) back on that pedestal. I do not want to go there again. Christianity is not about the Law, but rather about the relationship with God. When our relationship with God is right, we will fulfill the law. For now, we are stuck here having to deal with our fallen flesh, and the passions thereof. some of those passions lead to the sins of the flesh (the negative ones) while others lead us to self righteousness (the ones that make us look good though we are not). It is only through God’s grace that we can overcome the flesh.

      By saying that Christianity is not about the law, I am not abolishing it, thereby giving myself lisence to sin. On the contrary, that law is the Goal of the race I run, only to do so with a sanctified soul and a pure heart. So that the Law is no longer a stumbling block, but rather a cornerstone within me!

    • Hi Al,

      Question stated above regarding Matthew 7:22-27; “I have one question. Is this really that hard to understand?”

      Answer to question; “Apparently.” (Sorry Al I couldn’t help myself. lol)

      Seriously though, lets please try to look at this together because it is fundamental to our faith.
      Lets even utilize the Amplified Version of the Bible that you provided above.

      Matthew 7:22-27
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

      (These people crying out are expressing to Yeshua what it is that they did, rather than what He has already done!)

      23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

      (What are the commands that Yeshua issued that they have disregarded that you have placed in brackets? Would they not be the following? 34 “A [new] command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35. And, “12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.” John 15:12. These then are Yeshua’s “new” Commandments.)

      24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [a]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.

      ( Obeying that Commandment then, a sensible prudent etc. man is a man who places his faith, or built his house totally upon the “rock”. The question then becomes, “Who is the rock?” “4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ.” So this appears to answer that last question.)

      25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

      (So that man, having placed his faith in Yeshua alone and nothing else, his house stood fast, and did not fall.)

      26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
      27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell–and great and complete was the fall of it.

      (The last two verses would then suggest, that the “stupid foolish man” chose instead of just having faith in Yeshua alone, chose to add something to it, and saw his house totally fall apart. As does Romans 9:30-33, if one understands them in there correct context. “30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in “him” will never be put to shame.” (which of course would be referencing Isaiah 8:12-15. Which I suggest that you read as well.)

      The “stumbling stone” obviously is referring to the “Law” and the “him” who those that will never be put to shame in trusting is obviously Yeshua.)

      There is so much that I could write about this subject to you that the length of this would be simply silly. Since we both share in a love for the Messianic point of view, please go to this link that I have provided and read what a dear friend of mine has to say regarding Matthew 5:17-20, which you also like to utilize to prove your point of view.

      http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp_a=sp10030011&sp_f=iso-8859-1&sp_q=law+matthew+5%3A17-20&sp_p=all&FormsButton3=Search

      Be Blessed Al

      • I am just hoping that in this link above something will “click” and the next time that you are out with your wife, you can order that big rack of baby back ribs!
        Yum. lol.

        Be Blessed

        • Hi Al,

          Please, Please, spend some time reading the information in the above link. I so wish for you to experience freedom in Yeshua. I want you to eat those ribs my brother, and enjoy every lip smacking bit of them.

          I understand your heart and why it is that you follow the Law, but we have to take Yeshua’s teachings in the context of the covenant that He was under at the time He said them. Look at Galatians 4:4,5.

          “4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

          At the time that Yeshua said both Matthew 5:17-20 and Matthew 7:22-27 ( two of the passages that you utilize to substantiate your position, and have you following the Law in your desire to serve the Lord), were said during the Old Covenant. He had no choice, (no other option) but to say these things because the New Covenant would only take place upon His death. To prove this, lets look at Hebrews 9:15-17.

          “15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.”

          Therefore since He was born under the Law, was alive during the Law, He had no other option but to follow the Law. And so did the people. However, it was after His death, (which was the event that effected change), the New Covenant became into being, and the Law was replaced by Him and Him alone.

          This is why I use this argument when you bring up Malachi as well. God through Malachi had no other option to utilize yet. Yeshua His Son had not been born, had not lived the perfect sinless life, and neither had He died for any New Covenant to take effect.
          This is one of the most amazing things about grace that we thank Yeshua for, and is fundamental to our faith.
          He was the only living man under the Law, that never once had to offer a sin offering for Himself to God.
          He fulfilled the law, and then took the place of it, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (and be able to eat ribs. lol)

          Please Al, spend some time in the writings within that link. John is a wonderful loving Christian and I pray that he, with what he says, can help open your eyes regarding this.

          Be Blessed Al. Be Free in Yeshua.

          • Dear Al,

            There hasn’t been any response about any of this from you yet?
            I do hope that you are spending some time reading the information on that link that I posted for you, and I have prayed that the Spirit draw you to the truth over this.

            Al, Context within scripture is everything. Not in just “what” is being said, or “where and when” it is being said, but as to what Covenant is in effect as well. Taking into account all of this is the determining factor as to whether we actually will understand what we read. When taking these factors into consideration at all times, we are less likely to misconstrue the context.

            It has taken years for me myself to understand this. I have had to let go of much of what I believed that I understood in the past to be true. Preconceived errors that had become deeply rooted within my psyche that I thought was the truth of the word. Some won’t even contemplate in doing this. It rocks their world and shakes their faith too much to even consider that what they believe could possibly be wrong. So they carry on within their error, rather than seeking the real truth.
            But isn’t that ego? Making the choice to be right, rather than truly seeking God’s truth?

            Here is a rule of thumb that I have adopted, (which I believe that the Spirit has revealed to me), that everyone should utilize to receive better understanding while they study scripture.
            I have found that to receive better understanding as to what is relevant as opposed to what has changed due to Yeshua’s death and the New Covenant being established, is to simply see what the apostles say about something. They had the anointing of the Holy Spirit of truth and were charged with spreading the word.
            If Yeshua say’s something in the Gospels, and the apostles say something that appears to be contrary, then follow what the apostles say, because the topic is more than likely something that has now been changed due to the New Covenant taking effect. This simple act helps us separate the Old form the New.

            How many people do you personally know, that are ripping their eye’s out, or cutting off their limbs to ensure that they will be enter into heaven? This was Yeshua placing more burden of the Law onto the people, so when the time came that a New and better Covenant came into effect, they would run to it with open hearts to accept Him and His freedom from the Law.
            “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30.

            Praying for you Al.
            Be Blessed

            • amen!

            • Hello Al,

              No comment from you whatsoever at all yet. I so want you to understand this.

              Lets just look at a couple of things here. If the Law was so important to Yeshua, how come the only individuals that He ever chastised in scripture were the Pharisees, Sadducess, and Scribes?

              I know that you believe that Yeshua is your High Priest, and that through Him are are counted as being righteous, right? Well in Hebrews 7: says,”For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.”

              And in regarding “righteousness”, 1 Timothy 1:8-11 says,” 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.”

              Surely your aren’t suggesting that you are one of the ones in the long list mentioned?
              ( I certainly don’t think that you are. I think that you are trying to demonstrate your devotion in doing this, when you just don’t realize that Yeshua isn’t asking you to do that. Please read the book of Galatians because they chose to leave the restful yoke of Yeshua, and tried to substitute works too.)

              The Law was created by God to expose man’s sin. To make him aware how prevalent it was. No one was ever “justified” and made “righteous” by the Law to God.
              To put it another way Al, the Law was like a mirror. Man could look in the mirror and because of it they could see how dirty they were. But when they saw how dirty they were, they couldn’t pull the mirror off the wall and wash themselves clean with it. All they were left with was to make temporary offerings all the time to receive any sense of relief. On the other hand, we now have the Grace of Yeshua to rest in. He has washed us clean better than anything in the whole Law ever could.

              In closing, let me please say this as well to place something in its proper perspective. You feel it necessary to follow a dietary law to remain faithful. Yet the Bible itself was predominately written by murder’s.
              Moses wrote much of the Old Testament, and he killed an Egyptian. David wrote most of the Psalms and he set up Uriah to get killed in the front lines of battle. Paul wrote numerous epistles and he persecuted Christians all over the place, and was there during the stoning of Stephen.
              And you are concerned about enjoying a plate of ribs?
              Trying to get you to understand this from a heart of love Al.
              Be Blessed

        • Christians, except a few trustworthy ones, depend upon their own insight and do their own thing. They do NOT seek counsel with God in making suggestions to others or in making decisions, but fire from the hip. Those using own insight instead of really stepping aside to wait on His command, may not board Rapture Flight 777. It is ONLY for those truly seeking His will in all they do.

          • Pieter
            I think you will find that it is not our own understanding that is guiding us here, but rather the Holy Spirit. I see how you felt confronted by what Bob said, though I am sure (not to put words in his mouth) that he did not mean it to confrontational. As he said, he “fires from the hip” so as to elicit a response. Instead of seeing it as an attack and getting defensive, we invite you to respond to those verses, and give us your interpretations so that we can “reason together” about our faith.

            As such, I would like to ask you a question. Can you explain what you mean by “stepping aside to wait on his command” means to you?
            You may find that this discussion will be beneficial and edifying.

            • Thanks “dru”!!! For I did NOT intend to be confrontational as that simply leads everyone in the wrong direction and away from Christ!

              There exists a “true” fellowship amongst the members here driven only by the Holy Spirit!!!

              At least…that’s what I “feel!”
              :)

              • Bob
                I see that totally! If you look at both alienated and my responses above to Al, we used the same verses and similar arguements to him. We both posted nearly simultaneously, and I had not read his response nor had he read mine. Coincidence? or Holy Spirit?

                In the past year and half, I have had this occur numerous times. For example I would be doing a study in one part of the bible, and then I would go to church, and the Pastor of the church is doing a sermon on that very scripture, and it answers my questions, or even corrects my understanding of that scripture or at times reinforces my understanding. Obviously I had no knowledge of what his sermon was going to be about and since I am new to the church, he is not aware of my situation. Coincidence? Or Holy Spirit?

                Again, Above I posted a video by RW Glenn about self righteousness. I happened to be flipping through the channels, and saw that episode of “wretched” and knew immediately that the HS led me to watch what he had to say when I read Al’s post above it. Coincidence?

                I say this not to boast, but rather to give God the glory. Many of the things I have written on this site I have not even reasoned out beforehand, they just “come through” me. This is why at times I am not as analytical in my arguements as say alienated, who has probably made these arguements before.

                I truly believe that the Holy Spirit is preparing Us for the end times. To that time when we will be delivered before kings and courts, be tried. At which time the Holy Spirit will be speaking through us to reach the world with the Gospel via testimony.
                To God be the Glory!!

                • WOW! “dru”…and I thought I was the ONLY one that has been experiencing these things! You have NO idea how truly “heart-warming” it is to hear this from someone I really do not know “except” through the Holy Spirit!!!

                  I gotta run and take care of “errands”…ttyl

                  bob

            • WOW “dru”, guess we’re not the only ones that “do NOT need God in making their decisions or in advising others…”

              forgive me…”My BAD!” :)

              bob lol

    • Hi Al,

      Question stated above regarding Matthew 7:22-27; “I have one question. Is this really that hard to understand?”

      Answer to question; “Apparently.” (Sorry Al. just kidding, I couldn’t help myself. lol)

      Seriously though, lets please try to look at this together because it is fundamental to our faith.
      Lets even utilize the Amplified Version of the Bible that you provided above.

      Matthew 7:22-27
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

      (These people crying out are expressing to Yeshua what it is that they did, rather than what He has already done!)

      23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

      (What are the commands that Yeshua issued that they have disregarded that you have placed in brackets? Would they not be the following? 34 “A [new] command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35. And, “12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.” John 15:12. These then are Yeshua’s “new” Commandments.)

      24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [a]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.

      ( Obeying that Commandment then, a sensible prudent etc. man is a man who places his faith, or built his house totally upon the “rock”. The question then becomes, “Who is the rock?” “4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ.” So this appears to answer that last question.)

      25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

      (So that man, having placed his faith in Yeshua alone and nothing else, his house stood fast, and did not fall.)

      26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
      27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell–and great and complete was the fall of it.

      (The last two verses would then suggest, that the “stupid foolish man” chose instead of just having faith in Yeshua alone, chose to add something to it, and saw his house totally fall apart. As does Romans 9:30-33, if one understands them in there correct context. “30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in “him” will never be put to shame.” (which of course would be referencing Isaiah 8:12-15. Which I suggest that you read as well.)

      The “stumbling stone” obviously is referring to the “Law” and the “him” who those that will never be put to shame in trusting is obviously Yeshua.)

      There is so much that I could write about this subject to you that the length of this would be simply silly. Since we both share in a love for the Messianic point of view, please go to this link that I have provided and read what a dear friend of mine has to say regarding Matthew 5:17-20, which you also like to utilize to prove your point of view.

      http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp_a=sp10030011&sp_f=iso-8859-1&sp_q=law+matthew+5%3A17-20&sp_p=all&FormsButton3=Search

      Be Blessed Al

    • Hi Al,

      I do hope that you cliked the “notify me of new posts via email” section.

      I had written you a long detailed response out of love, regarding your above post, and had included a link requesting you to read some of its commentary.
      But in having this change with wordpress, it sent my post to the spam folder.
      So Marianne ended up having to fish it out and post it. When she did, somehow it duplicated itself, so I asked her to delete one, and now they are both gone?

      So at the bottom of the page now, there are some response’s to your above post.
      Please try to find them.

      Thanks

  47. Hi ALL!

    I just started a course through an “online” school to further my studies of Architecture and therefore no longer have time to comment as much as I’d like. I DO read every last word everyone has to say however. And will continue to do so!

    It is very “heart-warming” to see everyone has the same view of Jesus and Scripture and is in complete agreement! I believe “ashupert”, by God’s WILL, through Jesus Christ, shall eventually share what we already know. It is clear, his heart is in the right place!

    To me, this IS what God sent Jesus to us for, to bring us into harmony with one another!

    “God Bless…All of YOU, in Jesus Name, I Pray…Amen!”

    sincerely, bob wise

  48. Dru

    Great job of expressing where we should be with God and all believers. Then we
    are not as the accuser who stands around the thrown all day long but are the Children of God full of Love and with what can the enemy attack.

    This was one of the hardest things for me to get. I still have to watch it. God doesn’t want us to be pious or to put stones around one anothers necks. Some who come to Christ take off the world at different times then others.

    Somethings that are sin for one are not sin for another. To me that is no different than I have an alergy to some thing that doesn’t affect you at all. Some can do things and it not be an issue but to the next it becomes an issue. As you said you could have a drink and not get drunk but another persons body might have a chemical reaction to the alcohol and get drunk. You saw that some you were around this was an issue and the word tells us not to be a stumbling or offense to those who can’t keep control.

    Paul said I Corinthians 6:12″Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything.

    To me the master part is to ensure you are in control of yourself at all times. The body and mind are in a place that doesn’t trouble the Holy Spirit.

    Hope all is going well for you Dru, it was nice to see your name.

    Be blessed

  49. Hi “alienated” and everyone else!

    Just came across this post on another website, I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I’m going to “throw-it-out-there” for curiosities sake…is that Okay?

    (2) the great tribulation mentioned in verses 21 and 22. Once again we go to history and discover that it is the truth. There was a great period of persecution. The Bible says it would be the worst ever known and if it were not shortened there would be no flesh saved. But for the sake of God’s people, His elect, it would be shortened. We go to history and discover that from 530 A.D. to 1798 A.D. there was such a period of persecution.

    comments or discussion???

    • Bob
      Let me guess, you found an SDA website?

      • ha! ha! ha! naw! It’s like I said, I do not agree with this, I was mostly curious as to where this type of “thinking” is coming from. Thank You for the clarification! lol

        Sincerely :)
        bob wise

    • Hi Bob,

      I’ll ask you a couple of questions so that you can figure this out yourself okay?

      (1) When Yeshua spoke these words, He was answering a specific question that his disciples had just asked Him. The question is written in Matthew 24:3.
      So would this then be referring to our past history, or to a future event?

      (As well, as I have attempted to explain to everyone above, the word “elect” here can not possibly be referring to the church. It is instead referring to Israel.)
      But I hope that the answer you discover will satiate your curiosity regarding your post.

      And Hey, shouldn’t you be studying for your course? lol. :-)

      Take Care Bob.
      Be Blessed

      • lol Yeah…”alienated!” I just finished with this weeks assignments…but, still have a lot of practicing to do :)

        as for the “post”…see my response to “dru” :)

        Nonetheless…thanks for the concern!!! :)

        bob

    • hi Bob

      For those that are true saints, there has been tribulation for 2000 years. First, the Romans who threw them to the lions, then the Catholic church, then the Muslims. This with the Muslims is still going on today.

      • I agree, Marianne, especially the part about the Muslims! For centuries, the Roman Empire has been the dominant ruling force on this planet. Then, the rise of “communism”, which was a distraction to us from the proliferation of the Roman Empire. All along, the ultimate disease grew throughout the world as a “weed”, imitating a “religion” through belief in single God, they call, “ALLAH?” It matters not the name, as we all know him as, Satan!

    • Guday Bob and all,

      Hope all is well with you. You kind of answered your own question in what you presented. What I mean is this: Above you said,

      “The Bible says it would be the worst time ever known and if it were not shortened there would be no flesh saved.”

      Jesus echoed this from a prophecy in Isaiah 13:12 regarding the “Day of the Lord,” Which says,

      “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.”

      These verses would infer that after the plagues brought on as a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God, the population of the earth would be so decimated at the end of the age, that if it was allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left upon the face of the earth. Now, you suggested that from 530 A.D. to 1798 A.D. there was such a period of persecution, yet are there not 6.5 billion people currently on the earth? This then would not fulfill the prophecy. There fore, this time of great distress that the world has not yet seen, must take place in a relatively short period of time, which will leave the population of the earth greatly deminished at Christ’s return. If you will read the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments listed in Revelation, then you will begin to understand that time of great distress and how and why so many people are going to die. Just with the 4th seal and 6 trumpet alone 50% of the earth’s population is gone and that is not including the fatalities that will be caused by the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpets, as well as the fatalities caused by the bowl judgments and that because the percentages are just not listed.

      Anyway, I hope this sheds a little more light on the subject.

      Yours in Christ

      • Hi “dmcal!”

        I am in complete agreement with you…if you look at my response to “dru” (above) you will see the reason for my posting it in the first place. :)

  50. True saints, the real Philadelphians, had been persecuted bu the church for the past 2,000 years. The Romans and the Muslims are small fry. The enemy within is sinking the Ark. The real Philadelphians could be as many as one out of every hundred Christians, but more likely less than that.

    Tribulation is no new invention.

    • So true, so true! “Tribulation” is no new invention??? If only it were so! Excuse me, Pieter Louw, but this is no simple “tribulation” coming up! Oh wait…”My BAD!” You are so correct…Christians are simply going to be persecuted as always…right?

      As, “alienated” and others on this site, have suggested, go back and really “read” the Scriptures a little bit more. You will find something like this, “…having been delivered from A GREAT TRIBULATION…” and another passage something like this, “…there will be a cry and a gnashing of teeth…such as the world has never heard before…” (of course, this is all paraphrased). No, I do not put specific references, I just “shoot from the hip” as I attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I prefer instead to allow the Lord to direct You to the appropriate passages…that way, it is His Will that be done!

      “God Bless in Your Search for the Truth, In Jesus Name I Pray…Amen!”

      sincerely, bob wise

  51. Dru, I was not referring to this conversation but to a general lifestyle of “doing their own thing” and not in seeking guidance in all they are doing. Christianity generally does not consult God; it is but a small percentage who really are wired into His system…….. and THAT is my gripe with the apostate Christianity which is a loveless beast devoid of natural love and that will kill anyone deviating a few millimeters from the majority viewpoint.

    I am stating this: Christians seemingly do NOT need God in making their decisions or in advising others. The fact that you did not even recognize what I was talking about and clearly did not think of what I had said, is typical of the culture of “having own wisdom.”

    There is more to Matt 7:21-23 than meets the eye.

  52. Let me explain further: say, I have a situation such as being retrenched. Now I need a new job. (Typical scenario.) Usually, friends will advise this and suggest that WITHOUT seeking God’s counsel first. They will jump into action and may even start manipulating the situation, using their own insight and gut feel. Our Lord Jesus may have a different outcome in mind but He does not get asked for His opinion.

    That is typical of Christianity. And this is a sinful way as His objectives aren’t met.

    If you want to be raptured or enter His kingdom, be sure to do His will in ALL we do. This is too hard for most to understand. May He open hearts and eyes to see this for what it is…………..

  53. When my family and I were being persecuted by Christians, it were Muslims who had given us love. I live in between a Jewish and a Muslim neighbourhood. The Jews own the properties and have no morals or principles; they allow prostitutes, druglords, etc., as tenants and they also don’t maintain the properties but have no problem increasing rent. This had led to the infamous District 6 situation in Cape Town almost 50 years ago. Nothing has changed and they still are the same. The local Jews are racist discriminators against all and sundry but whine about a holocaust as if they were the only victims. We Afrikaners had a holocaust well before the Jews did but we aren’t extorting money from the former oppressors. It is the Muslim who will share food, or do something to comfort someone with a burden.

    Christianity doesn’t even feature here; they are “too busy” to keep prayer meetings, even. No, I am sorry, your views are distorted. I deal with actual case studies and not stereotype as you all do. But then, I am talking to Chrostians, the champion hypocrites…………

    • Pieter
      I asked you that question because I wanted to hear your reasoning for it. What you need to understand is their is a difference between “doing” God’s will and submitting to God and allowing him to do his will in us. The former leads to self-righteousness, while the latter brings all Glory to God, who is doing the “work” in us through the Holy Spirit.

      John 3:7-8

      I will pray for you and your fellow Christians in SA as they face the perecution. May the comforter which came to us at pentecost give you the peace and Joy the apostles had when persecuted.

    • Pieter, aka Umlungu I think.

      You still sound quite accusatory in you pattern of speech towards others.
      Is this fulfilling the commandment of Yeshua as in, “loving others as I have loved you”?

  54. To All

    Since a number of you responded, I will just send one response out to all. Sorry for the delay, but time constraints prevent me from always picking and choosing when I would be online. I do appreciate any concern that might be felt for my “situation”, but it is not really necessary. I am where I am supposed to be and doing what I am supposed to be doing. If I wanted to converse with those who naturally agree with me, I would go some place else. I fully understand that when I write things that are considered against mainline Christian dogma, that I am going to get pushback. This is not so much about changing minds, as it is about getting the discussion out in the open. I am honestly not offended by anything anyone has to say, even if it gets personal. I will say this, I understand basically where most of you are coming from, because I have been there. The difference is you most likely don’t really understand where I am coming from. As time goes on more and more comes out. I understand that most will never give any of this a second thought and just go on their way. But there are, or possibly with be, those who will understand what is being said. It is the dialogue, the words, and discussion that is needful.

    I think it was Don who said that if I believe the Torah is for now, then I must believe that Paul was a false prophet (I think that is close). Well, the truth is I do believe the Torah is for now, but you already know that. But, “NO”, I don’t believe Paul was or is a false prophet. Does it ever seem strange to you, that Paul is basically the only one of the writers in the New Testament, that supposedly says that the instructions (law) have been done away with, “nailed to the cross”? Do you ever think about that? I am sure that many of you would say that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and the Gentiles are not required to keep the instructions. First of all, as was discussed previously, if there are only two seeds, the seed of the serpent, and the seed of the woman (Yisrael), then we are of the seed of the woman, therefore we are of Yisrael. Not by replacement and not spiritually. We do not become ethnic Yisrael, but are as much a part of the Commonwealth of Yisrael as the homeborn. When we received the Word of Yah, we passed from being of the seed of the serpent, to being of the seed of the woman (Yisrael). If that offends anyone, you might want to dig a little bit to search these things out. Let’s just say that you have an understanding that we are of Yisrael, but the Torah is still not for us, even though all of the other writers of the New Testament (for the most part) say that Torah is for us. If Paul isn’t wrong and Peter, James, John, and so on aren’t wrong, then where is the disconnect? I would pose this question to you, Yah set forth a formula, if you will, for getting to the truth of a matter. That formula was, to let a matter be established in the mouth of two or more witnesses. Who is or are the other witness or witnesses to verify this matter being established? As far as I know, of those who wrote the teachings in the letters of the N.T., only Paul is credited with making this announcement that Toarah had passed away. Why, with something this important, would Yah do something contrary to His own word and not establish this in the mouth of two or more witnesses? He didn’t. The whole reason for the two or more witnesses’ is to ensure the truth prevails and is clear. Paul does agree with the other Apostles. Their doctrines were the same! We have just misunderstood what Paul was actually saying in all of this due to bad translations and the Gentile commentary that accompanied it. Find an Aramaic New Testament, translated by those who understand the nuances of the language and the Hebrew culture and you will read something that is in line with what the other Apostles were teaching. The difference being, that they were talking to two completely different groups of people with different levels of understanding. I am sure this won’t go over well, but that is okay. Like I said above, it is about the discussion, to encourage those who are hungry, to press in and dig for the truth that is not convenient, and not be content with being spoon fed the traditions that have been handed down to us. What ever a person believes is their business. All any one can do is put the scripture out there and hope that it is handled with diligence and a heart to know the truth.

    Alienated,

    We are still on Matthew 7. That is a good thing. We just need to make sure we are both talking about the same thing,

    Matthew 7:20-21
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    20Therefore, you will [a]fully know them by their fruits.
    21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

    Matthew 7:22-27
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
    23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
    24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [a]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
    25And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
    26And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
    27And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell–and great and complete was the fall of it
    .
    This whole scenario is not about the white throne judgment, This is the judgment seat of Mashiach. The whole purpose here is to judge our works as believer’s. The people mentioned in verse 22 are believer’s. What is happening here is the result of the verse that states that those who break the least of the commandments will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Exactly what that penalty is I am unsure of. But it sounds like something I never want to deal with. This is not dealing with our salvation. There will be a place for the least in Heaven. One thing I have noticed, every time we talk about works and doing things, most of you end up talking about trying to earn salvation. That is not what this is about. Let me give you an example:
    If a citizen of the United States is accused of breaking a law of the land, he will go before a judge to determine guilt. If found innocent, he will be set free to pursue his life. But if found guilty, he will be sentenced and punished for his crime. Let me ask you a question, was the one found guilty still a citizen of the United States. YES!!!! That was not the issue. The issue was obedience or disobedience to the law, that’s it. His citizenship was never in jeopardy. They are two separate things. This person would not have been standing before Yahshua, at this time, had he not been a believer (citizen).

    The only two variables between the sensible man (vs24) and the stupid man (vs 26) is either obedience or disobedience. These are words that require action not just thought. To try and say this is soley about the motivation of there heart and has nothing to do with the act of obeying or disobeying is ludicrous.

    As far as Yahshua saying , A New Commandment I give you; this is not a new commandment, at least not in the sense that it has never been proclaimed to Yisrael prior to this. It was proclaimed in the Torah.

    Leviticus 19:18
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    18You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

    Leviticus 19:34
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    34But the stranger who dwells with you shall be to you as one born among you; and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God

    Deuteronomy 10:18
    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    18He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger or temporary resident
    All Yahshua was saying here, was that he was going to instruct his disciples in something he hadn’t instructed them in before. The commandment wasn’t new, but the teaching was. You can tell by the verses above, this already existed in the Torah. Like we always say, there is a ton more that could be said, but just not enough time.
    Be Blessed in Mashiach

    • Dear Al,

      This is personal my brother.

      I am not sure if you actually found all of my posts to you above?
      The first one which is a duplicate of the one just above. (system glitch) starting on June 17th. 1:12 am, then at 4:06 am, 7:34am, June 18th. 4:52am, June 19th. 5:57am.
      This is indeed personal Al, and done out of brotherly love.
      I will post then all again, (other that the on that you obviously read) in the content of this post at the end for your convenience.

      First above you say, ” If Paul isn’t wrong and Peter, James, John, and so on aren’t wrong, then where is the disconnect?” Well what about James 2:8. “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbour as yourself” you do well:” which verifies what Paul says and establishes your two witnesses.

      You also say, “As far as Yahshua saying , A New Commandment I give you; this is not a new commandment, at least not in the sense that it has never been proclaimed to Yisrael prior to this. It was proclaimed in the Torah.”

      I agree that this commandment had been voiced before, yet never in the sense in the same way that Yeshua had demonstrated during His time spent on earth. The religious of that day shunned those that they believed to be less than themselves, choosing instead by their actions to exalt themselves. Yeshua instead surrounded Himself with these people, and voiced with this demonstration, ” Love others as I have loved you.”

      Below are some of my earlier post to you.

      I am just hoping that in this link above something will “click” and the next time that you are out with your wife, you can order that big rack of baby back ribs!
      Yum. lol.

      Be Blessed. June 17th. 4;06am.

      Hi Al,

      Please, Please, spend some time reading the information in the above link. I so wish for you to experience freedom in Yeshua. I want you to eat those ribs my brother, and enjoy every lip smacking bit of them.

      I understand your heart and why it is that you follow the Law, but we have to take Yeshua’s teachings in the context of the covenant that He was under at the time He said them. Look at Galatians 4:4,5.

      “4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

      At the time that Yeshua said both Matthew 5:17-20 and Matthew 7:22-27 ( two of the passages that you utilize to substantiate your position, and have you following the Law in your desire to serve the Lord), were said during the Old Covenant. He had no choice, (no other option) but to say these things because the New Covenant would only take place upon His death. To prove this, lets look at Hebrews 9:15-17.

      “15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.”

      Therefore since He was born under the Law, was alive during the Law, He had no other option but to follow the Law. And so did the people. However, it was after His death, (which was the event that effected change), the New Covenant became into being, and the Law was replaced by Him and Him alone.

      This is why I use this argument when you bring up Malachi as well. God through Malachi had no other option to utilize yet. Yeshua His Son had not been born, had not lived the perfect sinless life, and neither had He died for any New Covenant to take effect.
      This is one of the most amazing things about grace that we thank Yeshua for, and is fundamental to our faith.
      He was the only living man under the Law, that never once had to offer a sin offering for Himself to God.
      He fulfilled the law, and then took the place of it, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (and be able to eat ribs. lol)

      Please Al, spend some time in the writings within that link. John is a wonderful loving Christian and I pray that he, with what he says, can help open your eyes regarding this.

      Be Blessed Al. Be Free in Yeshua. June 17th. 7:34am.

      Dear Al,

      There hasn’t been any response about any of this from you yet?
      I do hope that you are spending some time reading the information on that link that I posted for you, and I have prayed that the Spirit draw you to the truth over this.

      Al, Context within scripture is everything. Not in just “what” is being said, or “where and when” it is being said, but as to what Covenant is in effect as well. Taking into account all of this is the determining factor as to whether we actually will understand what we read. When taking these factors into consideration at all times, we are less likely to misconstrue the context.

      It has taken years for me myself to understand this. I have had to let go of much of what I believed that I understood in the past to be true. Preconceived errors that had become deeply rooted within my psyche that I thought was the truth of the word. Some won’t even contemplate in doing this. It rocks their world and shakes their faith too much to even consider that what they believe could possibly be wrong. So they carry on within their error, rather than seeking the real truth.
      But isn’t that ego? Making the choice to be right, rather than truly seeking God’s truth?

      Here is a rule of thumb that I have adopted, (which I believe that the Spirit has revealed to me), that everyone should utilize to receive better understanding while they study scripture.
      I have found that to receive better understanding as to what is relevant as opposed to what has changed due to Yeshua’s death and the New Covenant being established, is to simply see what the apostles say about something. They had the anointing of the Holy Spirit of truth and were charged with spreading the word.
      If Yeshua say’s something in the Gospels, and the apostles say something that appears to be contrary, then follow what the apostles say, because the topic is more than likely something that has now been changed due to the New Covenant taking effect. This simple act helps us separate the Old form the New.

      How many people do you personally know, that are ripping their eye’s out, or cutting off their limbs to ensure that they will be enter into heaven? This was Yeshua placing more burden of the Law onto the people, so when the time came that a New and better Covenant came into effect, they would run to it with open hearts to accept Him and His freedom from the Law.
      “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30.

      Praying for you Al.
      Be Blessed June 18th. 4:52am.

      Hello Al,

      No comment from you whatsoever at all yet. I so want you to understand this.

      Lets just look at a couple of things here. If the Law was so important to Yeshua, how come the only individuals that He ever chastised in scripture were the Pharisees, Sadducess, and Scribes?

      I know that you believe that Yeshua is your High Priest, and that through Him are are counted as being righteous, right? Well in Hebrews 7: says,”For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.”

      And in regarding “righteousness”, 1 Timothy 1:8-11 says,” 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.”

      Surely your aren’t suggesting that you are one of the ones in the long list mentioned?
      ( I certainly don’t think that you are. I think that you are trying to demonstrate your devotion in doing this, when you just don’t realize that Yeshua isn’t asking you to do that. Please read the book of Galatians because they chose to leave the restful yoke of Yeshua, and tried to substitute works too.)

      The Law was created by God to expose man’s sin. To make him aware how prevalent it was. No one was ever “justified” and made “righteous” by the Law to God.
      To put it another way Al, the Law was like a mirror. Man could look in the mirror and because of it they could see how dirty they were. But when they saw how dirty they were, they couldn’t pull the mirror off the wall and wash themselves clean with it. All they were left with was to make temporary offerings all the time to receive any sense of relief. On the other hand, we now have the Grace of Yeshua to rest in. He has washed us clean better than anything in the whole Law ever could.

      In closing, let me please say this as well to place something in its proper perspective. You feel it necessary to follow a dietary law to remain faithful. Yet the Bible itself was predominately written by murder’s.
      Moses wrote much of the Old Testament, and he killed an Egyptian. David wrote most of the Psalms and he set up Uriah to get killed in the front lines of battle. Paul wrote numerous epistles and he persecuted Christians all over the place, and was there during the stoning of Stephen.
      And you are concerned about enjoying a plate of ribs?

      Trying to get you to understand this from a heart of love Al.

      Be Blessed June 19th. 5:57am

    • Hello Asupert2 and all,

      Hope all is well today with everyone. I just want to clairify one issue regarding what you wrote below:

      Asupert2 said:
      ““NO”, I don’t believe Paul was or is a false prophet. Does it ever seem strange to you, that Paul is basically the only one of the writers in the New Testament, that supposedly says that the instructions (law) have been done away with, “nailed to the cross”? Do you ever think about that?”

      First of all, I said that if you believe that salvation is gained by observing the law of Moses, then you can’t believe in what Paul has to say about being saved by grace through faith apart from observing the Law, since you can’t believe in both. And since there is no misunderstanding about what Paul is preaching in regards to the law being made obsolete through Christ being crucified, then according to you, Paul cannot be speaking on behalf of God.

      Furthermore, you are mistaken in regards to Paul being the only one who recognized that salvation could not be obtained by observing the law and in fact, no one was ever or could ever be saved by observing the law, for faith was always the way of salvation. The law was added because of trespasses until the one of whom the law was pointing to would come. Now, in regards to your claim that Paul was the only one who recognized this, please see the following:

      Acts 15:5-11
      “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses. The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith, Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

      So, in the verses above, we have Peter, the other apostles and the elders who are also in agreement that God excepted the Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit without regards to the law, but by purifying (sanctifying) their hearts through faith alone. Notice also what Peter says regarding the law of Moses, that it was a yoke that neither he nor their fathers were able to bear. Then he says, “No” in regards to the law and instead says, “We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Yet, here we are 1900 hundred years later and we are still having a problem with those who want to put themselves under the burden of the law, even though Jesus came to set us free from it. Paul says to the Galatians,

      “How is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

      My honest prayer for you is that, you would truly read the letters to the Galatians, Romans and Hebrews. In fact, reread all of the Scriptures that I posted regarding this subject, because the word of God makes it very clear that if anyone is trusting in the law of Moses or anything else in conjunction with the shed blood of Christ, you are alienated from him and that because you are not trusting soley on him for your salvation. Consider the following verse:

      “For it is by grace you have been saved, through fatih–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.”

      Grace is defined as unmeritted favor, which means that we didn’t do anything to earn it and don’t deserve it, but we’ve got. Notice also that it says regarding the gift of salvation is by grace through faith, “And this not from yourselves,” meaning that we had no part in providing salvation and can take no credit for it. When we put ourselves under the law, we are attempting to perform works in order to earn our way into the kingdom of God instead of excepting his free gift through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ.

      Salvation by faith alone was demonstrated through father Abraham, for the Scripture says, Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. The Scripture does not say that Abram believed God and then kept feasts, holy days, obstained from certain foods and kept the Sabbath days and because of all these God then credited him with righteousness. No! It was by faith and faith alone that Abraham was credited with righteousness. Now we who believe in his Son are the spiritual children of Abraham having that same faith. We are the ones who he was speaking of when God said, “I will make you a father of many nations.” Therefore, we who are having the same faith are his offspring.

      Those who are children of Abraham, who are trusting in God through faith alone, are saved through a promise and are children of the free woman representing sarah. But for those who are under the law, they are in slavery representing the covenent of Hagar and the Scripture says, “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” Therefore, those who are under the law are under slavery and belong to the covenent of the slave woman and the Scriture states, that they will not share in the inheritance with the children of the free woman. (Gal.4:21-31)

      I pray that you will take all of this into consideration, because I tell you the truth, according to Scripture, no one will be justified by observing the law of Moses, for the righteous will live by faith. Where we were unable to, Jesus came and fulfilled the righteous requiremnents of the law perfectly and then nailed the Law of Moses, with it commandments, regulations, its feasts, holy days, animal sacrifices, food laws and whatever other laws there may be, he nailed them to the cross as perfectly completed and fulfilled. Now he is looking for faith apart from the law, but trusting in the law will kill you!

      Please, please read it.

      Yours in Christ

      • Good Post.

        But hey…. was that a shot there big guy, when you used the word alienated? lol.

    • Al
      I am sure you have heard all those arguements from Romans, so I will not get into them here. Instead, I will show you in the bible the three stages of spiritual growth. This is from I John 2:12-14. I will reorganize them as John quotes them out of order.

      Children-” your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake”
      “you know the father” At conversion we repent of our sins and believe. We know our sins are forgiven, and we believe in the Gospel. They are prone to false Doctrine, as they have not overcome the evil one as young men have.

      Young men- “You have overcome the evil one” ” you are strong and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.”They have learned proper doctrine, and can resist the deceptions of the world and the devil.

      Fathers- “you know him who is from the beginning” spoken twice. These are the Christians who understand the fullness of God and live in Communion with him. This is those who understand the whole bible narative. Note how it goes back to the beginning, Just as paul says we become a new creation Or Born again.

      The rest of first John deals with each group taking the next step in their spiritual Journey. For children it is moving past sin, conquerring the flesh, and the evil one (2:28-3:10). For young men the next step is to love one another as Christ loved us. To understanding that God is Love. This is the fullness of the Gospel, which was from the beginning. Love is what supercedes the law of Moses.

      And finally for the fathers, “God is love,and whoever abides in love abides in God. 17. by this is love PERFECTED with us” (4:16-17)

      To be continued…

  55. If people wrote more concise comments, it would be easier to get the point. :)

    • Oh, I didn’t realize it was that simple? (silly me.)
      Okay, within the New Covenant the Old law does not apply. Especially where it concerns the dietary law.
      Hey that was simple. lol.

      Actually Marianne, other than the first two paragraphs above, the rest of the post above consists of previously posted material that Al may not have read. I actually state that I wil do this for him for his convenience, in my first paragraph.

      Thanks though.

  56. Marianne
    Stop Boasting.!!LOL

    AL

    I admire your desire to obey the Law of Moses. You say you do it out of Love for God, and I see no error in that motive.

    You said that Paul is the only witness to the Law not being a part of salvation. I will give you the witness of Peter. In acts 15 we find the Council of Jerusalem. You’re welcome to read the context of the chapter, but for this post, I will put in the words of Peter.
    7b.” Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe. 8. And God who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the HOLY SPIRIT Just as he did to us, 9. and he made no distinction between us and them, having CLEANSED their hearts BY FAITH. 10. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples THAT NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BEAR? 11. But WE believe (Jewish believers) that we will be saved through the grace of our LORD Jesus, Just as they will.”

    If you read the context of acts 15, it will reinforce what is said here, that this discussion is about the Law of Moses. The solution that is come to is neither condemning those who obey the Law, nor burdening those who are gentiles to abide by the Law. It IS condemning those who are Judaizers, and also those who might take the judgement of the council as a Lisence to Sin. The Only requirements made by the council are those which “interfered” with Jesus First “new Commandment”, That of Belief. (Aka avoidance of Idolotry),And those that violated his second new commandment, that of Loving one another as Christ Loved us (offending the Jews among them by eating blood or strangled animals in their prescence.)

    If you look later in acts, Paul, understanding that Timothy Could not minister to Jews properly, actually had Timothy circumscised so as not to offend the Jews. In other words, as Paul puts it in Galations 6:15, “It is neither circumscision nor un-circumscision, But A NEW CREATION.” In other words, it does not matter if you abide by the law, or do not abide by the Law, what Matters is that we are a New Creature In Christ.

    NEW CREATION. I really love that Paul used these words, because it takes us back to our actual CREATION. What is a new Creation, if we do not Understand why God created us in the first place? See John 3:1-8. Born again, Born Of the Spirit. The work Jesus did on the cross, has enabled us to be born of the spirit. We Followed and Obeyed the Law out of fear of Judgement under the “fallen covenent”. We live by Faith that Jesus has saved us from judgement under the “new covenent”. Living by faith is living our lives, not in fear of Judgement, but in the Joy of believing that God has transformed our hearts via the cross.

    The Most important concept to note when looking at the original creation is that Humans did not have the “knowledge of Good and evil” (the tree we ate of.) We always accept that this is the time when our Knowledge of Evil came, but fail to see that this is also when our “Knowledge of Good” came to us. WE were not supposed to be the judges of these things. We were created to abide in communion with God, and in his Love. Understanding Good and evil after the fall led us to write laws, and to live under them, or rebel against them. In the case of Moses, God wrote the Law for the Jews, But its intent was to lead to repentence and communion with God.
    The concept of virtue, or righteousness as used in the bible, can only be acheived in the abscence of Judgement and Law. Virtue, motivated by fear of Judgement, is virtue by coersion. And therefore a selfish act, and not virtue. True Virtue, can ONLY be attained in the abscence of Judgement, which is what the cross did.! Living by faith is living in the belief that Jesus took upon himself the punishment for all our sins, therefore we are no longer condemned. If we live by this faith, the spirit will lead us to righteousness. IT is as they say, A LEAP, to believe this. If David would have been so hung up on the Law, he would not have killed the Philistines. His act of murder was counted as righteousness. The same with Abraham, his willingness to sacrifice his son (which was graciously stopped) was counted as his righteousness.

    I will continue Later….

    • Another very good post.

      And I feel that it safe to say, that we are doing this out of our brotherly love for you Al.
      Here you have three witnesses saying the same thing.

      Be Blessed

  57. Al
    That was wierd, part two is above part one? Sorry for the three part answer.
    The reason why I went to first John was to show you that the commandments which we are to keep under the new covenent are Jesus’ commandments which he gave us in the Gospel of John. “And this is his commandment, That we believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ and Love one another just as he commanded us 24.Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God and God in him.. And by this we knowthat he abides in us, by the spirit whom he has given us.” I John 3:23-24 These are the commandments that a “child” of God knows. These are the commands which if you deny, you deny Christ. That is why we are adamant in our opposition to your views.
    By equating this new commandment with the second one of the Torah, you are denying the Gospel. To love one another as Christ loved us is so much more than love your neighbor as yourself. and so is belief in Jesus so much more than Love the lord your God with all your heart. Yes these commands mirror one another. But the old covenent laws deal with fallen man, while the new covenent laws deal with Redeemed man. One comes from one mans sin, one comes from Jesus righteousness. One condemns us to death and judgement, while the other brings eternal life and forgiveness. In other words, the commandments of the new covenent are mirror opposites of the old covenent. Yet are a reflection of them. If you do not understand this transformation, then perhaps you need to examine that there was a transformation in your life to begin with. It all starts with the belief that Jesus fulfilled the totality of our punishment for our sin on the cross. I John 4:10 States it this way: “In this is Love, NOT THAT WE HAVE LOVED GOD but that he has loved us and sent his son to be a propitiation for our sins. 11. Beloved if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.” I am curious to see what your aramaic bible translates the word propitiation into. Mine says it means appeasement or satisfaction, as in the cross satisfied God’s demand for punishment for sin.
    The words you wrote above deny this gospel, and deny Christ. This is why we take offence to it. We say this in love towards you, for you are set in your ways, in the hopes that it may lead to repentence. Or perhaps it is you who Matthew 7:21 refers to. The verse i always quote when someone quotes that verse is I corinthians 13:1-3. Without God’s Love, obeying the Law means nothing. We cannot love one another until we abide in his love, which is living by faith in what Christ did on the cross.

  58. Alienenated, Don, Dru,

    Alienated,

    I do appreciate your interaction in these discussions and what you bring to the table. With that said……

    Your comment about James 2:8 being a second witness to Paul is not even on point. This is the disconnect that I am talking about. Paul and the other writers of the letters in the N.T. were in agreement, I believe that with everything that is in me. The 12 did say that many of the things that Paul said were hard to understand, but that just being the difference of their positions is life. While Yah had infused them with all knowledge to fulfill the tasks that had been given to them, there lives had been worlds apart. The 12 having routine jobs, most working with their hands to make their living. Paul, on the other hand, trained and educated by the best in Yisrael. Their writings show this. While “it is said of Paul” that the instructions (law) had passed away and should not be kept at all, we hear nothing of that from the 12. All of the Apostles understood that salvation came through the shed blood of Mashiach, PERIOD. None of the 12 said that the instructions had passed away. Yahshua was their salvation, the instructions (law) were their code of conduct in this life. If you will, a fence around to keep them safe in this world. How does Paul teach others that observing the instructions is wrong, while observing them hisself? It makes no sense! Doing that would be highly disingenuous and destroy his credibility with those whom he was teaching. I was never saying in my last post that Paul and the other 12 Apostles were at odds with each other. I was just making the point that their writings, seem to oppose each other on this one point of observing the instructions due to our misunderstanding of what is actually being said. DO NOT LINK WHAT I AM SAYING TO SALVATION!!!!! I don’t know how much clearer I can say it.
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 John 2
    1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    You belittled observing Kashrut (the dietary laws). That is why I used it. I wasn’t going to put something out there which seemed to make myself more than I am. The dietary laws are seen by most as, “the least of these commandments”. (Matthew 5:19) I knew it would seem trivial. You do not have the eyes to see this, but it has value with The Father. Does not change my salvation at all! But non-ethnic Yisrael observing this (along with the other instructions) is pleasing in His sight and will, in due time, provoke ethnic Yisrael to turn to their Mashiach. That is how we Gentiles from the Nations (who have become of the seed of the woman) will provoke the Jews to turn to their Messiah.. We will not do it by eating “swine” and breaking all the other commandments in the name of Jesus. They have seen that for almost 2000 years. How has that worked out????

    Romans 11:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    One last thing, as far as this “no option” thing, do you realize what you are saying? That in the scripture dealing with the judgment seat of Mashiach, which is taking place in the last days, that he has “no choice” in what He is going to say. Everyone understands He has not sacrificed hisself yet. Do you think He didn’t know what would be happening on the day He was talking about or that He doesn’t know every detail of that day? His object was not to mislead everyone here. He has full knowledge and said what He meant. His words were relevant to that day. We are all in trouble if He is continually saying one thing, but meaning something entirely different. With that being your guage of interpreting what was said prior to Mashiach ascending, you can basically overturn anything that does not line up with your theological understanding and totally change the meaning of most scriptures.

    Don,
    I appreciate you writing. You are equating what I am saying to our salvation. I am not saying that. None of you seem to be able to deal with salvation through only the blood of Yahshua and still keeping the commandments. The two are not mutually exclusive. They co-exist in Mashiach. I said this before as has James G. Refer to the scripture below:

    Revelation 12:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Notice that the dragon is wroth with the woman and the remnant of her seed for keeping the commandments and having the testimony of HaMashiach. That is all of the seed of the woman, both ethnic and non ethnic Yisrael, who are alive during this time. How much plainer does it get? Also, notice in the letters to the seven assemblies in the book of Revelations. Yahshua begins each of the seven letters with, I know your WORKS. I honestly understand where all of you are coming from. It boils down to what each of us understands to be the truth. It is hard to break 2000 years of traditions that have been handed down to us, that has interwoven itself into our culture; our thinking, how we divide scripture, how we live our daily lives, the comfort that we find in the status quo. With our Western Gentile thinking, it all makes perfect sense, and since there is no way the vast majority could be wrong here, we go on our way reading and understanding things with preconceived ideas, and when anything comes up to upset that, we automatically put up our defense mechanisms to keep from upsetting the apple cart and coming out of our comfort zone. Anyway, I would be interested in knowing your take on the two scriptures above.

    Dru,

    I see all of you as my brothers in Mashiach. I know your hearts and know you are sincere in what you are saying. What you quoted from Peter was concerning earning salvation through the instructions. This is always the direction this goes. No matter how many times we discuss these things. The instructions (laws) that Yah gave to Yisrael, were to keep them on the path of right doing in this life on earth. The sacrifice of bulls and goats were the temporary atoning sacrifice for sin. A picture of the coming Mashiach, who would shed His blood once and for all for the remission of sins. The blood of bulls and goats were no longer needed after Yahshua spilled His own blood for the sins of His people, both alive during that time and those who would come later unto the end of time. The laws we have in whatever country we live in, are civil laws and many times will transgress the Law of Mashiach. We are told to obey those in authority over us in the world, but not to the point breaking His word. Like it or not, the Torah, which is reiterated and verified by Yahshua are the instructions of His Kingdom on this earth. Not until heaven and earth pass will the law be done away with. As long as there is sin, there will be the law. Without the presence of sin there is no need for the law,

    Matthew 5:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    I would also be interested to know what you think about the verse in Rev. 12:17 noted above. The inference of this scripture is, if you don’t keep the commandments, and or don’t have the testimony of Mashiach, he (HaSatan) is not after you, because he has already defeated you. There is an opening for another whole round of discussions!!!!

    Be Blessed my brothers in Messiah

    • Dear Al,

      All of us have expressed what the “Commandment” consists of and is.
      “And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.” 1 John 3:23.

      You quote 1 John 2:7 to substantiate your position,(“Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.”)
      Yet you fail to recognize that in the very next epistle 2 John 1:4-6., John not only clarifies what he means regarding the above verse, but also in doing so, it negates any validity for you to maintain your premise.
      ” I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.”

      I have, (we have) tried our best for you to see this Al. However it appears that we are simply at an impasse.
      I wish you well brother.
      Be Blessed.

  59. Al
    In response to revalation 12:17 again, this is Referring to the laws which Jesus gave as written in John’s Gospel as part of the upper room discourse. All the quotes are from the same author John’s Gospel, John’s epistles, and John’s revalation, writing to an audience familiar with his other writings.
    I would like to hear your response to the mirroring of old and new Covenents and the laws associated with them. I will try to simplify the differences.
    OLD COVENENT.God’s glory, Creation, fall, law, repentence, Communion with God = our failure VS Our failure, God’s love (John 3:16),repentence, belief, sanctification, Love perfected in us, New creation.= God’s glory. Do you see the Mirroring that is occurring? Do you see the redemption? In the Old covenent the law leads to repentence. In the new Covenent, Repentence leads to belief and sanctification. There is no judgement in the new covenent for there is no Law to judge by because it is all the work of God in us, therefore wholly righteous already. Therefore the only Laws that apply are believe on the lord Jesus, and love one another, not as we love ourselves, but as God loved us!
    In I John, John finishes epistle by talking about a sin that leads to death. His final words are “keep yourself from Idols” AKA Idolotry. That is because this is the only part of God’s new covenent plan that involves us. We must believe in order to be saved when we deny the power of the cross, we deny God and his work, which will be glorified in the end. when we fall back into self righteousness, legalism, or whatever you call it. It is us ascribing more worth to our actions than is needed, and therefore we are elevating our standing in God’s sight, This is idolotry. You are therefore putting yourself back into bondage of the law, when God’s plan was to free you from your sin, and therefore not be yoked by the Law. When you begin to understand it this way, it truly is a masterful plan.!!

    Now Under this new covenent we still have our fallen flesh and creation to deal with.
    Galations 5:16-18 talks of How we are to live and sojourn while we are here:
    “But I say, WALK BY THE SPIRIT, and you will not gratify the DESIRES OF THE FLESH. 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.” When we do this we produce the fruit of the Spirit, “against such things there is no law”. (V23)

    Al: we cannot argue you into the kingdom, only tell you the way to get there, and it is by faith alone in grace alone. You have to take the leap. When we rely on the law, we rely on the flesh, when we are led by the spirit, we produce fruit. May God bless you and his Spirit lead you in that way if you take that leap.

  60. When the Paraclete flew into the USA the Prince of Peace Church of Philadelphia Church burned to the ground. The LORD warned you that the fire would come to burn down those that built upon the foundations of his Son with building materials.

  61. Now stop your idolatry

    Teshuvah

  62. wow i didn’t think about the wine and oil implication. wine is those who are in the covenant through Jesus’ blood, oil is those who are in the covenant through ancestry of Prophets, Priests, and Kings who were anointed with oil. good eye Marianne =)

    • hi “s”

      Yes, it took me awhile before I noticed that. During a famine, most would not care about oil or wine….not real food…..more concerned about bread, meat, vegetables, etc. Hopefully, the believers are protected to some degree during this time, since they are still here to share the gospel.

  63. Hi Marianne,

    After further research this could perhaps answer your question better.

    The Wycliffe Bible, translated by John Wycliffe, 1395.
    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

    2Th 2:1 But, britheren, we preien you bi the comyng of oure Lord Jhesu Crist, and of oure congregacioun in to the same comyng,
    2Th 2:2 that ye be not mouyd soone fro youre witt, nether be aferd, nether bi spirit, nether bi word, nether bi epistle as sent bi vs, as if the dai of the Lord be nyy.
    2Th 2:3 No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but “dissencioun” come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun,

    The Tyndale Bible, translated by William Tyndale, 1534.
    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

    2Th 2:1 We beseche you brethren by the commynge of oure lorde Iesu Christ and in that we shall assemble vnto him
    2Th 2:2 that ye be not sodely moved from youre mynde and be not troubled nether by sprete nether by wordes nor yet by letter which shuld seme to come from vs as though the daye of Christ were at honde.
    2Th 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a “departynge” fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

    Coverdale Bible, translated by Miles Coverdale, 1535.
    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

    2Th 2:1 We beseke you brethren by the commynge of or LORDE Iesus Christ, and in that we shal assemble vnto him,
    2Th 2:2 that ye be not sodenly moued fro youre mynde, and be not troubled, nether by sprete, nether by wordes, ner yet by letter, which shulde seme to be sent from vs, as though ye daye of Christ were at hande.
    2Th 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the “departynge” come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

    I am still in the process of searching out more of the early English translations, however it is apparent that the phrase “falling away” , (or the Greek apostasia) in 2 Thess.2:3., was initially translated as “departure or departing” based upon apostasia being a compound word derived from apo ” from” and istemi “stand.”
    Thus, it has the core meaning of “away from” or “departure”

    If it wasn’t for the King James translators, changing “apostasia” from “departure” to “falling away” in what appears to be an arbitrary decision, (in which others simply followed suit), much of the confusion regarding this topic could have been eliminated.

    Be Blessed

  64. Ali,
    I left some homework for Marianne up above at her ‘a or b’ question, but I have a different kind of homework for you.

    Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

    (Question #1): What is this half an hour of silence in heaven all about?

    Luk 17:36,37 Two shall be in the field, one will be taken, and the other left. v37 And they answered [by asking a question] and said to Him(Jesus), Where, Lord? And He(Jesus) said to them, Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    (Question #2):
    (2a) Where are these eagles gathering together?
    (2b) Why are eagles gathering?
    (2c) What are these eagles?
    (2d) Are these eagles hungry?
    (2e) Is this a rapture-like event?

    • Hi 45,

      Homework eh? (Yep I’m Canadian.)

      Okay regarding question #1 and the “silence in heaven” described in Rev. 8:1.
      Obviously this would be speculation on my part, however when one also takes the ensuing damage that is caused by the sounding of the angels shofars into consideration, which happens directly after that period of silence, then perhaps it has to do with what is written within Amos 8, specifically verse 3? But to be truthful, I don’t really have a clue.

      In respects to the rest of the so called homework, (which with you being the one dolling it out so to speak, would imply that you are the teacher per se) which is fine, I can play that game. My answers are below.

      * The eagles, or more accurately the vultures, would be gathering in Har, or Mount Megiddo.
      * To feast. (see Rev 19:17,18 and 21.)
      * See answer 1 above.
      * See answer 2 above.
      * Not in the slightest.

      If I don’t receive at least a B+, you buddy ain’t getting no apple.

    • Canadian? Awesome! Don’t know how you all grade em up there, but down here we give everyone an A just to swiftly pass ‘problem children’ on to the next unlucky teacher in the chain. (I believe they call it; ‘No Child Left Behind’) Of course that is a theme I know you would be very happy with! : )

      But alas, I am not a teacher. However, I appreciate your willingness to play a game with me. After all, how much more fun can scripture study get, than to enjoy it in game and in real life both?

      For the moment you get an ‘Incomplete Homework’ eh?
      =============================================
      (#1) How about the ‘one-half’ aspect of the question?

      (#2c) What are these eagles?
      (#2e) Account for how one is selectively left behind. Also account for exactly how the one taken is brought to his or her destination, especially accounting for the verse context below where two people are asleep inside a locked up house, and yet only one is taken. Sure sounds like a rapture-like event to me. What do call it? And What do you think is happening here?

      Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

      • Hi 45,

        We have beaten the “one taken, one left” theory to death here.
        So much so that at one point I even vacillated momentarily and had a mental relapse. lol.
        Thank God that Don responded to my post and slapped me back into reality at the time.

        The majority here believe that the “One taken, One left” has far more to do with the “Wheat and Tares” parable, than anything to do with a rapture.
        But hey, fill us all in as to how you see it. I’m all ears, (or eyes under the circumstances. lol.)
        And while you are at it, what the heck are you talking about in that last post that you made to Marianne, in regards to the restrainer?????????????????

    • Hello 45squared and all,

      In answer to your question regarding (1) One taken, one left and (2) Where there is a dead body the eagles will gather.

      Here is what I have according what I believe God has revealed to me through his word. As we will see, both (1) and (2) are related to each other.

      (1) One taken:

      First, I believe that many have misinterpreted the parable of the “One Taken, one left” event, interpreting the “One taken” as representing those being caught up or raptured as they like to call it.
      But after analyzing the Scripture it is clear that this interpretation does not support that assumption. For the sake of demonstrating the error in this interpretation, I am listing the Scripture below:

      “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the
      ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.” (Mt.24:37-41)

      First and most important is to understand who it is that is being taken and the way that we can ascertain this is by looking at the Scripture itself. Notice that the “One taken” at the coming of the Son of Man, is being compared to those in the days of Noah who were “Taken” by the flood. Therefore, since those who were taken in the flood are representing the unrighteous, then the “One taken” group at the coming of the Son of Man must also be representing the unrighteous. If the “One taken” group were those being represented as those being caught up, that is, raptured, then that would mean that in the Scripture the righteous would be in comparison to the unrighteous. That is, those unrighteous taken in the flood would be in comparison to the righteous of the “One take” in the catching away. That being said, I believe that the Scripture is comparing apples to apples here, that is, a comparison is being made regarding the unrighteous taken by the flood in the days of Noah, with the unrighteous of the “One taken” group at the coming of the Son of Man.

      Those of the “One taken, one left” group of Mt.24:37-41 are synonymous with the “Weeds and the Wheat” in the parable found in Mt.13:24-30, 37-43. The weeds are representing the unrighteous, where the wheat represent the righteous. Notice that in Mt.13:30 it states that when the Lord comes, he will tell the harvesters ( his angels) to go and “First collect the weeds,” these are the “One Taken.”Those who are left are the wheat, which are synonymous
      with those who are left in the “One taken, one left” group. In conclusion, those who are taken in the “One taken, one left” group are representing the unrighteous being compared to those taken in the flood and are therefore are not representing those who are caught up or raptured.

      (2) Where there is a dead body the eagles will gather:

      Many have come up with some far-fetched interpretations regarding number (2), but anyone who has studied the book of Revelation will know what Jesus is referring to in regards to his response to his disciples. First of all, I think that you will agree that when Jesus said “Where there is a dead body the eagles will gather,” it was in relation to his coming at the end of the age. We know this because just
      prior to his mention of this, he mentions that his coming will be likened to the lightning that is seen in the east that will also be visible in the west. We are given a better understanding of what Jesus response is referring to when we look at Luke’s version as follows:

      “I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” ‘Where, Lord?’ They asked
      He replied, ‘Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.’ ”

      In the verse above, Jesus says, “One will be taken and the other left” and the disciples response is “Where, Lord?” That is, where are they going to be taken? In order to get a better idea of what is referred to regarding the dead body and the vultures gathering, we need to understand what events take place at the Lord’s return, which can be found in Rev.19:11-21. Without going into every detail,
      The rider on the white horse, that is, the Word of God, the Lord Jesus, is seen descending from heaven with his army following him on white horses dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which would be us. At the same time there is another event which takes place as follows:

      “And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.’ ” (Rev.19:17-18)

      The birds here that are gathered together by the angel to eat at the great supper of God are synonymous with what Jesus said in Matthew in regards to “‘Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
      At the time of the Lord’s return at the end of the age, the angel calls all the birds (Eagles/Vultures) of the air together to eat the flesh of those kings, their generals, their armies, their horses and riders that will have previously been gathered together by those three evil spirits that look like frogs that come out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet as stated at the sixth bowl judgment. At the same time, the harvesters, that is, the angels, will have already been going throughout the earth collecting those weeds (One taken) and will bring them back to where all of those kings, generals and their armies will have been gathered and then the double-edged sword will proceed out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, which is the word of God and they will all fall dead. At that time their souls will go into Hades until they are resurrected at the great white throne judgment and the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. Immediately following that, Satan will be captured and thrown into the Abyss where he will be bound during the Lord’s thousand year reign on earth so that he can no longer deceive the nations during that time. (Rev.20:1-3,7-10)

      To summarize:

      1. One Taken, one left: Those of the “One taken” group must be representing the unrighteous seeing that they are being compared to the unrighteous who were taken away in the flood and are therefore not representing the catching away.

      2. Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather: The dead bodies will be those weeds who will be collected at the end of the age by the angels and all those who will have been gathered at Armageddon. At that time, a double-edged sword will proceed from the mouth of the rider on the horse and all those who have been gathered there will be killed and the birds of the air will eat their flesh.

  65. Personal Testimony:
    Decades ago before all the Left Behind books and movies, there was a four-part movie called ‘The Thief in The Night’ collection, which was responsible for the ground swell of Pre-tribulation Rapture belief in the churches. This video series was what created the market for the many Left Behind books and movies. I owned these old videos back then and held to the Pre-Tribber view for a very long time. I even witnessed to people regarding this subject matter. The movies were poorly done in comparison to today’s standards, but back then they were VERY scary.

    Then about 15 years ago or so, after digging into scripture very deeply for myself, I became very offended that I had actually been deceived earlier for so many years with regard to this event occurring before the tribulation wrath. I could no longer hold a clear conscience by agreeing that it was possible. : ( Then going beyond scripture, I prayed and asked God that if it were not true, then why in the world would he allow the belief in an easy escape from the tribulation to become so widespread. He told me why. It made me sad for quite a while, but the sadness is gone now.
    Now I understand. And now I also have compassion toward those who currently believe like I once did, for the greater portion of my Christian life I have believed in the pre-tribulation rapture.

    Below is the theme song from ‘The Original Rapture Movie.’ The context of the below song (where one is taken and the other left) is per Luke 17:34-37 which results in the raptured people being brought to Armageddon valley to eaten by vultures.

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HNnVfF7IRI?rel=0&w=420&h=315%5D

    • It is always amazing to me that when someone changes their stand on some biblical truth, that now everyone else is wrong, as though God only reveils the truth of his word to that person. Also, I personally never came to the conclusion of a pre-tribulation belief based on any series of books or movies, but soley on the study of the word of God. You talk to people about God foreknowing and predestinating and they call you a Calvanist, even if you have never read anything by Calvan. My interpretation of a pre-wrath, pre-first seal resurrection and catching away comes directly from the word of God and not by any man’s teaching.

      The main issue that you can never get away from is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as God’s wrath, as it is mentioned as such in each set of seven judgments, once at the sixth seal, next at the seventh trumpet and lastly at the beginning and encompasing the seven bowl judgments. Then you come to the fact that the word “Ekklesia” translated as “Church” is mentioned over and over again from Revelation chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3 and never used again within the narrative. After the end of chapter 3, from then on, the word “Hagios” translate as “Saints” is used to describe believers and that because the Ekklesia that is, the church is gone.

      The book of Revelation is divided into three parts, as revealed in Rev. 1:19 which says:

      “Write , therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.”

      What you have “Seen” consisted of John’s brief discription of the Lord’s return at the end of the age as described in Rev.1:7 and his vision of the Lord in his glorfied state.

      What is “Now” consists of the letters to the seven churches, which refers to those seven literal churches of that time as well as representing types of churches throughout the entire church period. That being said, we are still in the “Now” which is represented by the entire church period.

      What will take place “Later” begins in Rev.4:1 by the statement: “Come up here and I will show you what must take place ‘After this’ ” that is, what will take place after the “Now” or that which takes place after the church period. God is using John here in his word to sybolically represent the church in Rev.4:1 when he hears the voice that sounds like a trumpet which says, “Come up here and I will show you what must take place later, this being the resurrection and catching away. The voice that he hears that “sounds like a trumpet” is a clue in that it is synonymous with the “Trumpet call of God” found in 1 Thes.4:16. That being said, we are still in the “Now”, that is, we are still in the church period and prior to that first seal being opened, the church will have been removed and then the “What must take place later” will begin which is represented by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

      Because the church is not appointed to suffer through God’s wrath, many try to circumvent the word of God by specifing that only the battle of Armageddon is to be considered as the wrath of God, which is rediculous, because, the seals, trumpets and bowls are worse than just being gathered at Armageddon and being killed by the spoken word of God, which is that double-edged sword (Eph.6:17).

      The tribulation that Jesus said that we as believers would have, is defined as that which comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness ochestrating in the background. The wrath of God on the otherhand is just that, God directly pouring his wrath out on the inhabitants of the earth and that on those who love the flesh and continue to reject his provision of salvation through his Son. Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. That being said, God is not going to build his church, which consists of those who have repented and who believe in and are waiting for his Son and then is going to pour out his wrath upon them! And we know that the seals, trumpets and bowls are indeed God’s wrath because the Lamb is the one opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and then into the bowls. It is important to understand that there is a big difference between trial and tribulation opposed to God’s wrath.

      Even in 1 Thesaloninans Paul lists the chronology of events, first he gives the details concerning the resurrection and catching away, also called the day of the Lord, which is then followed with the description of God’s wrath.

      “When people are saying, ‘Peace and safety’ then destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman and they will not escape. But you brothers….” I don’t have to even finish the rest of it because those first three words immediately infer the opposite of not escaping, that is, you brothers will escape. Why? because we are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise.

      Regarding God pouring his wrath out (any wrath), I would refer back to what Father Abraham said to the Lord regarding Lot living in Sodom:

      “Will you seep away the righteous with the wicked?”

      The Lord answered:

      “For the sake of ten righeous I will not destroy it.”

      And you think that the Lord is going to pour out his wrath upon his church during that time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now or shall ever be? So terrible will God’s wrath be that if those days had not been shortened no one would be left in the world? Since God’s wrath will include the entire earth, we cannot just be rescued out of a city by angels or put in a boat in order to escape and therefore, we must be removed.

    • I too was deceived on this notion of a pretrib rapture…UNTIL I delved into scripture myself. Once you study for yourself it is very easy to see just the opposite of what is being taught ( well sometimes a preacher may talk about but most don’t even know enough to utter a word on the “rapture”)…but the ones that do are teaching false doctrine of pretrib.

  66. Plenty of material for me to respond to!

    Very glad every one is awake. : )

    Doing my best to put together succinct answers to all, so that everyone is happy and more eager to launch forward together with stimulating (but friendly) discussions…

    45

  67. Hello 45 and all,

    Here is something else to consider regarding this issue: The verse states that “one will be taken, one will be left. On the other hand Jesus said:

    “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and road is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it.”

    If you believe that the Scripture regarding “One take” is in reference to those who are being caught up, then you have 50% percent of the inhabitants of the earth being, as they say, raptured. This does not coincide with the wide gate and broad road, which represents many people in comparison going to their destruction, opposed to the narrow gate and only a few finding that road.

    Just something else to think about.

  68. Correction: “For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it.”

  69. Hi Don and all,

    I pretty much done now, but am going to sleep on it. After a final proofing which hopefully fixes most grammer and spelling errors, will post it.

    It is longer than I would have liked, but it is sufficiently comprehensive covering all presented material from/to the three of you. Many hours of writing today… Tired. Sigh…

  70. ==================================================
    Table of Contents
    1) Marianne
    45’s Restrainer observations (framed as questions)
    Contributing participants’ cumulative responses:
    45’s subsequent commentary on the above:
    Marianne’s Paradox:
    Marianne’s Paradox – Expanded Commentary:
    Marianne’s Paradox Conclusion:
    2) Alienated
    3) Don
    Ten point reply to Don:

    Brevity: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” – Albert Einstein, a Jew
    Unfortunately my 8088 mind doesn’t match Einstein’s TILE-Gx, therefore this post lacks considerably…
    ==================================================
    Below are multiple examples of scriptural RESTRAINERS. Presentation of questions instead of ‘blog dumping’ was to create interactive-interdependent growth. Perhaps we should give Socrates his hemlock and move on to boring passionless dialogs. The seven questions took several hours to create and equally long to answer. If challenging to anyone, goal was achieved. And if questions helped solve Marianne’s 8 month paradox, then achieved becomes excellent.

    Restrainer defined:
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/restrainer Something that restrains http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/restrain (“fasten, tighten”)
    Verb: (transitive) To control or keep in check. Verb: (transitive) To deprive of liberty. Verb: (transitive) To restrict or limit.
    ==================================================
    45’s Restrainer observations (framed as questions)
    ==================================================
    These questions are open to ANYONE. Though scripture does not often use the exact word ‘restrainer’, restrainer theme is written of throughout the Bible, literally from cover to cover. What more could possibly be said without just giving the answer? Seven Bold Hints:
    (1) Regarding the restrainer, consider the question: What restrainer was moved out of the way for the great flood to come in the days of Noah? Answer to Noah’s flood restrainer in found in both Genesis 1 and Genesis 7.
    (2) What restrainer was taken out of the way during the crucifixion? This is written about in at least six places in the New Testament and many times in the Old Testament.
    (3) Whenever a restrainer is removed out of the way, what physical phenomena ALWAYS occurs on the object from whom the restrainer is taken away?
    (4) What painful restrainer removing ordinance did God establish with Abraham unto every single Christian? (This is a very big hint.)
    (5) What restrainer is painfully removed repetitively before any woman can become pregnant? (Please do not respond to (#6) on this blog. Thank you. It has nothing to do with men.)
    (6) Why is it necessary for the Revelation 13 Beast to suffer a head wound that nearly kills it?
    (7) What two key interrogatives are common to every restrainer removal?
    ==================================================
    Contributing participants cumulative responses:
    ==================================================
    1. there is no restrainer in Genesis 1 or 7
    2. Jesus, the law, the veil in the temple
    3. impact
    4. no idea – he just told him to leave where he was, what ordinance? ….I think the only one in effect was circumcision….. no big hint here.
    5. hormones, condoms, are you serious? repetitively removed? a man’s self control
    6. if you don’t want us to respond, why did you ask the question?
    7. i don’t know, maybe “would you like me to remove you?” and “who are you?”
    ==================================================
    45’s subsequent commentary on the above:
    ==================================================
    1. The firmament was removed causing the upper waters to rain down and collect with the lower waters. The restraining influence of this water canopy firmament ‘heavenly arch’ established a green house environment which was the key reason for human life spans approaching 1,000 years before the flood. Its restraining presence prevented rainbows and the four distinct seasons. With the collapse of the firmament, vegetation could no longer grow at the earth’s poles. http://www.remnantreport.com/cgi-bin/imcart/read.cgi?article_id=206&sub=3 Of course not all Christians believe the Bible tells the truth about Adam living 12x longer than men today, only saying that I personally believe Adam to be 930 years old. There is only one biblically credible and scientifically plausible explanation for the earth’s biosphere to permit such longevity.
    Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    Gen 7:11 In the 600th year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the 17th day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven(restraining firmament) were opened.
    Prophetic scripture suggests that during the Millennial reign, another ‘longevity-enhancing’ firmament might be created.
    Isa 65:20b … For the child will die a 100 years old; but the sinner who is a 100 years old will be despised.

    2. The veil in the temple was restraining humanity from entering the heavenly throne room of grace, the Holy of Holies in heaven.
    Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
    Heb 9:24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.
    [Christ’s ascension into heaven and subsequent entry into the true Holiest Place 10 days later caused Holy Spirit to pour out - Acts 2]
    Heb 9:8 the Holy Spirit signifying by this that the way into the Holiest of all was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    Heb 6:19 which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters into that within the veil,

    3. ‘Impact’ could work. I was looking for something more detailed like ‘broken’ such that once a restrainer is removed, that same restrainer is ruined, totally losing its ‘Humpty Dumpty’ capacity to ever restrain again. For example, when firmament was removed, there was an earthquake which allowed the fountains of the deep to be broken up, and when the temple veil was torn in two there was an earthquake permanently leaving fissures scars in the earth, and when Jew circumcision occurs the foreskin falls away never to return, and when heart circumcision occurs there is an earthquake-like shattering of a person’s willful pride against the Holy Spirit, and when uterine sloughing painfully departs it never returns to be recycled, and when the Rev13 beast head is injured something is permanently taken away.

    4. This is a very big hint. Circumcision of the heart is something every Christian is familiar with, for Holy Spirit has no room to take root and grow unless the fleshly restrainer be removed. The parable of the sower and the soils tells of three fleshly restrainers which quench Holy Spirit: (1)hard soil, (2)rocks, and (3)weeds.
    Mar 4:13 And he(Jesus) said unto them(12 Apostles), Know you not THIS parable? And how then will you know ALL parables??
    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! … let the one who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the Water of Life FREELY.
    Isa 55:1 Ho, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat. Yea, come, BUY wine and milk without money and WITHOUT PRICE.
    [It is Yielding, not Exchange. We do not purchase Holy Spirit with foreskins, but rather by removing ‘foreskin’ restraining rocks and ‘foreskin’ quenching weeds we create a garden wherein the free gift of Holy Spirit can grow.]
    Deu 10:16 Therefore, circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stiff-necked.
    Joe 2:13 Yes, tear your heart and not your robes, and turn to Jehovah your God: for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and He pities because of the evil.
    Jer 4:4a Circumcise yourselves to Jehovah, and take away the foreskins of your heart, …
    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
    Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
    Rom 8:13,14 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die. But if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. v14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    2Cor6:1b … receive not the grace of God in vain. — > How? — > 1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

    5. Though only mentioned privately to Marianne when I first came to this blog, Please listen everyone! I misspell words and make typos sometimes! Please extend grace to me in this area. Under Question Five I wrote (#6) but neglected to edit it to (#5). Mentioning rhetorical censorship concerning #5 was to encourage discrete respectful blog posts. Intent was upright.

    Now to answer: As mentioned in the question, I specifically eliminated men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niddah Niddah rituals had an end goal of maximizing fertility unto Gen1:28 multiplication. Lev20:20&21 coupled with Num5 speak of a barren womb SOMETIMES (but not always) being the result of sin. If the restraining endometrial thickening of the previous lunar cycle is not removed, the new thickening environment is less-perfect which can make it more difficult for a fertilized egg to implant itself in the uterine wall, thereby impairing fertility. The entire 7 year Great Tribulation from a reproductive point of view could be looked at as the 7 days of Niddah in Lev15. Worldwide spiritual adultery (found in the skirts of both men and women) which is (a restrainer to righteousness) must be removed during the tribulation period, in order that the 1000 years of peace be exactly that. Beyond merely about pouring wrath upon the wicked, the tribulation is more importantly to plow the earth so that something more fruitful can grow, erasing memory of the old. Because Niddah is the seven red days of the lunar cycle, we can postulate God’s overlay of lunar phases with menstruation, suggests a possible 7 year period of Blood Moon followed by a Blood Moon. More significant if both Blood Moons occurred in Israel, yet more significant still if both were to drop below Israel’s horizon while still red (to symbolize falling away of a restrainer). The “Restrainer” in this case would be fruitless spiritual fornication & adultery of all past cycles, being swept away by the wind of Daniel 2:35.
    Lev 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart 7 days: …
    Lev 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a menstruous woman, …uncovered the fountain of her blood…both… shall be cut off …
    Lev 20:20 And if a man shall lie with his uncle’s wife, he has uncovered his uncle’s nakedness. … They shall die childless.
    Lev 20:21 And if a man shall take his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing… uncovered his brother’s nakedness; they shall be childless.
    Isa 47:1-3 Come down, and sit on the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground. There is no throne for you, O daughter of the Chaldeans. For you shall no more be called tender and delicate. v2 Take the millstones and grind meal. Push back your veil, draw up your skirt, uncover your leg, pass over the rivers. v3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, your shame shall be seen; I will take vengeance and I will not meet you as a man.
    Dan 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were broken to pieces together. And they became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors. And the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    Hebrew language uses a cross blend of Homophone-Polyseme such that two words being pronounced nearly identical and spelled nearly identical, can have separate but linked meanings. H2321 New (chodesh) and H6944 Holy (kodesh) are two such words. The new moon festival was practiced as a kind of repentant starting over with a new(even Holy) month. The 19yr Metonic Hebrew calendar primarily lunar phase driven, established the new moon festivals, annual holy feasts, and women’s cycles, so Israel culture is very lunar-centered, cutting off the restraining influences of the old and starting again with the new, over and over. Sunset, Sabbath, and Moon are fundamental biblical cycles to regularly shed the old, to birth the new (holy or clean) unto pregnant multiplication.
    Rev 12:1 …a woman … the moon under her feet, …
    Ps 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in its fullness(or appointed time), on our solemn feast day.
    Isa 66:23 …from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    6. Three horns acting as a restrainer must be removed for the little horn to take its place. Damage to the head is a byproduct of the restrainer removal.
    Dan 7:7,8 After this I looked in the night visions, and behold, a 4th beast, frightening and terrifying, and very strong. And it had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the rest with its feet. And it was different from all the beasts before it; and it had 10 horns. v8 I was thinking about the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom THREE of the first horns were uprooted. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth marveled after the beast.

    7. The 2Thess2:7 restrainer is commonly thought of as the interrogative personal pronoun ‘Who?’, especially since most english translations have inserted the personal pronoun “He” where the greek ONLY has [verbs, adverbs, & conjunctions], yet the definition of restrainer does not require a ‘who’. The aramaic to english 1850 Murdock and Etheridge translations are more true because they leave out this english pronoun which does not appear in the greek text. In the immediate prior verse of 2Th2:6 the personal pronouns “autos”(he) and “heautou”(his) are used to represent the Evil One, so contextually if the following verse ‘restrainer’ were meant to include a personal pronoun, then “autos” or “heautou” would have been used. All this to say that the Greek does NOT indicate the restrainer is a living person(s), thus it cannot be the Holy Spirit or believers who have the Holy Spirit, or any Angel whether good or bad.

    The more central idea of a restrainer is an impersonal ‘What?’ and then because God himself sovereignly orders time, ‘When?’ comes into focus. Thus in the fullness of time, this comes to pass according to the edict of Creator God. Combining ‘What and When’ of 2Thess2:7-8a = simply “When the mystery is removed, then the Evil One underneath that restraining mystery cloud will be revealed.” Indeed the G2722 katechō “restrainer” of 2Th2:6 is a verb, thus the restrainer could possibly be only a ‘when’ (i.e. fullness of the appointed time), but not a ‘who’.

    2Th 2:1-9 But we entreat of you, my brethren, in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus the Messiah, and in respect to our being congregated unto him, v2 that ye be not soon agitated in your mind, nor be troubled, neither by word, nor by spirit, nor by letter, as coming from us, that lo, the day of our Lord is at hand. v3 Let no one deceive you in any way; because [that day will not come], unless there previously come a defection, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; v4 who is an opposer, and exalteth himself above all that is called God and Worshipful; so that he also sitteth in the temple of God, as a God, and displayeth himself, as if he were God. v5 Do ye not remember, that, when I was with you, I told you these things? v6 And now, ye know what hindereth his being manifested in his time. v7 For the mystery of the evil One already beginneth to be operative: and only, if that which now hindereth shall be taken from the midst; v8 then at length will that evil One be revealed; whom our Lord Jesus will consume by the breath of his mouth, and will bring to naught by the visibility of his advent. v9 For the coming of that [evil One], is the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders,

    ==================================================
    Marianne’s Paradox:
    ==================================================
    Marianne: “Either (1) we cannot leave until the antichrist is revealed (a), meaning we and the holy spirit are still here, (2) or the lawless one will be revealed after the restrainer is taken out of the way (b), meaning the holy spirit (along with us, since he indwells within us) is gone when he is revealed. Sigh, both of these cannot be true…so which is it? …so, is it a or b?”

    Marianne’s observation simplified:
    (a) [2Th2:1-3] …………. Apostasy —> Antichrist revealed —> Rapture
    (b) [2Th2:6-8] Restrainer removed —> Antichrist revealed
    (b) [2Th2:6-8] … (Saints Raptured) —> Antichrist revealed

    From the above, we can deduce that Apostasy = Restrainer Removal. Now a case could be made from this that the Apostasy is in fact a rapture of the saints, to later be followed by a second rapture, but when one looks as the contextual flow of the whole passage, the likelihood of two raptures is a bit of a stretch. It is highly unlikely that Paul’s teaching was intended to cloak two raptures in the subtlety of language. This leaves us with the most obvious conclusion that the Restrainer has nothing to do with 1Th4:16,17 whatsoever.

    1Th 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: v17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    If not rapture, then what is this ‘Restrainer Apostasy’? Let’s dig around a bit more. 2Th2:7 says the “mystery of G458(wickedness)” currently exits until it be removed, then verse8 says “G459(wicked)” is revealed and finally verse9 narrows our field of vision down to one individual angel, who is Satan. The contextual flow is that of a mysterious opaque veil, which prevents humanity from perceiving Satan as the primary source of wickedness.

    The word, G3466 “mustērion” (mystery) is used 27 times in the New Testament. Only 3 times is G3466 used in an evil context: 2Th2:7, Rev17:5, & Rev17:7. So we can reasonably conclude the 2Th2:7 ‘mystery of iniquity’ veil is somehow intertwined with Mystery Babylon, perhaps it is one-in-the-same.
    ==================================================
    Marianne’s Paradox – Expanded Commentary:
    ==================================================
    Rev17 is very interesting because we see 2 great evil entities working together as a happy team, one on top of the other. Toward the end of the chapter, the evil entity on the bottom bucks the other evil enemy off its back, and proceed to trample it to death and then burn it. (figuratively speaking) Since a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, WHY is Satan causing half of his strength to ruin the other half of his strength?? Well, scripture talks about a suicidal fire that comes from the center of Satan’s being to destroy his own works!

    Eze 28:18 By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have profaned your holy places; so I brought a fire from your midst; it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth, before the eyes of all who see you.
    Rev 17:16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
    =============================
    Now notice something here, the beast STILL HAS 10 HORNS when he burns her with fire! Then in Daniel we find that Antichrist arises only AFTER the number of horns on the beast has decreased. This suggests that the removal of the [mysterious covering evil empire] takes three horns with it. From the context of Dan7:8, we can reasonably deduce that the single Antichrist horn arises in-the-same-head from the cavity left behind from the three uprooted horns. Think about a new ADULT tooth coming up from below when a young child’s baby tooth on top falls out. Think of a rising to the surface ‘little horn’ after the restraining Babylonian “Mystery of Iniquity” is removed, i.e. Apostasy ‘baby tooth falls away.’

    Dan 7:7,8 After this I looked in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, frightening and terrifying, and very strong. And it had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the rest with its feet. And it was different from all the beasts before it; and it had TEN horns. v8 I was thinking about the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom THREE of the first horns were uprooted. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man(Antichrist), and a mouth speaking great things.
    =============================
    If this is all true, then how is Mystery manifest in such a way as to hide Satan underneath it? Isa28:15 tells us that lies and falsehood are capable of hiding a perpetrator such that he cannot be seen: the proverbial man-behind-the-curtain, the so called ‘Wizard of Oz’.

    Isa 28:15b … we have made lies our refuge, and we have hidden ourselves under falsehood,

    [Bunny Trail: Oz in Hebrew H5797 means ‘strength’ and is spelled the same as H5795 female goat. Thus the ‘Wizard of Oz’ could be symbolically related to the ‘Wizard of female http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat_of_Mendes ‘. Also, the Emerald City where the fictional story says Wizard lives, is the nickname for Seattle, Washington where Microsoft’s headquarters are, without whom the World Wide Web probably wouldn’t exist. Just some tangent trivia.]

    Notice how Nahum describes Nineveh very close to the way Isaiah describes Babylon. Now a performer Magician on stage does ‘magic’ tricks by a projecting a lying illusion considerably different than the truth, and so entertains his audience. Thus weavers of lying illusions, can prosper by deceiving others, not merely one person deceiving another, but groups deceiving groups. Subterfuge is a common tactic of war, so why not carry it into the corporate and political arena’s where war continues quietly? Subterfuge, like the subtleness of a wise serpent, masks the vicious quick thrust of the viper’s fangs. A snare is laid, and a victim is caught in its trap. By entrapment, victims are swallowed whole while the system continues on without anyone realizing there is a fat snake over there hiding in the shadows. Scripture indicates the skirt(veil) of confusion will be lifted away(apostasy), to reveal Satan underneath her skirt, whereby the ‘Mysterious Cloak of Confusion’ was empowered to deceive others unto parabolic monetary gain. Remember the woman does not stand on the beast, no she sits, and her long skirt flows down over her legs and covers the beast underneath. Thus it is difficult to discern the beast until she comes off of his back during the apostasy falling away of her. Try to step away from the idea that the whore is wearing an immodest mini-skirt, for the Lord in Isa6:1 wears one of these bridal trains and it is so large that it fills the temple! (The same word in Hebrew is used) It is worth noting here that a Jewish Congregation is called a Shul, literally the Lord’s bridal train covers them by this title. Of course the church is called the ekklēsia, but it is not a ‘coming out’ from being underneath the Lord’s protective skirt, his bridal train. But what then is ekklesia to ‘come out’ from? Rev18:4 says it nicely, ekklesia away from the skirt of Deliberate, Deceptive, Exploitive Confusion (both personal and entities which foster it)! Most of this can be accomplished by being both honest and nurturing, toward both others and ourselves.

    Rev 17:3b … woman SIT upon a scarlet colored beast …
    Nah 3:4,5 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the well favored harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that sells nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts. v5 Behold, I am against you, says the LORD of hosts; and I will discover your skirts H7757 (Shul: long train of robe hanging down) upon your face, and I will show the nations your nakedness, and the kingdoms your shame.
    Isa 47:1-5 Come down, and sit on the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground. …draw up your skirt, uncover your train H7640(shôbel flowing skirt, train) pass over the rivers. v3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, your shame shall be seen; I will take vengeance and I will not meet you as a man… you shall no more be called the mistress of kingdoms.
    Isa 6:1 …the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his trainH7757 (Shul: long train of robe hanging down) filled the temple.
    ==================================================
    Marianne’s Paradox Conclusion:
    ==================================================
    Confusion remains Marianne, because of two incorrect assumptions continue unchallenged:
    (assumption #1) Falling Away = Departure from the truth.
    (assumption #2) Restrainer = Holy Spirit
    It is further complicated by the lack of definition for: “mystery of lawlessness”
    Once you correctly define these three, then the answer to your paradox will become crystal clear.
    =========================
    (1) What could fall away besides truth?
    (2) What restrainer aside Holy Spirit?
    (3) What is the Mystery of Lawlessness which obstructs our visual perception of the Man of Lawlessness?
    =========================
    Marianne answered all three questions correctly, but she lacked precision sufficient to bring crystal clarity to her paradox.

    1. I don’t know = confusion = ‘Mystery Confusion’ = City of Lies visually obstructs the Father of Lies (John8:44)
    2. I don’t know = confusion = ‘Mystery Confusion’ = restrainer
    3. I don’t know = confusion = ‘Mystery Confusion’ = mystery of lawlessness

    Joh 8:44 Ye are of your FATHER the DEVIL, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a Murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaks a Lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a LIAR, and the FATHER of it.

    Marianne: “Either
    (1) we cannot leave until the antichrist is revealed
    ————– > Correct
    (a), meaning we and the holy spirit are still here,
    ————– > Correct
    (2) or the lawless one will be revealed after the restrainer is taken out of the way
    ————— > Correct
    (b), meaning the holy spirit (along with us, since he indwells within us) is gone when he is revealed.
    ————— > Faulty premise led to a Faulty Contradiction

    Sigh, both of these cannot be true…so which is it? …so, is it a or b?”

    Because of (1)Greek, (2)Logic, & (3)other examples of Scriptural Restrainers, the correct answer is “a”,
    ==================================================
    ==================================================
    Reply to Alienated:
    ==================================================
    Alienated: “I wouldn’t advise piquing everybody’s interest, only to drop the ball. (Look he threw a brick.) And I believe that Don’s summary that he posted last night, covered the “one taken, one left”, in that it has no bearing whatsoever to the rapture itself, and therefore is inconsequential to our belief, (and the belief of many), and that the rapture is still referenced within other scripture. So now we are just left with the “κατέχω” transliterated as “katechō”. So what do you believe it consists of?”

    (1) Sorry if it felt like a brick. Please forgive. You have worked very hard. Marianne has waited 8 months for an answer to her paradox. When I first read it I couldn’t understand what she was talking about, until reading her paradox slowly about 30 times and then looked at 2Th2:1-9 closely. And frankly, all of us have been taught our whole Christian lives that the 2Th2:3 Apostasy is a long-term gradual slipping away from truth. So all of us here are on equal, flat-footed ground. Apostasy CAN mean a slow slipping away, but this particular 2Th2:3 Apostasy is a lighting fast 60minHour (Rev18:10,17,19) bucking bronco event which knocks Old Mystery off onto the ground.

    (2) 1-taken-1-left: Thanks for the clarification. Just keep in mind ‘1-taken-1-left’ has been a major pillar of the Pre-Trib doctrine since its beginning. Now that “one taken, one left” is gone, and the “Holy Spirit Restrainer Theory” is in serious trouble, what is left besides wrath-avoidance to keep Pre-Trib theology alive? (See my comments to Don about Rev4:1)

    (3) G2722 katechō “restrainer” of 2Th2:6 (See explanation of question #7 above.)

    (4) You have listed many verses with regard to ‘a and b’. In time, maybe we could work thru some of them together? Thoughts?

    (5) You don’t want to offer a guess as to what ½ hour might mean?
    ==================================================
    ==================================================
    Reply to Don:
    ==================================================
    (1) Weeds (taken) and the Wheat (left):
    (1a) “apples to apples” I agree 98% (2 StdDev), with the remaining 2% being Mat13:48 in reverse order.
    (1b) “tell the harvesters (his angels) to go and “First collect the weeds” is not ‘Wheat Rapture’ 100% agree.

    (2) Where there is a dead body the eagles will gather:
    (2a) “gathered together by those three evil spirits” differs from “At the same time, the harvesters” 100% agree.
    (2b) “going throughout the earth collecting those weeds (One taken) and will bring them back to where” 100% agree.
    (2c) 45’s Problem: Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    “two people are asleep inside a locked up house, and yet only one is taken. Sure sounds like a rapture-like event to me.” Luk17:34 implies that there is not merely angelic persuasive speech to gather the tares, but rather that there is a supernatural harpazō which selectively extracts one person out of bed (and Scotty beams [via angelic powered, human teleportation] them into Megiddo Valley), leaving the other behind in bed only to wake up peacefully bewildered, without their bed partner…
    Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away G0726 (harpazō “to snatch out or away”) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

    (3) “when someone changes their stand on some biblical truth, that now everyone else is wrong” You and I are in agreement with most things. There are many people on both sides of fence regarding exactly when the rapture will occur with respect to the Great Tribulation, but both still believe in a rapture. It takes humility to ‘cut one’s losses’ admitting defeat to a previously held cherished belief. I have done this and am willing to do it again. I’m still open to scriptural evidence pointing me back to the other side of the fence, but for the moment it looks to me like the evidence is heavily skewed to the Post-Tribulation Rapture side of the Bell Curve.

    (4) Don: “seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as God’s wrath” 100% agree. Go to (8) —- >

    (5) Don: ““Ekklesia” translated as “Church” is mentioned over and over again from Revelation chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3 and never used again within the narrative. After the end of chapter 3, from then on, the word “Hagios” translate as “Saints” is used to describe believers and that because the Ekklesia that is, the church is gone.”

    (5a) Don: “end of chapter 3, from then on, the word ‘Hagios’”
    No, (1)Saints, (2)Seed, (3)MyPeople and (4)Ekklesia are used from Rev4:1 onward to describe the people of God.
    Rev 12:17 …SEED, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Rev 18:4 …Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, … that you may not receive of her plagues.
    Rev 22:16a I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches(G1577 ekklesia) ….

    (5b) Don: “the church (ekklesia) is gone”
    You make a very good point here Don. When the Hos11:10 Lion ROARS, the oil-filled obedient leave Rev18:4 Babylon and go into (Isa26:20, Rev12:14) hiding to be [Eze37:21, Isa49:21-23, Rut1:16,17, Mat22:10] joined to Judah, where they will be protected [Rut4:7, Ps60:8a, Ps108:9a, Dan11:41b] upon the Mat16:18 ROCK where the word ekklesia occurred for the first time in the Bible. You see, just like Luk23:38 labeled Jesus in three languages, this H5554,G4073 ROCK upon which the ekklesia is built is called: Petra(Greek), Al-Batra(Arabic), & Selah(Hebrew). The ancient city of Petra is in both the Old and New Testament. Thus when Jesus was talking to Peter(G4073 male gender) he said his church(ekklesia G1577 female gender) would be built upon the Rock(Petra G4073 female gender), Jesus was prophesying about a future church in 1260 days of hiding in the Mic2:12 singular Bozrah H1223 sheepfold headquartered in Petra, Jordan. While the papacy uses Mat16:18 with earnest, Jesus was talking about a time in the distant future (now today) when his whole group of faithful sheep would gather together into one single flock in the Last Days in one single place on earth, out away from the Rev18:4 punishment. And once gathered into that Mat13:30 wheat barn (Mat13:48 good fish vessels), the cumulative FORCE of the Holy Spirit alive in that assembly will build the church the way Jesus has always wanted it to be built, completely full of Love, Power, and a Sound Mind. People think of those in hiding as little chickens afraid of everything that moves, fleeing physical death only to do nothing for 3.5 years. This might be true for some without Mat22:12 wedding garments, but those who are full of Oil will explode in vibrancy of fellowship and prayer unlike anything any modern day church can imagine! Kind of like the Acts 2 church, but on a greater order of magnitude. Then on the Dan12:12 1335th day, the final Trumpet is blown and the Rev12:14 woman in the wilderness will be 1Cor15:52 raptured in the twinkling of an eye along side the resurrection of the dead, as Jesus Isa63:1 makes his way from Petra Edom unto the valley of Megiddo to meet with his enemies, per Rev19. It is difficult to say whose Isa63:3 blood will be spattered on Jesus’ clothes first, but my unqualified guess is that it will be the blood of those without a Mat22:12 wedding garment who pretended to be sheep just to save their skin for a little longer, but in actually are goats mixed in among the flock who did not ‘turn golden’ during the Post-Tribulation Rapture.

    (6) Don: “Later” begins in Rev.4:1 by the statement: “Come up here and I will show you what must take place ‘After this’
    (6a) You made a wonderful observation here Don that I have never considered! Merging Rev4:1 with 1The4:16 by reason of ‘Trumpet’ would be plausible, but Paul clarifies in 1Cor15:52 what he left out in 1Th4:16. Because the rapture happens at the Last Trumpet, it seems fitting that we should apply it to John only when steps out of Heaven after the last trumpet, back down into his earthly Patmos dwelling, to right down the whole book. You may still be on to something here. What is your take on the very first talking trumpet John hears in Rev1:10 on the Sabbath? Maybe we will be raptured on the Sabbath because it say; “I came to be in the Spirit,” meaning ‘I was Raptured’. This might really be something because the Last Trumpet Post-Tribulation Rapture marks the beginning of the Millennial reign of Christ (The Great Sabbath).
    Rev 1:10 I came to be in the Spirit in the Lord’s day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things.

    (7) Don: “the seals, trumpets and bowls are worse than just being gathered at Armageddon” I agree 90%
    (7a) Armageddon as the Rev14:19 second sickle at Tribulation end will be a “Power Word Kill” unlikely to last longer than a moment. The Rev14:16 first sickle at Tribulation beginning will be a 60minHour “Nuclear Fire Kill” unlikely to last longer than a moment. Everyone in between (except the woman hiding in Petra) will suffer massively as the seals, trumpets, and bowls are rolled out. For the billion plus who die in the first sickle 60minHour, there is negligible suffering. So during a quick nuclear kill what happens? A mass of souls are instantly (10,000 degrees vaporized) transformed in the ‘twinkling of an eye’, caught up in the air (of a 500mph rising mushroom cloud of debris), to forever be with the Lord! Quick, painless, blink of an eye entry into heaven. Sounds like a wrath-avoiding Pre-Tribulation rapture to me. How so? Because these dying first at the front end of the Tribulation never have to endure the Great Tribulation torturous daily wrath, nor are they tempted to turn their back on Jesus and take the 666 Mark just to buy food enough to survive. Either one sounds like a sweet deal to me! That is, to either die in this first sickle Nuclear Rapture, or to die(be transformed) at the Last Trumpet just prior to the second sickle Armageddon holocaust. I would take either one, but personally prefer the second because though more difficult, it would be far more interesting. Also, pursuing Aliyah to the Rev18:4 command which leads to the Last Trumpet Rapture is a simple act of obedience. Regarding the acceptability of non-Jews with the Rev12 woman, just keep Mat22:10 in mind which says he invites even the BAD to the wedding feast, because there are not enough guests, the city was Mat22:7 burned by the King. Remember that the holder of the Rev14:14 first sickle looks “LIKE” the Son of man. Since seeing Jesus is the see the Father, Father King (Avinu Malkeinu) is the one swinging this first sickle of Mat22:7 (man-made) nuclear burning the Rev18 City of Confusion. But regarding leaving, everyone seems to have their ears intent on hearing a Trumpet, when in wisdom they should be listening for a Lion’s Roar. This Lion’s Roar cry has not happened yet, but it will not so very long from now. It is said that a lion’s roar can be heard 5 miles away. If he roared from your back yard, you would definitely hear it inside the house AND FEEL IT as the walls continue to reverberate. It might be worth asking, “When is midnight exactly??”
    Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a CRY made, Behold, the bridegroom comes! Go out to meet him.
    Hos 11:10,11 They shall walk after Jehovah; He shall roar like a lion. When He shall roar, then the sons shall TREMBLE from the west. v11 They shall tremble like a bird out of Egypt, and like a dove out of the land of Assyria. And I will place them in their houses, says Jehovah.

    (8) Wrath: “God is not going to build his church, which consists of those who have repented and who believe in and are waiting for his Son and then is going to pour out his wrath upon them!” I agree 100%. This is why Rev18:4 so sternly warns Christians (who are waiting for his Son) to leave “or else.” Remember that Lot had it within his power to either ‘look back’ as his wife did, or return to Sodom. If Lot told the angels flatly, “I just don’t want to leave, no matter even if you are going to destroy the city!,” don’t you think the angels would have granted Lot his true heart’s desire??
    (8a) If all Christians are not appointed to wrath, then why do we need to watch and pray?? What does ‘accounted worthy to escape’ mean if all Christians will raptured, even against their will? Especially since Jesus in this passage is not talking to anyone, except believing Christians.
    Luk 21:35,36 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. v36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
    1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath(i.e. Eternal Hell), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Rev 16:1b …seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

    (8b) Even though 1Th5:9 seems to be talking about the Wrath of Hell, we can look at the Great Tribulation vials which are said to be the ‘Wrath of God’ poured out. I do not have a problem with throwing the Seal and Trumpets in there with Wrathful vials because the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are all three overlaying each other, i.e. S1, T1, B1; then S2, T2, B2; then S3… God’s trinity nature is capable of doing coordinated activity thru the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously, thus the same with the Seals, Trumpets, and Wrathful Vials.

    (9) Don: “Even in 1 Thessalonians Paul lists the chronology of events,”
    Dan 8:25c … by peace shall destroy many: …
    1Th 5:2,3 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. v3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    (9a) What can be done besides prayer, to prepare for the thief in the night? Pursue prophetic understanding.
    Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets.
    Jer 23:20c … in later days you shall understand it perfectly.
    Jer 30:24c … In the latter days you shall understand it.

    (9b) Don: “we are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise”
    Are you saying Don I can behave like the people of Noah’s day, and because I’m a Christian I will automatically go up in the rapture even if its against my will, perhaps because I just got married and am too busy with other cares of this life? Will I be raptured no matter what? I mean, exactly how far can I push God and expect his full grace covering? Satan tempted Jesus with this in the wilderness, and Jesus replied don’t put the Lord to a foolish test. But I ask, why is it so foolish if there is going to be a Pre-Tribulation rapture that takes me irregardless of how much oil I have in my lamp? I mean keeping oil in there is HARD work, so why do it if it makes no difference?? And if it does make a difference, then exactly how is my question.

    (9c) The root of the Thief-in-the-Night travels backward to Pro7:19 seduction, and then back further still to Ps81:3 where special New(yet Full) moon [a contradiction of sorts] occurs representing a holy feast day, and there is a trumpet blown. This may or may not occur on an actual Israel feast day. I don’t know. But I do know that Ps81:3 is the root verse from which Jesus was drawing, when he said “Watch,” because H3677 only appears twice in the whole Tanach.
    Mar 13:32-37 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. v33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. v34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a FAR JOURNEY, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. v35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: v36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. v37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
    Pro 7:19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a LONG JOURNEY: v20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed(H3677 “full moon”). v21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
    Psa 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed(H3677 “full moon”), on our solemn feast day.

    (10) Don: “Since God’s wrath will include the entire earth, we cannot just be rescued out of a city by angels or put in a boat in order to escape and therefore, we must be removed”
    Though I answered this in number (5), Isaiah26:20 also seems to be talking about a place on earth where the Rev12 woman hides safely for 3.5 years from INDIGNATION (i.e. wrath) passing over (Pesach).
    Isa 26:20,21 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. v21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
    ==================================================
    Brevity: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” – Albert Einstein, a Jew

    You all did your homework, and sincerely hope you believe I did mine.
    Would not ask you to do something I’m not willing to do myself.
    Thanks in advance for your future dialogs.

    45
    ==================================================

    • 45

      Confusion remains.
      -

      That was an elaborate commentary of issues that did not address the question of who/what is the restrainer.

      -
      the firmament in heaven did not point me there, neither did the woman about to be pregnant, etc.
      -
      These were interesting in their commonality but none of them brought one to the same answer.
      -

      You gave 7 different answers, when I expected all 7 to point to the one answer.

      -
      -
      (1) What could fall away besides truth?

      you said apostasy, which is the same thing as falling from the truth.
      -
      -
      (2) What restrainer aside Holy Spirit?

      still don’t know, god is not going to remove satan or wickedness before the tribulation
      -
      -
      (3) What is the Mystery of Lawlessness which obstructs our visual perception of the Man of Lawlessness?

      still confused you call it mystery of confusion which is just as confusing as my original question.

    • God uses templates regularly in scripture. 7 questions were an attempt to collate restrainer templates. The heaven firmament removal matches endtimes “As in the days of Noah”. The infertility template similarly matches a precursor to the birth of the fruitful 1000yr reign of Christ. Both of these point to the removal(apostacy) of that which impedes(restrains) so that God’s plans continue without restraint.

      (1) Thayer Lexicon: Apostasia G646, G647 a falling away, defection, forsake, like unto divorce. Acts21:21 uses the exact same G646 as in 1Th2:3, to describe Paul’s Apostasy away from Moses’ teaching of physical circumcision. If Apostasy requires departure from truth, then Paul in Acts21:21 was guilty of teaching lies.

      (2) I said nothing of God removing Satan or wickedness before the tribulation.

      (3) I said the following:
      [The word, G3466 “mustērion” (mystery) is used 27 times in the New Testament. Only 3 times is G3466 used in an evil context: 2Th2:7, Rev17:5, & Rev17:7. So we can reasonably conclude the 2Th2:7 ‘mystery of iniquity’ veil is somehow intertwined with Mystery Babylon, perhaps it is one-in-the-same.]

      The word Babylon literally means “Confusion”. The phrase ‘Mystery Babylon’ is synonymous with ‘Mystery Confusion’ which is the Mysterious(confusing) Veil of Lawlessness which hides the Lawless one underneath.

      • Hi 45,

        Regarding the subject of the restrainer, that is, “the one who now holds back,” he is specifically referred to as such. These other so-called events of restraining that you have presented are not specifically indentified as such. Whether one wants to use the phrase “Restrainer” or “He who now holds back,” what we do know is that this is an individual being referred to as “He” and “The one.” As the Scripture states, this “He” is holding back sin from its full impact in the world and “He” is also holding back that man of lawlessness from being revealed until his appointed time, which is still future.

        Some have suggested that this one who continues to hold back could be Micheal the archangel, but with no disrispect to Michael, I believe that this restrainer would be better identified as the Holy Spirit due to the gravity of what he is holding back. I wish Paul would have been more specific in some of the things that he wrote of, but I’m sure that he wrote it exactly the way that the Holy Spirit wanted him to. Getting back to the issue, the point is that, none of those other events are specifically referred to as restrainers or ones who now hold back. The curtain separating the Holy of Holies where God appeared on the mercy seat between the two Cherubims, it being torn in two from top to bottom, was essentially God saying, “Now you have access to me.”

        The law was never specified as a restrainer. Paul states that the law was given because of trespasses. During that time faith was still a requirement along with the observance of the law. When Jesus came that changed to “saved by grace through faith apart from observing the law,” for we are trusting soley on his shed blood for atonement without works and that so that no one can boast or take credit. Anyone who does, as Paul said, “No one will be justified by observing the law of Moses.”

        It seems as though you have been diligent in studying the word of God, which is definitely spiritually profitable and what we all should be doing, but to use your own advice, I’d say, keep it simple and straight to the point.

        • Did I not explain clearly how the Greek text rules out the possibility of the restrainer being a personal pronoun “he”?

          • I’m sorry, but the context does not support this, but in fact shows this to be a someone. You can’t ignore the “He” and “The one”.

            • Let’s look at how the Interlinear has it:

              “And now that which restrains you know for – to be revealed him in – his time. The indeed mystery already is working – of lawlessness only [there is] he who restrains at present until out of [the] midst he be [gone].”

              The restrainer sounds like an individual to me.

              • Also, I believe that the translators would have made a point of showing that this was not speaking of an individual, yet every major translation interprets that restrainer as an individual as can be seen below: (Pay special attention to the International Standard Version)

                For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

                New Living Translation (©2007)
                For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.

                English Standard Version (©2001)
                For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

                New American Standard Bible (©1995)
                For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

                King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
                For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

                International Standard Version (©2008)
                For the secret of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.

                Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
                The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst;

                GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
                The mystery of this sin is already at work. But it cannot work effectively until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.

                King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
                For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way.

                American King James Version
                For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.

                American Standard Version
                For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

                Douay-Rheims Bible
                For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.

                Darby Bible Translation
                For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only there is he who restrains now until he be gone,

                English Revised Version
                For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

                Webster’s Bible Translation
                For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.

                Weymouth New Testament
                For lawlessness is already at work in secret; but only until the man who is now exercising a restraining influence is removed,

                World English Bible
                For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.

                Young’s Literal Translation
                for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder — till he may be out of the way,

  71. Hello 45 and all,

    I would have to agree with Marianne, as that post was way too confusing. There are many assumptons contained within and with no Scriptural support. It would better to address one or two issues at a time and back those up directly with Scripture. For example, you claim that the resurrection and catching away takes place due to a nuclear explosion which vaporizes all Christians and that is how they meet the Lord in the air. So much for “Therefore comfort one another with these words!” This event is supposed to be our great hope, the appearing of our Lord, a blessed event. I assure that we are not going to be vaporized by a nuclear bomb freeing us from our bodies so that we can meet him in the air. I can’t imagine Jesus saying, “I told you that I’d get you here in the air, but I didn’t say it’d be pretty.”

    You said:
    “Don: “we are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise” Are you saying Don I can behave like the people of Noah’s day, and because I’m a Christian I will automatically go up in the rapture even if its against my will, perhaps because I just got married and am too busy with other cares of this life? Will I be raptured no matter what? I mean, exactly how far can I push God and expect his full grace covering?

    Rebut:
    First, there is nothing in my post that would infer that we are free to sin because we are Christians. In fact, anyone who has that attitude does not have the Spirit of God dwelling in him/her.

    The point is, as I said, that the unrighteous where taken in the flood and those who are taken at the end of the age are being compared to them and therefore, that “One taken” cannot be and event for the righteous. God is not going to use an advent regarding the wicked to relate a future advent of the righteous.

    And second, no one will automatically be caught up against their will. Jesus said, “I am the vine and you are the branches. Unless you remain in me you cannot bare fruit. Any branch that does not remain in me is like a branch that is broken off and thrown into the fire. If we are claiming to be in Christ, yet we are wilfulling living according to the flesh, then we have wandered away from the truth, we are not remaining in the faith. For God cannot be mocked, whatever a man sows to that is what he will reap. If he sows to the flesh he will reap destruction, if he sows to the Spirit eternal life. A person is not going to put one over on God by claiming to be in Christ while wilfully living after the sinful nature. He is the One who searches the hearts and the minds, remember?.

    Thirdly, we are covered by God’s grace through faith. If we are wilfully living after the sinful nature, then we are not having faith, we are not keeping our part of the covenant. There is a difference between one who is claiming to be in Christ, but is wilfully living according to the sinful nature. That person is not in agreement with God about his sins nor does he have a repentant heart. On the other hand, a true Christian, though a sinner, is wrestling with the flesh to bring his body of flesh under control. “If any man says he has no sin, he is a liar and the true is not in him.” When we received Christ, we became duel-natured, for the flesh wars against the Spririt and the Spirit against the flesh for they are contrary to one another. The unbeliever has one nature and that is to fulfill the desires of his flesh. When we as Christians sin, we are greived in our spirits and that because we have sinned against God and our desire is to go directly to God immediately and confess in the name of our Lord Jesus, because we know that he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Does that mean that since we know that he will forgive us that we delibritly sin, no! We fight to overcome and to keep ourselves from the acts of the sinful nature. God knows our hearts.

    Regarding,“we are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise” We are not in darkness because we who believe waiting for his appearing according to his promise and as we wait and watch, we are continuing in prayer, studying his word and continuing to wrestle with the sinful nature, attempting to walk as he walked, not as the world walks. The world gets up every day and has not thought of God nor do they fear God, for if they did, they would seek him out. We however believe in his promise to return and so we do all that we can to be found spotless, remember, we are saved by grace through faith and and this not of our own doing and therefore, it is God who justifies the wicked.

    If you want to fellowship about these things, then let’s approach the individual subjects one at a time Scripturally, because the other post was too busy and very confusing.

    • Hi to Don and all,
      (1) Blessed Hope: We comfort one another with hope of a post tribulation rapture. The non-scriptural pre-tribulation rapture is not the hope we are promised. Whatever vaporization is to occur will include both Christians and non-Christians. My purpose for going into an in depth explanation was to detail how God answers our deepest hearts wish in unexpected ways. Many Christians are so afraid of being tempted into eternal damnation by reason of taking the mark, that they would rather die than live in such a stressful environment as the 3.5 years. For Christians who are alive at that time, they will definately need something to look forward to at the end of the 1335th day. But technically speaking, the ‘Blessed Hope’ includes the resurrection of the dead from all the ages, so it is not merely about rapturing those who are alive. It remains a blessed hope because those who have already died in Christ (as I am typing this text) still retain this hope of eminent resurrection with Christ on that day.

      “I told you that I’d get you here in the air, but I didn’t say it’d be pretty.”
      I agree with you Don that Jesus did not say this. Nuclear Rapture will be the inevitable by product of false teaching, while the true scriptural Rapture will not take place until another 3.5 years later.

      (2) & (3) I dug into you a little bit to address a very serious point, coupled with Pre-Tribulation theology is a predominant carefree belief that one can depart from the true vine and still remain under the blessing of God. This alone should throw a red flag up as to the legitimacy of the Pre-Trib doctrine. I am NOT saying this is true of you Don! I like you and the things you say, mostly. Really!

      (4) Why would “take us by surprise” make any difference with regard to a Christian during the Rapture? Will every Christian go or not? What defines what a ‘rapturable’ Christian is?
      =========================================================
      My post WAS “too busy” as you say, for I wanted to lay out a foundation of my perspective so as to bypass needless Q & A in future dialogs.

      How about if we start with just #(4) here?

      Thank you Don for your willingness to discuss, for it is difficult subject matter that too few desire to grapple with. I appreciate your input.

      Blessings.

      • HI 45 and all,

        You said:
        “Whatever vaporization is to occur will include both Christians and non-Christians.”

        Rebut:
        First of all, where did you get the idea that we are going to be vaporized? and two, where did you get the idea that all people will be caught up? The resurrection and catching away is specific to the faithful in Christ and does not include the unbeliever. As proof of this, please take note of the following verse:

        “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”

        Notice that those who are resurrected from the grave are mentioned as “The dead in Christ” and not the dead in general. In fact, Scripture states that the “Rest of the dead,” that is, those who died without Christ, will not rise until the thousand years have ended (Rev.20:5). All who die without the Lord, their bodies will remain in their graves, until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, where at which time they will be resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15). These are those of whom the second death has power over (Rev.20:6). And anyones name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

        Now regarding those who are still alive at the time that the resurrection takes place, they are living Christians who are simply changed on the spot and caught up. The word resurrected translated from the Greek “Anastasis” is defined as “To stand up again,” that is, in ones original body, Jesus being the example. For those who are resurrected and those who are changed and caught up, it will be in the same body that we are in, else why bother with the grave? The difference will be that those bodies that were sown as perishable, that is, decayable, will be raised undecayable. This body that is sown in dishonor (sinful nature) will be raised a glorified body. This body that is sown in weakness will be raised in power. We must go from mortal to immortal, for the sinful nature cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

        The resurrected body is referred to as a spiritual body, yet, just as Jesus had and has, we will be resurrected and changed in tangible bodies. For when he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors they thought that he was a spirit, but the Lord comforted them saying, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Therefore, when the resurrection and the catching away takes place, we will not be vaporized, but when he appears we will be like him.

        You said:
        “For Christians who are alive at that time, they will definately need something to look forward to at the end of the 1335th day.”

        If by Christians you mean the church, we will have been resurrected and caught up long before the end of the age, for we are the ones following the Lord down from heaven on white horses, dressed in fine linen white and clean, the bride, as shown in Rev.17:14,19:8,14. How can we be waiting for the 1335th day when we will be the ones returning to the earth with him? When the resurrection and catching away takes place, then the promise that the Lord made to his disciple, which extends to us in John 14:1-3 will be fulfilled which says:

        “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

        Therefore, we must go back to the Father’s house to be where Christ is according to his promise. At the end of the age, we return with him on white horses.

        You said:
        “Nuclear rapture will be the inevitible by-product of false teaching, while the true Scriptural rapture will not take place until another 3.5 years later.”

        Rebut:
        None of the things that you mentioned above are supported by Scripture. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that refers to the christians being vaporized by nuclear bombing, nor is there anything written regarding Christians resurrecting at the end of that last 3 1/2 years. If you are referring to the those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, these are those great tribulation (saints) who will have been beheaded because of their testimony for Christ and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor will have received his mark. This group are not believers belonging to the church, but are those saints who will come out of the great tribulation period. Again, in order for this to be the church in Rev.20:4, this would put the entire church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the full wrath of God.

        You said:
        “I dug into you to address this very serious point, coupled with pre-tribulation theology is a predominately carefree belief that one can depart from the true vine and one can still remain under the blessing of God.

        Rebut:
        I can garuntee you that I am not one who thinks this way nor does any true Christian. We fear God knowing that we are saved by grace through faith, it is the gift of God and therefore, we must continue in Chirst, being transformed into his image as we go from faith to faith. As I said in an earlier post, anyone who has the attitude that you described above, does not have the Spirit of God dwelling in him/her and are not true Christians. There are those who call them selves Christians who are wilfully engaged in sexual immorality with their eyes set on everyting else of the flesh but these people are deceiving themselves if they think that they can continue in the acts of the sinful nature and reap eternal life and there are many who do unfortunately. One is not a Christian because he claims to be, but by the way he lives his life, by his fruit. Jesus said it, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will inherit the kingdom of God.”

        I want you to know that I am not purposely being against you, but merely contending for the truth of God’s word. There are many subjects that you are bringing up that are foreign to me. If you post something that is supported by Scripture, then of course I will definitely be in agreement with you. So tell me, have you arrived at these interpretations by your own studies or by adopting teahcings from websites and other writers?

        I will tell you this, my faith is not based on when the resurrection and catching away takes place, but on Christ. For the sake of this discussion, if that means that we, the church, are to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, (and I say this for your benefit) then my prayer would be the same that I always pray and that is that God would give me a spirit that would not love life so much as to shrink away from death while keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. We should all have the same spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo.

        • Could write an equal length reply to all you’ve written (mostly in agreement with you), but for expediency sake will momentarily this question of yours:

          “…your own studies or by adopting teachings…” ?

          Just as the 7 questions were extemporaneous, most of my reasonings I attribute to Holy Spirit inspiration, who has drawn my eyes to ‘stumble upon’ key points which would otherwise be invisible, conclusions assimilated from an eclectic mixture of (1) thousands of hours with the Word, (2) logic, and (3) non-scripture data.

          The words from your lips Don testify of the abundance in your heart, your Love of the Truth. You and I are not so different. : )

          45

        • I regularly pray Ps23:3;
          “Take me by the hand Heavenly Father and lead me in the path of righteousness, for I bear your name, and do not wish to disgrace your name, therefore for your name’s sake I submit my ways to you and expectantly trust your guiding hand to sovereignly cause my ways to glorify you.”

          Actually, I only pray an abbreviated form of this, but expand it for clarification sake to you who read this post.

          Ps 23:3b …leads me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

          45

  72. Hi 45,

    First, regarding the Greek “κατέχω” transliterated as “katechō”, and translated into English as a variety of of words that within their definition, would denote some type of a “force” that is holding something back.

    You propose within your first (1st.) question, (and subsequent answer) that this same “restrainer” is the “firmament”.

    Response;

    The firmament that is expressed in Genesis 1 would be Earths “atmosphere” and the above “heavens”, and I find it difficult to understand how anyone who was on the Earth after both of these would be taken away, would relax, kick their feet up in contentment and say, “peace and safety”. As well, though you utilized Genesis 7:11 as being supportive to your premise, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with the atmosphere and heavens being removed, therefore logically, the “firmament” can not be associated with or as, the “restrainer”.
    (Not to get off topic, but in respects to your theory as to the firmament also being the cause and effect enablement for Adam to have his extended life span. Though you say that there is only one biblically credible and scientifically plausible explanation to permit such longevity, wouldn’t it be far more likely, (other than for the necessity of the atmosphere providing oxygen, shelter from various radiations etc.) that the “key reason” for that longevity would have to do with “Genetics”?
    Adam being the perfection of the creation of man, and then taking into account the generation after generation of inbreeding as being the cause and effect of genetic DNA degradation, which has lead us to the current life span that we have today?)
    Nonetheless……

    Your second question, “What restrainer was taken out of the way during the crucifixion? This is written about in at least six places in the New Testament and many times in the Old Testament.”

    Response;

    I would agree that when Yeshua died on the cross, the veil was rent asunder, and that prior to to this miraculous event, the veil itself was a form of separation and restraint. However the point of this happening was two (2) fold in meaning.

    1) Initially the veil itself was a physical necessity. It was not only a tangible partition which demonstrated and was symbolic of the spiritual separation between a Holy God and man, it also was a barrier which prevented death if inadvertently entered into without first performing the specific cleansing rituals that were specified, or on the non specific day to do so. The day of course being Yom Kippur.

    2) What is more significant than the veil being torn to me, was the fact that fifty (50) days later it was replaced with the Living Spirit. That the separation between God and man had been eliminated for those that believed on Yeshua as His Son. Though it still exists in a spiritual sense for those that do not as yet believe.

    This though tends to lend credibility to the Holy Spirit as being a significant component to what it is that does “restrain”, rather than being contrary to that particular theory.

    Within your third question consisting of, “Whenever a restrainer is removed out of the way, what physical phenomena ALWAYS occurs on the object from whom the restrainer is taken away?”, you propose the answer to be that of being “broken”, and applied that aspect of brokenness to the force that had been the “restrainer”.

    Response;

    Where from utilizing scripture, did you possibly come up with the premise that the “restrainer” is somehow broken after it has fulfilled that particular mission? In my opinion the rest of your explanation that you provided to support your proposal regarding that question, was simply speculative, and a rudimentary example of poor systematic theology.
    Though Marianne had provided the word “Impact” earlier, I would like to add a third possibility to the mix, that being “Motion”.
    I believe that there is far more likely hood that something that restrains prevents motion, (or in maintaining the context of the topic of discussion), a proceeding of a particular plan, or course of action.

    Your fourth (4th.) question, “What painful restrainer removing ordinance did God establish with Abraham unto every single Christian?”

    Response;
    Well clearly that whole question is inaccurate in itself for many reasons. Abraham wasn’t Christian. It is not necessary whatsoever for Christian males to be circumcised. It was an outward sign for an established Covenant, etc. etc.
    To somehow associate the foreskin of a particular member of male anatomy as having relevance to the topic of discussion is in my opinion, not relevant whatsoever. Your comments regarding the circumcision of the heart are critical to any follower of Yeshua, yet they are not specific to the subject of debate.

    Question five (5), “What restrainer is painfully removed repetitively before any woman can become pregnant?”

    Response;

    Huh?
    You know that sometimes possessing a greater than average intellect can in itself, be detrimental. I acknowledge your intellect, yet would state that the old acronym “KISS”, can at times, be more beneficial. God wishes for His word to be understood by all who would seek Him. Granted He may utilize those He has blessed with that higher intellect, and reveal some finer points of His word so that they may receive clarity regarding them, however in my opinion you are/ have gone WAY too deep with this one.
    All of the Thessalonians understood what Paul was talking about within these verses, and being common and uneducated, I’m sure that it wasn’t as convoluted as to what you have proposed here within your commentary.

    Question six (6) was, “Why is it necessary for the Revelation 13 Beast to suffer a head wound that nearly kills it?”

    Response;

    Within your explanation, (and in providing the scripture of Daniel 7:7,8.) I personally don’t see the association to that of the same restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6. I believe that those verses of Daniel explain the process of what is to transpire, after the restrainer of 2 Thess. 2:6. has been removed, therefore allowing the next step to take place.

    Question seven (7), “What two key interrogatives are common to every restrainer removal?”

    Response;

    For me, the commentary that you provided here was the most interesting, and I believe the only relevant aspect to the topic of discussion, (though it didn’t necessarily answer that of your question). However, though interesting and informative, it in itself was not conclusive. The fact that the Greek “αὐτός” or “autos” is not utilized could very well be implying that it is referring to that of the Holy Spirit, as is the perspective of most scholars and the most commonly believed.
    When you propose the following, “Indeed the G2722 katechō “restrainer” of 2 Thess. 2:6. is a verb, thus the restrainer could possibly be only a ‘when’ (i.e. fullness of the appointed time), but not a ‘who’.” I reply with why?
    Certainly I would agree that something that would restrain could indeed be an inanimate object, such as handcuffs for example. However I can, in taking action utilize the verb itself and restrain something by holding it in place, and I am not inanimate.

    I believe that we are back at the proverbial “square one”, and that nothing definitive was established.

    Conclusion;

    Unfortunately, in my opinion, a resounding “THUD” was heard throughout the gymnasium, rather than the “SWISH” of victory and success. In keeping with the theme of Sport, it was reminiscent to that of, “Casey at the bat”.
    However, should you feel embarrassed? I would say “No” to that.
    We are all on this confusing journey to uncover the truth in God’s word. Sometimes we get it right, and other times we may get off track. None of us are perfect. Do I happen to still respect what you have to provide and contribute to that journey?
    Most definitely. Though that doesn’t necessarily mean that I will always agree with you. As others haven’t always agreed with me either. (Huh? Imagine that?)

    I do think however, that this topic is pivotal to our understanding. If we can somehow reach a consensus through the Spirit, as to who or what this “restrainer” is, (or all of 2 Thess. itself for that matter), it will be a significant achievement.

    To all Be Blessed.

    • maybe the restrainer is just time itself.

    • Marianne’s Logic Mapped Out:
      (a) [2Th2:1-3] …………. Apostasy —> Antichrist revealed —> Rapture
      (b) [2Th2:6-8] Restrainer removed —> Antichrist revealed
      (b) [2Th2:6-8] … (Saints Raptured) —> Antichrist revealed
      ==========================================================
      Alienated,
      Square 1: Up until this week there remained question by some that Marianne’s observation of a contradiction in 2Th2 was just a mirage(flawed) in the vast desert of rapture theology debate.

      Square 2: We now have established Marianne’s logic was no mere mirage.

      Square 3: We also now know a legitimate resolution ‘can’ exist with the Post-Tribulation Rapture viewpoint.

      Square 4: We also now know a legitimate resolution with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture viewpoint is under deeper scrutiny by reason of 2Th2:6,7 Greek text noun ambiguity.

      Square 5: I would submit now that we have arrived at square 5, which says that the Pre-Trib rapture viewpoint offers no possible resolution to the 2Th2:1-3 Post-Trib rapture layout.

      • Hi 45,

        Well in my opinion, this form of square dancing has us going around in circles.
        I believe that Marianne’s question has not being sufficiently answered. Though you expressed your opinion regarding the matter, not one of the participants within the discussion fully agreed with it, or felt that a viable solution had been presented.
        Therefore the comments above where you have made the statements that start with the pronoun “We” would have been more accurately represented if you had instead substituted the subjective personal pronoun “I”.

        In my opinion, the belief in the Post Tribulation scenario is the most flawed out of the three possibilities.
        The Post-Tribulation view virtually has those that are raptured acting like a yo-yo, arising into the air, only to return immediately to the earth. This simply leaves no time whatsoever for the Bema seat judgement, or the marriage supper of the Lamb.

        I would also like to state something regarding the Spirit. To me there is nothing more arrogant than an individual who will utilize the Spirit to be the substantializing factor to legitimize their interpretation. No matter how it is worded, it is suggesting that they are the only blessed ones that possess the truth, and that the other participants opinions are lacking this same spiritual foundation. (Perhaps you should start the church of 45?)

        Be Blessed

        Below I have posted 50 evidences which point to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
        (Number’s 7, 29 & 30 below are particularly significant. As are the comments made within the, “Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming” portion.)

        50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture

        Historical Doctrine of Imminency

        1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.

        2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

        3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy.
        The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of re-establishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.

        4. The exhortation to be comforted by the “coming of the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.

        5. We are exhorted to look for the “Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

        6. Again, we are to “purify ourselves” in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is also meaningless.

        7. The church is told to ONLY look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.

        Nature of the Church

        (Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)

        8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

        9. The church is “not appointed to wrath” (Rom 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:9,10) The church cannot enter into the “great day of their wrath.”

        10. The Church will not be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” (1 Thess. 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

        11. The church will be “kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

        12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

        13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

        14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

        15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as a partial rapture does so clearly, (and others to a lesser extent). It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

        16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.

        17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.

        18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

        The Work of the Holy Spirit

        19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.

        20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the “lawless one” is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.

        21. The “falling away” in 2 Thess. 2:3. would better be understood in its context as “the departure.” This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.

        22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)

        The Hermeneutical Argument

        23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truly literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.

        24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God’s dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming

        25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.

        26. The “four and twenty elders” in Rev 4:1.-5:14. are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.

        27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev. 19:7-10.

        28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).

        29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.

        30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.

        31. The Judgment of Israel (Ezra 20:34-38.) occurs after the second coming and requires a re-gathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.

        Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

        32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.

        33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

        34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

        35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judged for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.

        36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.

        37. The rapture is imminent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

        38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.

        39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

        40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

        41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

        The Nature of the Tribulation

        42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the “great tribulation” and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

        43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deu.t 4:29,30. Jer. 30:4-11, Dan. 9:24-27, Dan. 12:1,2)

        44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

        45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

        46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.

        47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor. 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.

        48. The Unity of Daniel’s 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.

        49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by “The Lord Himself.”

        50. Rev. 22:17-20
        17 And the Spirit and the bride say , Come . And let him that heareth say , Come . And let him that is athirst come . And whosoever will , let him take the water of life freely.
        18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
        19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
        20 He which testifieth these things saith , Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come , Lord Jesus.

        http://www.linkjesus.com/50rapture.htm

        • Please consider the following as well.

          There appears to be two distinctly different groups that are described in the Bible when we look at this subject.
          And when we attempt to compile the information associated to these different groups, we encounter mutually contradictory aspects between them.

          Group – “A”

          Daniel 2:44-45,
          Daniel 7:9-14,
          Daniel 12:1-3,
          Zechariah 14:1-15,
          Matthew 13:41,
          Matthew 24:15-31,
          Matthew 26:64,
          Mark 13:14-27,
          Mark 14:62,
          Luke 21:25-28,
          Acts 1:9-11,
          Acts 3:19-21,
          1 Thessalonians 3:13,
          2 Thessalonians 1:6-10,
          2 Thessalonians 2:8,
          2 Peter 3:1-14,
          Jude 14,15,
          Revelation 1:7,
          Revelation 19:11, 20:6, Revelation 22:7,12, 20.

          Group – “B”

          John 14:1-3, Romans 8:19,
          1 Corinthians 1:7,8,
          1 Corinthians 15:1-53,
          1 Corinthians 16:22, Philippians 3:20,21,
          Colossians 3:4,
          1 Thessalonians 1:10,
          1 Thessalonians 2:19,
          1 Thessalonians 4:13-18,
          1 Thessalonians 5:9,
          1 Thessalonians 5:23,
          2 Thessalonians 2:1,(3),
          1 Timothy 6:14,
          2 Timothy 4:1,
          Titus 2:13,
          Hebrews 9:28,
          James 5:7-9,
          1 Peter 1:7,13,
          1 John 2:28,- 3:2,
          Jude 21,
          Revelation 2:25,
          Revelation 3:10.

          If you study all of these verses, I believe that you will see, that in Group “A” all people on the earth are affected; “every eye shall see Him.”
          But in Group “B”, only Believer’s are affected.

          In Group “A” things proceed only after a series of precedent events. Whereas in Group “B” it is imminent.
          We are instructed to expect Him directly after what is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10. Which in my opinion, is only the apostasy.

          In Group “A” it does not reference any translation of the church, or resurrection.
          In Group “B”, it specifically involves the resurrection of Believer’s.

          In Group “A” Translated believers accompany Christ to the earth. In Group “B” they are gathered from the earth.
          Both live and resurrected dead.

          In group “A” the Earth is judged.
          In Group “B” the Earth is not judged.

          In Group “A” It concludes “the Wrath”
          In Group “B” it occurs prior to “the Wrath.”

          In Group “A” Satan is bound for a thousand years,
          In Group “B” there is no reference to Satan whatsoever.

          In Group “A” Christ comes “with” His own.
          In Group “B” Christ comes “for” His own.

          In group “A” Christ comes to the earth.
          In Group “B” Christ comes in the air.

          In Group “A” Christ comes “with” His bride.
          In Group “B” He comes “for” His bride.

          In Group “A” the Tribulation is interrupted, and the Millennial Kingdom follows.
          In Group “B” the Great Tribulation follows.

          Whenever 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10 is fulfilled, we,(or those that are worthy to be His bride) are outta here. Amen.
          Then the Tribulation commences, until Christ’s Second Coming.

          Be Blessed

          • Hi Marianne and all,

            Please show me where in chapter 12 where the church is mentioned. Remember that the last time the word “church” is used is at the end of chapter 3 and never used again except in chapter 22, which is outside of the narrative. Everyone from that time on as a believer, is referred to as “Saint. It is important to always keep this in mind when you are reading from chapter 4 on. The remnant that is spoke of in my opinion would have to be the great tribulation saints, the group whom the beast makes war against and conquers for that last 3 1/2 years mentioned in both Daniel 7:25 and Rev.13:5-7. Otherwise, why didn’t John say, “The dragon went of to make war against the church?” Furthermore, the church cannot be the remnant that the beast goes after because that takes place at the middle of the seven until then end, which would put the church through all of the seals and most of the trumpet judgments, which againt are identified as the wrath of God.

            As I stated before, the great tribulation saints are a separate group of believers and are not part of the church. As proof of this, check out the following verse:

            “Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes–who are they and, and where did they come from? I answered, ‘Sir, you know.” And he said, ‘These are those who have come out of the great tribulation; they havd washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ ”

            The elder asks John who this group is in white robes and where they came from and John didn’t know them, ergo, they are not the church. He also identifies them as coming out of the great tribulation. Remeber also that God’s wrath will be running parallel to the events that are taking place in regards to the beast.

            • -
              Rev 12:17
              And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
              -

              -
              The church is who has the testimony of jesus christ…..it does not need to use the word church for it to be there.

              • Hi Maranne,

                You said:
                “The church is who has the testimony of jesus christ…..it does not need to use the word church for it to be there.

                I disagree. The great tribulatin saints also have the testimony of Jesus and the word of God as can be seen in the following verse:

                “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.

                The verse itself states that these great tribulation saints will be beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God. So yeah, I would say that along with the church they also have the testimony of Jesus. These are the same group that when asked by the Elder “Who are these dressed in white robes and where did they come from?” But John did’t know who they were, therefore, not the church.

                • hi don

                  but cannot it also be said that the verse does NOT distinguish between saints in the church and saints that get beheaded. Saints right now are being beheaded for their faith, and they are part of the church.

                  the passage does

                    not

                  say this occurs after a rapture to those remaining behind.

                  It says it happens to the saints.

                  it does not say which ones.

                  the tribulation is over by REV 8…….

                  wrath starts after that

                  • Hi Marianne,

                    Yes, but it does identify the saints as those who were beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they would not worship the beast, his image and would not receive his mark. By the time the beast and his mark are on the scene, the wrath of God will have been well under way and therefore the church cannot be here. This another reason why I have been making the point that, there is a clue regarding the separation of the Church and opposed to the great tribulation saints. As I have pointed out before, the last time the word “Church” is used is at the very end of chapter three and then it is gone, never used again within the narrative. Rev.4:1 marks the end of the church period and from that time forward all believers are referred to as “Saints” and never as the “Church.” These are important clues that God put in his word for us to find, but people continue to ignore them. If both the words “church” and “Saint” were used interchangeably from chapter 1 through chapter 3, then it would not be an issue for me. But the fact that ONLY the word “church” is used form chapter 1 through 3 and then afterwards ONLY the word “Saint” is used, this for me is big red flag. The church is removed in Rev.4:1 and therefore everywhere the word “Saint” is used from then on is referring to those great tribulation saints whom John did not recognize and not the church. Don’t you think that it is curious that the word “Church” was used over and over again from chapter 1 through 3 and then is never used again? You’d think that if the church was still here after the end of chapter 3 that the word “church” would come up somewhere throughout the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, but it doesn’t appear even once.

                    • I understand the logic of your point, but I think you need more than this one criteria to establish that the church disappears because the word church is not used.

                      I agree that this is a very important point, because it will affect all of us.

                      I would like to believe that what you say is true, but this one criteria is not sufficient to convince me. I see it as a weak argument.

                      If this were true, all the saints in heaven seen later would only be tribulation saints, and the rest of us do not count.

                    • hope you are right…

                      I personally do not want to be here. !!

            • it does not say the tribulation saints are not part of the church.

              • Hi Marianne and all,

                It is far more significant that just the Church, (Ekklesia, or assembly of people) that disappears and is not written of after Revelation 3:14, (with the exception as stated with 22:16), but it also the “door” (Thura, or portal) of Matthew 25:10., never being utilized once after Revelation 4:1 as well. Also, the term “Holy Spirit” is not used once within the entirety of the whole book of Revelation and is instead, suspiciously absent.

                This is why both Don and I believe that the rapture coincides with 4:1 and that there is a distinction between the words Church and Saints, within the book of Revelation. The Church denotes an assembly of people, whereas Saints, (Hagios), implies individuals.

                Be Blessed

              • That shut door is what the woman in the wilderness is commanded to do. The siq
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siq which Indian Jones rode is horse thru will be collapsed (because Isa26:20 commands it) after the people from Judea have arrived from the Zech14:5 valley of the mountains trail to Azal.
                =====================================================
                Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy [ D O O R S ] about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation(H2195) be overpast.
                =====================================================
                That H2195 Indignation is further defined by these two verses:

                Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation(H2195), to destroy the whole land.

                Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation(H2195): for at the time appointed the end shall be.
                =====================================================Dan 12:7 …sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for 3.5yrs and when he(antichrist) shall have accomplished to SCATTER the power of the holy people, all these things shall be Finished.

                The ekklesia across the face of the earth IS scattered unto practical non-existance after Rev4:1, but the gathering of the Wheat (Rev12:17 seed ‘grain’) is all in the barn! …waiting for the tares to be burned.

                This is not talking about Enoch removal, but lamb’s blood on the door posts, Pesach!

                • Hi 45,

                  I disagree.
                  To maintain the context, I am referring to the “door” in Matthew 25:10 and to those that specifically “entered through the door” to the Marriage before it was shut. I am referring to the wise Virgins.

                  Revelation 3:8… “I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.”

                  The Wise will keep and practice Yeshua’s word, and will not deny His name and will enter that door. I believe that it is more representative to that of the church, since it is written in the letter to the church in Philadelphia.

                  And Revelation 4:1 is the last time in the whole of the book that “Thura”(door) is utilized. Both Don and my premise is this is when the rapture will occur.
                  What you are proposing above happens some 3 1/2 years later.
                  The Ekklesia will be gone, but the Saints will be scattered.

              • The Lamb negotiates Petra to be a stable refuge, a wedding canopy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuppah

                Isa 16:1 Send ye the Lamb(Male Ram) to the ruler of the land from Selah(Petra) to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.

                Isa 16:3 … make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; …

                Isa 16:4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler…
                ====================================================
                What is done after entering the Chuppah? (chamber, closet)
                A 3.5 year long prayer meeting! If you don’t like prayer, I suggest you don’t go. Their unified matrimonial intercessory prayers will usher in both Armageddon and the coming of the Heavenly Jerusalem.
                ====================================================
                Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his CHAMBER, and the bride out of her CLOSET.
                Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
                Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

              • Its called the church of Philedephia because Philedephia means “brotherly love”. It is the church of brotherly love…

                Am I the only one ‘weeping aloud’ right now? Alone???????

                45

        • alienated

          interesting argument…but it is borrowed

          Jesus in the NT does tell his followers that they will be delievered up for persecution and death. rev 12 describes the church fleeing to the wilderness.

          And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

          saints are marytyed in the 5th seal. so this means they are here.

          so the problem is not pre or post but what actually constitutes the tribulation period, which daniel says is only a time, times and half a time – 3 1/2 years…and the wrath period which occurs after that.

          my position is that the tribulation is the first 6 seals. Jesus said to look for him when the sun turns dark and the moon turns red…..which is the 6th seal, and AFTER the tribulation…..

          then the trumpets, and vials (WRATH) occurs after that.

          -

          The rapture is at the 6th seal

          he returns at armageddon to stop the war and arrest and bind satan.

          rev 8 indicates the tribulation is over before the trumpets.

          • Hi Marianne,

            Borrowed?

            Though I did not receive that comment as being accusatory whatsoever, I did believe it to be irrelevant.

            If while during the course of my own investigative study I happen to come upon another individuals body of work, that appears on the surface to have merit, I will first validate that merit by performing due diligence regarding its content. If I am then satisfied with the said outcome, and have established it as being credible, I will then utilize it as a substantive reference.
            I will also provide the source regarding the origin of that study, as I did in “one” of the “two” posts above.
            Unfortunately I neglected to do so on the second one, (having just copied and pasted it from above on this same thread).
            The source regarding the Group A & B post was gleaned from Chuck and Nancy’s Missler’s book, “The Kingdom, Power & Glory.”
            However, whether borrowed or not is irrelevant, for the content itself is the substance of consideration.

            Now regarding the remainder of your post.
            I am aware of your personal time frame regarding the rapture, and when it is that you believe it is to take place, though I happen to disagree with it. Your statement has been voiced before on this thread, and I believe it has also addressed previously by either Don or myself.

            You say above, “Jesus said to look for him when the sun turns dark and the moon turns red…..which is the 6th seal, and AFTER the tribulation.” In addressing that particular comment again, I will provide the following.

            Above within this thread I had posted a commentary regarding the word “elect” and how it has been incorrectly associated as been representative of the Church within this chapter. (My study) And that because of that error, this current state of confusion exists. If one was to really read Matthew 24 and maintain the context of what is said by Yeshua at the time, they would be able to easily understand its message, and the ensuing time frame.

            Point 1) Matthew 24:3. The question posed. “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
            Notice that Yeshua was not asked as to when the rapture itself was going to take place, for at this time, the mystery regarding it specifically had not yet been revealed. It was only revealed to Paul when he himself was caught up to heaven in the Spirit. Therefore Yeshua answers the above specific questions within the following narrative, from Matthew 24:4. on.

            Point 2) Verse 9 is not in my opinion, referring to the true believing and practicing Church. Rather it is referring to those Saints that believe after the rapture has taken place. As for that matter, is this whole commentary.

            Point 3) Iniquity shall abound, (verse 12), because the man of lawlessness has been revealed.

            Point 4) Verse 13, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” The true Church is saved by the blood of the Lamb, and by the free gift and undeserved blessing of God’s grace and mercy. This verse is referring to those of the Saints that will not accept the mark of the beast and instead endure by maintaining their new found faith unto death.

            Point 5) (Verse 16) “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” Now if the word “elect” in verses 22, 24 and 31 were to be representative to that of the Church, (which is worldwide), why would Yeshua state the above specific geographical location?

            And then verse 29 takes place accordingly, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
            And after this happens verses 30 and 31 will take place;

            30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
            (This verse is referring as to what is written within Revelation 19:11-13. And when He comes, accompanying Him will be His raptured and resurrected “Church” Saints, (Revelation 19:14.)

            31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
            (This verse is not referring to the rapture. As I have commented on before the word that is translated into English as “elect” is the Greek word “ἐκλεκτός” transliterated as “eklektos”, (Strong’s 1588) and its primary definition is simply that of being “picked out, or chosen”. One can be either “picked out, or chosen” for blessings or for punishment. There appears to be a sequence of events that Yeshua is expressing here, so with keeping being “chosen” for either blessings or punishment in mind, what is the sequence within Revelation 19? Lets see in verse’s 19:17 and 18. and how they may relate to verse 31 above.

            ”17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
            18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

            As I have commented on before, verse 31 of Matthew 24 is referring to the “Wheat and the Tares” parable which Yeshua elaborates on later within verses 37 to 41 with the “one taken and one left” commentary, (and also perhaps in the “Sheep and Goat” judgment of Matthew 25:31-46.)

            Lets also look at how the same conversation is chronicled within the synoptic book of Luke.
            Within Luke 21:7. the disciples ask basically the same question of the Lord Yeshua. “Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”
            From that point forward the narrative is virtually identical, with a couple of exceptions which provide further information.
            One of these being verse 22, “For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

            The word translated into vengeance above is derived from the Greek “ἐκδίκησις” transliterated as “ekdikēsis” (Strong’s 1557) its definition being “a revenging, vengeance, or punishment”. Since it is Yeshua that will be opening the 1st. seal, and that Yeshua in essence is God, and that He is correlating the Tribulation as the time of punishment or vengeance, it seems illogical and lacking foundation to make any distinction whatsoever between the Tribulation and God’s wrath.

            Another would be that of verse 26, “Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.”
            This verse would also suggest that this period of Tribulation is associated with God’s wrath.

            Yet the most significant verse that was not included within the book of Matthew was that of verse 36.
            ”Watch ye therefore, and pray always , that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

            After speaking of the time of the Tribulation, and in my opinion, clearly associating it with the wrath of God itself, why if the opportunity didn’t exist somehow, would He make this particular statement? What could He possibly be referring to that would offer an opportunity to escape all that He had just previously discussed?

            (Just to clarify, the above is from my own study)

            Be Blessed

            • Again, just to reiterate and to bring attention to WHO it is that is actually making this statement.
              It is our blessed Lord and Savior Yeshua that say’s, “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

              What could possibly transpire which would allow for you and me, to hopefully stand before Yeshua our Lord, and in doing so, “escape” all theses things that shall come to pass, (the Tribulation and the wrath of God)?
              He is obviously referring to the Resurrection here within Luke 21:36.

              In Luke 20:33-36 our Lord says;
              33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she ? for seven had her to wife.
              34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry , and are given in marriage :
              35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, (the Millennial Kingdom) and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry , nor are given in marriage :
              36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

              What more really needs to be said by us? Hasn’t our Lord already stated that the resurrection is the rapture, and that it will happen prior to the Tribulation?

              I just don’t get it?
              I hear His voice and I’m not going to argue with Him.

              • the tribulation and wrath are 2 different events.

                Yeshua said he would return AFTER the tribulation…..(which is BEFORE the wrath)

                Matt 24 : 29-31

                Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

                And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                -

                The sun and moon signs are those of the 6th seal

            • they also asked when they would see him again.

              thess and matthew describe the same rapture event.

              and if the saints are still around to see the antichrist come up, then they are already in the tribulation.

              after being asked when would they see him again, it would be logical to assume that when Jesus described all the events and the taking up of the elect, he would be referring to those chose to come with him, and not those who he was going to destroy.

              they did not ask when the wicked were going to see Jesus, but when they would see him coming back.

              • Marianne,

                It is time for you to please address one of my questions now.

                “Could you provide scripture which would conclusively support your claim that the “Tribulation and Wrath” are separate forms of punishment and not simply one and the same?”

                No matter what you wish to call it, or how it is described within different books or verses, all terms would fall under the banner of, “Day of the Lord”!

                • hi alienated

                  My views and reasons are described with 2 posts

                  just wrote this one: :)
                  https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/tribulation-vs-wrath/

                  also a second one:
                  https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/tribulation-in-matthew-and-revelation/

                  I am glad you asked. This can be a very complex subject to sort out.

                • Hey there alienated! I totally agree in that, there is no separation between tribulation and the plagues that God will be pouring out. In fact, I believe that the events that are taking place at the hand of the beast and the false prophet all fall under the banner of the day of the Lord. Anyone who doesn’t agree with that I would have to remind them that, it is God who puts it into the hearts of the ten kings to accomplish his purpose by giving the beast their power and authority to rule.

                  • Hi Ya’s Don,

                    I hope that you’re doing well there bud.

                    I would agree with your above statement also.
                    It is really no different than what He did with Pharaoh to fulfill His good purpose and to show His power and strength.

                    By the way, are you finding this as frustrating as I am? LOL. :-)

                    Be Blessed

                    • Yes sir, doin’ well here, and I hope that you are as well. I finally bought a house and got the keys on Dec.21 and moved in during the holidays. And yes,it is very fraustrating that there is such diversity regarding the word of God, specifically on Revelation and end time events. I believe that the only common ground that we can all share is Christ crucified, buried and resurrected. At least I would hope that we are all on the same page regardng our salvation and our hope of eternal life.

      • Why would I want to start a church that already exists? A great many love the Song of Songs and see in it the Bride of Christ eagerly waiting her beloved. My name ’45′ comes from Psalm 45, the wedding Psalm.
        =====================================================
        Ps 45 To the Chief Musician. Concerning the Lilies, for the sons of Korah, a contemplation; A Song of Loves. My heart is overflowing with a good matter; I speak of my works to the King; my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. v2 You are the fairest of the sons of men; grace is poured into Your lips; therefore God has blessed You forever. v3 Gird Your sword on Your thigh, O mighty one, with Your glory and Your majesty. v4 And ride prosperously in Your majesty, because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and Your right hand shall teach You fearful things. v5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; peoples fall under You.

        v6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; the staff of Your kingdom is a staff of righteousness. v7 You love righteousness, and hate wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows. v8 All Your garments smell of myrrh, and aloes and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad. v9 Kings’ daughters are among Your precious ones; on Your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.

        v10 Listen, O daughter, and look; and bow down your ear; and forget your own people and your father’s house. v11 And cause the King greatly to desire your beauty, for He is your Lord, and you shall worship Him. v12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the peoples shall stroke your face. v13 The king’s daughter is all glorious within; her clothing is trimmed with gold. v14 She shall be brought to the king in clothing of needlework; the virgins, her companions after her, shall be brought to You. v15 They shall be led with joy and gladness; they shall enter into the King’s palace. v16 Your sons shall be in the place of your fathers; you will make them princes in all the land. v17 I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations; therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.

  73. Hi Marianne,

    From reading the Scripture and as I stated earlier, the restrainer or the one who now holds back, is designated as a “He” and as “The One” and therefore is speaking of an individual. I doubt very much that time is being referred to in this manner. Not only that, but the “He” who is holding back sin and the man of sin, sounds like one who is imposing his athority and power in doing so. I’m just sayin’ ……

    • hi don

      My original assumption is still there, that the restrainer has to be the holy spirit, but then this goes back to the original paradox.

      we leave after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed

      vs

      the restrainer ( holy spirit) is removed ( which means believers are removed also) and THEN the man of sin is revealed.

      your ideas?

  74. Morning 45 and all,

    I wanted to respond to an issue that you also mentioned while debating the restrainer issue. I believe that you had said that the seals, trumpets and bowls all overlap each other. I’m sorry but this conclusion is not Scriptural either, as they are shown to take place in chonological order as in 1st seal, 2nd seal, 3rd seal and so on, which is how they are layed out in Revelation. My proof for this is in the following Scripture:

    “I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.”

    The verse above shows that the bowl judgments are a chronological unit which complete God’s wrath. The fact that they are mentioned as being “last” would denote that other wrath must take place prior to them. That is, if something is listed as last, then something had to come before or prior to and therefore, since we have the bowls identified as wrath and they are mentioned as being last, then other wrath had to take place prior to the bowl judgments, which would of course be the seals and trumpets.

    • (Cont.)

      My point is that, you can’t have the bowls overlapping with the seals and trumpets if they are referred to as being last.

    • Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

      Rev 11:15 And the 7th angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world — ARE — become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

      1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
      ==========================================================
      If as you say Trumpet #7 is followed by Bowl #1, then the following occur BETWEEN the trumpets and bowls:

      (1) The Last Trumpet Rapture

      (2) Beginning of Christ’s 1,000 year reign of peace.

    • Following the line of logic that all 7 Bowls of Wrath must occur last, would lead us to the remotely possible conclusion, that the 7 Bowls of Wrath are poured out at the end of the 1000 years of peace, when Satan is loosed out of prison. But that is a bit of a stretch because the beast and his mark would be happening all over again 1000 years later…

      Rev 20:7,8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, v8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

      • from the reading , it appears that there is first trumpets, then vials, then the 1000 years of peace.

      • After this past week of tribulation, how bout we just forget the seals, trumpets, and bowls – and start the 1000 years right now tonight at sunset, as Shabbat starts?

        Anyone who wishes to join me is welcome!

        Shalom to all, and to all a good night. Amen.

      • And why would you assume that the Bowls would take place during the first part of the millennium? Why don’t you guys understand the chronological order of Revelation? It is not until sometime after the seventh bowl judgment that Jesus returns and not before.

        1. Church period (The Now)
        2. Resurrection and catching away
        3. Seals (Wrath)
        4. Trumpets (wrath)
        5. Bowls (wrath)
        6. Return of the Lord (end of the age)
        7. Armageddon (Clean up)
        8. Beast and false prophet thrown alive in the lake of fire
        9. Satan bound in the Abyss for a thousand years
        10. Thousand year reign of Christ (1000 years of peace)
        11. Satan released at the end of the thousand years
        12. The unfaithful throughout time resurrected
        13. Great white throne judgement
        14. This present heaven and earth pass away
        15. God creates a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem
        16. Eternity ………………………………………………

        This is the chronological order of these events.

  75. I have been reading this recent thread about the timing of the catching away and would like to ask a question; what do the Fall Feasts of Israel have to do with this, if anything?. Maybe it has been addressed above and I overlooked it. If not would be interested in knowing your basic thoughts about it.

    • Hi Al,

      This has got to be up there somewhere within this thread. If not,… then I would be in error not to tie it all together, and you are correct to bring up the topic. Briefly because I have to head out the door……….

      Rapture on “Yom Teru’ah”, (Feast of Trumpets), The Bema seat and the Marriage take place in heaven during the seven years of Wrath upon the earth, which would then fulfill “Yom Kippur”, (Day of Atonement), which is the one Feast that is not required to be fulfilled by the true Church, because the Church owes no atonement.

      Of course the Church itself is not innocent, however it is exonerated through the Blood of the Lamb.

      Return of the Lord Yeshua with His saints to establish His Millennial Kingdom reign would be on “Sukkot”, (Feast of Tabernacles).

      Simple stuff to me. Yeshua fulfilled the first four to perfection, it only makes sense that He would fulfill the last three in the same perfect manner.

      Be Blessed

      • Ooop’s in my hast I forgot to add above …..

        Yom Teru’ah, the Feast of Trumpets – Last Trump – 1 Corinthians 15:52.

  76. ==============================================================================================
    Matt 24:15 Olivet Discourse – Quick Review of Big Picture Timeframe:
    =======================================================
    …being in agreement on the 7 Sealed SCROLL(book) is necessary to eliminate many contradictions.

    Rev5:1 …in the right hand of He that sat on the throne a SCROLL, having been written inside and outside, and having been sealed with 7 seals.

    **Presented in scriptural order, the below 11 verses describe 7 years, beginning with PEACE, then SUDDENLY in the middle of the 7 years, the daily sacrifice & offering is replaced by Daniel’s ABOMINATION, the 666 Image of the Beast. This IDOL causes the [3.5yr Clock] to start ticking, which Matt24:21 calls the “GREAT TRIBULATION (GT)”. While the Book of Revelation extends beyond the GT both before and after, the Rev5:1 scroll includes all of the GT 3.5 years, plus a little more by reason of Seal #6 (Rev6:12,13) intercept with Matt24:29.

    Dan7:25 And he …shall wear out the saints of the Most High…shall be given into his hand …until …(3.5yrs).
    Dan8:11 Yea, he magnified himself…, and the daily sacrifice was taken away by him, …
    Dan8:25 …he shall cause deceit to succeed in his hand…he…magnify himself…and BY PEACE shall destroy many….
    Dan9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many…(for 7yrs). And in the midst of…(7yrs) he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, …abominations…
    Dan11:31 … remove the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the desolating ABOMINATION.
    Dan12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating ABOMINATION set up, a 1290 days shall occur.
    Matt24:15&21 …when you see the ABOMINATION of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place …then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
    1Th5:3 For when they shall say, “Peace and safety”; then SUDDEN destruction cometh upon them…
    Rev13:15&17 …worship the image …buy or sell… mark…name of the beast…(666) of his name. (Daniel’s ABOMINATION)
    ==============================================================================================
    I avoided issues of Rapture and Church, to zero in on the 21 piece events(7+7+7) with respect to 3.5 years.

    Are we in agreement with this** much??

    (If not all together on this** point, talking about other matters because considerably more complex.)

    Thanks,

    45
    ==============================================================================================

    • I don’t know about you guys, but if I were alive to tell about it and just had become aware of 2 billion people dying, I WOULD NOT be waiting around for any Abomination to be set up, anywhere! No, if I were in Judaea I would flee to the mountains immediately right then! This gives us a pretty big clue that Rev13 begins BEFORE the Rev9:18 Two billion people are killed.

      Rev 9:18b … third part of men killed, … (2 Billion people +)
      Rev 13:15c …as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
      Mat 24:15,16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) v16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    • Hi 45,

      I would just like to add that, though the abomination is set up in the middle of the seven, that does not mean that this is where the first seal is opened. Remember, he makes his covenant for one ‘seven’ and I believe that the first seal is opened prior to the middle of the seven. In other words, I don’t believe that God’s wrath begins in the middle of the seven. I believe God’s wrath, starting with the first seal, begins at the beginning of the seven and then overlaps the events of the beast until the Lord returns, which ushers in the end of the age.

    • Hello again 45,

      Just an FYI, the entire period is made up of two 3 1/2 year periods. Jesus said that if the last 3 1/2 period was not shotened, no one would be left on the earth. The day of the Lord is contained within that seven year period with the culmination being the return of the Lord that is, it does not extent out to 10.5 years. The time period was established in Dan.9:7 when the angesl said, “He shall make a covenant with many for one ‘seven’.”
      There are not three 3 1/2 year periods mentioned, neither in Daniel nor Revelation.

    • Good Morning Don, : ) [ Good Morning to the rest of you also! : ) ]

      Sorry I did not see your reply before going to sleep last night. Thanks for the reply.

      Am currently working on a reply to you….

    • ==========================================================
      ==========================================================
      (1) ~”Mt24:22 …for the elect’s sake those days (GT) shall be shortened.” I agree.
      ==========================================================
      (2) ~”Dan9:27 (Gabriel speaking) …he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week…” I agree.
      ==========================================================
      (3) “There are not three 3½ year periods mentioned, neither in Daniel nor Revelation.”
      Glad you agree all 10 of these 3½ year periods are literally one-in-the-same GT 3.5yrs!
      Dan7:25(3.5yrs), Dan9:27(A3.5yr+B3.5yr), Dan12:7(3.5yrs), Dan12:11(1290days), Dan12:12(1335days)
      Rev11:2(42mths), Rev11:3(1260days), Rev12:6(1260days), Rev12:14(3.5yrs), Rev13:5(42mths)
      ==========================================================
      (4) “The day of the Lord is contained within that 7 year period”
      Are you ‘force-fitting’ the 3.5yr GT backwards to earlier than half-way, just so Jesus’ return will fit into the 7yrs?
      i.e. Are counting backwards 1335 days from the end of 7yrs, and defining THAT is where the Abomination is set up?
      Mat 24:29,30 Immediately AFTER the tribulation (GT) of those days…v30 …Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven…
      ==========================================================
      (5) ~”God’s wrath continuing until the Lord returns”
      How much time do you feel elapses between GT(end) & D.L. to accomplish Rev6:12-17(same as Mat24:29,30)?
      i.e. From GT — > DL takes: 0 days, 15 days, 30 days, 45 days, 75 days, or something else? And why? (from scripture please) If you currently have an opinion on this Don, I would really like to know, because I will be re-evaluating my own opinion coupled with scripture based upon your response. Thanks.
      Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation (GT) of those days…(X, Y, & Z occurs)…
      Mat 24:30 …Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven… [ Day of the Lord (D.L.) ]
      Rev 6:17 For the ‘Great Day of his Wrath’ (D.L.) is come; and who shall be able to stand?
      ==========================================================
      (6) ~”God’s wrath, starting with the 1st seal, begins at 7yr onset”

      Your view differs from the top of this tread which says the seals began ~2000yrs ago. Looking at only the first 3.5 years, if Rev6:2 Antichrist rides out at 7yr onset, then Antichrist is not allowed to Dan7:25 dominate the saints until the Abomination is set up. There is a string of verses which hint at a ‘cobra-like’ hypnotizing taking place to strongly lure the world into a ‘sense of security’, and then BAM a strike comes out of no where taking peace from the earth. If Rev6:4 PEACE is removed from the earth, what do you think would qualify? 3,000 dead from 911 does not equate to 1.75 billion people (¼th Earth) of Rev6:8. Combine both the Haiti EQ with the Indonesian tsunami arrives at a mere ½ million. Only by multiplying that ½ million x 3,500 gets us to 1.75 billion. It’s a very big number, and each of those catastrophes made worldwide news headlines for months. I assure you, if the Rev6:4 red war horse is let out with a GREAT sword at the beginning of the 7yrs, it would throw the world news media in a frantic whirlwind. The whole world would be then be looking for Jesus, thus no subtlety at all to qualify as the carefree “days of Noah & days of Lot” at Abomination set up. We know when to press the “PANIC BUTTON” because Jesus said it would be the armies surrounding Jerusalem, but more specifically, the setting up of Daniel’s Abomination. Thus if worldwide trauma in the first 3.5yrs comes even remotely close to as little as a 10th of 1.75 billion deaths within a couple of years time frame, the whole world would NOT be caught off guard as in the Days of Noah. This frame of logic holds me back from believing any kind of major world trauma will occur before tribulation midpoint. Jesus’ Luk17:29 words suggested it would be like Gen19:9 where self-righteous belligerency over one’s own personal homosexual rape crime would be ruthlessly prominent, which I doubt would be so strong if 100+ million people on the earth had recently died. Recent departures of large populations, tend to sober up the human flesh. Jesus actually WANTS the world at large to be caught off guard. This also is why I believe peace will be dominant during the first 3.5 yrs. Your thoughts?
      ========================
      Top of Thread: “…first 5 seals of Revelation describe …past 2000 years, and this will… intensify up to the 6th seal. This is the Lesser Tribulation.”
      ========================
      Dan7:25 …Saints… given into his hand (little horn) until …(3.5yrs).
      Rev6:4 …take PEACE from the earth, …kill one another: …GREAT sword.
      Rev6:8 …Death, and Hell …1/4 earth, to KILL with: A, B, C, D.
      ========================
      Rev6:6 …A choenix of wheat(1 day’s food ration) for a denarius(1 day’s wage)…
      Rev6:8 …authority …over ¼ earth, to KILL with…HUNGER + A, B, C…
      Rev11:6 …(2 Witnesses) power (for 1260 days) to…(drought–>’famine’)…smite…earth…all plagues…
      ========================
      Dan8:25 says Antichrist (little horn) by PEACE shall DESTROY MANY + v24…he shall DESTROY WONDERFULLY…
      1Th5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN destruction cometh upon them, …
      Luk 17:27b …until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
      Luk 17:28 …as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
      Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
      Gen 19:4,5,9a …the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: v5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. v9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them! …
      ========================
      Zec 14:2a For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle…
      Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
      Mat 24:15 … abomination… by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand:)
      Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains… Zec 14:5 …the valley of the mountains…
      Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
      Luk 21:24b …Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
      Rev 11:2 … given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months.
      ========================

      • Hello 45 and all,

        I am not going to reply to all of these in one post, but will address them one or two at a time for ease of reading.

        You said:
        (4) “The day of the Lord is contained within that 7 year period”
        Are you ‘force-fitting’ the 3.5yr GT backwards to earlier than half-way, just so Jesus’ return will fit into the 7yrs?
        i.e. Are counting backwards 1335 days from the end of 7yrs, and defining THAT is where the Abomination is set up?
        Mat 24:29,30 Immediately AFTER the tribulation (GT) of those days…v30 …Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven…”

        Rebut:
        First of all, as alienated and myself have listed in other posts, those living who are changed and caught up immediately following the resurrection was something that was not revealed in the OT Scriptures. Something else that was not revealed to the OT writers was the fact that the resurrection and catching away is referred to by Paul as the day of the Lord and is in fact what initiates it. In the OT, the day of the Lord was only know as a day of darkness and wrath and fierce anger. Here in 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul gives a detail account the resurrection and of our being changed and caught up and then in 1 Thes.5:1-2 he refers to that event as the day of the Lord, which is followed by those saying “Peace and safety” which is then followed the wrath part of the day of the Lord.

        The time period is established in Dan.9:27 as seven years, which is made up of two 3 1/2 year periods, which are divided by the setting up of that abomination that causes the desolation. What kicks off that seven years is where that ruler, the beast, initiates his covenant with many for a one seven year period and therefore, the making of that covenant is what begins the seven years. Regarding the two witnesses, I personally believe that their time of prophecy takes place during the first 3 1/2 years until the middle opposed to from the middle to the end. The reason for this is that it is stated that no one can kill these two witness until they finish their time of witnessing. Rev.11:7 states that once they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them and kill them. So, the question would be, “When does the beast come up out of the Abyss? The answer to this is at the 5th trumpet, where that angel opens the Abyss and lets out those demonic being who are commanded to sting the inhabitants of the earth for 5 months. It also states in Rev.9:11 that those demonic beings have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss whose name is Abaddon and Apollyon both meaning “Destroyer.” At the time that the Abyss is opened to let out those other demonic beings, their king also comes out, which I believe is timed close to when those those two witnesses will be finishing their time of witnessing.

        Another thing to consider is that, during the middle of that seven year period is when that abomination is set up, which in turn causes the desolation of Jerusalem and that whole area. This is synonymous with the woman fleeing out into the desert where she is cared for 3 1/2 years, also mentioned by Jesus in Mt.24:15. Therefore, if the setting up of the abomination causes the desolation of Jerusalem so that the woman (Israel) is being cared for out in the desert in a place prepared for them by God, then there would be no one in Jerusalem for the two witnesses to witness to, since Jerusalem will then be made desolate. Also, I can’t see the two witnesses beginning their time of prophecy from the middle of the seven to the end, because that would have them being killed by the beast near the time that Jesus returns to the earth.

        In Dan.12:11, the 1,290 days and the mention of 1335 days are thirty and forty-five days respectively beyond the last 3 1/2 year period, which I am assuming has to do possibly with judgment and other programs or other business that the Lord will be carrying out. There is just nothing said regarding what is taking place during that extra thirty and forty-five days.

        The mention of the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven is of course a reference to the return of the Lord at the end of the age just after the 7th bowl has been poured out. We know that Jesus will not have returned before this and that because, at the pouring out of the 6th bowl and in between the pouring out of the 7th bowl, Jesus makes an interjection saying:

        “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

        By this announcement, we then know that Jesus will have not yet returned prior to the 7th bowl. At the 6th bowl those spirits of demons go out to all the earth and gather the kings, their generals and their armies, which are synonymous with the kings and generals seen gathered in Rev.19:19 who are all killed by that double-edged sword at the Lord’s return.

        So much for keeping it short for ease of reading.

        • my thoughts on the 30 and 45 extra days for 1290 and 1335:

          the abomination occurs 30 days before the literal midpoint of the 7 years, and it takes 30 days for the Jews to come out of shock and leave town.

          the extra 45 days would extend from the time of the fall feasts when the 7 years started to the feast of dedication ( Hannukah) where the temple will be cleansed and rededicated.

          • Don,
            Thanks. Please continue.
            ===================================================
            Marianne,
            Is there a diagram Marianne that perfectly details what you have just mentioned regarding the 1290 & 1335, cause I’m having a little difficulty assimilating it completely together from what you’ve said. Thanks.

            Yes, Hannukah is a subject of much breadth extending well outside of the scope of this thread…

          • Morning Marianne and all,

            You said:
            “and it takes 30 days for the Jews to come out of shock and leave town”

            I doubt very much that it takes them 30 days to vacate and that because of following verse:

            “Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.”

            The verse above would suggest urgency, as in, leave right now! Remember that it states that the dragon (Satan) will spew water like a river to overtake the woman (Israel), which is sybolic for sending an army after Israel – see Ps 124, Dan.11:10, Jer.47:1-3. So, I doubt very much that the Jews will have 30 days to get out.

            I’m just sayin’ …….

            • Well that is the advice, but how long will it take for them to get the point. There are many secular jews there too, who may not respond quickly. The jews are not going to follow the instructions of jesus, they don’t even believe in him. they may first try to rectify the situation, and then realize their efforts of protesting are not working, then the leave.

              I would think that the IDF would first try to oust the antichrist, and end up in a painful battle.
              When all has failed, people will realize that the AC is not going anywhere and he is stronger than they are.

              people get warnings all the time about disasters. People in the gulf coast are told to vacate when a large hurricane comes, and most just sit there anyhow, then try to leave too late. Look at Katrina. people stayed too long, and got stuck.

              • In this verse Jesus is letting us know the urgency of the situation. If you don’t have time to return to the field to get your cloak or to go down into your house get anything out, then it means get the heck out of there, right now! Remember that once that abomination goes up and Jerusalem is surrounded by his forces, there will be no time for anything else. From the description of it in both Matthew and Revelation, I don’t believe that the beast is going to be Mr. nice guy and give them safe passage out to the place that God has prepared for them.

                • 2 Cents Worth…….

                  Regarding the fleeing of Israel, (the woman in Rev.12) and who Yeshua is referring to in Matthew 24 there, (the elect), though not stated anywhere explicitly, I believe the text is referring to the “Corporate”, and unfortunately many “individuals” will be killed.

                  Carry on Don.

                  • Morning Alienated,

                    Yes, my point is that, the beast will have just caused the daily sacrifice and offerings to cease, breaking his covenant with them and will be setting up that abomination, basically, he’s taking over and showing his true colors. Therefore, this situation is not something that will be able to be resolved diplomatically, but will be immediately life threatening, that is, if you don’t leave you’re dead! So I doubt very much whether anyone is going to stick around to argue with him regarding his breaking of the seven year contract and the setting up of his image in the temple. This is the reason for the wording that Jesus used regarding no one turning back to get his cloak or going down into his house to get anything out and that because this will be an immediate life threatening situation. I don’t know how else Jesus could word it to get the point across that this is life threatening and you need to leave right now!

                • how would you explain the 30 days?

                  • To answer your question, as I said in an earlier post, the seven year period consists of two 3 1/2 year periods with the setting up of the abomination in the middle dividing the two. After that last 1,260 days (3 1/2 years), there is the mention of 1,290 and 1335 days, which is 30 and 45 days longer respectively. What is taking place during these extended periods of time is not mentioned. Ibid that during those times beyond the 1,260 days, there may be judgments and other business that the Lord is taking care of, but what that is is simply not revealed. We do know however from Daniel that sixty-nine of the seven year periods have already been completed and that one ‘seven’ year period remains to be fulfilled. It appears that the 30 and 45 days are outside of that last seven. To say it another way, I believe that the seventh bowl will take place, followed by the return of the Lord and then those 30 and 45 days will immediately follow. I do not believe that we should not include those days as part of the established seven years, but as other Godly events that will be taking place, which again, we just don’t know what will be going on during that time.

      • Started this new line indention so we all 4 can continue on the same subject:
        =====================================================
        It seems like the 4 of us all agree on Bible authority and that in the middle of Jesus’ 1000yr reign, all the seals, trumpets, bowls, tribulation, wrath, rapture, first resurrection, and day of the Lord each and every one occurred somewhere before the midpoint of the 1000yr reign. Besides this agreement, it seems like all 4 of us disagree about timing of these pieces! Surely the Bible listed chronologies for the purpose of figuring them out. Not to mention the multitude of opinions from others, why are we 4 having so many problems seeing eye-to-eye with these things?? Is not the Holy Spirit one Spirit????…who leads us all into Truth? What is the problem here?
        =====================================================

        • Hi 45,

          I am not sure what you’re stating, regarding as to what we are in agreement with above?

          Both Don and I believe that the Two Witnesses will begin their prophecy at the beginning of the Tribulation, (Amos 3:7) and that the fulfilment of all of the Wrath, (ie; Seals, Trumpets and Bowls) will be completed prior to the establishing the Millennial Kingdom!

          If you are implying that the Tribulation/Wrath occurs “during” the 1000 year reign, then we are not in agreement on that point.
          Could you please clarify your above point.

          • I do not believe the Tribulation/Wrath occurs “during” the 1000 year reign.

            • That’s a good idea, let’s establish the two 3 1/2 year periods:

              Beginning of the first 3 1/2 years:
              “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’

              Middle of the two 3 1/2 year periods:

              “In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,”

              End of the last 3 1/2 year period:

              “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

              Fulfillment of the above verse and the end of the last 3 1/2 years:

              “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”

        • Hi 45,

          You caught my attention with the mention of the “and that in the middle of Jesus’ 1000yr reign.” Therefore, let me clarify what I believe in regards to the chonology of end time events:

          1. We are currently living in the church period.
          2. The resurrection and catching away will take place
          3. The covenant for seven years begins
          4. Abomination of desolation set up in the middle of the seven
          5. The Lord returns 3 1/2 years later ushering in the end of the age.
          6. Beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire alive
          7. Millennial period begins (Thousand year reign of Christ)
          8. End of thousand years
          10. Great white throne judgment
          11. Satan thrown into the lake of fire
          12. Eternity ………………………………………………………..

          Based on the above chronological events, I am positive that we have not entered into the millennial period. The obvious reasons are that we have not seen the beast nor the false prophet nor his mark, which all take place during the seven year period prior to the millennium. Furthermore, we must have the visual, physical return of the Lord to the earth before we can enter into that thousand year period. Not to mention that if we were currently living in the thousand year period Satan would have to be bound and locked up in the Abyss and I assure you that he is not, but is alive and very busy in these last days. On top of that, we have not seen any of the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments, (that is unless you hold to a historical view of them) which all must all take place prior to the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ.

          Has anyone seen any demonic locust-like scoprions that look like horses prepared for battle running around?

          • Hi Don,

            I did not follow your following statement:
            Don: “And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination”
            Where is this ‘wing’ in scripture? chapter, verse?
            ===================================================
            No demonic scorpions in Texas (not yet anyway).

            We are both speaking English. I threw “middle of Jesus’ 1000yr reign” out there only because, surely by 2500AD, all 4 of us would be in agreement that the Great Tribulation had long since past. It was NOT to imply I believe 2012AD is currently 500yrs into that 1000yrs. Frankly, I believe I’m the only one of we 4 who does NOT believe the Seals -or- 7yr Tribulation have already started. I do not believe either one will start this entire decade (2011-2020AD). I am stating my position clearly not just for you Don, but for many who will be reading these posts.

            If given sufficient scriptural proof, I might could become persuaded to change that position, but for now it stands very firm.
            ===================================================
            Totally setting aside my above stated opinion, we 4 still have a truckload in common, plenty to continue discussing the list of Ten 3.5yr periods referenced in Daniel and Revelation.

            Where do you stand Don on each of these ten? Which occur in the Early3.5yrs and which occur in the Late3.5yrs? And its ok by me that any say such and such occurs Bridged3.5yr across the mid-section, or ExtendsPriorTo the Early3.5yrs, or ExtendsPast the Late3.5yrs. Not a problem to say Pending, waiting for further evidence to solidify one’s view. This blog is a collaboration ’round table’ of sorts. We are putting the best of each our efforts together to build a stable unified mindset (if possible). And we are not trying to attain commonality, then why QA blog at all?

            I’ve already stated my ‘current’ view. Hope everyone comes out in the open and states their position regarding these ten 3.5yrs periods, so everyone knows where everyone else stands.

            Thank you for your past and future comments, : )

            45

            • Hi 45,

              If I may Don?

              “Wing” of the Temple would be written that way in say the “New International Version” of Daniel 9:27, though I can’t see anything within the original text to suggest why?

              “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Daniel 9:27 NIV.

              Actually there are 3 out of the 4 that don’t believe that any of the Seals themselves have been opened yet, Marianne would be the exception to that train of thought.

              I will participate further, but I am currently experiencing a tooth-ache that I am sure could potentially kill a horse. lol.
              As it is, I can’t concentrate long enough to write very much.

              Count your blessings, cause that isn’t normally one of my strong suits. LOL :-)

              Be Blessed

              • Oh man! Sorry to hear about the tooth ache. I Haven’t had one since I was a kid, but I sure remember what they felt like, ouch! I hope you can get the pain under control dude.

              • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_of_clove

                If you have a 24hr pharmacy nearby, Clove Oil works as good as narcotics for most toothaches. In grocery stores where the pharmacy is closed, the Toothache Clove Oil is normally stocked near (but outside) the pharmacy in the Oral Hygeine section.

                It takes most, if not all the pain away in less than a minute.

                Hope you get feeling better soon.

        • Hello again,

          To answer your question, it is in Dan.9:27 where he refers to the setting up of the abomination of desolation on a “Wing of the temple.” In Mt.24:15 however, Jesus quoting from Daniel specifies that the abomination is set up in the Holy Place within the temple.

          You said:
          “Frankly, I believe I’m the only one of we 4 who does NOT believe the Seals -or- 7yr Tribulation have already started”

          In my previous posts I have listed a chronological summary of where we are currently and as well as the events that are to follow, which should have shown you that I myself and I am pretty sure that Alienated feels the same and that being, we know that we have not yet begun that last seven year period. If we had, we would have must definitely seen or heard about a seven year peace treaty with Israel, since that would definitely be a top news item. The making of that covenant is what starts that seven year ball rolling, leading up to the return of the Lord and ushering in the end of the age. Furthermore, there is really no way of telling when that time will begin and that because, though there are plenty of signs signaling the end of the age, there are no such signs pointing to the resurrection and catching away, which I believe must take place prior to that covenant being made.

          You said:
          ” the list of Ten 3.5yr periods referenced in Daniel and Revelation. Where do you stand Don on each of these ten? ”

          First, I don’t know of or believe that there are ten 3 1/2 year periods. Where did you get this idea from? As I said, the seven year period is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, the last 3 1/2 years being identified as the “Tribulation, the great one.”

          • the final week/7 years has started…In my dream which I did detail somewhere…I myself had been studying/comtemplating/searching for something that could have been the “convenant with many” and thought one day…that the final “antichrist” would not want us to know when it was signed as that would be a sure “sign” for all Christians to know how much longer we had. As I kept studying….i just kept thinking about this. Well…On March 5,2012 the Lord woke me in the middle of the night…when I woke He gave me these exact words “quit looking for the convenant, it has happened. You are in the final 7 years now” …I asked him if he woke me to specifically remember those words and he absolutely confirmed it. I then went back to sleep and I am not sHre how much longer later..not long at all I don’t think, He woke me again and the minute I woke, He gave me these exact words ” the next thing to look for is the Abomination of Desolation”….again, I asked Him, Lord did you wake me so I would remember this dream ( although I am not sure I would call it a dream). He again confirmed YES I did wake you so you would remember these words. I am diligently watching, waiting for the AoD…and I believe it will soon be happening.

            • this is what I sense also.

            • Deb,
              I believe by faith that we are witnessing the events of revelation 4, and 5, as we speak. The door of heaven will be opened, rev. 4:1, and God will be revealed, psalm 112. We can see the change of season, but we are not quite at the start. Yes the covenent may have already been signed, but do not look for a final seven years yet. They do not begin until the Israel’s demise and rescue to the wilderness is completed, and the dragon comes after those who hold to the testimony of Jesus.

              What I am saying is that there is another week to come.

              See mariannes post on “Israel’s Purification”, this might explain it better. You are a part of that purification, as Water from the pool of siloam. There is healing there.

              The first five seals have been opened for centuries, even millenia, but will culminate, in the sequence described in revalation six, over the next several years.

              what I have been revealed is that we are in the final seven years for Israel, as the final week of their 70 year restoration. But that on top of that there is another 7/10 years. In other words there are two sets of prophecies, one pertaining to Israel, and the other for the Church.

              70 years = Israels final 70. It is seven dacades, or ten seven year days, Just as Yom kippur is the 10th day of the seventh month,which = the ten days of Awe between the feast of trumpets and Yom kippur. After that we have ten more days, in years till the completion of the feast of tabernacles. So Israel has had their covenent, and abomination(1973), but there is one more to go. This is the Ac covenent, and final abomination. Just consider this, and read mariannes post on Israel’s purification/80 days.

              In other words, you are right, but there is more. I do not have all the pieces in this puzzle yet, so reflect and interact in the Spirit, But do it on a less “crowded” page. this one takes forever to load on my antique computer.

            • Hi Dep and all,

              Regarding what you said: “Don’t look for the covenant, look for the abomination.” First, I don’t know who is speaking with you, but it is not God, as he will never contradict his own word. The covenant with many is just as much of a sign as the abomination is, for it marks the beginning of the seven years. That covenant would be a very high profile event seeing that the covenant of peace has to do with Israel, for the whole world would know it!

              Secondly, I don’t plan on being here during that time, because that would put the church well into the wrath of God and we are not appointed to suffer wrath. In Luke’s version of Mt.24, after Jesus describes those events, he then says: “Pray always that you may be able to escape these things that are coming upon all the inhabitants of the whole earth.”

              Furthermore, the church/Ekklesia is never mentioned past the end of the 3rd chapter of Revelation. The only non-Jewish believers that are mentioned from Rev.5:8 are the saints/Hagios. These are the great tribulation saints mentioned in Rev.7. Also, Rev.4:1 through 22 is everything that must take place later, that is, after the church period, which is represented by the seven letters.

              • actually, it does not say it is a covenant of peace….just a covenant.

                also, it does not say it is a public event, although it may be one.

                it could be a secret alliance of enemies against Israel to destroy it.

                wait and see

              • Don,
                Good to hear from you again. I know you think I am off, but the immensity of what is happening is beyond our understanding and full comprehension. I believe we are entering the time of Jacob’s trouble, and the 7 year tenth day of atonement for Israel. This will be followed by another “short season”, and the time of tribulation and wrath as spoken of in revelation. So in a sense, you are right, and in a sense others are right. I cannot fully explain or prove this to you, but the HS is making me understand. It is something that apart from the Spirit we cannot fully comprehend. The Holy Spirit is moving in people now! This is not a joke. Pray my brother for guidance. Do not be so critical of What the holy Spirit is revealing to others. What is being revealed is so much greater than our understanding. Receive (Choreo) the Spirits of those around you. I know nothing but what he is revealing through the Spirit. This is why the Spirit of the Lord was separated amongst the seven churches. we each hold a piece of the puzzle, but it will soon become one. Test the Spirits if you must as in 1 John 4, but receive them if they pass these tests. Jesus was fully human, and he is fully God. 1x1x1=1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1=1, He died on the cross shedding his blood to atone for sin, and he rose again the third day and ascended to heaven. he is returning shortly! AMEN

                These are not my Words, these are the words of “THE AMEN, The faithful and true WITNESS, The beginning of God’s Creation” (Rev. 3:14) I am merely a Ladicean overcomer, via the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in me.
                I pray the Spirit to fill you with understanding. God bless.

                • Hi Dru and all,

                  It is fine if the Holy Spirit is moving through people, but he will never contradict his written word. If anything, if people are saying that they are having visions, then those visions must enhance what has already been written, not contradict it, else, how can we discern the truth from a lie? We could then be led away by every wind of doctrine, could we not? My stand is that, if someone says “Thus sayeth the Lord” then it better corralate to God’s already established word. Visions do not make the written word of God obsolete.

                  In regards to Jacob’s trouble, which is also the worlds trouble by the way, that time also spoken of by Jesus as “A time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning, til now, or shall ever be.” That time period I do not believe has come yet, as I do not believe that the first seal (Anitchrist) has been opened yet. I personally believe that we (The church) must be gone before that first seal is opened. I don’t believe that we will be here to see that man of lawlessness, that beast.

                  In regards to praying for guidence, these are things that I have been and continue to do daily. I trust in the written word of God and though the whole world abandon it, I will not be moved. If we cannot trust in the word of God, then we have no source of truth.

                  • I guess the question here could also be, when does the tribulation begin?

                    does it really say in the bible it begins with the seals??

                    the day of the lord seems to start at the 6th seal.

                    but maybe i am wrong.

                    I would prefer to NOT be here for any of it.

    • ==========================================================
      Ten 3½ year periods:
      ====================
      (1) Dan7:25(3.5yrs): Saints scattered under Antichrist’s power
      (2) Dan9:27(Late 3.5yrs): mid-sagittal(front-back split) Breach of Contract
      (3) Dan12:7(3.5yrs): …End of scattering Holy People’s power
      (4) Dan12:11(1290days): abomination setup +1290d = End of scattering
      (5) Dan12:12(1335days): abomination setup + 1335d = promised blessing
      (6) Rev11:2(42mths): Temple Outer Court trodden under foot by Gentiles
      (7) Rev11:3(1260days): 2 olive candlestick ordained witnesses prophesy
      (8) Rev12:6(1260days): wilderness woman fed
      (9) Rev12:14(3.5yrs): wilderness woman fed
      (10) Rev13:5(42mths): beast’s power duration
      ==========================================================
      45 currently believes all ten in Late3.5yrs.
      Don currently believes (7) in Early3.5yrs, (2) in Late3.5yrs, but the other 8??
      Al currently believes (7) in Early3.5yrs, (2) in Late3.5yrs, but the other 8??
      MA currently believes (8) in Early3.5yrs, (2), (3), (4), (5), (9), (10) in Late, + ??
      ==========================================================

      • Ok, I should have read the rest of the posts before asking you, my apologies. All of those so-called ten 3 1/2 year periods that you have listed above are referring to the same two 3 1/2 year periods, which make up that last seven years. All of those verses are simply going over the same time period. Daniel is what I call a “sister book” to Revelation, as both books present some of the same end-time information, both books complimenting each other. So again, to make my position clear, there are only two 3 1/2 year periods, which make up that last seven years.

        • Please read the last section:

          “Don currently believes (7) in Early3.5yrs, (2) in Late3.5yrs, but the other 8??”

          I already know that you place them in the 7yrs. I want to know WHERE within the seven years. I want to know exactly where you place every single one of the ten.

          Like this:
          (1) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (2) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (3) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (4) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (5) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (6) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (7) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (8) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (9) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs
          (10) Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs

          I’m looking for which you feel occur in the Early3.5yrs and why.

          Thanks.

          • (1) Dan 7:25(3.5yrs): Saints scattered under Antichrist’s power.

            Answer: Dan.7:25 is referring to the same event as Rev.13:5-7 which takes place from the middle of the seven until Christ returns at the end of last 3 1/2 years.

            (2) Dan9:27(Late 3.5yrs): mid-sagittal(front-back split) Breach of Contract.

            Answer: The covenant is made at the beginning of the first 3 1/2 years and is broken in middle of the seven year period marked by the setting up that abomination.

            (3) Dan12:7(3.5yrs): …End of scattering Holy People’s power

            Answer: The time, times and half a time when the power of the holy people is broken takes place from the time that the abomination is set up, which takes place at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years.

            (4) Dan12:11(1290days): abomination setup +1290d = End of scattering

            Answer: This is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period with Chist returning at the end of the 1,260 days (3 1/2 yers) with 30 days following his return of which nothng is mentioned as to what is taking place during those 30 days. I’m guessing judgment or some other business of his kingdom.

            (5) Dan12:12(1335days): abomination setup + 1335d = promised blessing

            Answer: This is also counted from the setting up of the abominatio in the middle of the seven with Jesus returning at the end of the 1,260 days with the reference the 30 and 45 days beyond Christ’s return. Regarding these days, there is just nothing mentioned regarding what is takng place during them, but as I said, it may be due to judgments and other kingdom business.

            (6) Rev11:2(42mths): Temple Outer Court trodden under foot by Gentiles.

            Answer: I’m not sure of the time of trampling, but seeing that it is mentioned in relation to the two witnesses, that it must be taking place during the same time period, which would be during the first 3 1/2 years leading up to the setting up of the abomination. On the otherhand, it could also fit the second 3 1/2 year period.

            (7) Rev11:3(1260days): 2 olive candlestick ordained witnesses prophesy

            Answer: I personally believe that the two witnesses time of prophecy takes place during the first 3 1/2 year period and that because there would be no one for them to witness to in Jersalem after the abomination has been set up due to the desolation having already taken place.

            (8) Rev12:6(1260days): wilderness woman fed
            (9) Rev12:14(3.5yrs): wilderness woman fed

            Answer: Both veres are speaking of the same woman (Israel)and the same event, with one being a summary and the other being more detailed, which takes place during the last 3 1/2 years from the time that he abomination is set up until Christ returns.

            (10) Rev13:5(42mths): beast’s power duration

            Answer: This also takes place during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period and is the same event mentioned in Dan.7:25. In revelation it is mentioned as 42 months and in Daniel it is referred to as a time, times and half a time. Time = 1 year, Times = 2 years, half a time = half a year, which totals 3 1/2 years. Notice the simularities in the two verses where in Daniel it says, “He will speak against the Most High.” And in Revelation is says, “He opened his mouth to blaspheme God.”

            I hope answered some of your questions.
            ==========================================================

          • these all look alike to me.

          • Hello all this Tuesday 2.7.12!
            ===========================================================
            Don, I now understand you believe (7) is in Early3.5yrs, (6) is probably in Early3.5yrs, and all other eight are in the Late3.5yrs. Thank you for clarifying. : )
            ====================================================
            Alienated, where do you stand in regards to these Ten 3.5yr periods?
            ===========================================================
            Marianne, you said; “these all look alike to me.” I am guessing you are saying:
            …70% chance: All ten occur in Late3.5yrs
            …30% chance: “these”(Don’s comments) look like they are all saying the same thing.
            Please clarify your position. Thank you.
            ===========================================================
            I appreciate each one of you for collaberating together, even with me also. I agape each of you.

            May heavenly Father bless each of we who seek his face concerning truth, FOREVER established in his unfailing Word. Amen.

            45

            • 45

              you said

              “Early3.5yr -or- Late3.5yrs”

              10 times.

              why did you repeat yourself 10 times?

              • =======================================================================================
                The ’10 times repeat’ directly references Ten Scripture References I listed out in my earlier post on 2/6/2012 @ 8:17pm, which if one scrolls up the page, is two posts up from where I repeated myself 10 times.

                From my post up above, on 2/5/2012 @ 10:28pm:
                =======================================
                Dan7:25(3.5yrs), Dan9:27(A3.5yr+B3.5yr), Dan12:7(3.5yrs), Dan12:11(1290days), Dan12:12(1335days)
                Rev11:2(42mths), Rev11:3(1260days), Rev12:6(1260days), Rev12:14(3.5yrs), Rev13:5(42mths)

                From my post up above, on 2/6/2012 @ 8:17pm:
                ====================
                Ten 3½ year periods:
                ====================
                (1) Dan7:25(3.5yrs): Saints scattered under Antichrist’s power
                (2) Dan9:27(Late 3.5yrs): mid-sagittal(front-back split) Breach of Contract
                (3) Dan12:7(3.5yrs): …End of scattering Holy People’s power
                (4) Dan12:11(1290days): abomination setup +1290d = End of scattering
                (5) Dan12:12(1335days): abomination setup + 1335d = promised blessing
                (6) Rev11:2(42mths): Temple Outer Court trodden under foot by Gentiles
                (7) Rev11:3(1260days): 2 olive candlestick ordained witnesses prophesy
                (8) Rev12:6(1260days): wilderness woman fed
                (9) Rev12:14(3.5yrs): wilderness woman fed
                (10) Rev13:5(42mths): beast’s power duration

                45: “I want to know exactly where you place every single one of the ten.”
                45: “I’m looking for which you feel occur in the Early3.5yrs and why.”

                I intentionally went into articulation excess because ‘vague ambiguity’ has impeded collaboration,
                i.e. getting each person to state their personal perception on each of the ten.

                I openly stated ‘my opinion’ without detail as to why, so as to avoid being accused of insensitively preaching my own ideas without consideration of valuable insights into scripture which others have acquired from Holy Spirit. Yet, how can I possibly know your perceptions (Don, Alienated, & Marianne) on these Ten scripture referenced (3.5yr Time Periods) unless you come forward and explicitly reveal each? As I stated before on 2/6/2012 @ 8:30pm:
                “Since scripture does not literally state timing with regard to Seals, Trumpets, & Bowls, then its best to start with defining each of the 3.5yr periods. Seem logical enough? : )”

                Truly hope this explanation adequately answer your question Marianne. Blessings,

                45
                =======================================================================================

            • 45,

              Nothing that you have said so far reflects my position. I don’t know why you continue to refer to the different verses regarding the 3 1/2 years as 10, 7 or 8. As I said, all of those verses are in reference to the same event. The majority of those verses of Scripture are speaking about that last 3 1/2 years from the time that the abomination is set up to the return of Christ as the end of the age. You are numbering them as though they were individual 3 1/2 year events, which they are not. Maybe this little graph will clear this issue up for you:

              | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seven years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|
              |======= 3 1/2 ===== abomination ====== 3 1/2 =====|

              That’s it! This is what you are dealing with regarding the seven year period, which is divided up onto two 3 1/2 year periods.

              • That graph is came out a little overlapping, but you get the picture.

              • Hi Don,

                Don: “I don’t know why you continue to refer to the different verses regarding the 3 1/2 years as 10, 7 or 8.”

                45: I labeled them [ 1 thru 10 ] because this is the order in which they are written in the Bible.

                Though your effort to clarify is very much appreciated, no graphic was necessary. I’ve studied GT for 30 years both from the Bible and Christian writings specifically about Revelation, nearly every one has the same diagram. Instead, I wanted your own personal take on which of the Ten appear in the Early3.5yrs, that’s all. And you have said (6) Rev11:2 & probably (7) Rev11:3 occur in the Early3.5yrs, thus you have stated your position clearly as I have. Now we await Alienated and Marianne to state their positions.

                Don: “As I said, ALL of those verses are in reference to the same event.”
                Don: “The MAJORITY of those verses of Scripture are speaking about that LAST 3 1/2 years”

                Yes, I am interested with the MINORITY which occur in the Early3.5yrs. By identifying where each of us differs, we can know collectively and comparatively where each person stands with regard to the other three persons.

                Shalom.

                • Hey 45,

                  I guess you happened to miss my post earlier today?

                  I am going to withdraw from the conversation, and spend the next couple of weeks researching that website that Al, (ashpert2) provided. But for what it’s worth, I am basically in agreement with Don regarding the times of events.

                  Good Luck to all. (I will keep my subscription open and will still be able to read what is going on.)

                  Shalom & Be Blessed.

                  • Hi alienated,

                    Thanks. Yes, I tuned in late and thus missed it, but just now scrolled down to the end and read it. You have my dental empathy, for I have two loose crowns in need of replacement which I have been dragging my feet about dropping $2k to replace them. Fortunately, no infection or pain has yet come. So good luck with all that. I think its true what say; “Nobody gets a speeding ticket while driving to the dentist’s office!” : )

                    Thank you for making your intent to temporarly withdraw, known.

                    Peace & blessings to you as well.

    • Since scripture does not literally state timing with regard to Seals, Trumpets, & Bowls, then its best to start with defining each of the 3.5yr periods. Seem logical enough? : )

  77. ==============================================================================================
    (cont. a little bit more explanation…)

    Consider now the below sequential set of Revelation verses with zero overlap:
    =============================================================
    Heaven scrolls up, mountains & islands move, then 2 billion people killed, then 3.5yrs pass, then a second 3.5yrs pass, then still another 3.5yrs pass, and only then does the 666 mark appear, then winepress occurs, and only then do the 7 wrathful vials begin, to then be followed by more and more… oceans die, mountains & islands disappear, to then be followed by Babylon being destroyed a third time AGAIN, to then be followed by a third winepress. What happens to the woman in the wilderness? Opps! After 3.5yrs she runs out of food only to be confronted with the 666 just now arriving to the world, sorry no protection here from 666 or Wrath! Thus we have a minimum of 10.5 years of problems, with [ S E V E R E ] astronomical and earthly trauma on both ends. What ever happened to the Dan9:27 midst of the 7 years, peace cut off?

    Rev 6:14 … heaven departed …scroll… rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 9:18b … third part of men killed, …
    Rev 11:3 …two witnesses… shall prophesy a 1260 days, …
    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street …
    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, … feed her there a 1260 days.
    Rev 12:14 …she …into her place …(3.5yrs), from the serpent’s face. Rev12:17c …testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.
    Rev 13:16 And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    Rev 14:8a And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; … (Babylon #1)
    Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, … great winepress of the wrath of God. (winepress #1)
    Rev 15:7 …7 angels 7 golden vials full of the wrath of God….
    Rev 16:3 … every living soul died in the sea.
    Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (winepress #2)
    Rev 16:19 …great Babylon …give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (Babylon #2)
    Rev 16:20 …every island fled away, and mountains were not found.
    Rev 18:19c …For in one hour she (Babylon) was ruined. (Babylon #3)
    Rev 19:15b … winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God. (winepress #3)
    ====================================================================
    Daniel sought a direct answer to the question of:
    How long will these End Time events take in normal earth calendar time?

    Dan 12:8-11 …then said I (Daniel), O my Lord,
    WHAT SHALL BE [ THE END ] OF THESE THINGS? v9 And he said…
    …FROM THE TIME that …the ABOMINATION that makes desolate SET UP, there shall be a 1290 days.

    The answer Daniel was given was not 1000 years, not 11 years, not 7 years, but only 1290 days, plus perhaps an additional 45 days unto 1335 days total.

    Are we in agreement concerning this? If not, please address what objection(s) you have and why you feel this way.

    Thank you very much.
    Blessings.
    ==============================================================================================

    • I mean, I’m rolling on the floor laughing so hard that I can’t breathe…!!!

      Blah ha ha ha ha ha hah ha ha ha… This unoverlapped sequence is just too much!

      Please take me home now blessed Lord Jesus, cause I don’t want come near that Great Tribulation if its gonna be 11+ years of nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after nightmare after …etc.

    • I think we all agree on what happens…disagreement is to when, and how it unfolds

  78. ==============================================================================================
    How bout this for an Unfolding? (Try not to quickly knee-jerk Rev8:1 @ the top, OK? Just read with open mind.)
    ==============================================================================================
    1st 3.5yrs of Tribulation — Peace – The Good Side
    =======================================
    Rev 3:10b … I also will keep thee(church in Philadelphia) from the HOUR(spiritual) of temptation, …to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the 7th seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of ½ HOUR(spiritual).
    Zec 6:5 …These(horses) are the 4 spirits(horses) of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
    Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw 4 angels(horses) standing on the 4 corners of the earth, holding the 4 winds(horses) of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. v2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the 4 angels(horses), to whom it was given to HURT the earth and the sea, v3 Saying, HURT NOT THE EARTH, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
    ==============================================================================================
    1st 3.5yrs of Tribulation — Peace – The Evil Side
    =======================================
    Dan 8:23 …a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    Dan 11:32a And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries…
    Rev 17:13 These(10 horn kings) have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their(10 horn kings) hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, …
    Dan 8:24 And his(little horn) power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he SHALL DESTROY WONDERFULLY…
    Dan 8:25 …through his(little horn) policy also he shall cause craft(deception) to prosper …by PEACE shall DESTROY MANY…
    ==============================================================================================
    2nd 3.5yrs of Tribulation – War Breaks Out
    =======================================
    Rev 6:2a And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow;…
    Rev 6:4 …red horse: and was given to him … take PEACE from the earth…given unto him a great sword.
    Zec 6:6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them…
    Jer 51:48 Then the heaven and the earth…shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north…
    Zec 6:8 …Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my Spirit in the north country.
    Isa 21:8,9 And he cried, A lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set in my ward whole nights: v9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen;…
    Rev 17:16 …10 horns(kings)…upon the beast, …hate the whore, …make her desolate…naked, …eat her flesh…burn her with fire.
    Dan 7:24 …10 horns…kings …arise: and another(little horn) shall rise after them… and he shall subdue 3(horns) kings(uproot).
    Dan 7:20 …10 horns …in his head, and the other which came up, and before whom 3 fell; even of that (little)horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    ==============================================================================================

    • =====================================================================================
      Rev 13:1 …beast rise up …having 7 heads and 10 horns, and …10 crowns G1238 ….
      Dan 7:24 …10 horns…kings …arise: and another(little horn) …shall subdue 3(horns) kings(uproot).
      Rev 12:3 …great red dragon, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and 7 crowns G1238 upon his heads.
      G1238 – the kingly ornament for the head, the crown

      Notice something here:
      Starting Rev13:1, Beast has 10 crowns – 3 crowns uprooted = 7 crowns just like the Great Red Dragon (Satan).

      Rev 6:2 …white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown G4735 was given unto him…
      G4735 – the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games
      =====================================================================================

    • ==============================================================================================
      Though the Dragon has 10 horns, he seems to keep his authority in 7 crowns like unto the 7 Spirits of God, meaning that the 3 extra crowns were deliberate fake (disposable) crowns!
      Rev 5:6 …Lamb as it had been slain, having 7 horns and 7 eyes, which are the 7 Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
      Rev 12:3 … and behold a great red dragon, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his heads.
      ==============================================================================================
      Scripture seems to go out of it way to point out the parallel between the ‘Living One’ and the ‘Dead One’.
      Rev 4:8 …Lord God Almighty, (1)which was, (2)and is, (3)and is to come.
      Rev 17:8 …beast that you saw (1)was, (2)and IS NOT; (3)and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, (4)and go into perdition…
      ==============================================================================================

  79. I’m coming in late to this, and I don’t know if anyone has written the following: It is my understanding the 7 horns are seven regions of power. Like economic power where one can not buy or sell unless they have the mark.

    Those horns are ruled by 10 kings who obey the Anti-christ in exchange for wealth, and power. We see it happening today in the CFR North American Union, and the global government, (I mean NATO) puting the Califate(sp) back together, the British destroyed in WW1.

    At present, we have the false Church. It is trying to bring people together by stating all faiths go to Heaven, and the world can come together through the Heart, or good Heart of helping your fellow man. That is an offshoot of the Universal Chruch desire for it’s follwers to come together through the Heart of the Queen of Heaven. Pure paganism.

    If anyone does not agree with me on the above, please explain how/why I am wrong.

    Cheers

    • Hi Leatherneck,

      It is the COR(Club of Rome), not the CFR(Council on Foreign Relations). It is not 7 horn regions of power yet, but 10 regions of power currently pending as the Rev17:12 Ten Kings will come into power during the 7 year tribulation. Daniel 7:8, 7:20, & 7:24 all three imply the little horn (the Antichrist) comes into the fulness of his power as a result of removing 3 of the below regional groups.

      The most likely groups are #1, #4, & #6 because they are isolated island continental areas whose land surface area totals 1/3 of the earth’s land (See Rev8:7 1/3 of Earth’s Trees are burned to the ground). Interestingly, group #4 is unique because it has a very unusual rarity in that it couples tiny Israel with Australia, thus if these 3 regional groups were removed with the exception of Israel, Antichrist could have that all to himself without encroaching in upon the other remaining 7 horn kings.

      =======================================================
      http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/nl683.htm (scroll half way down page for picture)
      =======================================================
      Club of Rome’s Ten Regional Groups.
      ============================
      Group 1 is North America. (USA & Canada)
      Group 2 is Western Europe.
      Group 3 is Japan.
      Group 4 is rest of the developed market economies which are Australia, Israel, New Zealand, Oceania, South Africa, and Tasmania.
      Group 5 is Eastern Europe.
      Group 6 is Latin America. (South & Central America)
      Group 7 is North Africa and the Middle East.
      Group 8 is main Africa.
      Group 9 is South and Southeast Asia.
      Group 10 is Centrally planned Asia which is Mongolia, North Korea, North Vietnam, and People’s Republic of China.
      =======================================================
      I have no idea if the Club of Rome will be around prior to the Tribulation, thus this collection of data potentially could shift to another world organization.
      =======================================================

  80. Hey Don,

    There was no “reply” button to click above.

    Good for you on the House bud. “Congratulations!”
    I hope that “Spook and Gizmo” approve. LOL.

    Be Blessed.

  81. To All,

    I would like to introduce an article into your discussions. It is detailed and fairly long. It touches on just about everything you are discussing but with a somewhat different outcome. I would hope that since all of you have spent so much time and energy to write out at great length what your beliefs are, that you would give this the attention it is due. At the least it should add to and take away from some of your beliefs.

    http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/08/ten-days-of-awe-leading-up-to-yom.html

    Be Blessed in Mashyiac

    • Hi all,

      Firstly, I would like to thank those that offered their sympathy’s, (and suggestions) in regards to my stupid tooth-ache!
      I foresee another hole in my head in the very near future. LOL. (Leave the comments in the peanut gallery thank you.)

      But this is in response to Al.

      Thanks for the link Al.
      Regarding this topic, it is not only very informative, it is well reasoned as well, as is, (so far) the rest of her website.
      I would suggest that all spend some time there. (Marianne……)
      A Pre-Tribulation rapture, the distinction between the Church and the Saints, clarity on the 144,000 etc. are all addressed.

      Thanks again Al.
      Be Blessed.

      I will be absent from here for a period of time, as I foresee spending a significant amount of time there over the next little while. Until then, I wish you all Shalom in Yeshua HaMashiach.

    • Hello ashupert2,

      Forgive me for my negitivity, but the fact that you are offering a website instead of providing information based on your own personal studies sends up a red flag for me. Because of the many web-sties and books that are written by men, it seems that many today rely upon their findings and adopt their teachings instead of doing their own studies and basing the truth from the word of God. And because of this, you have people following after the likes of Rob Bell who would have us believe that there is no hell and that love wins and everyone goes to heaven or Hank Hannagraff who would have his followers believe that the book of revelation is to be considered hyperbole, that is, it is not to be taken literally and is to be considered as exaggerated. As far as I am concerned people running to and fro after these teachers and websites is fulfulling the following prophecy:

      “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Insteaad, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. The will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” (2 Tim.4:3-)

      There is nothing wrong with reading what others have expounded on regarding the word of God as long as you are basing what they are teaching upon the word of God itself and not vise versa. Because of the lack of personal study, it is the visa versa that people are adopting and because of this many are being led astray. All I’m saying is that we ought to do our own studies of the word of God and come to our conclusions based on our own exhaustive study of His word.

    • ================================================================================================================
      45’s Review of the Webpage
      ================================================================================================================
      Correct statement taken from the website: “The word adulterate in the dictionary means ‘to make impure by admixture’.”

      There is a mixture of truth and error on the page. The truth part of it is good, IF you can discern the difference. One of the reasons I use the name Jesus in my posts, instead of the more proper Yehoshua, is to not attempt to persuade by reason of quasi-Hebrew proficiency. Actually, she should use YHVH instead of YHWH, but no matter. Rather than bringing up good things which ARE said on the website, I chose to address a sampling of eleven errors or deficiencies. The pictures aren’t too bad, and the eclectic approach is good, however my recommendation is that one proceed which caution. What she has to offer is better than most religious websites.
      ================================================================================================================ (1) “Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) who is the mother of us all according to Galatians 4:26 and Jerusalem “died” in the Roman Seige in 70 A.D.”
      45: Wrong. Paul was contrasting between the earthly Jerusalem in Gal 4:25 and the Heavenly Jerusalem which will come down in Rev 21:10.
      Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS…
      Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem WHICH IS ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all.
      ================================================================================================================ (2) “Isaac is sad because of the loss of his mother, just as Messiah wept over Mother Jerusalem in Matthew 23:36-38.”
      45: Wrong on 2 points. Jesus is talking about EARTHLY Jerusalem. Jesus describes HIMSELF to be the mother of earthly Jerusalem.
      Mat 23:37a O Jerusalem…that kills… how often would I have gathered …as a hen gathers her chickens…
      ================================================================================================================ (3) “Here is a prophetic picture of the bridegroom Messiah SENDING gifts of PRECIOUS STONES and a wedding garment in advance for his bride BEFORE HE ARRIVES via the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 54:10-11 prophecies about the day when Messiah will restore Yisra’el as his bride and he will give her jewels.”
      45: Wrong on 2 points. It is Isaiah54:11,12 This passage is about the Rev 21:10 New Heavenly Jerusalem, not about giving gifts to earthly people.
      Isa 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me… (End of this age.)
      Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed… (6th Seal end of this age)
      Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colors, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
      Isa 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
      ================================================================================================================ (4) “Out of the “seven congregations” in the first three chapters of Revelation, only “two candlesticks” (Revelation 1:20 & Revelation 11:4) were found faithful (Smyrna & Philadelphia).”
      45: Wrong. He is saying Smyrna equates to the whole 7 churches! He also is saying Philadelphia equates to Elijah + Moses! (Enoch possibly)
      Rev 1:20 …and the 7 candlesticks which thou saw are the 7 churches.
      Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
      Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
      Zec 4:11 …What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick (having 7 lamps) and upon the left side thereof?
      Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
      ================================================================================================================ (5) “There are two brides that Ya’aqob (Jacob) married. Leah represents 10-Tribe Ephraim or Gentiles (typified in the heifer or cow) and Rachel represents 2-House YaHuW’dah (Judah or Jews) typified in the lambs.”
      45: Wrong. Has it exactly backwards. Leah gave birth to Judah (Today’s Jews of geographic Israel). Rachel gave birth to Joseph, Ephraims’ father. What he has somewhat correct is that Ephraim is mixed with the Gentiles.
      ================================================================================================================ (6) “This time period lasts for 3.5 years or 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3). However, the final “ten days” of this time of trouble is more accurately depicted as a time of “female rivalry” between two “sister brides.” The Apostle Sha’ul hinted about this rivalry in Romans 11:11 where he prophesies about how the salvation of Gentiles (Leah) is meant to provoke Yisra’el (Jews or Rachel) to jealousy.”
      45: Wrong. There is zero scriptural hint that the ten days 1251 unto 1260 will be the ten days of awe, or ten days of female rivalry.
      45: Wrong. If correct, then both sisters would be murdered by the beast at the 1260th day, never living to see Daniel’s 1290 or 1335 days.
      Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
      Rev 11:7,8 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast …shall …kill them. v8 And their dead bodies…
      ================================================================================================================
      (7) “Genesis 49:31 we find out that Leah was buried with Jacob because Leah represents the bride who was unloved.”
      45: Wrong. Six patriachs/matriachs were buried together, except Rachel only for near the ground where Rachel was buried, both King David and Jesus were born in Bethlehem Ephratah (Ephraim Soil). The ‘six’ together represents the 6000yrs of ‘work’, but Rachel represents the Millennial reign of Christ, that 1000yrs of peace, the Great Sabbath. Leah’s being unloved has nothing to do with were she was buried.
      Gen 49:31 There they buried [1]Abraham and [2]Sarah his wife; there they buried [3]Isaac and [4]Rebekah his wife; and there I buried [5]Leah. (and [6]Jacob also, all six in the same cave.)
      ================================================================================================================
      (8) “But Rachel represents the foolish virgins because she hid her idols (Genesis 31:32) and she did not become buried with Jacob.”
      45: Wrong. This is a half-truth. Rachel’s seed is Ephraim, and Ephraim is idolatry laden, however Hosea speaks of a righteous Ephraim remnant.
      ================================================================================================================ (9) “1,260 days as seen in Daniel 12:7-11 and this will be followed by an additional “ten days of tribulation” or “ten days of awe” (trouble) that she will have to go through in order to be saved.”
      45: Wrong. There is absolutely no scriptural support for 1260days plus 10 days! The only thing, remotely close to the idea of salvation going past the 1260days, is the BLESSING which is promised 75days later at the 1335th day.
      Dan 12:12 Blessed(happiness) is he that waits, and comes to the 1335 days.
      ================================================================================================================ (10) “two overcoming Assemblies of Smyrna & Philadelphia BECAUSE they have ‘ears to hear’”
      45: Wrong. Nothing is said about either of these two church’s ‘ears’ that was not said to ALL SEVEN churches.
      Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches….
      Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches….
      Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches….
      Rev 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
      Rev 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
      Rev 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
      Rev 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
      ================================================================================================================ (11) http://www.yrm.org/whatisbiblicalnewmoon.htm link from the same webpage.
      Does ‘New’ Mean ‘Full’? The Hebrew word levanah meaning white, occurs three times in the Hebrew text and poetically refers to the white brilliance of the full moon (see Song of Solomon 6:10; Isa. 24:23; 30:26). And the Hebrew word kehseh, meaning fullness, is twice translated full moon (Ps. 81:3; Prov. 7:20). Chodesh, on the other hand, refers to the new moon and is never used for full moon.
      45: He says nothing of Ps81:3 being a lunar eclipse, which is a form of Full Moon which temporarily becomes a Blood Red New Moon.
      ================================================================================================================

      • 45,

        I am glad you responded, even though you chose the negative path to go down. But, that is okay. I was hoping to get Alienated’s comments so I could respond to both at the same time. I will give him a day or so and see if I hear from him. If not, I will respond to what you have said and catch up on his comments later. My problem is time right now, but I will get back with you by the weekend.

        Be Blessed

      • ashupert2,

        As I said at the top of my post: “…on the page. The truth part of it is good, IF…” so it was only negative in the sense of requiring extra leg work to sift through some problem areas. My heavy use of the word ‘Wrong’ was NOT meant to blacklist her page, but rather to highlight areas in need of mending.

        To rephrase what I liked, her strong curiosity has attempted to tackle MANY important parts of scripture addressing the endtime big picture, several of which are not commonly mentioned. I liked that aspect very much and thus bookmarked her page in my browser favorites where I can go back to sift through some more of what she has to say at some later point in the future.

        I originally hoped my post here, the effort to critique her page with considerable detail, would be not viewed as totally negative criticism, but rather viewed as stimulus to examine deeper some of these noteworthy good points she brought up.

        It was a good idea ashupert2 for you to post the link. Thanks.
        Blessings to you also.

      • Further comment on (5) & (8) listed in my further above post. ============================================================================================
        (5) “There are two brides that Ya’aqob (Jacob) married. Leah represents 10-Tribe Ephraim or Gentiles (typified in the heifer or cow) and Rachel represents 2-House YaHuW’dah (Judah or Jews) typified in the lambs.”
        45: Has it exactly backwards. Leah gave birth to Judah (Today’s Jews of geographic Israel).
        Rachel gave birth to Joseph, Ephraims’ father. What he has somewhat correct is that Ephraim is mixed with the Gentiles.
        ============================================================================================
        Gen 49:9 Judah is a LION’S whelp …he couched as a LION, and as an old LION… sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a LAWGIVER from between his feet, until Shiloh come…
        Deu 33:17 His(Joseph’s) glory is like the firstling of his BULLOCK …push …to the ends of the earth…10,000s of Ephraim, and 1,000s of Manasseh.
        Hos 10:11 And Ephraim a HEIFER taught, …Ephraim to RIDE; Judah shall PLOW, and Jacob shall BREAK his clods.
        Zec 9:13 When I have bent Judah(the Bow) for me, filled the bow with Ephraim(the Arrow), and raised up thy sons, O Zion…
        ============================================================================================
        Leah (weary, tired) birthed Judah (Lion, Lawgiver). Judah represents the older brother, Torah and Jerusalem observant, weary over the centuries.

        Rachel (ewe female lamb) birthed Joseph (Bullock), who birthed Ephraim (Heifer, Arrow). Ephraim is the idolatry prodigal youngest son. Prodigal youngest son: Rachel younger sister, Joseph 11th son, Ephraim youngest son, King David youngest son born in Ephratah. Prodigal idolatrous son: Rachel idols, Joseph’s fabulous dream, Ephraim’s Hosea idolatry, King David’s adultery problem. Though David was of Judah, strong identification is also with Rachel: handsome, shepherd, youngest, location, double portion of trials and blessings.

        Ephraim (Heifer, Arrow, female),
        ———-rides on top of———-
        Judah (Lion, Bow, Lawgiver, male).
        =====================================
        From Hos10:11, we can determine that of the hundreds of millions of descendants of these two currently living today (Abraham’s seed filling the whole earth), there are both good and bad of each. The best part each are: (1) Ephraim: much of the godly Christians extending into worldwide missions; but (2) Judah: Torah observant orthodoxy who love the law and scripture and feel personally obligated to fix the ills of a broken world.
        But exclusively focusing on the totally bad of each, the very worst part of (1) Ephraim would be the daughter of Babylon riding on top, while the very worst part of (2) Judah would be Beast which Ephraim rides on.

  82. Hi Don,

    It is good to hear from you. I am sorry you feel that way. I have had many discusssions with you in the past as well as with many others. To my knowledge I have never deferred to a website to do the talking for my beliefs. I have voiced my beliefs without hesitation even tough they run contrary to contemporay Christian theology. I believe this is the first time I have ever opted out for a teaching website. It is done well and is what I have basically believed, but with reams of added information. I thank my Elohim that I am not so arrogant to believe that all knowledge has to originate as “my” personal revelation before I can share it. Everyone can can either accept or reject what is said. YHWH will certify His Word as to its merit and truth. That is not my responsibility. If someone has said something better than I can, I will defer to that. I hope for you only the best my brother in love, wisdom, understanding, and knowlege.

    Be Blessed

  83. Howdy all,

    The link that Al had posted was very interesting. However after spending the last 10 hours in reading some of her other interpretations, I felt that there was some blatant inaccuracies. Which then led me to believe, that she is merely on the same journey that we are on.

    I still can’t participate though, not with this, “THROB-THROB-THROB” in my mouth.
    So have fun without me, and as Arnold would say…….. “I’ll be back.” I just don’t know when.

    Shalom

  84. Alienated,

    When you are able, would like to know what the” blatant inaccuracies” are that you came across. No one is perfect and has 100% of the truth; but for my curiosity I would like to know what you found to be inaccurate.

    Hope your dental problem gets better.

    Be Blessed

  85. Hey 45,

    Hope all is going well with you. I meant to get this back to you as I said I would, but came up against a family emergency that had to be taken care of. I wanted to state up front that this is not about arguing specific points in different interpretations of scripture. I believe that we are in a very unique time in history, where Yah is taking the blindfolds off and through revelation of Ruach HaKodesh, is giving His people knowledge of who we are in relation to each other, bringing us together as one, and preparing us for His return. Much as He told Daniel that the prophecy he was given would be sealed until the time of the end, so too will He reveal that His people are all Israel, with no distinctions. The picture of a church on one side and a synagogue on the other is being done away by the hand of Yah. I believe that those who cling to such things will suffer in all of this.

    “Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) who is the mother of us all according to Galatians 4:26 and Jerusalem “died” in the Roman Seige in 70 A.D.”
    45: Wrong. Paul was contrasting between the earthly Jerusalem in Gal 4:25 and the Heavenly Jerusalem which will come down in Rev 21:10.
    Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS…
    Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem WHICH IS ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all.
    ____________
    Response-What I read is this; ( the New Jerusalem) who is the mother of us all according to Galatians 4:26 and( earthly) Jerusalem died in the Roman seige in 70 A.D. She left this statement somewhat ambiguous but that does not change the essence of what she is alluding to. She is showing the transition from the Mosaic Covenant (earthly Jerusalem-the Temple) to the Renewed Covenant (New Jerusalem). As we write things we understand what we are saying but many times don’t complete our thoughts completely on paper requiring additional information for those who do not understand the essence of the message that is being conveyed.

    “Isaac is sad because of the loss of his mother, just as Messiah wept over Mother Jerusalem in Matthew 23:36-38.”
    45: Wrong on 2 points. Jesus is talking about EARTHLY Jerusalem. Jesus describes HIMSELF to be the mother of earthly Jerusalem.
    Mat 23:37a O Jerusalem…that kills… how often would I have gathered …as a hen gathers her chickens…
    Response;

    Jeremiah Meets Mother Zion

    “One day Jeremiah the prophet was walking up the hills towards Jerusalem, which was desolate and in ruins. He lifted up his eyes and he saw a woman sitting on the top of the mountain, where the Beth Hamikdosh stood only a short time ago in all its glory. The woman was dressed in black and her hair was disheveled, like that of a woman in mourning. She was weeping and lamenting; who could comfort her? Jeremiah himself was weeping sorrowfully over the destruction of the Beth Hamikdosh, yet he approached the woman and said to her: “If you are human, speak to me; if you are a ghost, away with thee.”
    The woman raised her tearful eyes, and replied, “Don’t you recognize me? I was a happy wife, and the mother of seven children. The father of my children has left me and gone overseas. Then came a messenger with evil tidings: ‘Your house has collapsed and buried your children in the ruins.’ For whom shall I mourn first, for my children or for my husband?”
    In the midst of his own grief, Jeremiah’s heart was filled with compassion for the heartbroken woman, and he tried to comfort her, saying: “My heart is filled with sorrow for you; but is your lot worse than that of Mother Zion? See what happened to Jerusalem; it has become a breeding place for the beasts of the field!”
    Replied the woman, “I am your Mother Zion; I am the unhappy Mother of Seven.”
    Said Jeremiah to her, “Your fate seems to be like that of Iyov (Job); Iyov lost his sons and daughters, and you have lost yours; Iyov lost all his precious possessions, and so did you; Iyov was thrown onto the dust-heap, and so were you. But take heart from Iyov, for as Iyov was restored to even greater glory than ever before, and was fully comforted and recompensed for his suffering, so will you be restored and comforted; Iyov’s children were increased twofold, and so will yours; Iyov’s wealth was doubled in the end, so will yours; Iyov was lifted from the dust-heap to a place of honor, and so will you, for thus G-d has declared, ‘Shake off the dust, rise and sit up, O Jerusalem! A man of flesh and blood built thee, and a man of flesh and blood destroyed thee. But in the future I myself will build thee, and you shall never be destroyed again.’ And so it is also written, ‘G-d will build Jerusalem, and He will gather in the exiles of Israel.”

    This is not scripture, but a story written by the Jews that shows the Mother-child relationship between Israel and Jerusalem!!!!

    “Who exactly makes up Zion, YAHWEH’S Woman, or Heavenly Organization? How do we determine who makes up Zion? In Isaiah 2:3, Revised Standard Version (R.S.V.), it states:”
    For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of YAHWEH from Jerusalem.

    Response; Even earthly Jerusalem (Zion) was considered Mother to Israel.

    (3)“Here is a prophetic picture of the bridegroom Messiah SENDING gifts of PRECIOUS STONES and a wedding garment in advance for his bride BEFORE HE ARRIVES via the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 54:10-11 prophecies about the day when Messiah will restore Yisra’el as his bride and he will give her jewels.”
    45: Wrong on 2 points. It is Isaiah54:11,12 This passage is about the Rev 21:10 New Heavenly Jerusalem, not about giving gifts to earthly people.
    Isa 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me… (End of this age.)
    Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed… (6th Seal end of this age)
    Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colors, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
    Isa 54:12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

    Response:
    Isaiah 54:10- For the mountains shall depart and the hills shall be removed; but my chesed shall not depart from you again, neither shall the brit of My shalom be removed, says YHWH that has rachamim on you.
    Isaiah 54:11- O you afflicted, tossed with storms, and Lo-Ruchamah-Not Comforted, (Think Hosea 1:6) see, I will lay your stones with fair colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires.

    This is commentary out of a Messianic Jewish bible for verse 10- “Efrayim will never again experience separation and rejection by YHWH, due to the cutting of the everlasting Renewed Covenant, by the Suffering Servant our Yahshua.”

    This is commentary for verse 11-“YHWH in essence is saying: I will reveal myself to you, by many stones, or “sefirot-safiryim,” or many manifestations of My love and no longer will hide from you.”

    I understand the similarity of some of the wording in relation to the description of the New Jerusalem, but Isaiah is not talking about a city here. Go back to verse 9 …..”so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you again.” He is talking about His people in these verses. If the people of Yah are in a place of disobedience and rebellion, then also is Jerusalem afflicted. Conversely, if the people of Yah are obedient and compliant to His Word, then are they righteous and Jerusalem will be seen as righteous. The Word has depth to it and is endless in the wisdom and understanding it provides. Yah is not out to save rocks, it is His people He is referring to. The condition of the city will reflect the condition of the people living there. That is the reason the New Jerusalem will be adorned with precious metals and stones, for His people will be righteous through Messiah.

    (4) “Out of the “seven congregations” in the first three chapters of Revelation, only “two candlesticks” (Revelation 1:20 & Revelation 11:4) were found faithful (Smyrna & Philadelphia).”
    45: Wrong. He is saying Smyrna equates to the whole 7 churches! He also is saying Philadelphia equates to Elijah + Moses! (Enoch possibly)
    Rev 1:20 …and the 7 candlesticks which thou saw are the 7 churches.
    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Zec 4:11 …What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick (having 7 lamps) and upon the left side thereof?
    Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
    _____
    Response: Revelation 1:20 stated it correctly; 7 candlesticks=7 assemblies. How do you draw from that; 1 candlestick=7 assemblies (groups of believers)? Following your logic, then ; 2 candlesticks=14 assemblies (groups of believers). This is nothing but dispensationalism. There is nothing in any of the scriptures you referred to that alluded to the fact that one candlestick refers to seven different assemblies. We all understand that a Menorah has seven candles on it, but is inconsequential to what is being said here. Following the interpretation in Rev 1:20-one candlestick equates to one assembly. I tend to believe that the fact that there are seven candles on each candlestick refers more to their right standing with the Father, the number seven being the number for perfection (His will, His choice, His stamp of approval). Some believe that the seven candles of the Menorah are a reference to the 7 day week with the Sabbath in the middle.
    The two olive trees are illustrated by Paul in Romans. The cultivated olive tree being Israel, the believing Jews, while the uncultivated olive tree being the gentile nations, Ephraim. Zechariah shows them as two trees being connected, while Paul shows them as separate, but the believing Gentiles being grafted into the Cultivated Olive tree of Israel, making it a single olive tree. This represents those of Ephraim (Gentile Converts) with Judah (ethnic Jews) coming together to spread the word of salvation and the restoration of Israel, Jew and Gentile=One new man. This also refers to two individuals, most likely Moses (who represents the Torah), an ethnic Jew, and Elijah (who represents the prophets), a gentile from the nations. Everyone believes what they will in all of this. For nearly 1700 years the all gentile church has pretty much decided what the scriptures meant. Most things were seen and interpreted in a way that was pro Christian and anti-Israel. It is seen in the anti-Semitic course the church has been on through the centuries. Since 1948, many in the church are starting to realize that the Jews and Gentiles are actually brothers, though anti-Semitism stills run deep. The Catholic church, through the Pope, finally in the recent past apologized for their treatment of the Jews throughout the history of the church. Since 1948, millions of Jews have come to faith in Messiah Yahshua while keeping the commandments, with some Christians (Ephraim) starting to realize that we are meant to be joined with our brothers, the believing Jews(Judah) to become one people; The Israel of Yah. The Messianics, both Jew and gentile are starting to understand the hidden things of scripture that reveals His end time plan for His people. This is the Key of David to unlock the scriptures to guide us in these last days. But there is much resistance to this on both sides. Many Messianic Jewish assemblies still see Gentiles as being inferior, while the majority of the Church still thinks they have it right and Jews need to become Christians. The ones who will heed the message will be those who are willing to lay down their preconceived identities and bad theology to become One New Man, Jew and Gentile, in the Messiah! (according to Paul in Ephesians). This is what Yom Kippur is all about.

    5) “There are two brides that Ya’aqob (Jacob) married. Leah represents 10-Tribe Ephraim or Gentiles (typified in the heifer or cow) and Rachel represents 2-House YaHuW’dah (Judah or Jews) typified in the lambs.”
    45: Wrong. Has it exactly backwards. Leah gave birth to Judah (Today’s Jews of geographic Israel). Rachel gave birth to Joseph, Ephraims’ father. What he has somewhat correct is that Ephraim is mixed with the Gentiles.

    Response;
    The author is speaking here of only the plight of Rebecca compared to Leah. The fact of who their biological children are has no bearing on any of this. If you were tracing the lineage of a certain person and wanted to know historically who their ancestors were or some other information, you would have a valid point. But that is not what she is talking about here. You are talking on a different level than what she is:
    Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or – simpler – interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

    • Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — “plain” (“simple”) or the direct meaning[1].
    • Remez (רֶמֶז) — “hints” or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
    • Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (“seek”) — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
    • Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in ‘bone’) — “secret” (“mystery”) or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

    The author is speaking on at least the Remez and Derash levels of interpretation, while you are trying to critique her work from the Peshat-“plain (simple) level of interpretation. You’ve heard the term “comparing apples to oranges”, that is what I see you doing. She is conveying concepts through things that are analogous. You are judging this on strict literalism. There are places for that, but I don’t believe this is that place. There is a precedence for this type of thinking and understanding. The following is from Luke just after Yahshua gave the parable of the sower:

    “As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
    Then his disciples asked him, “What does this parable mean?”
    He said, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, but to the rest in parables; that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.”

    (6) “This time period lasts for 3.5 years or 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3). However, the final “ten days” of this time of trouble is more accurately depicted as a time of “female rivalry” between two “sister brides.” The Apostle Sha’ul hinted about this rivalry in Romans 11:11 where he prophesies about how the salvation of Gentiles (Leah) is meant to provoke Yisra’el (Jews or Rachel) to jealousy.”
    45: Wrong. There is zero scriptural hint that the ten days 1251 unto 1260 will be the ten days of awe, or ten days of female rivalry.
    45: Wrong. If correct, then both sisters would be murdered by the beast at the 1260th day, never living to see Daniel’s 1290 or 1335 days.
    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:7,8 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast …shall …kill them. v8 And their dead bodies…

    Response;

    The ten days of awe are the 10 days between Feast of Trumpets (Tishrei 1) and Day of Atonement (Tisheri 10); they are there whether you realize it or not. I enclose the following only to show how the 10 days figures into the completion of the 7 year period.

    “The reason they believe this to be so is that the timespan encompassing the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement when they are seven years apart and when they comprise 86 moons on the metonic cycle, (and not 87 moons), is 2550 days.
    86 moons = 86 x 29.530589 days + “10 DAYS” (emphasis mine) = 2550 days (inclusive). This is the timespan that begins on Tishrei 1 in year X and extends out seven years to Tishrei 10 on year X + 7.
    2550 days is a very significant time period. This is precisely the timespan of the 70th week of Daniel along with the 30 day extension which goes out beyond the 1260 day second half of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks to reach the 1290 days we see prophesied by Daniel. (Dan.12:11). 1260 days + 1290 days = 2550 days exactly.
    This is quite remarkable. The timespan of Daniel’s 70th Week with its 30 day extension, appears to be marked out precisely by the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement seven years later. This is for those seven year Tishrei to Tishrei timespans that see 86 and not 87 moons. This a very significant discovery. It is not likely to be a coincidence.
    The calculations of these feast to feast timespans across 86 moons and seven years are uncomplicated and easily verifiable. They can be confirmed quite readily using the new moon lunar data from the United States Naval Observatory

    (7) “Genesis 49:31 we find out that Leah was buried with Jacob because Leah represents the bride who was unloved.”
    45: Wrong. Six patriachs/matriachs were buried together, except Rachel only for near the ground where Rachel was buried, both King David and Jesus were born in Bethlehem Ephratah (Ephraim Soil). The ‘six’ together represents the 6000yrs of ‘work’, but Rachel represents the Millennial reign of Christ, that 1000yrs of peace, the Great Sabbath. Leah’s being unloved has nothing to do with were she was buried.
    Gen 49:31 There they buried [1]Abraham and [2]Sarah his wife; there they buried [3]Isaac and [4]Rebekah his wife; and there I buried [5]Leah. (and [6]Jacob also, all six in the same cave.)

    Response;

    Your response has nothing in common with her statement. Your response is dealing with literal historical information and is correct along with information that is analogous, but having no direct correlation to what she is saying. She is not trying to invalidate true information that others have proposed, but what she is doing is taking the events in the lives of Leah and Rachel, and showing how they give a picture of end time events concerning Judah and Ephraim. No one is saying that your response is wrong. The facts that you put forth and the analogy you draw are well taken. But that does not mean that her analogy is therefore wrong. There are different levels of understanding and we need to be mindful of that. If not, we will suffer from a lack of revelation that Ruach HaKodesh desires to impart to the people of Yah in these last days.

    (8) “But Rachel represents the foolish virgins because she hid her idols (Genesis 31:32) and she did not become buried with Jacob.”
    45: Wrong. This is a half-truth. Rachel’s seed is Ephraim, and Ephraim is idolatry laden, however Hosea speaks of a righteous Ephraim remnant.

    Response;

    Almost every aspect of Leah’s life says she is analogous with Ephraim and almost every aspect of Rachel’s life shows she is analogous with Judah. This goes back to #5. We are not talking about their biological children

    (9) “1,260 days as seen in Daniel 12:7-11 and this will be followed by an additional “ten days of tribulation” or “ten days of awe” (trouble) that she will have to go through in order to be saved.”
    45: Wrong. There is absolutely no scriptural support for 1260days plus 10 days! The only thing, remotely close to the idea of salvation going past the 1260days, is the BLESSING which is promised 75days later at the 1335th day. Dan 12:12 Blessed(happiness) is he that waits, and comes to the 1335 days..

    Response;
    This is basically how the Jews view the ten days between the Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement; everyone whose name is written in the Book of Life will be caught up to meet Messiah in the air on the Feast of Trumpets toward the end of the 1260 Days, but the Book of Life not sealed at that time. The Book is left unsealed until Yom Kippur, 10 days later. The names of those who are saved out of these 10 days of tribulation will be added in the Book of Life. The time from Elul 1 to Tishri 10 (40 days) is called the Days of Teshuvah , which means to return. The days of repentance last until Yom Kippur (Tisheri 10).

    (10) “two overcoming Assemblies of Smyrna & Philadelphia BECAUSE they have ‘ears to hear’”
    45: Wrong. Nothing is said about either of these two church’s ‘ears’ that was not said to ALL SEVEN churches.
    Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches….
    Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches….
    Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches….
    Rev 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    Rev 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    Rev 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    Rev 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Response;

    These Two Assemblies were found to be guiltless. The other five, though having some good things said about them, we’re found lacking. Though they all have ‘ears’ it seems that only two were actually hearing “all”that was being said and then doing it.

    This is part of the response from #2:
    “As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

    Then his disciples asked him, “What does this parable mean?”
    He said, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, but to the rest in parables; that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.”

    Proverbs 25:2
    It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
    But the glory of kings to search out a matter.

    Be Blessed in Messiah

    • Al my brother,

      Regarding that of your “first” paragraph above.
      You are right.

      The reason that most of the Word, (not just that of Revelation only), is not fully understood, is because God The Father wanted it that way, to shift the Wheat from the Chaff.

      DANIEL 12:9, (10)* AND REV. 10:4. ARE WHY NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE “BOOK OF REVELATION”, BUT GOD HAS MADE IT AVAILABLE TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THE SPIRIT NOW, BECAUSE OF REV. 1:3 AND ITS ASSOCIATION TO REV.22:10. THROUGH TO 21.
      THE “TIME HAD TO BE AT HAND” FOR THE UNDERSTANDING TO BEGIN!!
      THIS UNDERSTANDING NOW EXPLAINS REV. 10:11. BECAUSE JOHN IS NOW IN ESSENCE PROPHESIZING AGAIN!

      I am not sure if you have learned about my experiences in looking after your family emergency, (which I pray is alright), but I have just had my 40 year anniversary in being Yeshua’s follower on March 15th. this year. 40 days later, I started to lose my appetite and also started to have Visions. Now it appears that I am on (apparently) a 40 day fast.
      I couldn’t even begin to describe to you a portion of what has been revealed while this has been happening. It has been an amazing blessing of which I am deeply humbled.

      Check out my posts on “Demons, Bug’s or People” and recently on “Harvest times in the last days”.
      The time is short.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach our King
      Shalom.

      • Al,

        I will also add this as well, (and because of it, I have experienced disbelief by many, like Yeshua in Matthew 13:57.) Though many have received it as well, with an open heart.
        I will copy and paste some of what I said to those that received the fist email. Sorry for the capitalization. It starts with the last of my Visions that I had been telling another brother about. It occurred Monday the 23rd. @ 3:30 am.

        THE VERSE THAT SCREAMED AT ME IN THE VISION WAS REVELATION 1:3.!

        “BLESSED IS HE THAT READETH, AND THEY THAT HEAR THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, AND KEEP THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN THEREIN; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.”

        THE LAST 5 WORDS WERE LARGER THAN ALL THE REST IN THE VISION, AND WERE “VIBRATING AND SHIMMERING” AND I HEARD THEM SCREAMED OUT LOUD WITH THE VOICE OF AUTHORITY!

        THE SPIRIT HAS HAD ME BREAKING DOWN THE TEXT OF REVELATION AND AS I HAD TOLD YOU, INSTEAD OF IT BEING DEAD IT HAS COME ALIVE, AND HE HAD ME JUST GO THROUGH REV. CHAPTER 1, (THOUGH I WAS EXHAUSTED), YESTERDAY, JUST BEFORE HAVING TO TRY AND GET SOME SLEEP.

        WHAT WAS SIMPLY TRANSLATED IN DEAD TEXT AS “FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND” IN THE KING JAMES AT THE END OF VERSE 3, SHOULD HAVE BEEN, OR “IS NOW” TRANSLATED AS “FOR THE TIME WHEN THINGS ARE BROUGHT TO CRISIS, AND THE DECISIVE EPOCH THAT THOSE THAT ARE CLOSE TO GOD HAVE WAITED FOR IS NOW!”

        VERSE 1:7. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH “AND THEY [ALSO] WHICH PIERCED HIM” IT MEANS INSTEAD, IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEFINITIONS, AND THE DEFINITIONS OF THE WORD ORIGINS, BASICALLY, “THOSE THAT DIDN’T ACCEPT YESHUA AS THEIR SAVIOR SERIOUSLY!”
        IT IS TIME FOR THE “PROVEN AND FAITHFUL NEW CREATION” TO LEAVE AND FOR “EVERYONE ELSE” TO STAY PERIOD.

        THAT WAS ONE OF MY REASONS FOR LEAVING THAT CHRISTIAN SITE I USED TO POST ON, MOST OF THE PEOPLE WERE TOO STUBBORN TO LISTEN TO GOD’S TRUTH. THEY COULDN’T COMPREHEND THE DIFFERENCE SPIRITUALLY BETWEEN THE ‘EKKLĒSIA AND THE HAGIOS.
        THERE ARE “NAMES” OF DIFFERENT GROUPS THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THE “BOOK OF LIFE”, AND ONE OF THOSE GROUPS OF NAMES CONSIST OF THE ABOVE “NEW CREATION” (SPIRITUAL ISRAEL) THAT WILL BE RAPTURED ALL AS ONE GROUP!

        (BECAUSE OF THE IMMINENCY, URGENCY AND THE QUICKENING OF MY SPIRIT AND THAT “THE SPIRIT HIMSELF” HAS ME FEELING, MAYBE ON SHAVU’OT WITH GOD RECEIVING THE SPIRIT BACK ON THE DATE OF THE ANNIVERSARY IT WAS GIVEN? THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT I AM NOT ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN ABOUT. BUT I THINK AND FEEL THAT THIS IS NOW THE DATE.)

        THEN THERE IS ANOTHER GROUP, “THE HAGIOS” WHO EITHER WEREN’T BORN AGAIN, OR TOOK THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD NONCHALANTLY, OR FOR GRANTED, THEREFORE REALLY HADN’T ESTABLISHED A RELATIONSHIP, (MATTHEW 7:14. –7:22,23. & 25:12.).
        THIS GROUP HAS TO NOW “EARN” THEIR WAY INTO THE “BOOK OF LIFE”. SOME UNFORTUNATELY MAY CHOOSE THE MARK OF THE BEAST INSTEAD.

        THE RAPTURES IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION ARE ALL THERE IF YOU ALLOW FOR THE SPIRIT TO SHOW YOU. IF YOU WISH TO MAINTAIN THAT OF YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING RATHER THAN GOD’S, THE SPIRIT DOESN’T FORCE YOU TO UNDERSTAND.

        THE ‘EKKLĒSIA IS DESCRIBED WITHIN VERSES 3:7. TO 3:13. (THE CHURCH OF PHILADELPHIA. “BROTHERLY LOVE”) BEING THE FIRST OF THE “FIRSTFRUITS”, AND THE RAPTURE OF THIS GROUP IS REV 4:1.

        THE “HAGIOS” IS DESCRIBED WITHIN VERSES REV.3:15. TO 3:19. (THE CHURCH OF LAODICEANS.) THESE VERSES CLEARLY DESCRIBE WHY YESHUA SPITS THIS CHURCH OUT. THEY ARE LEFT ON EARTH, AND ARE THE FIVE FOOLISH VIRGINS HAVING QUENCHED THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, (1 THESS. 5:19.) THEY DON’T MAKE THIS UPCOMING RAPTURE!

        AND THE DEAD TEXT AS IT IS EXPRESSED IN REV.3:18., DOES NOT DO THIS VERSE JUSTICE WHATSOEVER. FOR IN THE GREEK IT SHOULD SAY,

        “TAKE COUNSEL WITH OTHERS, TAKE COUNSEL TOGETHER, YOU ABANDONED AND BARREN PEOPLE. YOU MUST PURCHASE FROM ME GOLD WHICH HAS BEEN EARNED, BY BEING TRIED IN THE FIRE. THOUGH YOU ARE INDIGNANT, AND ARE ANGRY, PERCEIVING THIS TO BE UNFAIR AS TREATMENT IN BEING LEFT BEHIND IN THE FIRE, IT IS IN ORDER SO THAT YOU CAN BE RICH WITH ABUNDANCE, AND RECEIVE YOUR BRILLIANT WHITE GARMENTS AND THEN WEAR THEM, SO THAT THE SHAME AND DISHONOUR OF YOUR NAKEDNESS IS NOT VISIBLE.
        BUT ANOINT THE EYES OF YOUR MIND WITH SALVE IN ORDER THAT YOU UNDERSTAND, (VERSE 19), THAT AS GREAT AS MY LOVE IS, YOUR FAULT HAS BEEN EXPOSED, SO, I HAVE TO CHASTISE YOU SO THAT YOU WILL LEARN. THEREFORE THEN, BE ZEALOUS IN YOUR PURSUIT OF BEING GOOD, AND REPENT FROM YOUR PAST SINS.”

        THOSE THAT MAKE IT THROUGH ALL OF THIS AND DON’T ACCEPT THE MARK OF THE BEAST ETC. AND BECOME SAINTS, ARE RAPTURED NEAR THE END BEFORE YESHUA’S RETURN, (REV. 15:2.) NOW THEY CAN PUT ON THEIR WHITE GARMENTS THAT THEY RECEIVED WHILE WAITING FOR THIS RAPTURE AND FOR THE OTHERS THAT WILL BE KILLED AS THEY WERE, AS DESCRIBED IN REV.6:9-11.

        THEN THERE ARE THE 144,000 THAT ARE THE “MAN CHILD” BIRTHED FROM ISRAEL IN REV. 12:5 WHICH ARE ALREADY IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, BUT COME TO THE FAITH DURING THE CAPTIVITY OF SATAN, (SEE REV. 18:1. AND 4 IN BLUE BELOW.) THESE 144,000 ARE RAPTURED IN REV.14:2. ALL OF THESE, “THE TRUE FAITHFUL ‘EKKLĒSIA, THE 144,000, AND THE SAINTS”, ARE ALL CONSIDERED TO BE “FIRSTFRUITS”!
        EVEN THOUGH THEY HAPPEN TO CONSIST OF 3 SEPARATE GROUPS, (AND WHAT ARE EITHER 3 SEPARATE RAPTURES, OR POSSIBLY THE 144,000 AND THE SAINTS BEING AT THE SAME TIME). THE SPIRIT DIDN’T REVEAL THAT, BUT I BELIEVE THAT TO BE THE CASE BASED UPON SOME OF THE VISIONS.

        THEN THERE ARE THE TWO WITNESSES WHO ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY SPECIAL PARTICIPANTS WITHIN THIS DRAMA, AND HAVE PROBABLY ALREADY BEEN IN HEAVEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME BEFORE RETURNING TO SERVE THE FATHER ON EARTH. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHERE THEIR RAPTURE IS PLAIN AND OBVIOUS AND WRITTEN IN REV.12:5.

        GOD MADE SURE THAT REVELATION WOULDN’T BE CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD, SO THAT HE COULD SIFT THE WHEAT FROM THE CHAFF, AND FIND OUT WHO WOULD BE REALLY FAITHFUL TO HIM , HIS SON, AND HIS SPIRIT.

        IT WASN’T THE TRANSLATORS FAULT, BECAUSE FOR ONE, GOD DIDN’T WANT THE BOOK TO BE UNDERSTOOD UNTIL IT WAS FULLY TIME, AND SECONDLY, THE DOCTRINE OF A RAPTURE HAD BEEN LOST AND DISCARDED YEARS PRIOR TO THE WORDS TRANSLATION INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
        THAT IS WHY THEY TRANSLATED THE GREEK WORD “κόπτω” AS MERELY “SHALL WAIL” WITHIN REV. 1:7 TOO, BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF, “PEOPLE BEING COMPLETELY CUT OFF AND SEPARATED FROM GOD!”

        I then included a complete re-translation of Revelation 17 and 18. People gave me grief like it was my idea, rather than realizing that the whole task was accomplished solely by the Spirit, with only me as an instrument.

        I believe that those Chapters will be some of the only Christian Scripture left, (since all Christian web-sites will be taken down, and all Bibles will be confiscated and destroyed). I believe that it will help those that teach the others that are left behind, and are helpful in why the, “Saints find Patience” and remain strong.

        They have been sent out to others, (even those that didn’t receive the Word), And I am sure that when the time is right God will tell them what to do with them. For they are HIS.

        An amazing time we are in my brother. An amazing time indeed.
        Come Lord Yeshua Come!

        Be Blessed,
        Shalom

        • I realized after I posted that, that in my frantic panic of the time, that the Rapture of the Two Witnesses was quoted wrong above.

          It should have said Revelation 11:12. rather than Revelation 12:5.

          Sorry. Try to understand how freaked out I was at the time.

          Shalom

          • DEB,

            REAED THE ABOVE 3 POSTS!

            BE BLESSED IN YESHUA THE KING oF kings and LORD of lords.

  86. SPECULATION at its best!….great GLEANING material and lots to connectl!!!…..a Tuesday, May 1 RAPTURE???

    Guess what! The Church will be RAPTURED on Firstfruits, 2012 (Sun, Apr 8) after all!……but 23 days later!……..on TUESDAY, May 1. That day is also TAURUS 11 (9th sign/BULL ANGER x 11 = 99) After the earth is straight (a loss of 23 days), the date of the Rapture will be seen as Sunday, Apr 8, 2012.

    TUESDAY is the 3rd Day and the ancient GROOM ARRIVAL DAY (one meaning of Hosea 6:2-3).

    The trib now spans FIRSTFRUITS 2012 to FIRSTFRUITS 2019. Firstfruits (NISAN 17) of 2019 is April 22, which is 30 days (Jews mourn Jesus/Zech 12:10, 13:6) after the RETURN. Nisan 17 is of course the greatest day on earth, the day death was conquered as well as the anniv of the end of the flood, Red Sea Crossing, Entrance into Canaan, Haman hanged, Jesus’ Resurrection and Jesus’ Entrance into Temple.

    Saturday, April 28, 2012, will probably be a SIGNING of some sort (a.c. yet unrevealed until after the Rapture), then plus 1260 days (a.c. ‘keeps’ covenant w/ Israel) is Sat, Oct 10, Tishrei 27, 2015, a.c. killed.

    Three days later, TUESDAY, Oct 13, Tishrei 30, 2015, a.c. satanically ‘rises’ and kills Elijah and Moses.

    Three+ days later is Oct 16, Chesvan 3, 2015, Elijah and Moses RISE. If the 23-day tilt loss projection is considered, then Chesvan 3 will revert back to YOM KIPPUR, 2015. Before the 2 witnesses rise, gifts will be sent to one another throughout the world rejoicing at the death of these 2 dangerous men that could not be destroyed until the a.c. satanically rises with supernatural power to kill them. But when the 2 witnesses miraculously stand up 3+ days later (world sees), the GREAT TRIB begins……no more joy! If this day (when the -23 is considered) is to be seen in the future as YOM KIPPUR, then this will be the first Yom Kippur in history where NON FORGIVENESS takes hold. Up until the death of the a.c. the Jews will be using their newly-built 3rd Temple; but at mid trib, everything changes and all Hell breaks loose when the 2 witnesses rise.

    May 1, 2012 is IYYAR 9 and the end of the trib with the -23 considered is also IYYAR 9 = 7 perfect Jewish yrs.

    IYYAR 9, 2019 is May 14, 70 full yrs STATEHOOD (70 full is 71)….the last date that the span is a ’70′ (just as a child is AGE ONE and not yet AGE TWO all the way til the 364th day of age 1). God always works in ‘fullness of time.’

    The end of the trib if the -23 days is NOT considered is JUNE 6, 2019….52 yrs from the 1967 Six Day War.

    Jesus Returns ARIES 1, the 8th Sign/Lamb. This is the Day the Jews CALL their LAMB back to earth.

    30 days later (mourning) is TAURUS 1, the Raging Bull (Deut 33:17), the day Jesus enters the Temple w/ the Remnant from Petra (Isaiah 63) to rule with the rod of iron……very tough, Jewish Messianic rule for the 1000 yrs. That day is April 22, 2019, NISAN 17, FIRSTFRUITS. On this day the 45-day JUDGMENT of the NATIONS begins. Taurus 1 fits this scenario in that the judgment meted out upon the nations will be harsh beyond imagination. This will be ‘judgment by the BULL’ (Deut 33:17), not ‘mercy by the LAMB.’ When the date of Firstfruits, 2019 is studied, according to the calendar it is the SAME day as the new, Millennial NISAN 1 (i.e. Apr 1 and Apr 22 will be the ‘same day’…..BEGINNING of DAYS as commanded by God to Noah.

    When the 45-day judgment of the Nations is over, that day will not only be May 14 and June 6 (one w/ the -23, one not), but it will also be GEMINI 15, the exact middle of the 10th sign (10=completion) when the TWINS (Messiah & Israel) walk together in harmony.

    The only Mazzarot connection at mid-trib is that Oct 13, 2015 (a.c. ‘rises’) is LIBRA 22 and LIBRA is the sign of JUDGMENT (balancing scales), and 22 is double 11…i.e. double judgment; and…..spec.

    The pre-Rapture span is very interesting as well. Note that the 1-yr warning/Jerem 51:46 (Rev 11, Jan 29, 2011 Temple Mt UFO, Shevat 24…11,888) plus exactly 360 days (1 perfect/Millennial yr) is Jan 24, 2012 (end of the 1-yr warning). Then add 98 days to that to arrive at Tuesday, May 1, the presumed Rapture date. 98 is 75 plus 23. The 75 on THIS side of the trib is in GRACE and the 75 on the post-Return side of the trib is in JUDGMENT; and they ‘cancel’ one another out. 75 plus 23 is the 98 days, and the 23 is the earth tilt that will be subtracted as well when the earth straightens. Thus the 98 days will ‘CANCEL OUT altogether.’ There HAS to be an explanation for the delays up to the Rapture as well as the points within the trib scenario. God worked through and revealed perfect patterns all through history and He’s not going to put us out into total oblivion when we are ‘children of light.’

    The straightening of the earth is reviewed in Isa 13:13, 24:1,19,20. Before the flood, earth’s yr was 360 days. The straightening will occur when Jesus’ FOOT touches down upon the Mt of Olives (Zech 14:4, Rev 19)….geological tumult as never before. The sun’s rays that shine upon a certain spot on earth (which determines its season at that spot) will then shine 22 degrees before that spot on earth (which determines its season as well….i.e. the new date will be as it was 22 days earlier). The 2 calendars and the Mazzarot (360 days each) will all be in sync.

    All is still in sync w/ the above scenario: 1260 Elij & Moses’ ministry, 1260 a.c. ‘keeps’ covenant with Israel, 1260 Petra Protection, 1290 mid trib to end, 1335 mid trib to end, 2300 New Yrs Eve (?) to Nisan 17, 2019, Divine Victory in mts of Israel June 6, 2012 (+7 mths burying = Dec 31, 2012), June 6, 2012 to June 6, 2019 is the 7 yrs fuel use of Russian weaponry (Ezek 39:9), trib Iyyar 9 to Iyyar 9, the 2550 days (as the 2550 yrs 583 B.C. to 1967) are SIGNING (Apr 28) to Jesus into Temple Nisan 17, 2019 (Apr 22) and the most amazing: Firstfruits 2012 to Firstfruits 2019. There’s nothing else to figure from what I can see.

    When the earth reverts back 23 days, that day will be as the new ADAR 1 (even though it is the actual IAdar 24), plus 30 days is the new NISAN 1 (which will be APRIL 1/New Yrs Day/Taurus 1 for 1000 yrs), even though March 31/Apr 1 is the actual II Adar 24 in 2019. Also March 30/Apr 1, 2019 plus exactly 360 days (1st Millen yr) is Mar 26, Nisan 1 of 2020…..dare you to get all that. Notice all the 12′s in the post Return dates (I ADAR 24, II ADAR 24) and 12 means perfect gov’t. Leo, the 12th Mazzarot sign, and Jesus is the LION of JUDAH. The study of 12′s is, of course, fascinating: 12 tribes, 12 disciples, 12 mths, 12 hrs, 120 etc………..no time for that now.

    With the world coming apart: strange sounds underground, horrific sinkholes, animals dying, UFO’s, gas prices going up, U.S. against Israel (thus God’s judgment upon the U.S.), Israel in extreme danger from Iran, rampant homosexuality & taught in schools, Islamic threat to the world/terrorism, political corruption in U.S. beyond belief with no solutions, extreme unemployment, home foreclosures, crime, x-generation of teens, watered-down Gospel & compromising pastors, school textbooks teaching evolution and corrupt forefathers, society infatuated & brainwashed with sports & music/dance idols, euthanasia on the horizon, threat of no health care for seniors,…..etc……when does it get bad enough to ‘LOOK UP’ as Jesus told us to do. Our necks will get sore if we look up for nothing!! He said we would know when He is at the door…..of 72 hrs of course.

  87. To All
    ,
    There has been a lot of discussion about the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Most everything I have read on this blog has been based on the Western Christian viewpoint. The following discussion on the parable is based on the Hebraic Messianic viewpoint. I found this the other day and have found my understanding to be in line with the interpretation rendered, lest any think I found this and adjusted my thinking to fit what I was reading. Time constraints make it more advantageous to copy and paste when there is agreement on the interpretation and the delivery.

    http://www.waytozion.org/articles/ten%20virgins.htm

    Be blessed in Messiah

  88. Regarding the above link.

    It is my opinion that it is false teaching.

    In Matthew 5 Yeshua expounded on the Ten Commandments. (vs. 21-30.) This means to be able to do that, He is equal with God.
    Therefore all that Yeshua states within scripture is not mere suggestion, but is rather “TOWRAH”, the HOLY WORD OF GOD.
    It is equal to any Commandment ever uttered by HOLY LIPS.

    This makes Mark 12:30,31. the NEW TOWRAH of the NEW COVENANT.

    30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    31 And the second is like, namely this , Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    I could go on and on and on with this, but will simply quote this following Scripture from Paul to Timothy.

    1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron ;
    3 Forbidding to marry , and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
    5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
    6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained .
    7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
    8 For bodily exercise profiteth little : but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come .
    9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach , because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
    11 These things command and teach .
    12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
    13 Till I come , give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
    14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
    15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
    16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    1 Timothy Ch. 4.

    • well. it is a viewpoint.

    • Hey Alienated,

      Hope all is well with you, but sounds like it isn’t. I wasn’t writing this to you but to any and all who would read it. Your indignation was very evident in your abruptness, but that is okay, though I must say you have never come across quite that way before. You said that “in your opinion it is false teaching” (referring to the Hebraic teaching on the parable of the 10 Vrigins) yet you evidently found nothing specific to address that was false, outside of the overall message, that the commandments are necessary for today. But you did make reference to a few scriptures that you evidently think overturns or negates Torah (or whatever adjective you would care to use).

      You brought up Matthew 5:21-30. This does not suspend or negate Torah at all. If anything it establishes the commandments. Yahshua, in these scriptures, while maintaining the original context of the commandments, actually elevated the degree of difficulty in the keeping of the commandment. He didn’t do away with anything or change anything. What He did do was basically make it impossible to keep the commandments without His shed blood to cover our sins. Keeping the commandment of not physically committing adultery was still applicable, but now went beyond that. Now just thinking about committing adultery=lust in the heart was violating the instruction. He didn’t lessen the commandments, but rather elevated them to a new level. If you broke the original commandment you automatically broke the enhanced commandment. In fact, now you could break the commandment without physically doing anything! How does that mean we don’t need to keep the commandment anymore? The commandment went from being not only a physical act, to include being just a thought. Just interested in knowing how you see this as ditching the Torah?

      1. Then you say: “This makes Mark 12:30-31. the NEW TOWRAH of the NEW COVENANT.”

      30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
      31 And the second is like, namely this , Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
      Yahshua quoted these out of the Torah. He said there is no greater commandment than these.

      Are you just assuming that Yahshua meant you didn’t need to keep any of His instructions anymore? He never said that and never even hinted at it. Love of Yah and love of man puts us in a place to keep His instructions, through Messiah Yahshua. Remember the verse “If you LOVE Me keep my commandments”?

      The Torah is the foundation of all scripture. Yahshua came to make it the living Torah written on our hearts and elevate it to a new dimension in our spirit, to enable us through Ruach HaKodesh to walk more perfectly before Him. Why do you think Yah kept Judah ethnically pure to this day (though not all) and through them kept the Torah alive and relevant? But conversely, allowed Ephraim (the ten northern tribes) to be assimilated and “mixed” among the nations. He knew that the all Gentile Church would turn to pagan worship. That they would take pagan religious practices and incorporate these things into worshiping Him, YHWH, the true God. It is basically mixing that which is profane with that which is Kadosh and saying that we are worshipping YHWH. Look at Deuteronomy 12:29-32
      ;
      29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
      32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

      This is my question, how has casting off the Torah (commandments) worked out for the Gentile Christian Church over the past 1700 years? Has it not taken away that which we were commanded to do, to keep the commandments-Torah, and added Babylonian Sun God Worship, each doing His own thing “in the spirit”, because it really doesn’t matter anymore, just as long as you “accepted Jesus”. Doesn’t it seem strange that what we were commanded to do has been thrown out without even a second thought and what we were warned to stay away from (basically Baal worship) is embraced by virtually all of the Christian Church in one form or another?????? If you will remember, Constantine embraced Babylonian sun god worship and basically added Jesus to the mix. What he did require though, was that the Christians cease from anything considered to be Jewish; the commandments, feasts, Sabbath and so on. But that is okay because we have eternal salvation and couldn’t throw it away if we wanted to. The Church in general is on the highway to hell and has no idea about most of these things, depending on their pastor or shepherd to tell them the truth, of which there is very little of that.

      One last thing; you ended your post with 1 Timothy chapter 4. The Church thinks this is one of their “clear” scriptures that the commandments have been overturned and are no longer valid for the “saints”.

      This is verse 3-6:
      3 Forbidding to marry , and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
      4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
      5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

      This scripture is not speaking of eating what is clean or unclean. It is refuting false doctrines about forbidding marriage and abstaining from meat all together. The qualifying phrase in the three verses is vs 5; For it is “Sanctified by the Word of God and prayer”. Since Adam and Eve there has been the understanding of what are clean and unclean animals. The clean animals are listed in the Word and are given by commandment to be the only animals good for food, thereby being Sanctified by the Word. No amount of prayer will make that which Yah has called unclean to suddenly be clean. I have heard it put like this, “Praying over unclean food to make it acceptable to eat is like praying that you don’t get caught stealing.” But I am relatively sure this will have no impact on your beliefs about all of this
      .
      In the near future, the two witnesses in accord with the 144,000 will place the issue of adherence to Messiah and the Torah front and center. Needless to say, many of the Christian Church (Ephraim) will walk away from the message as false teaching and doctrine. Just as Judah in the first coming of Messiah missed their day of visitation, so will much of Ephraim at His second coming.

      Jeremiah 16:19
      King James Version (KJV)

      19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

      I am not writing this to illicit a response from you. Do what you will with that.

      I hope for you only the best my Brother!!!

      • Al,
        Good to here from you again. There are wondrous things being set into motion here, that defy our understanding, but I can assure you that the Torah is being fulfilled in a way that even you never imagined. Please take the time to read what is happening to our brother in Christ, as the Spirit is moving in him. This is not some petty debate that is happening here. I pray that the Spirit leads you to the words that are at work here, God bless.

      • Alienated asked me to post this to AL………….

        Al,

        The ONLY hope that we have Is in the SHED BLOOD of Yeshua our KING of kings.
        Following any of the Taryag Mitzvot, (the 613 Commandments) are not necessary through YESHUA.
        1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
        2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron ;
        3 Forbidding to marry , and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
        4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
        5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
        6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained .
        7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
        8 For bodily exercise profiteth little : but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come .
        9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (1 Timothy 4:1-9)Read all of 1 Timothy 4. And also read this.16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come ; but the body is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16,17.)The Body is of Christ, (Yeshua the KING) and HIM alone.

        Be Blessed in Yeshua the KING of kings and LORD of lords.

        posted by Marianne for alienated

  89. I can tell you without a doubt IT IS GOD SPEAKING TO ME. I absolutely know the voice of the Holy Spirit and what I have been through …and He did not tell me that the covenant was not a “sign”…he said quit looking it has happened…to look for the Abomination as the next thing to happen. I cannot go thru the entire story of what he has done for me but I will put it here again…all of it. I cannot convince you that the “covenant with many” has happened. Only the Holy Spirit can. But I can tell you….it is the Holy Spirit and the Lord that is speaking to me.

    This is my only explanation I have for how the Holy Spirit is working in me. You will understand what I mean after you read my story below.

    John 7:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters.

    MY STORY:

    24 years ago when my son was 7 years, I was called into his school and told they believed he was sexually molested and he portrayed all of the signs of a sexually abused child. I myself had been aware of how he was acting and saying things I did not think normal but at 28 years old honestly I was naïve about thinking adults doing things to children. I could not fathom who did it but had one suspicion at that time and it was his stepfather whom I was married to at the time. He was a little unusual and I had begun to think he had homosexual tendencies (although this does not make one a child molester). I just could not imagine who did anything to my son. He never went to babysitters as I never went “out” so he was always with me, his stepfather and of course his daily sitter while we worked that had kept him from age 2 to age 7 when I found out. His sitter he had for all those years was my neighbor and she was also my Sunday school teacher and I gave my life to the Lord in her home. Her husband was church treasurer and sometimes helped with the daycare as he seemed to always be in between jobs. I actually trusted them more than my own family. Well…needless to say, my son’s behavior got so out of control he had to be institutionalized for 3 months at Vanderbilt Children’s Psychiatric Hospital in Nashville. They of course did all the normal “play therapy” but to no avail. In the meantime my husband and I separated and my son and I moved to an apartment. His behavior got worse…he began to also curse the name of Jesus. I had him prayed for, prayed over and everything you can imagine. Once a person came to my apartment and told me that there was a demon of homosexuality after my son. I was not aware back then that people really could discern spirits but I never doubted what he told me. My husband and I did get back together and we moved back home but divorced a year later. At that time, my son at 9 years old tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of the medication he was on. He was again put in an institution and stayed in patient for 3 more months and then went in the day for 6 more months to their day program. They abused him physically I found out and of course I immediately took him out of the program. During this time they tried to get him to talk about his abuse and he adamantly refused. Period. During this last hospital stay, some other children that were 4 years of age…2 others to be exact, went home from the same day care my son went to all those years and told things that had been done to them that were sexually inappropriate to say the least. We ALL went to the same church. We ALL trusted this daycare provider of course as they were leaders in our church. I was shocked to say the least. I confronted them and asked the wife could her husband possibly have been the one to do something to my child as she had shared with me during our friendship that he had been sexually abused by his father when he was growing up. I was devastated and told them I needed answers. Well…she hung up on me as I had called her on the phone and we NEVER spoke again. They changed churches and I was going through so much trying to get my son help and he never would tell who did what to him so I had no legal recourse against them. He did tell me the day before this suicide attempt at 9 years old that he had to give an adult a “blow job” and adamantly refused to tell me who. He then tried to kill himself by taking an overdose. They eventually closed down their daycare I had heard and that was like I said 24 years ago. My son tried to commit suicide again at 14 and again at 21 years of age. To say the least I have struggled to keep my faith that God would one day take care of this but I NEVER gave up. I kept the faith of a mustard seed most days and some days occasionally a mountain although it was hard.

    Fast forward to Good Friday of 2011. On this day my son beat his 6 year old little boy and left many many marks on his entire back. (He had rarely ever spanked him though before this). I was devastated for the poor child and knew the anger from my son’s sexual abuse was coming to a head. Up till this time my son had become a drug addict, alcoholic and verbally and physically abused his wife. He threatened to burn the house down with her in it on numerous occasions. I did what I should have done and that was I called the Department of Human Services. Life has not been the same since. I was so devastated I told God that 24 years had passed and I needed to know who did what to my son as it was literally killing us all. My son over all these last years’ refused to talk about any of it much less admit he had a problem. I got on my knees and told the Lord that I would seek Him like I had never in my life and would study His word for the truth as I said in my spirit I sensed he was returning soon and I was afraid that my son would to go hell since he cursed the name of Jesus. He used to tell me that there was not a God or all that happened to him surely could not have happened. The Lord told me in my spirit “seek My face and I will fix your problems”…so I got on the internet and got my bible and I typed in the words” God I want to know the truth” and started studying. I told him I needed the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    As I studied of course my main interest/focus was on the book of Revelation/Daniel and every scripture involved it led me to. I began to read and read and read and read. For hours every night…doing exactly what I told the Lord I would do and He said He would fix my problems. Well…as I began to read different interpretations of scripture I began to get confused on “who” had it right so I just kept studying. God says to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us and even to discern the truth if what pastors teach us as well is his truth. We ARE NOT TO TAKE YOUR WORD OR ANYONE ELSES WORD…we are to study ourselves. About 4-5 weeks into my diligent seeking, I was so confused one day and in my mind thought “is it this way or is it this way”…and as I would think of each direction I started feeling little flutters in my belly. At first I was like…”what is that”…is that you God? Well…I kept studying, seeking, praying and repenting of my sins (God was really cleansing my soul). As I studied over the next week or so He would move in my belly directing me which way to go as far as the last week of Daniel. As you know there are many views out there…and about pre trib, post trib, etc. After a few weeks of this I was truly amazed and still not quite sure what was happening. I went for a ride with my husband one day although I told him I really want to sit at my desk and study and as we were riding I was thinking about everything I had read and to myself asking…ok, is it this way or that way…and God started moving in my belly answering me when I was thinking in the direction He wanted me to go/study. I chuckled to myself and thought to God…Lord, Jack (my husband) will think I am nuts when I tell him you are moving in my belly…and I literally FELT the Lord chuckle back!

    Ok, so over all of last summer I literally repented of sins, ask God’s forgiveness, rejoiced in all that He was doing. As I went through this I would be just thinking certain thoughts in my mind on who did what to my son many years ago and realized that the Lord was ready to give me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth just as I had prayed for. He revealed as I asked questions by literally moving in my belly (to yes and no answers) that my son was abused by his Stepfather AND the babysitters husband. He revealed to me my father was sexually abused (in comes generational sins). I too had done things with my brother at a very young age from about 5-10 years old that were not of God and only of satan and although I had gone to my brother about 5 years ago and talked to him about my memories and had done a lot of healing from this already ….it was one more generation of perversion satan had managed to get his foot in the door…and carried the sexual sin another generation with my son. I did know that since I had gone to my brother that I had broken the chain and prayed the Lord would help me break it with my son and what happened to him.

    My current husband had some issues that had affected our marriage and had for about 10 years as well but denied it. Well…the Lord revealed to me all that was taking place with him. He actually told me to tell my husband that what he was doing was “detestable” to him and he needed to denounce it. I went to him and gave him the message from the Lord and he of course denied it. I kept studying, seeking, praying and God kept revealing things to me. He revealed to me in advance when my husband would get phone calls from 2 specific people that they were involved in the same sin…when the phone would ring He would literally move in my belly and I would ask..Lord do they have the same problem…and He moved and moved (weird but true) I kept seeking. He told me again a few weeks later to tell my husband what he was doing was “detestable” and to denounce it. I told him again. He again tried to deny it. I said…I am telling you what God told me to tell you…Well, things started getting evil in my house. Literally one night the Holy Spirit vibrated my stomach so hard it felt like a chainsaw inside! LOLOL!! Again, weird but true, warning me of the evil of something going on with my husband. I prayed for safety, and as I would look in my husband eyes they looked weird, different and evil. That was how I can explain it. Also, I told my son what the Lord revealed to me about his father molesting him. He did not deny or admit it. He said “I don’t understand how God can tell you in your belly”…and I am going to leave the past in the past….”Dad has enough problems with his health right now”…and I don’t remember much but I am moving forward. I told him, David you cannot move forward unless you deal with this. Jesus can help you if you will let him. Now…understand after I called the dept. of human services on him for beating his child he told me I was right, he was wrong and he was going to do everything in his life differently. Well…as I prayed and sought the Lord as I promised, God worked on his end of the deal as I began to sense a change in my sons spirit like you would not believe even before I told him about knowing his father did this. Now…my daughter- in-law thought I had gone off the deep end. I had told her that I felt like shooting my son’s father and she took it literal and told my son…Your mom is going to shoot your dad…they called and told him what was going on. He called me and said “so God told you I molested David”…and I said YEP, he did. He started crying and all he could say was “what about all the good things I did for him”…I told him he needed to repent of what he did to David to God and to his own son for what he did. He was crying so hard…then he hung up on me. That was last September. Now, what this truth the Lord has shown me did was to let my son know…”yes, there is a God” as he did not believe it or the evil/perversion surely would not have happened to him…therefore it was keeping him from believing in Jesus Christ…just what satan would have wanted and David would never give his life to the Lord. So, since my son knew he had never told a sole that his father had molested him, he had to know that the Lord is truly real! Jesus Christ won this battle…

    Then….God said it was time to separate from my husband…the evil was getting worse and I could sense danger (although he was far from a dangerous person).I left him. He begged me not to but I did. The day after I left he got on his knees and prayed for me to come back. He realized after a day that he was praying for the wrong thing and the next day he got on his knees and prayed for God to cleanse him of this sin in his life ( the sin he adamantly denied to me) and to forgive him. Well…he told me the Holy Spirit literally vibrated his entire body from top to bottom and he felt the demons leave him. I then understood the “look” in his eyes and the evil presence I felt and that God warned me of the last few weeks I was home.

    But…these months I kept praying, studying, seeking just like I promised God. Never gave up! And…He started showing me many more truths than I ever could imagine. He moves in my belly and lets me know when I am in the presence of evil spirits….in public places, when my husband and I are around each other and they are trying to attack him, he has a son that is very far from God and every time I am around him God warns me of the evil, He warned me when my car was getting ready to break down, He warned/warns me when I make a wrong turn on the highway ( sometimes it takes me a few minutes to realize why He is moving In my stomach but I eventually do). He lets me know when I have taken my grandson to a movie the songs they play that are not of God. At the skating rink when I take my grandson, He tells me when a song is playing that He does not approve of…all by moving in my stomach. The list goes on and on. He also though still continues to move in my belly when I am studying truths. (the feelings/movements are different for evil vs good/truth).

    Well…this all lead up to my contemplating that I did not think that satan would want us to know about when the covenant that most people think has to happen still was signed and God gave me this dream:

    The Lord woke me in the middle of the night on March 5th as I was dreaming about the 70th week of Daniel. When I woke, I immediately remembered that God told me we are IN THE FINAL 7 YEARS NOW…to not be looking for any covenant. I ask him “Lord did you wake me so I would remember this dream and he moved in my stomach to FIRMLY and positively tell me YES I DID. I then went back to sleep and dreamed the Lord telling me that I needed to be looking for the abomination of desolation next. He then woke me VERY FIRMLY again by moving in my stomach and I asked him again “Lord did you wake me again so I would remember this dream” and in no uncertain terms he said by moving and moving in me YES I DID. The next morning I woke and prayed and sought the Lord and in amazement asked him to please clarify that it was him waking me and telling me what he did and he absolutely moved in me like he does when he wants to GET MY ATTENTION. Yes, I did wake you and this is what I wanted you to remember.

    So..I am shouting the news. Our Lords return is soon. I have come to the conclusion myself that his church will be taken at the 6th seal. I do not KNOW that for a fact but from my studying this is the conclusion I have come to thus far. I did not believe in pretribulation rapture even before the dream as most do. We will have to endure much of what is to come. I am preparing so that I will not have to take the mark of the beast to buy or sell food during this time.

    I feel so grateful for the truths He has shown me. I am cleansed from the inside out and feel blessed to be able to worship Him so freely. I guess when I asked for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth he honored my request as I honored my commitment to Him by diligently seeking Him as I promised. As I said, some of the truths are personal and some are not. I believe that the Lord gave me the truths about these final days because I am bold enough to speak it unlike most pastors of today as most are not even studying or paying attention that we are living in the last days as we know it.

  90. You are correct, it does not say a “peace covenant”…and again, it does not say it will be “public” and obviously it wasn’t or the Lord would not have told me to quit looking for it that it has happened.:-)

    • Hi Deb, Marianne and all,

      You are correct in that it does not say that it is a covenant of peace, but it is deduced from the verse. Currently, there is no peace between Palistine/Muslims and Israel and since Palistine controls the temple mount, Israel cannot build their temple to perform temple worship. Therefore, since it is stated in the Scripture that “he” causes the daily sacrifice and offerings to cease, this would show that Israel will again be sacrificing. This shows us that, where Israel is currently not able to perform this, something will have changed to allow them to be able to sacrice once again. My deduction is that, Palistine is part of the “Many” that he makes the covenant with, which allows Israel to do what they currently are unable to do and that is to build their temple and begin temple worship.

      Once again you are correct in that it does not say the covenant is public, but again, this can be deduced from the verse. Anything that goes on regaring Israel is and will be in the news. Therefore, I believe that when Isael builds their temple and begins sacrificing, that the entire world will know about it and therefore, those who know the word of God will know that the covenant has been made.

  91. Amen. and Test the spirit I do….I literally pray without ceasing…on this matter. I will not be deceived. thank you Jesus. and yes, I believe the Holy Spirit is going to be moving in a mighty way…we will hear more from others very soon I do believe.

    • Amen deb.
      I had a sister who passed away a year ago, who had similar experiences as your son, in the church. I know firsthand the pain you feel. your testimony is a blessing. May you be blessed.

  92. We know that the covenant that he makes with “many” involves Israel, because it is stated that he causes the daily sacrifice and offerings to cease in the middle of the ‘seven’. With Israel in the news every day, do you really think that the world is not going to know when a peace treaty is made that allows them to rebuild their temple? Which is obviously the case, for you can’t have daily sacrifices ceasing unless they are taking place! Believe me, the world will know when that covenant/contract is made, and it is part of the prophecy because God wrote it. The making of that covenant establishes the beginnging of that last ‘seven’ and the abomination that the beast sets up in the holy place marks the middle of the ‘seven’ and the point where the desolation of Jerusalem takes place.

    That last 3 1/2 years of the ‘seven’ is the same time period that the woman/Israel of Rev.12 is cared for out in the desert. And that last 3 1/2 years of the ‘seven’ is also the same time period that the beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints recorded as 42 months. The end of the ‘seven’ is when the Lord returns visually and physically to the earth to usher in the end of the age and begin his millennial kingdom, not to be confused with the resurrection and catching away, which is a totally different event. People have made these two events synonymous and that because they try to cram all of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation and assign them to Rev.20:4 because it says, “This is the first resurrection.” And because of this, they get the idea in their heads of one single resurrection.

    That resurrection that takes place there in Rev.20:4 is specifically for the great tribulation saints and we can conclude this because it is said that they are those who did not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark, which gives us the time period from which they come from, that being that last 3 1/2 years. That it refers to this group as the first resurrection, is that they are only one part of the first resurrection, Jesus being the first. He initiated the first resurrection, being the first fruits of those who come to life and the first resurrection is still in affect and will be followed by the church, the two witnesses, the male child/144,00 and then the great tribulation saints. These are all part of the first resurrection.

    To clarify, any resurrection or catching away that takes place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years is part of the first resurrection, for on such the second death has no power. For those who take part in the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years, these are those whom the second death has power over. For that resurrection, which brings them out of Hades to the great white throne judgment, is the resurrection of the lost dead. If you’re being resurrected out of Hades, which is the same place that the rich man went to and was in torment, then that persons name is not going to be found written in the book of life, as he/she is coming out of Hades for a reason.

  93. in reply to this….

    do you really think that the world is not going to know when a peace treaty is made that allows them to rebuild their temple

    Yes, I do really think and more than that I KNOW…I cannot imagine that it is so hard for you to believe that the Lord is going to give dreams and direct words to people in the last days when scripture specifically says he will in Joel 2:28. I know it is hard to to believe, but He did tell me and I can guarantee you on my own salvation that the dream/words were from the Lord. The covenant has happened, quit looking for it. so…I have quit looking for it and am now looking for the “next thing to happen” as He told me. I pray that you ask the Holy Spirit for a confirmation in your spirit. I am banking my salvation on it.

    • Hello again!

      You said in the previous post that the Lord said,

      “The covenant has happened, quit looking for it.”

      Since the making of that covenant initiates that last seven years and the abomination being set up marks the middle of that last seven years, then according to what you said the Lord has told you, we should see the abomination within the next 3 1/2 years, correct? Therefore, if we do not see the abomination set up by the end of 3 1/2 years, that would mean that it was not the Lord who told you and that because he cannot lie, which would then make you a false prophetess, correct?

      Was it you or someone else on this site who posted that they had received visions from the Lord regarding America’s demise saying, “You have one minute left” “?” According to Marianne’s caculations, that was supposed to have taken place last August, which makes the person who made the claim a false prophet and that because they said “Thus sayeth the Lord” but here we are, it did’t happen.

      In any case, since you have stated that the Lord said that the covenant has already been made, then we should see the abomination that causes the desolation of Jerusalem set up in approximately 3 1/2 years from now. If it doesn’t happen, then this would make you a false prophetess, because what the Lord says he will perform. Here’s the thing, sometime before the abomination is set up, Israel must be sacrificing in order for the beast to cause them to cease, correct? Therefore, Israel must begin to make sacrifices and offerings sometime soon within the next
      3 1/2 years.

      Move over Harold Camping!

      • slow down here.

        most of the time a Word from the Lord is generalized, and does not give a specific time, and date

        trying to interpret what is said is where we make mistakes.

        but it does not meant the word is not true, but that our interpretation is not correct.

        What does “one minute” mean?

        and then one minute to WHAT is also a puzzle.

        the early church had accurate prophecies which are recorded, and to this day, we are debating what some of them mean exactly.

        again, we can speculate about the covenant and what is in it, and make conclusions, but the bible does not give us a specific answer.

        covenants – treaties – are made all the time, and not all details are given to the public.

        or to ISrael….

        prophecy also states that damascus will be destroyed, and other victories for Israel…it would seem these would occur before Jacob’s g trouble, or maybe not…?

        If Israel achieved some great victories BEFORE any covenant was made, concessions might be made, or Israel might go ahead and build a covenant WITHOUT a covenant, feeling confident that had overcome its opposition.

        WE do not see the bible saying that the covenant ALLOWS Israel to build one.

        only it implies sacrifices stop….and also, they could have sacrifices WITHOUT a temple.

        They already have a “practice temple” near Jericho to train the priests for the 3rd temple….so sacrifices are already going on.

        • Hi Marianne,

          My point here is simple. God’s word is accurate. The manking of the covenant marks the beginning of that last seven years. Likewise, the setting up of the abomination marks the middle of the seven years. If someone is telling me that the covenant has already been made, then from the time it was made we would have 3 1/2 years until the world would see the abomination. We can count on the accuracy of God’s word. Therefore, if Deb is saying that the Lord told her that the covenant has already been made, then it would follow that, according to Scripture, we would have no more than 3 1/2 years before we see that abomination. If the Lord truly told her that, then it would have to be fulfilled. Regarding the accuracy of his word, if I was to be here during that last seven years and the covenant was announced, I would know what to expect 3 1/2 years later. It would be like clock work. I would be able to do the same thing with the seals, trumpets and bowls. I could just follow along with them. I would say, “Ok, now the demons have been let out of the Abyss which means that the 5th trumpet was just blown and I know that that plague lasts for five months and the next thing to happen is that a third of the inhabitants of the earth are going to be killed by 200 million demonic beings. My point is, I could follow it like a road map. By the time the 7th bowl was poured out, I would say, “Ok, get ready because the Lord is about to return,” because he does so shortly after the 7th bowl judgment. So, since the entire time period is seven years in length and the abomination marks the middle and someone says that the covenant has already been make, then I can know what to expect 3 1/2 years after that. God’s word is true and we can count on it and rely upon it.

          Isreal is not going to sacrifice anywhere else but on the site of the Holy Holies with the temple built around it, because they know according to their law that it would be unacceptable to God. If there is one, that location is only for teaching and is not the temple that is spoken of. It must be on the original site and it will be. When it came to the temple, its furniture, its demensions and the way inwhich sacrifices were to be done, God was very specific and Israel is aware of this. The only place that they are going to offer true sacrifices to God is on the site of the original temple. Otherwise, they could have built another temple with the exact same demensions, furniture, etc, a long time ago and started sacrifcing, but Israel knows that it would not be ecceptable to God.

          Of course, we know that animal sacrifices are no longer acceptable, because Jesus offered the ultimate and perfect sacrifice with his own blood. In fact, the require ment for blood was always pointing to Jesus. But as Paul stated, Israel has experienced a hardening of the heart until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in and then God will remove the church and take up where he left off with Israel prior to the inception of the church and thereby bringing to completion what the angel told Daniel regarding his people, Israel:

          “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” (Dan.9:24)

          • look to the UN Conference in chicago right now…..we will hear soon of any more agreements made

            then martial law will take over in this country as the covenant becomes obvious.

            I would think part of the agreement involving the control of ISrael would be to remove America as its ally, so that Israel could be taken over.

            Expect something soon.

            be prepared

            plan on outbreaks in the USA and martial law being enforced out in the open. Right now “peace time” martial law is already in place.

            plan on fires all over the country from warfare, and take over by Russian and Chinese troops who are not only at our borders, but already inside our country

            America will go down, and Israel will be abandoned.

            the agreement about Israel is to destroy her, not to allow sacrifices

            Israel will win a victory alone, and set up sacrifices, but there will be a second intrusion into Israel, and then the abomination will be set up….

  94. I can tell you the dream that I had on March 5, 2012 was absolutely from the Lord/Holy Spirit. I will risk my salvation by telling you right now…Thus saith the Lord, we are in the final 7 years now. Quit looking for covenant it has happened. I can promise you I do not want to spend eternity in Hell, this dream as I said and will keep saying was from the Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Master, my Savior..my ALL…I would never jeopardize my salvation by telling or making up anything and using the Lords name. Pray that the Holy Spirit speak to you on this.

  95. Hi! Are you stonned?

    • ha ha ha

      you are close!

    • Only HIGH and ON FIRE for our LORD YESHUA Don.

      Just expressing my total and all encompassing LOVE and Heart for Him.

      Praise Yeshua our KINNG of kings and LORD of lords.

      Amen.
      Love,

      a.

      • Hi Alienated,

        Regarding:
        “Only HIGH and ON FIRE for our LORD YESHUA Don.
        Just expressing my total and all encompassing LOVE and Heart for Him.
        Praise Yeshua our KINNG of kings and LORD of lords.”

        This was not directed to you, but this was my response to 4android4 regarding his claim that Jesus is no longer at the right hand of the Father, but is currently residing in the Vatican.

        • Hi Don,

          Thanks for the clarification, but it’s no biggy.

          I agree with everything that you expressed to Al regarding the Law.

          EVERYTHING THAT IS OUR HOPE IS SOLEY YESHUA AND NOTHING ELSE.

          HE IS OUR SAVIOR AND HAS FULFILLED THE LAW ON OUR BEHALF TO BECOME THE WORTHY AND UNBLEMISHED LAMB WITHOUT SPOT.

          HE ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING AND WE TRUST ONLY IN HIM!

          PRAISE THE WORTHY LAMB AND KING OF kings AND LORD OF lords.

          AMEN.

          LOVE,

          a.

  96. Just FYI, the Vatican didn’t exist when Jesus was 3 to 5 years old. In fact, it did’t come into being until after Constantine deemed that Christianity was to be the official religion of Rome, which was in the 4th Century AD. I’m affraid that when Jesus was 5 years old, Rome was just pagan Rome. But today it is paganism wearing Christian clothing. I swear it by he 13th century BC Egyptian obelisk that is sitting in the middle of St. Peter’s square, really!

  97. I did not say that the Abomination of Desolation would be set up in appx 3 1/2 years from now as the Lord did not say “the covenant JUST happened” stop looking for it. For all I know it could have happened 1 year ago or 2 or 3 years. That He DID NOT TELL ME. I don’t care if you don’t believe. That is your choice and believe me I completely understand if you don’t. Yes…there have been many folks out there that set dates, times, etc. I have never claimed to know any date or time. I just KNOW the He gave me those specific words “the covenant has happened quite looking for it.” So be watchful. I am not worried about being claimed a “false prophetess”…I am not even claiming to be a prophetess at all. I am just repeating my dream and it was from the Lord. He is moving in me as I type this to you. I wish I had an explanation. I don’t. It is real. Are you a “scoffer” as the Bible says will be in the last days?

    • Helllo agian Deb and all,

      You said:
      “I just KNOW the He gave me those specific words “the covenant has happened quite looking for it.” So be watchful”

      As I said previously, if the covenant has been made as you just claimed and the word of God is accurate, then according to Scripture, the abomination would have to be set up within the next 3 1/2 years. You can’t get away from that time line! If God says that he makes a covenant with many for seven years and in the middle of the seven years that beast causes the daily sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination in the temple, then you by telling us that the covenant has already happened, then naturallly, the abomination must follow 3 1/2 years from that time. Do you see my point? What I am saying is that according to Scripture, if the covenant was to be made today, then 3 1/2 years from now the abomination would have to be set up and that because God’s word says so. This Scripture is an exact time-line and the covenant that is made starts the clock. From the time the covenant is made 3 1/2 years will pass and that abomination will be set up. I don’t know how else to say it. By proclaiming that the Lord told you that the covenant has already been made, that would have started the clock ticking leading up to the middle of the seven. Does anyone else understand what I am saying here?

  98. Hi 4android4,

    Forgive me, but Roman Catholicism is the largest pagan system on planet earth and is hiding right out in plain site. She is the woman who rides the beast. What can be said about a system that believes that Jesus’ sacrifice only paid for “Original sin” and that the sins committed after that must be dealt with through sacraments which are meted out by so-called priests. Would that not be forgiveness of sins by works?

    What do you say about a belief system that holds Mary as being a co-savior, co-mediator, sinless, ascended to heaven, queen of heaven, etc, etc? Surly she was a blessed woman used of God to bring our Lord in