A Rapture codicil for Last Will and Testament
For a long time, I enjoyed thinking about the Rapture, and if it were true, and when it might happen, if true. But I had never put too much thought into what would happened to those left behind to people I cared about, if there was a rapture and I was in it.
So what I am doing now is updating my Last Will and Testament, and including a codicil to the Will which addresses the Rapture. Most wills being executed are based on a person’s death, not their disappearance. If I just disappear, then my family will be stuck in limbo. Of course, I would like them to come with me, but that is God’s decision, not mine. Also, I sense that my generation is not living as long as other generations, so updating a Will is a good idea.
I found a template on the Internet, which I am providing here, if anyone wants to use it to update their Will. If you do not have a will at all, this might be a good time to write one. Each day we are faced with the possibility of not being here tomorrow, so protecting those we love is important.
Once downloaded, you can fix the formatting and the content. Also, someone suggested a living trust instead of a will. Check the comments for any better ideas.
*** update 5-6-09 After some thought, I have decided to keep all provisions in the main will. The codicil could be overlooked. I added a Catastrophic circumstances clause, which in event of act of war, act of God, or criminal act of man, death certificates, or verifying deaths may not be possible, especially if there is mass death, and/or lack of social order or law enforcement. In this case, notarized statements from 4 credible witnesses as to the “disappearance” of my family or myself, will be an acceptable substitute for a death certificate.
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Click here for codacil document
“The rapture” is a theological invention, dated to some time during the 1800s. The apostolic Church would not be familiar with the notion.
Hi Brian,
Some people believe in the rapture, some don’t. This is for those who do, to give them peace of mind. For me, I am undecided, so it is just a “just in case” measure.
blessings
marianne
With all due respect, Brian, prove your assertion. The simple fact is that you cant. That misguided barb is one worn thin. That the idea of a rapture has been coddled together by the hysterical musings of a 19th century witch and her affiant followers is heresy. It’s paper thin to argue that the rapture is unbiblical because the word doesnt occur in the Bible. I almost feel burdened by having to explain this, but It’s necessary that it’s clear. A superficial study of the word ‘rapture’ will yield the fact that it is a colloquialism for the greek word ‘harpazo’, the word used in Thess. by Paul by the unction of the Holy Spirit. The word means to snatch away with violence (Think pulling someone out of the ocean by their hair and you get the gist). As if that werent enough, the word ‘moment’ in the text is the word ‘atomos’ from which we get our word atom. Paul used that word to indicate a span of time so small it was indivisible. Why go to the trouble of detailing an event if it werent to happen? As a result of the Catholic churchs attempts to stifle the explosive growth of Christianity, (and no, Catholics are NOT Christians), the word was suppressed in the english language. But there is a wealth of historical material, dating back to the first century that indicates that there was a remnant who maintained the original teaching of the rapture. First century saints used the greeting “maranatha” (the Lord cometh) with one another. Coincidence? There are those that contend that this was in reference to his second coming to earth, but that is a misunderstanding of the word. The word expresses imminence; they expected a soon coming Lord. Jesus himself said that his coming would be as a thief. Coincidence? Hardly. To assert that this teaching is contemporary is blind and reckless, my friend. I sincerely pray that the Spirit of God reveal himself more fully to you and make you ready for that day. Maranatha!
Brian, it is sad that Satin has blinded your knowledge of the Bible. I pray that the Lord God opens your eyes, before it’s too late.
Oh my, I have to agree with Brian.
“Some people believe in the rapture, some don’t. This is for those who do, to give them peace of mind. For me, I am undecided, so it is just a “just in case” measure.”
I realize Marianne some do believe in a pre-trib rapture. But there is absolutley nothing in scripture that supports it, absolutley nothing. I fear so many will lose hope as their love waxes cold when they realize where they are in time. For them it may be sudden realization that maybe Christ does not exist because He didn’t come when some teaches said he would. These frightened who have only fed on milk will suffer dreadfully as scoffers will say “Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
Learn to encourage one another to rest on His promise. Fight a good fight, stay the course and keep the faith.
That Day is coming soon.
David, I looked at your post of Aug.18,’08, and you are in that post, catagorically opposed to the pre-trib rapture fraud, and even saying quote; “But there is absolutely nothing in scripture that supports it, absolutely nothing”, end quote.
I do not see any “sitting on the fence” here at all. I see you squarely on the correct side of the fence, oposing the false pre-trib rapture agenda. ( and yes they do have an agenda)
The warning you proceeded to give in that same post, was timely and very correct. How is it possible for you to have been so deceived ?
Is this the doing of that false teacher and “alarmist” Perry Stone ?
You need to realy “hunker down” with my book and an open KJV bible, and get yourself anchored in the Word of God, so that you are not “tossed to anfd fro” with every “wind of doctrine”
Morgan Sorensen
(and no, Catholics are NOT Christians) And so are some protestants NOT Christains. I travel extensivley and have attended many churches. Some are dead, some barley alive others an inspiration. Yet everyone proclaims to be a Christain. But what is that makes one a Christain?
Hi David,
There are scriptures that do seem to point to a pre-tribulation rapture, which is why people believe in it. It is a matter of interpretation. I just put the choice there, for people to be aware of it. I do not bother to defend this one position. People can search the internet and make a decision.
For me personally, I do not know how long I will live, or if I will be here tomorrow. We should all live like this is our last day on earth, and not worry about the future. It is nice to discuss the bible in general and passages that might refer to the future, but we do not know who will still be living at that time, and who won’t.
I see who will “make it” as a Christian as a small remnant. Biblical history describes the whole chosen people as God deals with them, but then only the remnant passes the test of faith.
While there are many that claim to be Christians in these later days, many will “remain behind” because they have assimilated into the world and its values, and not “gone forward.” in their faith and passion. Jesus said that we, faithful believers, will face tribulation in our lives. Only those who endure to the end will be saved.
what makes a christian?
Jesus is not coming back for the “church christian.” He is coming back for a pure and spotless bride, one full of his love and holiness.
Heaven is not a cheap deal for the passive who want to get in on lip service to God. Heaven is for those who have put their lives on the line for what they believe, and are willing to be tested, and are willing to sacrifice everything for the God of their hearts. They are obedient when it makes them lose in the world, they are pure when all around them is compromised and carnal, they are faithful when it looks like god has rejected them in their needs, they continue to believe and pray when God does not seem to answer, they have joy during times of persecution and trial, they share their love when others hate them. They keep their eyes on their savior and Lord, Jesus, when there is no reason to keep on living. They are here to witness to His Love and Mercy to a cruel and horribly sinful world.
They have died to self, and have no goal in life now except to witness to His presence and salvation. It is like they no longer exist, and only He exists. They spend more time on their knees than they do trying to succeed in the world. They live for His glory, not theirs. They have passion, purpose and love that cannot be quenched, because Jesus lives in their hearts, and the presence of the Holy Spirit covers them. They are the ones who think of him all day, and even on their bed they think of Him. He is their only focus. Everything that is of the world is only temporal and secondary. The real believer will fall on their knees in worship at the very mention of the Lord. The Lord is holy and worthy of the greatest praise.
Faithfulness through testing, persecution and trials, unrelenting love, passionate, obedient to the death, a “pure heart and clean hands,” and being light of Christ to a dark and dying world.
God bless you
mariane
Hi, sometimes it’s hard for other to gauge the emotional intent of another over the internet. So please do not be offended because of the simplicity of my next question.
What scripture ’seems’ to make one think this?
My first thoughts are of Daniel. Every prophetic chapter tells of Anti-Christ prevailing over the saints for a period of 1260 days. This 1260 days will be a time of great tribualtion for the saints as they will be persecuted. It will begin at the mid-week point known to us as Daniels 70th week.
In Mathew 24:29 Jesus speaks of things which will happen ‘immediately after the tribulation of those days’ namely His return. Upon further reading we find only when he returns does they gather his elect. There is only one elect believers in Christ those of whom have confessed the Liord Jesus and believe in their hearts God has raised Him from the dead. No matter what organization they are affiliated with.
Hi David,
As far as my own personal beliefs, I am just undecided. I am more concerned with when I really leave this earth, and if my affairs will be in order at that time. Why I leave is only a secondary consideration. I just try to cover all the bases, and then whatever happens is God’s will.
What Jesus says in Matthew 24, which is clearly stated, does not seem to point to a pre-trib rapture. People who look at other scriptures tend to think that Jesus was referring only to his final return, ie 2nd coming, rather than the “rapture,” which seems to come from other scripture.
They view those that go through the tribulation as those who were not saved to begin with, but get saved later – during the tribulation.
I think it might be better to just focus on our own readiness to leave this earth at any time, rather than looking for a particular event. I am 57 years old, and will be 58 in a few months. Many people my age are dying early, which is atypical, compared to our parent’s generation. I could die next year, for all I know. Someone who is younger might entertain a rapture concept, since a natural death seems so far away in time to them.
When I write, I am thinking of those who will remain behind me on this earth, the different questions they might have, and different viewpoints that might be around. I try to say something about these topics.
My general philosophy is one which I have had most of my life. God tests each one of us. There is a certain amount of “tribulation” that each saint must go through to be proven faithful. It does not have to be a global event. Once that person has established their faithfulness, and has endured a certain amount of personal tribulation known to God, then they should not have to go through a global event. Possibly, those who have not reached this critical testing threshold would have to be tested during the final global tribulation. Of course, this part is just my opinion. But it seems fair that God would test everyone the same, not in the same manner, but according to some criteria he has set for each person, knowing their strengths and weaknesses.
blessings
marianne
Hi Marianne,
I suppose it’s one thing to know it may not happen and therefore be prepared. But another to blindly accept it when nothing in scripture supports it. Those people who do are in my opinion in grave danger when they as I said before come to realize the times they are in.
One religon in particular denies the Sonship of Christ and says their is no Mashiach. When those who expect to be caught up in the so called rapture find themselves still here in great tribulation I bet you dollars to donuts a vast majority will lose hope and find themselves agreeing with those scoffers who will say; see! for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
Your friend in Christ
David
Hi David,
I agree. I think the concept of the remnant will finally be understood during the tribulation, when most will find out that they were not part of the remnant after all. I guess it is why Jesus said to rejoice when we experience tribulation and trials in our lives. He is giving us a chance to prove ourselves now, so we do not have to suffer worse things later.
I am personally excited about the second coming. I will be glad when the evil is finally overcome in this world, and it is a good place to live once more. I sometimes try to imagine what a garden of eden is like. I am looking forward to seeing the new heavens and new earth.
blessings
marianne
David,
I’ve certainly enjoyed your viewpoint. I would like to speak to one element of your postings, the supposed dearth of scripture to support a pre-trib rapture. While this comment cannot be exhaustive, brevity might do well elsewhere, so bear with me. Matthew 24:44 has our Lord telling us to be ready for in such an hour that we think not, the Son of Man cometh”. Only the time before the tribulation allows for such a passage to have weight. The “church”, as it were, is noticeably absent in the book of Revelation post chapter 4. Instead we see multitudes of the redeemed. The “great tribulation” of the 14th verse of the 7th chapter is a general term, used to indicate struggle, what the word earlier calls “the perfecting of the saints”. The longer we remain on this earth, the worse things become. To assuage concerns within the Thessalonian church over whether their tribulations were the “Great Tribulation” spoken of by Jesus, Paul gave them the clarification in 2 Thes 2:1-6. By the way, the wrath that is to come, isnt for the saints. 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”. We can only use the Bible to judge the Bible. While I could continue, I’ll instead refer you to the myriad typologies in the word: Noah-warning-remnant-escape-flood, Sodom-warning-remnant-escape-fire, Egypt-warning-remnant-escape-judgement, Babylon-warning-remnant return-miscegination, Daniel-warning-remnant-Antiochus Epiphanes. Isaiah 26:19-21 holds one of the many Old Testament references to the rapture. This scripture isnt allegorical. It isnt historical. Most succinctly, it’s yet to be fulfilled: “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (Rapture) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. (Marriage Supper) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (Tribulation) Apologies in advance to Marianne for posting this, I mean no disrespect, http://www.raptureready.com/rr-jesus-rapture.html This site has HUNDREDS of articles rebutting the idea that there isnt scriptural support for a pre-trib rapture. Support that this comment simply cannot address in the space alotted.
Hi Amardo,
Thank you for the information on the rapture. I will let David know you have a message for him. He has a blog, but I do not know if he has a direct comment feedback link to here. There is a lot of information in what many people might consider a very short new testament. Maybe I should have a pro and con page for the rapture.
blessings
marianne
While this comment cannot be exhaustive, brevity might do well elsewhere, so bear with me. Matthew 24:44 has our Lord telling us to be ready for in such an hour that we think not, the Son of Man cometh”.
Yes I agree no man man knows the hour or day. However we are explicitly told in Mathew 24 it will be after great tribulation what hour or day I do not know. Then we shall the sign of the coming of the Son of Man.
Only the time before the tribulation allows for such a passage to have weight. The “church”, as it were, is noticeably absent in the book of Revelation post chapter 4. Instead we see multitudes of the redeemed.
Yes and how are they redeemed? How do they hear Gods word? Were we not told to go out unto all the nations and preach the gospel and not to fear for Jesus said he will be with us even until the last day? Wouldn’t that imply our commision doesn’t end until the last day?
The “great tribulation” of the 14th verse of the 7th chapter is a general term, used to indicate struggle, what the word earlier calls “the perfecting of the saints”.
I looked it up in the dictionary:
Middle English tribulacion, from Anglo-French, from Latin tribulation-, tribulatio, from tribulare to press, oppress, from tribulum drag used in threshing, from terere to rub — more at throw
Date: 13th century
: distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution; also : a trying experience
I’ve said else where it is written in Daniel Anti-Christ prevails over the saints great tribulation the last 1260 days of Daniels 70th week. Immediately after great tribualtion the wicked will suffer Gods wrath. Probably sometime in the additional month of days (1260 + 30 = 1290) written in Daniel chapter 12 I just don’t know the hour or day.
The longer we remain on this earth, the worse things become.
True
To assuage concerns within the Thessalonian church over whether their tribulations were the “Great Tribulation” spoken of by Jesus, Paul gave them the clarification in 2 Thes 2:1-6. By the way, the wrath that is to come, isnt for the saints. 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”.
I agree the saints escape Gods wrath. But all saints suffer tribualtion at one time or another in life. As will those in the last week of Daniel at the hand of Anti-Christ.
We can only use the Bible to judge the Bible. While I could continue, I’ll instead refer you to the myriad typologies in the word: Noah-warning-remnant-escape-flood, Sodom-warning-remnant-escape-fire, Egypt-warning-remnant-escape-judgement, Babylon-warning-remnant return-miscegination, Daniel-warning-remnant-Antiochus Epiphanes. Isaiah 26:19-21 holds one of the many Old Testament references to the rapture. This scripture isnt allegorical. It isnt historical. Most succinctly, it’s yet to be fulfilled: “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (Rapture) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. (Marriage Supper) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
I do not have my bible with me at the moment to research these topics you posted. But I have a question for you is not when the dead rise called the resurection?
“Daniel-warning-remnant-Antiochus Epiphanes”
By whose authority do you add to what God has already interpreted for us? Nowhere in Daniel does God refer to the little horn as Antiochus. To further support this in Mathew 24 Jesus spoke about the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. But it was in reference to a question posed by one of his diciples which dealt with a future event, Antiochus died 190 years the question was asked. The horn before whom 3 others fell, the little horn, the vile person all refer to Anti-Christ.
(Tribulation) Apologies in advance to Marianne for posting this, I mean no disrespect, http://www.raptureready.com/rr-jesus-rapture.html This site has HUNDREDS of articles rebutting the idea that there isnt scriptural support for a pre-trib rapture. Support that this comment simply cannot address in the space alotted.
I’m at a public library I would like to continue probably Monday.
David
Hi David,
I looked at http://www.raptureready.com/rr-jesus-rapture.html and it seems to support a phase 1 and phase 2 of the tribulation, which sounds like a rapture occurs. I look forward to further explanation, unless that is a wrong page on the site.
blessings
marianne
Marianne,
These words phase one and phase two are not there. It is clearly written the ’saints will be given into his hand (Anti-Christ) and he shall prevail over them. A timeline of events is given in Daniel. Terminus of 69th week is when messiah the Prince was rejected by Jerusalem. The 70th week begins when the prince that shall come makes a covenant with many. 1260 days later (mid-week) great tribulation begins and lasts for another 1260 days. In chapter 12 of Daniel those who last until from the time of the abomination of desolation (mid-week) until 1290 days are blessed. There is additional 30 days here AFTER the tribualtion. This is reflected in Mathew 24:29 when it is written that — Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.—
When he gathers His elect it will be AFTER great tribulation. The dead first THEN those who remain (remain from after what?) will be caught up. There is only one resurection and that is when Yeshua returns.
Nobody alive will be caught up before the dead.
John 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me,
that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up at the LAST DAY.”
John 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me,
that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.”"
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.”
John 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.”
1Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Here is websters 1828 deffinition
TRIBULA’TION, n. [L. tribulo, to thrash, to beat.] Severe affliction; distresses of life; vexations. In Scripture, it often denotes the troubles and distresses which proceed from persecution.
When tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, he is offended. Matt.13.
In the world ye shall have tribulation. John 16.
————————————–
WRATH, n. [L.]
1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.
When the wrath of king Ahasuerus was appeased–Esther 2.
O Lord–in wrath remember mercy. Habakkuk 3.
2. The effects of anger. Proverbs 27.
3. The just punishment of an offense or crime. Romans 8.
Gods wrath, in Scripture, is his holy and just indignation against sin. Romans
Tribulation is not a as some say a ‘general term’ for wrath. As Websters 1828 dictionary clearly differentiates one from another.
Tribualtion is persecution of the saints.
Wrath is God’s anger poured out on the wicked.
Hi DaviD,
This was on the page you referred me to. So that is why I questioned it. It did not agree with your point. This is where it says Phase I and Phase 2.
I think you and I may be on the same page. I have always expected the saints to go through tribulation , and the wicked to experience wrath. That is why I assume the future “difficult period” has 2 parts…first a tribulation period where the saints have to struggle against evil in this world, and second, a time of wrath that follows. In between Jesus, would return for the saints, to keep them from the time of wrath. But then, there are passages telling the saints to hide themselves, so I do not know where that fits in.
I wonder if we agree, but we just say things differently.
Still since I am older, I may not live to see any of this. I may be gone the natural way and miss what happens next.
blessings
marianne
At present I lean towards a post tribulation pre-wrath rapture but I presently have difficulty with that too. It may be that the saints will suffer tribulation and witness , and escape, the wrath. Either way I cannot submit to a pre-tribulation rapture nothing in scripture supports it.
But be of good cheer Marianne regardless of your age I believe we will see His return soon. Keep your lamp filled with oil.
Your brother in Christ,
David
Hello David, I hope all is well. To address some of your points:
Yes and how are they redeemed? How do they hear Gods word? Were we not told to go out unto all the nations and preach the gospel and not to fear for Jesus said he will be with us even until the last day? Wouldn’t that imply our commision doesn’t end until the last day?
The book of Revelation gives 3 distinct groups of evangelists, all of whom appear subsequent to the church’s absence in the book: the 144,000, the “gospel angel” (if you will), and the two witnesses. With respect to your understanding of tribulation, I’m not certain I see how this conflicts with the idea that the rapture will occur before the tribulation period. Yes, we go through tribulation now, but nothing like what will be seen in that day. There isnt a gradual easing into this tribulation; the very language of the scripture shows it to be sudden and distinct and unlike any the world has ever seen or will see. (What is the stopgap between the general tribulation we go through now and the awe inspiring tribulation to be witnessed by the world? The rapture. The “he that letteth” who “will let” until “he is taken out of the way” prior to the revealing of the son of perdition is the Spirit of God living in the church) There will be a staggering number of people saved during this tribulation period after the rapture. They will not, however, be the bride of Christ. They will be the kings of the Earth who bring their glory into the city (but apparently do not live there) after the great white throne judgement. This body of people is mentioned in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah, and Revelation, to name a few places. They are redeemed, immortal, but not the bride of Christ. They will build homes, plant vineyards and live forever, but in mortal bodies. We (the Bride) have our mansions prepared for us, will live forever, but in glorified bodies. The 30 day difference in Daniel? Rememember the 144,000? They are on the earth in the 7th chapter after the rapture (which many believe occurs in the 4th chapter of Revelation) but in heaven in heaven in the 14th chapter. “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth”. Redeemed when? 30 days after the 1260 period. They are taken from the earth and join the Bride. The dead rising in the passage in Isaiah I quote that you reference are the same as the “dead in Christ” who rise first. Why first? To be reconnected with bodies. Those still living will already have bodies. Once they “catch up” to us, in a sense, then all of our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible. All of this occurs instantaneously. I add nothing to scripture by interpreting it or by using it to understand historical events. Please, I feel that was a an unneccessary attack. ALL that this is, this site, all prophecy, all study is interpretation of scripture. That said, scripture is full of types and shadows. Jesus told listeners that Elijah had already come in the person of John the Baptist, but that he would come again. Contradiction? Adding to scripture? Not for the mature scholar. John the Baptist’s entree into the world was a shadow for Elijah’s return (with Moses) in the book of Revelation as one of the two witnesses. Antiochas Epiphanes was a type, a shadow of the coming man of sin, the anti-Christ- he wore out the Jews, exalted himself as God and brought an abomination (a sacrificed swine) that made desolate (the departure of the Spirit from the temple). Shadows and types exist for two reasons: to validate the truth of scripture and to warn the elect that judgement is coming. The coming man of sin will wear out the saints, bring about the final abomination that makes desolate and proclaim himself as God. This begs the question, if the world is experiencing the most horrifying calamity ever, why would it mourn when the Lord returns to end it? That dispensation is over. If you arent saved by then, its over for you. There will be people born during the millenium who will be saved (the aforementioned immortals on earth) but nothing in scripture indicates they had prior knowledge or exposure and no dispensational precedent supports it. One big thing that neither you, nor any who assert that there is no rapture or that it only occurs after the tribulation have NEVER been able to answer is this: When the Lord returns to earth after the tribulation, he has saints with him. WHO ARE THEY AND WHERE DO THEY COME FROM? The Lord will indeed gather his elect from the 4 corners of the earth, but these elect are those who havent bowed to the anti-Christ, saved, who will live forever, but not in resurrection bodies and not in the New Jerusalem. My friend I dont know where you are in your journey; I respect and appreciate your insight. Continue to pour over the scripture and know it, learn it, because you wont always have your bible with you and cant simply say to someone who asks about the reason for for your faith that you dont have it. Finally, irrespective of experience, study, conjecture, supposition, theory or interpretation, NONE of us know all the answers and wont until it happens. Until it does, we must use scripture to interpret scripture. Never use a dictionary to interpret scripture because there is nuance in biblical contemporary thought, tradition and etymology that is lost on us today and certainly in the dictionary.
Hi Amardo,
Good points. We will see if and how David responds.
blessings
marianne
I forget what it is called, but it is a “law” in Biblical discernment using a different but previous example to determine the meaning of a later verse. This is an example of that: Enoch was alive AT THE SAME TIME as Noah, just before God judged the earth with a flood.
Twice, God said Enoch walked with God, and He took (raptured) him. Once, God said Noah walked with God, and Noah had to stay through the judgment.
Is this then a previous example of some escaping the judgment (wrath) by means of a rapture?… DavWms
Hi David,
Either example you used, neither man experienced the wrath of God.
Believers have always gone through some sort of personal tribulation – either as an individual, or in a group with others. This is a testing of the faith. So Jesus says to “endure to the end, and you will be saved.”
Wrath is intended for the wicked. No one, usually, survives the wrath of God. If someone does, it is because God has a reason for it. It is not because they are “lucky.”
Maybe the word you are thinking of is “foreshadowing” or “prototype?”
Does this help any?
blessings
marianne
Hi, back….I wasn’t asking a question, Marianne. I am aware Noah survived in the Ark, and the Jews will survive in Petra during the Trib. I was trying to show the possibility of a pre-judgment rapture for some, but with others left behind to endure. The latter would be unbelievers, but yet children of the promise yet to be saved. (Jews) People are always looking for Biblical proof one way or the other about the rapture timing, and I was trying to mention one more bit to ponder that I haven’t heard preached.
Nope, neither of the words you mentioned was what I was trying to think of, re; previous example. LOL, it is called by Bible scholars, the “law of……..” Guess I’m gittin too old to remember. #;o)
And yes, I’m fully aware of believers going thru personal tribulation. Been there, done that. Still doin that, too. LOL.
DavWms
Hi David
Sorry. My brain is kind of dead today. I went through Hurricane Gustav with someone from New Orleans, a lot of stress, fatigue. Now my state will have Hurricane Hanna tonight through tomorrow morning…then after that Hurricane Ike, already a Category 4.
I am also dealing with 2 family members who are undergoing surgery.
Let me take a nap, and when there is oxygen going to my brain again, I will re-read everything.
thanks for your patience
marianne
Should I say one more thing to ponder about the possible pre-trib rapture? LOL. I dood it! Jesus said no man knows the day or hour of His coming. But in His 2nd coming, people will know the very hour of His coming. The timeline is laid out from the moment the Trib begins, right to where He comes back. But no one would know if it is pre-trib. Just something to ponder..DavWms
Hi David
You dood it? Yes, you dood it alright.
good for you…you are enjoying the word of God..!
blessings
marianne
Okay, let’s add one more twig to the fire re; pretrib rapture. I see some mentioning that the saints will be persecuted during the trib, so they think this means the church will still be on earth. In this, they also assume that the “saints” means the church. Maybe it doesn’t in this case. Let us not forget that 144,000 virgin Jews will spread the Gospel during the trib. Would they and their converts not be called, “saints?” …DavWms
Hey David,
I think people are getting too wrapped up in technical definitions. People are assigning the word “tribulation” to all events written in the book of Revelation. I see 2 main time sections…
tribulation….. where saints could be present.
wrath……where NO saint is present
Jesus comes in between the 2 time sections
Somewhere in there is 7 years.
what do you think?
blessings
marianne
With respect to your understanding of tribulation, I’m not certain I see how this conflicts with the idea that the rapture will occur before the tribulation period.
—————————
The catching up of those who remain to meet the Lord in the air or as some say ‘rapture’ happens at the ‘last day’ not 7 years before it.
In Daniel we are told the 70th week will begin when Anti-Christ makes a covanent with many (no other event is mentioned). In the middle of the week begins tribulation, 1260 days later tribulation ends. In Mathew 24 it is written immediately AFTER tribulation will Christ returns.
In 1 Thessolonians backs this up as well.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Note: the dead shall rise first THEN we (key word we not they) shall be caught up.
1Thessolonians 4:17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Note the similarities between Daniel 12, Mathew 24 and the above passages? 1st tribulation, 2nd immediately after tribulation Christ returns and then the dead in Christ rise then we who remain.
The Holy Spirit is an uppercase H when reffered to as He. The restrainer is a lower case h as in he. The Holy Spirit will be here until the end for there is no other way men can know Christ but by the Holy Spirit. That is written as well in 1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
The restrainer (he) might be the one who holds the keys to the bottomless pit but he sure isn’t the Holy Ghost.
Also note in Revelation when the sixth seal is opened it explicitly states it is the day of his wrath who shall escape? I’ll tell you who, a great multitude from tribulation and 144,000.
That is why there can be know pre-tribulation rapture because your comission does not end intil the last day. Because the first ressurection is at the LAST DAY. Because the living SHALL NOT precede those who are asleep in Christ.
Quote some scripture please that indicate what you say is true AND does not disregard what God has written.
Hi David (LL),
Just to make it interesting, there are 2 Davids on this page. I am not sure if you are talking to him or me here. He is David W. and I think of you as David (LL). I think you and I were answering him at the same time.
So see what I wrote to the other David, above.
I understand things the way you do, although I personally am not too concerned about what will happen to me, since I am old enough where I could die before anything happens.
However, I do see this as an important concept, if people are expecting a rapture to get them out of trouble, when Jesus may not show up until several years later, then they are not prepared for what will happen.
blessings
marianne
Hi, other David….there are a lot of us Davids, huh? I looked up my whole name and found there are 25K plus David Williams, just here in the USA.
This discussion of when is the rapture can have no final answer yet. So I have been tossing a few twigs on the fire, those that I see from my point of view. You can see I know my Bible, so it is not necessary to lay out a lot of verse quotes. EG;, you knew what I meant by 144K converted Jews without my quoting pertinent verses.
Too many times I have seen people arguing a Bible position as a game. You bet one verse, and I raise you two. Many people can quote a host of verses, but often do not see an overall view the Lord is showing. Most have been taught to “stay in context.” I agree, in most places that is proper…but it can also keep some from seeing the big picture. They miss seeing the Lord’s heart, just as the Israelites did from the giving of the Law.
I recently heard of a preacher discussing the rapture with a friend. They ended up agreeing that when it comes, one of them will be able to tell the other on the way up, “I told you so.”..DavWms
Sorry David W. I knew what you meant. But it was the question Armando posed (top of my last post) I was responding to.
Look, a problem lies with those who are teaching others not to worry about it, that they got a ticket on the glory train. How many children still feeding on milk will lose heart how many when they realize Yeshua has not come when certain said He would, will they then say there is no Son. Does anyone ever consider that?
How many will then bow to the god that has no son?
Pre-Trib – Post-Trib
We cannot have it both ways one is a lie the other is not. One may cause some to suddenly loose hope the other, with encouragement, will cause them to fight the good fight and fufill their comission.
I know I will be going out on a limb here but a pre-trib rapture is a lie. I hope you all will look at the scripture. Please lets read it together the truth is in his word not in a dead mans commentary.
——————————-
For David W. I looked at your post concerning the 144,000
**Okay, let’s add one more twig to the fire re; pretrib rapture. I see some mentioning that the saints will be persecuted during the trib, so they think this means the church will still be on earth. In this, they also assume that the “saints” means the church. Maybe it doesn’t in this case. Let us not forget that 144,000 virgin Jews will spread the Gospel during the trib. Would they and their converts not be called, “saints?” …DavWms***
I would ask you to look at Revelation and see when the 144,000 are sealed and the great multitude are given robes made white with the Blood of Christ. This occurs AFTER the sixth seal is opened a period we told in verse 17 is the day of His wrath.
This would indicate the last week of Daniel/tribualtion period is over with.
David S. (LL)
Like I said, we can argue this til Jesus comes, and it is true that one will be wrong. But to assume I don’t know what a price will be paid by many, should it be post-trib….well, you just don’t know my heart. All I was doing in this is putting in some evidence of pre-trib that I don’t see others bringing up. Both of us can be absolutely certain of our position, and it is likely neither will convince the other. Such has history shown.
Frankly, this conversation is a small sideline for me. My ministry is in deliverance, which to me is a much more important subject. Like you pointed out above, many might fall away if the rapture does not happen soon. Likewise, I write about how many, even born-again Spirit filled Christians, have demons. And that our shepherds are not doing their job. They avoid the subject, at the cost of many souls. To me, that is much more important than when we are called up. DavWms
Dang! I keep forgetting to put in this, that I am on the fence myself about when the rapture comes. True, if I fell off on the side I lean towards, it would be PRE by a slight margin. But I would not bet my soul on either way. All I was doing is putting in some of the pro arguement that I don’t see others entering. DavWms
David W,
You will live. So will we.
blessings
marianne
Marianne, David W. I love you both. I do sometimes get angry over because of this blind faith in commentators books rather than soley relying on God’s word. Set them aside and read His without distraction see if what they have said really is what He has written.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. But also encourage one another as well in time of tribulation! The entire New testement is filled to the brim with such examples, and it is not difficult to reason why. So fight a good fight, stay the course and keep the faith! This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the end come. Our comission is to do that preaching.
I expect to be setting sail again. Wife and I are in the Chesapeake Bay area and may not be online for sometime, days, maybe a week before next port. We do try to find a church to attend every Sunday and if time permits I teach end time prophecy particularly from the book of Daniel. So I will check-in from time to time and would love to continue this discussion with ya’all anytime. It needs to be discussed the truth is in His word not a commentators book.
Hi David (LL)
Have a good and safe trip. Interesting. I am from the Chesapeake Bay area originally. The book of Daniel is a very “rich” book when it comes to prophecy. I hope many get saved or receive the enlightenment you have to offer on your trips.
blessings
marianne
Hello Marianne, David(s) et al. This wont be a lengthy post since I think we’ve said quite a bit about the topic already. In fact, I have only two points. First is that the saint who is ready for an imminent, sudden rapture (the thief in the night) will be well prepared for any sort of tribulation be it great or otherwise. To be ready, one must be filled with the Spirit of God, living a holy life, maintain prayer and scripture reading and witness. I honestly can’t find any evidence in the scripture that one can do less and be saved. Those elements, particularly holiness in this wicked world, are all the preparation any person would need to survive tribulation. This isnt escapism. Those who posit that the followers of pre-trib doctrine is an attempt to wuss out dont understand scripture. Those saints (note the word “saint” {hagion}in the New Testament has the same Greek root as the word “holy”- “hag”. Which is why the scripture says in Hebrews to seek peace with all men and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.) who endure the Great Tribulation would by fiat have made the rapture had they known the witness of the Spirit before then. Unlike the misleading of the Left Behind franchise, if you are presented with the chance for salvation prior to the rapture and spurn it, thats it for you. Theres a host of scriptural evidence to validate this notion. There is too, a host of scriptural info to validate my second point, that there is nowhere in scripture that the people of God endure his wrath. Lets put terminology in perspective- the Tribulation period is the 7 year period between the rapture (no man knows when it will be, but all will know once it happens and the wise will begin to countdown from that day) and the second coming. The GREAT tribulation, or God’s wrath, is only the second half of this second year period, cued when the man of sin stands in the temple and declares himself to be god. 30 days after this occasion, the 144,000 are taken from the earth to join the rest of the waiting bride. The only part of the timeline that is unclear is during what period the 2 witnesses are on the earth; some say from the rapture to the wrath, some say that they start shortly before the midpoint and end before the wrath is to conclude. Regardless, why not live your life to be ready in either situation? Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Matt. 24:44) If your life is such that you are prepared for the thief, then it will also be such that you’ll be prepared for the wrath. Oh, one other thing- I mentioned earlier about types and shadows. There are two men in the Bible who never died, Enoch and Elijah. Both are types of the raptured Saint who hasnt died. There is another type, that is Moses. At Jesus’ transfiguration, Moses (dead Saints) and Elijah (living Saints) are present with the glorified Christ. So much for a short post, lol.
Hi Amardo,
I will be glad when all this stuff is behind us, and we are sitting in heaven. Keep looking up, and wait for the western sky to split !!
blessings
marianne
I was taught my whole life that there was indeed a rapture and that it was to be pre-tribulation and that the rapture would included both the dead first, then living saints. However, in light of current events I have looked back to the scriptures and I believes we have already entered into the Great Tribulation on August 8, 2008 When Russia, the Kingdom from the North rolled tanks into Georgia, one of the very first Christian nations. Isn’t the number 8 supposed to refer to a new day, a new week, a new beginning? Also 8+8+8=24 and 2+4=6. I have prayerfully returned to the book of Revelation and believe that as of September 29, 2008 on the cusp of the Jewish New Year with this unprecedented drop in the dow, loaded with the number seven, that the 3rd seal has just been opened. I do however, believe that I recognize the rapture of the living saints just before the opening of the seventh seal so that we may be spared the worse of it. And I know that the Lord has revealed the id of the beast and another and myself are currently building our case which so far only supports our conviction. Please indulge me when I am certain that Obama is The anti-Christ and the fact that so many people online that don’t believe in God and support this but without scriptural authority only convinces me that Satan is trying to use these “fringe” elements to discredit the true saints. The media like CNN thinks if these “nut-jobs” are saying the same thing as the Church then the Church must be wrong. And everything is lining up that I cannot see how Obama cannot win this election. Yesterdays stock marked woes are just the preamble to a great world wide market crash were by domino effect all markets will utterly crash in as little as an hour (thanks to the internet and satellite TV to egg on the panic) rendering all currencies utterly worthless as described in Revelation Chapter 18. I am sure we are now at the third seal and that the living saints will be spared before the seventh seal but from August 8 to September 29 and we are already at the 3rd seal! I am terrified that we are running out of time, there are far too many who blaspheme the Lord and live for Satan and too many of my friends and family are among them. Christ is coming for us soon, we are spared but we must sound the alarm I do not want that blood on my hands if we don’t. I have always been a cool Christian, but slowly around this time last year I began having revelations and I was sure I was going mad (something which I am well familiar with as I know for a fact that I harbored a Jezebel spirit in me for quite sometime without realizing it, I don’t know when it first enter me as I came to the Lord when young but I do know that she nearly caused me to take my own life on more than one occasion) But then I become so ill in early 2008 that I was forced to leave the workforce and then the revelations really started to flood. I am so happy that I finally get to experience what it is like to burn hot for Christ (only wish I could have sooner) But as a former cool Christian I did not know who to tell about my revelations until my aunt came to me saying basically she had suspicions that the Lord was starting to reveal things to me and that she had been hoping for that because she has been experiencing revelations for years (she has always, from my observation, been very much hot in the Spirit.) I am mostly stuck in my apartment researching online to build our case while the TV stays tuned to CNN, are the reporters at CNN aware of some of the language and metaphors they are using when reporting current events. Please I feel very isolated, someone tell me I am not the only one who sees these things. I did not go looking for signs, believe me, but know I see them everywhere. Please someone tell me they see these things too! Personally, so far besides myself I only know of my aunt. I mean if others at Church see things, which I am certain many do, why does it seem everyone is so quiet? Shouldn’t we be sounded the alarm, if not now, when? Any encouragement or insight would be greatly appreciated, this is all very knew to me, unfortunately that Jezebel spirit really kept me occupied for some time and I don’t know how I can be sure that she is gone and not merely laying low.
Hi Beardsley
You are not alone in your thoughts. Many feel like we have already entered into the final days- years before the rapture. This is the Feast of Trumpets, so it is a good day to sound an alarm to everyone. People are quiet because, even though they “know” about things to come, they do not seem real when they are actually happening. People are in disbelief over reality. Since you are at least aware of a jezebel bothering you, just give it up to God, and try to stay humble. A jezebel feeds off pride and ego. You are welcome to post your thoughts here any time.
blessings
marianne
Look up for your redemption draweth nigh!!! I believe we are starting to see the time of toubles even though the world is in denial. The book of Habakkuk. He was burdened for the nation’s sin and asked God why He allows the sin to continue? The prospect of Judah falling to the Babylonians caused the prophet to question God’s ways. Habakkuk learned that God is sovereign. God uses even pagan nations and leaders to accomplish His purposes. Because of what Habakkuk learned about God, he decided to trust God, no matter how desperate things might appear. (Heb 1-2). We learn in this book that “the just shall live by faith.” We learn the following from Habakkuk:
1. God answers prayer. We must pray about everything, We must be particular about what we pray. We must be passionate. We must pray personally and be persistent in our prayer live. 2. God’s Word is to be shared and preached. We must preach the word. We must be clear in what we tell others concerning the word. We must speak it plainly. We must be confident and preach it continually. 3. God’s people live by faith. Know your postion in Christ (Romans). Practice your faith (Galatians). Perservere (Hebrews). Faith comes by hearing the Word. Faith without works is dead. 4, God judges sin, regardless of who sins. In Habukkuk, God gives some woes against those that are involved in sining: Woe to those who are greedy and selfish. Woe to those who covet. Woe to those who exploit or use people. Woe to those who practice idolatry. Sin is rampant in our world BUT He will accomplish all that He says in His Word regarding sinners and sin. God will not abidicate His responsibility. Complaining about siturations will not help this world – Prayer will. The fastest and shortest route to God is on bended knee through Jesus Christ. We serve a holy God and one that will not tolerate sin. Even a nation like America.
Dear Irene
Good insights. Thank you.
blessings
marianne
You are welcome. It is good to share with others. Thanks for your website.
The rapture is a great deception. As the north wind puts the color to the fruit, so tribulation will polish Christians. We will suffer, die, be betrayed, imprisoned. Jesus Christ will come again, but every eye will see Him in all His glory. There is one day of the Lord. This secret catching away deceives in that some will believe the anti-Christ is the Christ and that they have been spared the suffering to come.
Hi Barbara.
There are some views, based on Matt 24, that the “rapture” and the second coming are the same thing, so you fit into that category of thought. Some people lump all events in the book of revelation under the term “tribulation.” I don’t. But this codicil idea is for those who think otherwise. Or, it is a “just in case” measure for those who have not decided what they think.
I tend to think that Christians will go through a tribulation, or a time of trouble, of an undefined time period, then meet Jesus in the air at the end. Once that occurs, the time of wrath begins against the wicked. Somewhere in the 2 experiences is a 7 year block of time.
The secret is to be ready now, and not put off correcting our lives. Jesus indicated that all true believers would experience some sort of tribulation in their lives, whether it is before all these special events, or during them. Many believers are suffering tribulation now, in countries where they are persecuted. I can see how God may spare them a second experience, if they are faithful now through the trials.
blessings
marianne
With such a preponderance of scriptural evidence to support it, the principle reason why people are loathe to accept the pre-tribulation rapture is lack of holiness. The pre-tribulation rapture requires a constant state of readiness, period. The idea that we as saints need further perfecting by going through the tribulation is a fallacy. There is no scriptural precedent for the people of God going through his wrath. The bible even says he hasnt appointed us to wrath. There is no scriptural precedent for the people of God readying themselves to endure some vast hardship. In every instance in the bible where people went through judgement, it was for sin. By virtue of being a part of the Bride of Christ, we are justified, acceptable in the sight of God. On its face, the idea is laughable. “We arent in it today, but we need to get ready for the tribulation, were going through it” etc. etc. Hogwash. The saints have always been spared from judgement, there was always a remnant who did the will of God (think the second generation in the wilderness) who were spared the wrath of God while the wicked were culled. God has not, will not and cannot send judgements upon those who bear his name and carry his spirit. “That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Here in the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the righteous are warned then removed before judgement. (I’ve done this already in an earlier post) Noah was warned of judgement to come, a remnant was taken out, then judgement. Pharaoh was warned of judgement; a remnant was taken out then judgement. Jerusalem was warned of Christ of judgement, a remnant survived, albeit a scattered one, then judgement. I could go on and on, the evidence surely is manifold. I can only pray for those who in the face of such a staggering amount of warning, and scriptural precendent, still choose to live as though the Lord is not coming as a thief in the night. Why in the world would Jesus make such a pointed reference if he intended his people to see the judegement coming then go through it?
What about judgement beginning at the house of God? Glad you asked; the type of judgement intoned here is analysis, testing the substance of, a la Jeremiah 17 ” I the Lord search the hearts, I try the reins…”. The judgements sent upon the world during the tribulation are against sin. Men love the darkness and choose it rather than the light. The Holy Ghost inside us should stir up a sense of restlessness. We were not made for this world. With all the calamity that is occuring even now, I believe the Spirit of God wants us to wake up thinking “Lord is this the day you’ll come? Help me to to be ready”. The bottom line is if you arent ready to go at any moment, you arent ready. If you cannot be in a constant state of readiness now when things are comparatively easy, you’ll die in the tribulation. Not as a martyr for Christ, but bearing the mark of the beast. Why would any of us want to go through that? If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan? (Jeremiah 12:5)
hi Amardo,
I think this is an issue of definitions. The traditional view of the entire Book of Revelation is that it is a time of wrath, where “tribulation” = wrath.
I see tribulation and wrath as 2 separate events. Tribulation first, then Jesus comes, then the wrath comes.
I can see a quieter, difficult period before the time of wrath, where there are endurable trials for the untested saints. Those already tested, of course, would not be tested again.
There are people being tested right now…..some are dying for their faith, and they are not getting raptured.
There are many saints who have not been tested yet, because they are too involved and linked to the world, and its success. Life is easy. They still need to prove themselves, before Jesus comes, because they may die unsaved during the time of wrath
I see Christ coming before the real time of wrath to get his saints, who were tested and found faithful.
I guess some could call what I just said pre-trib, some would call it mid-trib, some would call it post -trib.
Confusing, isn’t it?
I guess the bottom line is that if you have been tested in life, and found faithful, Jesus will come and get you, to protect you from the time of evil and wrath – and what ever name you attach to that time period.
blessings
marianne
Hello Marianne,
These days I am not 100% sure on this subject. I am 100% sure that we are close to the failure of this system. Christ’s warnings are valid and are rapidly becoming the past. I am considered mean and even cruel by some….the Truth cuts coming and going. I am a critical and emotional person at times. Like Peter some times, quick to draw my sword and wound. On the other hand I am unlike him some when it comes to my confession and testimony. Although we all have denied Jesus in our own way. I have to look at it this way, we do need to be ready for His return. Watching and waiting. But we can not be saved but once. The disciples slept and it disappointed Jesus, he did not cast them out though. He wants us to be eager for his coming. As for my will, I must be honest, I am not overly concerned to much about it. What I am concerned the most with is Thieves in this world that are busy stealing money from folks in the name of Jesus Christ, tripping people up with twisted doctrines by way of guilt trips. I would bring them down if I could. Give, give, give and it will be given back and so on. You know the drill. They are not God’s annointed and I will touch them. We don’t need to make a habit of watching them, but we can not pretend we don’t see. TBN is the Root from which many of them derive. Dressing in black, stretching the truth, mixing lies with it. Giving false testimonies and prophecies. Jumping around and garbling with animal like sounds and looking and acting just like the world. Claiming to need funds to spread the Gospel, but never doing it. I can only put it one way. Freaks. They are being blessed by the god of this world. I am hard pressed to find anyone that will even discuss this. This is a major prophecy being fulfilled now. Certain politicians fit the bill also. I may bring you soup in a bucket. Better than no soup. Never call a lumberjack to build a birdhouse. Enough of my rambling. I love all..maybe a little to tough? That’s my nature. I care.
In Christ,
Thomas
Hi Thomas,
I think you are a great person, and an inspiration to me.
blessings
marianne
The Bible says that that dead in Christ shall certainly not precede those of us who are alive. The dead and Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive shall join the Lord in the air. Revelation: those who have not taken the mark of the beast shall be involved in the first resurrection. How many first resurrections are there? (only one) And those who were in the first resurrection will have to have been here during the last 3 and 1/2 years in order to have not worshiped the beast. Hence there is only one rapture, and it takes place immediately after the tribulation of those days, as Jesus says, and at the great trumpet call.
Hi al
I see things as happening kind of like this- see what you think:
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/jesus-the-hallel-and-the-4-day-gap-in-prophecy/
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-144000-and-the-rest-of-the-jews/
blessings
marianne
Marianne, I hope you see Perry Stone’s present TV subject about the pre-trib rapture. He covers the pros and cons better than any i have heard. Look up, for your redemption draws nigh. DavWms
Revelation of mysteries come with God’s revealing it in His time. So until He does this, we are left without really knowing the truth, no matter how many Scriptures we back our opinion up with.
I note that now, some scholars are noting to separate the destinies of the Jews from the destinies of the Christian believers. And indeed, they are different. The non-believing Jews are destined to live thru the millenium on this earth in human bodies, along with other survivors of the Tribulation. By that time, I assume the Jews will believe the truths.
But the believers who return with Jesus will be in their new bodies, unlike the survivors of the wrath of God.
To me, this means we should pay more attention to Paul’s bringing his Gospel to us. (Paul said it was his Gospel.) If he was inspired to write it by the Holy Spirit, then his words are for us, and those Jews who would hear and believe. If we can separate the destinies in our minds as we read the Word, we can discern more about the coming(s) of the Lord. To read messages only meant for the Jews as instructions to present believers will keep us forever confused. Love, DavWms
Hi David,
Those are some interesting thoughts. I had never thought about people having different bodies during the millennium. That means some will still be susceptible to fatigue, sickness, etc.
I guess when we read any of the scriptures, we should keep in mind the different applications for various “types” of believers and non-believers.
blessings
marianne
Yes, the survivors will probably have fatigue and such, but we are also told that if one dies before, (I think, can’t remember for sure) a hundred years old, he will have died as a baby.
If you remember, I have been on the fence about pre-trib vs another time rapture, but slightly leaning to pre. With reading the above about two destinies, I am now leaning almost all the way toward pre.
I think the recent teaching on two destinies may be the key to solving many mysteries we have been so confused by. To see Paul was talking almost exclusively to believers changes the point of view. Really, he claimed it was “his” gospel, as if separate but not abiblical from previous teachings. DavWms
Hi David,
I think the use of the term “tribulation” does not always fit with the descriptions Jesus gave.
IT has become over used to include every aspect of the last days.
Jesus said believers would go through tribulation, which has been true for centuries. He also gave a definition of “tribulation” when he was discussing this. He never said believers would experience the wrath of God.
When people speak of pre-trib, mid-trib, or post -trib. they are erroneously assuming everything in the last days, including the entire book of Revelation, is the defining point for their term tribulation. The beast does not even show up until chapter 13.
To me, we as believers, will experience the trials and tribulations of our generations (wars, famines, poverty, etc), just like all past generations have done. We need to be tested too. But there is a difference between hardships, and maybe even common dangers and problems in society, and the horrible torture and punishment reserved for only the wicked. We are spared from real hell, whether it occurs on earth or the next life.
So, I believe this way, no matter what the terminology is for it.
blessings
marianne
Maybe I am too general in how I write. I am talking about that particular 7 year period most consider the Tribulation Period. (Capitalised.)
LOL, I am well aquainted with having tribulation in my life. It is worse, I think for those who go thru the Narrow Gate Jesus said few would find. I remember back to when the Holy Spirit came upon me after i had been asked to open a meeting with prayer. All present fell to the floor as the words poured out. Near the end was a warning to follow Jesus, rather than a man. The leaders’ heads popped up, showing dismay. The teacher changed his subject to proving we are to follow men as our shepherds.
This ‘unteaching” my prayer continued the next 2 weeks. When it was over, I went to the teacher and thanked him for his gentleness as he taught. It was hot that nite, and I stepped outside to cool a little. There, I felt the Presnce, and had to sit down or I would have fallen down. I heard, “You handled that well. I am going to bless you.”
Then is when my church began persecuting me unmercifally. They wanted me out of there, and eventually put me on trial on lies. They found me guilty of those lies. And even after one of the liars repented and told it had been lies, they left all their penalties on me. At first, I did not thnk this was a “blessing.” But I soon came to know it was, as God was showing me what is in the hearts of many church teachers. That they persecute anyone who dares to not fall under their control. Many more lessons came from that, as well. This did not take place in a few weeks. It took several years of tribulation.
So I know tribulation. Beyond that, I also learned what complete forgiveness for my enemies really is. It goes far beyond the words we might say out of obedience to the Bible
Yes, I can look back to even before that meeting and know I asked God to cleanse me of anything in me that did not please Him. I now know that is entering the Narrow Gate. Many who ask that run when the persecution or other hard trials come. I am blessed to have taken that Narrow Path. Now, I try to help others who think the trials and tribulations they find themselves in is not God abandoning or punishing them. It is the Narrow Path, but the churches do not seem to know this. Love, Dave
Hi David,
For me, I call the first period tribulation, which includes everyone on earth, believers, and unbelievers. This would include seals 1-6. I also want to note that the time preceding the 7 years may not be that pleasant either. The 7 seals may actually be before the 7 years, as the time frame is not given. This includes war, famine, and martyrdom.
Once the period of wrath starts, the second period, I do not believe those who “passed the test” would still be around.
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/jesus-the-hallel-and-the-4-day-gap-in-prophecy/
During all this, Israel is protected from her enemies, according to Rev 12. She is secluded in her “wilderness” while God deals with her enemies and the beast. By this time, Israel is crying out for her Messiah. And he will come for her, as promised.
blessings
marianne
I too, expect things to get much worse for even believers, before the Trib. I believe we are seeing the “birth pangs” even now. I am making plans for several options that may be left for me. For starters, I have gathered much non-perishable foods. Every time I go to the store, I bring home 2 of those 2-1/2 gallon water containers.
Another possibility is for me to take to the woods. I still have much hunting and camping equipment, if that becomes necessary. I know how to survive in the forests.
But the most likely way i see, I will take in my ‘adopted’ family and provide for them what I can. So much depends on so many possibilities that may come.
It will all likely work out in ways we do not expect, but for sure, there will be increasing problems as we near the Tribulation. Don’t think by any of this I do not expect the Lord to take care of His own. Love, Dave
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with [1] a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. SAYS IT ALL, THERE WILL NOT BE A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE,, WAKE UP PEOPLE, GET PREPARED,LIVE FOR HIM..
Hi Deb,
I agree. I think most of us will go through this, unless we just happen to die ahead of time. I try to reach everyone with varying views here. Maybe they do not “see” this yet. There are other posts which try to explain what you are saying. One way or the other, I want them to think about their lives, and preparing for what comes next.
blessings
marianne
I finally remembered the term I had forgotten in an above post. It is, “The law of previous mention.” In other words, like Solomon told us, things will happen on earth in a circle pattern. That what has happened before will happen again. And from a previous mention, we can understand prophecy.
I mentioned above about Enoch being raptured just before the flood judgment. This morning I heard Perry Stone also show this is part of the circle. And that the rapture (of those walking with God) will happen just before the judgment. (Tribulation.)
I wish he had also shown that Jews and Christians have different destinies, as that would open up proof of a pre-trib rapture even more. So many take Bible verses meant only for the surviving Jews as for the Christians, also. No wonder there is so much confusion. It is hard to take in all the evidence before us at once, and most just have a few single isolated verses they count on to prove their case… DavWms
Hi David,
I understand what you mean. I think what causes confusion also is that we are trying to treat all Christians alike. There seems to be scripture evidence for believers around during the 7 years, tribulation, time of trouble, etc.
We forget the parable of the 10 virgins. They were all pure and good, and invited, but only half were ready, and got into the marriage.
I think the Bride will be raptured. The church itself, which is unprepared, will be left behind to go through the time of trouble, in order to remove the spots and wrinkles, and to test the faith. They will be with the converting Jews during Jacob’s trouble for the 3 1/2 years. They will either survive, or be martyred.
I also believe that much of what we call the tribulation is actually the time of wrath, which is ONLY for the wicked. I believe Jesus returns at the end of Jacob’s trouble, to rescue the believing Jews and tested Christians. This is the second coming. Once this is done, the wrath begins, and only the wicked are left on earth to suffer.
blessings
marianne
Yep, you pretty much laid it out like I believe, Marianne. Song of Solomon speaks of this rapture, I believe. The groom comes for his bride, skipping across the mountain peaks, but does not really come down to the earth. She is called UP to meet him there and go into the bridal chamber.. DavWms
May I weigh in on this topic ?
I am a missionary/author, almost 45 years in ministry. My whole life has been dedicated to this issue of the first resurrection.
Back in 1967 I wrote a thesis on the first resurrection and it’s seven diferrent orders, that was to be my Doctoral thesis. But no seminary wanted to even look at it, because it’s title obviously declared it an opposition to the popular,(un-assailable ? ) pre-trib theory.
In the winter of 1983/84, I penned a manuscript entitled;
“None Dare Call It Deception” (copyright 1984) In the book I also predicted correctly the break-up of the four Balkan states, and the “political Fall” of Russia,(5 and 6 years before it happened) while I was refuting the “Revived Roman Empire” theory.
This book has recently been published, and is available on my website, which comes up when you put your ‘cursor’ on my name at the bottm of this post. (Thanks Marianne)
My book is a doctrinal treatise on the correct Biblical doctrine of the first resurrection, and it’s seven distinct and different orders, and totally refutes the “pre-trib Rapture fraud, or any other “singular” taking away theory currently entertained by apostate modern theology.
I have issued challenges to most of the so called pre-trib teachers/propagators, such as Todd Strandberg/Rapture ready, Tommy Ice/ pre-trib reasearch center,
John Ankerberg/ Ankerberg reasearch, David Reagan/Lamb lion ministries, Dave Hunt/ the Berean Call, Dallas Seminary, Perry Stone/Voice of Evangelism, and many, many more. They all seem to be RUNNING and HIDING. They all are afraid to debate me, or even to get into a cordial discussion. ( I am a very like-able guy)
One of the great secrets that theologians coceal, as they ought to know Greek, is the fact, that the most used “proof text” passage for a pre-trib rapture, 1.Thess.4:13-20, actually in two verses, verse 15 and 17, totally refutes any pre-trib occurance. The English KJV reads in both those verses as follows; “We that are alive and REMAIN”. This does not indicate any time-line of occurance. Hence, free speculation ! and false doctrines, as the pre-trib fraud.
Here is the proof in the Greek text inverse 15 and 17. “We the living, the ones SURVIVING”. Now this, presents a definite time- line, that ties in with what Jesus said to the Disciples in Mt.24, when they asked him about “his comming” and the “End of the world”.
Jesus said, that there would be Tribulation as was never before, no never would be thereafter. So it is clear from the Greek text of 1.Thess.4:15,and 17, that the SURVIVING mentioned, refers to this time of tribulation.
(Any one can look up the Greek text on google,and read it for themselves, by searching “scripture4all.com”)
Other questions that disprove a pre-trib theory, are the time of the Bema judgment, and All who must appear.
If every christian must appear before the Judgment seat of Christ, and the Bible does catagorically declare that, in 2.Cor.5:10,, Rom.14:10, Mt.16:27, 1.Cor.3:11-15, 1.Pet.5:4, Rev.11:18, then the martyred saints under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11, (who are only resurrected at the end of the tribulation, together with the martyrs suffering throught the last half of the tribulation) must needs ALSO APPEAR before the judgment seat of Christ.
Here is the 64 million dollar question; Is there going to be TWO judgment seats of Christ (?), as these martyred saints are going to be about 7 years late, and cannot make it to the one propagated by the pre-tribbers.
Another text misused is 1.Thess 5:9, which declares that we are Not appointed to WRATH. And that is correct, if we understand that such WRATH spoken of, refers to the battle of Armageddon.
But see, here is the subtlety of modern theology. They suggest to the un-learned mind in their Bible schools, that the WHOLE seven year Tribulation is God’s WRATH, and begins with the opnening of the “first SEAL”
The problem is, that the un-learned mind accepts such falsehood on “face value” because a “learned theologian” said so. And then to compound the problem these “un-learned minds” come out of Bible college, repeating these same heresies, and the Christian populace begin to believe it, Rather than challenge it.
So, you say, how do you challenge that ? Simple, just research the text, in light of what they propagate. Be a good “Berean”, search the scriptures,and see if it be so, or not.
If , as they say, the “first Seal” is the beginning of the pouring out of the WRATH of God, (which it is NOT) then it stands to reason, that every subsequent “Seal” must be a continuation of the pouring out of the WRATH of God. Right ?
So what do we do with the “FIFTH SEAL” ? As the opening the Fifth SEAL results in the MARTYRDOM of the Saints of God. (in total violation of 1.Thess.5:9)
See the problem ? Obviously their theory claiming the seven year tribulation to be the WRATH of God, is absolutely incorrect !
Another problem is Paul’s admonishing to the Thessalonians in 2.Thess.2:1-3, wherein he makes it clear that the “coming of the Lord” and “our gathering unto Him” (a two part, singular event) would be preceeded by the apostassy, and the “revealing” of the “Man of sin”, the antichrist.
That passage says specifically that those two events must come “First”, before Christ’s coming and our “Gathering unto him”.
So how is it possible in the light of this fact, to even considder a pre-trib event of resurrection of All the Church ?
Another issue overlooked, and misunderstood by pre-tribbers, is the fact that 1.Thess.5:9 refers to the battle of Armageddon,(which is the Wrath of God, as well as the “sudden destruction” spoken of in verses 1-3) and the fact that the “brethren” are referred to as being here on Earth (in verse 4) right up until just before that same destruction (the Battle of Armageddon) at which point the “brethren” escape this Wrath, because “that day” (the battle of Armageddon) “shall not overtake them “as a thief” because they are the “children of light” and not of darkness.
I can go on and on, and give refutation after refutation, but of more importance, you all need to hear the biblical doctrine of the first resurrection, and it’s seven different and distinct orders.
So, rather than take up more space, get a copy of my book, it is irrefutable !!! That’s why the rapture guru’s are avoiding me.
Morgan Sorensen
I agree with you. I have other posts on this site which come to the same conclusion. I do not see the saints going anywhere until the 7th seal. Jesus said we would have tribulation in Matthew 24, and he would come back for us after that tribulation, not before.
Whew! LOL, I will not try to dispute any of the above, but will just suggest Mr. Sorensen read the whole thread Marianne recently put on “Have you ever done anything really stupid?” In my posts there, I assume the reader will know that there will be saints after the pretrib rapture, new coverts and people who were not ready for His coming for the Bride.
Let it be known I have no leader i follow, save Jesus. If you might wonder why, my book is listed here on this site, a free download under, “WALKING WITH GOD, Through the Fire.” DavWms
David, If you get my book and read it, you will be convinced of a complete different set of circumstance concerning the first resurrection, than what you presently understand or hold to.
All four theories, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath, are individually wrong, simply because the scriptures do not teach a singular taking away. This is what the apostle Paul alludes to in 1.Cor.15:23, when he states that in Christ, “All shall be made alive, But every Man in his OWN ORDER ”
The scriptures teach seven different orders of the “first resurrection”, which includes; Christ as the “first of the firstfruits”, the three “firstfruit” orders, the first of the harvest (the Innumerable company), the main harvest, and the martyrs.
You may disagree all you want, but you cannot get past the facts of God’s Word. The passage I quoted in 2.Thess.2:1-3 on its own, floors the pre-trib theory, as it makes it clear that the apostassy and the revealing of the man of Sin,(the Antichrist) pre-cedes the “coming of the Lord and OUR GATHERING unto him”
Also the Greek text of 1.Thess.4:15 and 17, that says; “We the Living, the ones SURVIVING” proves a time-line only compatible with the latter half of the seven year tribulation
What I have posted here, is just the “teasers”, to get you all to think, and that is even enough to discredit the pre-trib rapture fraud. What do you suppose happens when I pull out the “Big Guns” ?
David, I would like to ask you a question about Jn.6:39, when he declares that “All that He(the Father) has given me, I should lose None, but should raise it up on the LAST DAY” (the word “All” means every one,none excluded) (“Gr. Pas”) as well as,
Jn.6:40, Every one that believeth on Christ, Christ will raise up on the LAST DAY. as well as,
Jn.6:44 No one comes to Christ unless God draws him, and He,(Christ) will raise him up on the LAST DAY.
What do you suppose the words “Last day” means ?
By the way, I thought I read some of your posts at the beginning, in which you spoke against the pre-trib Rapture ?
Or am I mistaken in this ?
Morgan Sorensen
Hi, Morgan…. I’ve posted several places in the past. I said I was still on the fence, but leaning toward pre-trib if I fell off the fence. Be assured I have been around a loooong time, and have heard the arguments you make MANY times over. What tipped me off the fence is coming to know that Christians and Jews have different destinies, and I find that many who argue from your view cannot let that sink in to see this opens up a new can of worms. It means some messages re; the rapture/wrath/trib/etc; are meant for particular sets of people, not all for all. DavWms
Dave, I am a missionary/Bible prophecy teacher, and in ministry for over 44 years now. That means I have also been around this issue, a loooong time. I have been where you are.
Believe me, when I say, that there is not a pre-trib theologian around, that can defeat the biblical doctrine on the seven orders of the resurrection, as I put forth in my book.
If for example I could have a public debate with Perry Stone, (whom you seem to endorse) I would “pin him to the wall”, so to speak, with the word of God.
Now to your statement that the Jews have a separate and different destiny, than gentile Christians. That is the Lie that is the false foundation that you are building on.
If you will look up Isa 28:9-19, you will learn that God promised to do a “new thing”, that would bring all people into “his rest”. Yet Israel would not listen , and under the antichrist, will have made a covenant with death and Hell, yet God says that such and agreement will not stand, and they (the unbelieving Israel) shall be destroyed (trodden down) whereas the believing (In Christ) Israel, will flee to Petra (Isa.16:4 KJV) and be safe.
Considder the following; God said in Deut.18:15,and again in verse 18, That He (God) would raise up a prophet , like unto Moses, from among Moses’s brethren, Him they should hear.
In Acts 3:19-26, you find Peter confirming this passage in Deut.18 to the Jews, and particularly in verses 22,23 you will find that it declares that if the Jews do not “hear Christ”, they will be “destroyed from among the people” (wiped out)
In Christ there is “no Jew nor Greek,free or bond, rich or poor”.
There is only one DOOR, Jesus Christ, and the Jews, since about 2000 years ago, must enter the same door, as we gentiles do.
The false “dual destiny” message propagated by such false teachers as John Hagee, and Perry Stone, does NOT fit the biblical facts, and their “twisting” the scriptures to prove their false assumptions, I am well qualified to refute.
Now, if you choose to believe such lies, it’s up to you, I cannot force you to “see” the truth.
(David, You would really benefit by reading my book, click on my name in the box below, and read some “excerpts” on my website)
Morgan Sorensen
David, I forgot to add, You never answered my questions about “the LAST DAY” , (as per Jn.6:39,40,44, etc.) in the previous post. How about it ?
Morgan Sorensen
David, scroll up to your post of Aug.18,’08, as I left you a coment right below that post.
Morgan Sorensen
Morgan, I scrolled up to the Aug. 18 post as you suggested, and see that you have me confused with another “David.” I did NOT say I am a post trib. believer. In that area of posts, I noted that we had at least 3 Davids posting on the subject, and how confusing this could be to readers. Also note there are 2 of us with the same last name in that group of postings.
I also mentioned I will not get into an argument over any subject, and certainly not a heated one as it seems it has become to you. Nor will I be led off on another rabbit trail such as the meaning of Last Day. I have stated my opinions, and you have said your part.
I have also stated I follow no man, therefore I do not follow Perry Stone or any other man. But I listen to all, because God gives part of the truth to one, and part to another. It is up to me what I take from them, and I do NOT take all that P. Stone says as truth.
You say I would benefit from your book. Let me reply this way: Jesus assessed all He came in contact with, but did not apply penalty on them, as adding the latter would have been judging them, which He did not come to do, (yet.) Likewise, I assess all I come into contact with, and so do you. So far, my assessment of you makes me glad i am not in the same room with you.
You are forceful, and demanding others agree with you. And like the Pharisees, (most of whom also had 44 years of ministry under their belts) you see only the points you want to, and dismiss the points of others. Like I said, I have heard your argument many times over, and likely have been in the Word as much as you. But after my assessment of you, (not judging) I care not to read your book, thank you. DavWms
PS, Morgan, I have not heard that “dual destiny” talk from either P. Stone or Hagee. Never! But Les Feldick has been showing this in his TV teachings and it makes Scriptural sense to me. It answers a lot of questions about when the Bible messages were for Jews, or for gentiles. Now, know I know that some Jews have converted to follow Jesus, and they then are grouped with the messages to gentiles. I believe the “Bride” comes from this group. But the Jews will still be in human bodies, to live out the earthly millenium prophesies given us. I do not know waht becomes of them after the millenium.
Les Feldick is a country farmer whom God has had teaching small Bible studies for years. Fortunately, many were video taped and have now been put on TV for all of us to see. He does not force his opinions on anyone, nor does he ask for money. There is sometimes a “thank you,” to those who do send money for the costs of TV producing. DavWms
PPS to Morgan… I apologize for my accusation of you being forceful and demanding others agree with you. All day since I posted that, it has bothered me, perhaps conviction of the Holy Spirit. I went back and reread your posts and find I misread your intent. I ask your forgiveness. DavWms
Hi David, it is the evening of April the 1st. (no this is not an April fool’s prank) I just tonight got to read your apology above, and off course, I forgive you my friend. Apology accepted. My post below, was posted when I discovered that I had mistaken you for some one else.
Regards,
Morgan Sorensen
David, I am sorry I mistook you for another David,(whom I did not even know existed on this forum) so forgive me for that. I shall only respond to your last paraggraph of the first of the above two responses by you, and then let you go.
I do not demand that others agree with me, though I might be forcefull, as anyone with the Truth should be.
And No, and an absolute NO, you have NEVER heard what I teach EVER, as I have not yet gone public with this teaching, and there is NO ONE else in the World, that teaches the “seven orders of the first resurrection”.
All of modern theology stands condemned for only teaching a singular “Rapture”, whether that be pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath, That is exactly my point.
You have NEVER heard anything like this before. However, I shall respect your choice, and not “get in the same room with you”, but I do not know how that will affect you in the future, as I plan on entering the Kingdom, and if you have the same plans, you might have to change your attitude, or you might be denied entrance by the Lord.
Morgan Sorensen
looks like we have a couple of very passionate guys here.
Morgan, I assume that was accepting my apology, I thank you for that. And I fully understand how easy it was to mistake the “David” names, and forgive you for that. I want nothing between me and a brother in Christ. Perhaps you and I have more in common than we thought. I’ve also written a book that few will accept. It is outside what the mainstream Christianity wants to even think about.
My ministry has been in deliverance of demons, and the book shows Biblically that demons are in Christians. And much more. My book is freely available on this site in the right hand column under, “WALKING WITH GOD, Through the Fire” on the main page. Thanks to Marianne for making it available.
BTW, I did try clicking on your name to go to your site and peruse. Nothing happened. I’ll try Googling your name next.
Thank you for your gentlemanly reply. DavWms
Hi David
This is morgan’s site
http://morgansorensen.com/
BTW….being outside of mainstream Christianity is not so bad!
blessings
marianne
Thanks David, and again, I apologize for the mistake. Yes, you might be right, we might have a lot more in common, and should, since we both profess to follow the same Lord !
Hope you get throug to my site, you will notice under the short “Bio page” that my parents had one of the last real “Signs and Wonders” ministries in South Africa.(Tri-une pentecostal)
We had large crusades with many of the “men of God” of the 50’s and early 60’s.
Thank you Marianne, for your cordial mediating , and for postin my webpage. You are a peach. Would you considder making my book available on your site ? If so, let me know, and I will send you a complimentary copy to evaluate, and after you have read it, you can let me know your descission. Fair enough ?
Morgan Sorensen
Hi Morgan,
I can post your website, and refer people to it, but the WordPress policies do not allow me to have anything for sale on my site. I can just refer people to your site, and then they can do what they wish. If you had a free preview of it, or an excerpt, I can post that.
blessings
marianne
There is nothing new under the sun. The Bible says that no scripture is of private interpretation; there are no new revelations as such. What might strike someone as new has already been revealed to another. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established. As such and combined with what I WILL say is forceful and assailing approaches, I’m forced to disregard your comments, Mr. Sorenson. That “no one else in the world” teaches what you’re teaching is troubling at best and dangerous at worst. If you are the first and only to have it right, what of the myriads who’ve come and gone before your time? Would God have let them be ignorant of so “great” a truth? The basic tenets of Christianity (inherent holiness of God, sinfulness of man, retributive justice of God, incarnation, virgin birth, death burial and resurrection, indwelling of the Spirit and its present work in this age, the soon coming of the Lord and punishment of wicked earth, millenial reign and final judgement then eternity) have been agreed upon after having been debated and prayed about. But these principles were not made true by the input of man but by the decree of God. The pre- tribulation rapture idea has stood the test of time because of the truth in it. Our Lord spoke of it. The passage of its teaching was abrogated during a very dark period in humanity but not lost to the ages. Though there be lazy Bible students ready to cast aspersion upon it on the basis of regurgitating what they heard someone who heard someone say something about Darby and some witch in a trance say about it, its truth remains, salient and unobstructed. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating, the resistance to the pretribulation rapture isnt from a lack of proof, its from a lack of morality. God has distinguished himself from all other gods because he alone is moral; morally perfect. What does one lose for believing in a pre- trib rapture? Nothing. If one truly believes it is imminent, one will live a holy life. If we are wrong in believing in a pre-trib rapture, there is NO LOSS; the same holy life that would prepare an individual for a sudden, thief in the night occurence, will harden and undergird that man or woman for horrendous tribulation or wrath. But what of the other viewpoints? What if you dont believe the Lord can come at any moment; that you will see the antichrist revealed and see coming calamity and then prepare yourself. What happens if you live in that fashion and there IS a pre-tribulation rapture? Simply put, you wont be saved. If you cannot be saved in THESE times, you WILL NOT be saved in those. Period. We can go back and forth all day, but all that we must walk away from these discussions with is “live holy, Jesus is coming soon”. Do that and you’ll have no worries, irrespective of who’s right or wrong. The tragedy of when discussions come to this, when someone as friendly and honest as David is, is assailed by a bully trying to sell a book (dont forget, Joseph Smith, Muhammed and Charles Russell of the watchtower society also had new ideas that no one had ever heard of) is that we lose sight of the purpose of such discussions, to reinforce what we know and learn what we dont so we can in turn be better witnesses and saints. When we devour one another no one is edified. With all due respect sir, I dont care how long your ministy’s been if you cant relate with love and humility. Could it be that these “wont” debate with you because theyve never heard of you, or perhaps you approached them with the same abruptness as you’ve approached some in here? The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword. I dont have to be coarse or brash in delivering it. Intense? Yes, the times demand it. Unapologetic? To be expected, it is the truth, after all. “I’m right and I’ll name all the people who are wrong and who are afraid of challenging me on it”? By no means, brother. Maranatha.
Well said, Armado. I always watch for your inputs. As I read, I was wondering what or if I should reply. Early on, I decided i would merely enter, “Maranatha.” But LOL, you beat me to it.
Maranatha. DavWms
David, We’ve had our own share of disagreements, but at the end of the day its about the kingdom and being ready for his coming, whenever it is. I always appreciate your insight and the opportunity to discuss the word. Maranatha! I’m ready!
Armado, I was dying of a stroke about 3 weeks ago. Many began prayers for me to recover. I was out of the hospital short of 3 days, and while taking blood pressure meds, I was given permission to go back to anything I had been doing before the stroke.
So while it is a good testimony to God answering prayer, it also proved to me the verse, “Oh death! Where is thy sting?” I had less than zero fear of death during the episode. Maranatha! DavWms
“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” Revelation 12:10-12 Praise God for your testimony and his strength being made perfect in your weakness. I shall keep you in my prayers.
I know I should not way into this debate, but, the harm that could come from following a false doctrine, could far outweigh simpy believing something that has no definitive scriptual basis.
I should have started with saying that my knowledge of scripture is meager in comparison to others. Probably all others, but even though that is the case, there still is no basis for thinking that we, as the Elect, will be removed prior to everything that is getting ready to happen.
If you look at the persecutions of the Saints all through history, they didn’t simply live through hard times for the Lord’s sake, They were killed, tortured, etc, etc…
The wrath that is coming will affect all of those who manage to escape the beheadings, the natural catastrophes(even though we know they are not actualy natural, but part of God’s plan) except those of us( and it will not be many) that manage to hide out in caves, forests, etc.
The nuclear holocost alone will diminish the population so drastically that, well, you understand. To say that we will be spared so much of this is exactly what the evil one would like you to believe.
A false sense of hope that we will avoid this is what will cause so many to grow cold in faith and be deceived. It is going to be terrible.
I know there may be better places for some of these issues I wish to bring up, but even though I did not read every single word over the past few months, I have some real concerns.
I do want to come across as confrontational, I will be the first person in saying, if you can prove what you are saying, scriptually, Amen.
Unfortunately, it is unlikely in this case. I know that some will say that I have already closed my mind to discussion, but that is not the case. I simply know as anyone who really is studying the Bible, the Bible Interprets the Bible!!!!
The people that try and justify the rapture(pre-tri, post-trib or whatever), are simply wanting with all their hearts to believe something that is not spelled out the way they want to see it.
Look up Eisegesis, pls.
But to add a couple of minor points that obviously contradict the rapture is that when the word says “woa to those with little ones and those pregnant or nursing” would indicate that God has allowed the most innocent among us to miss the rapture.
I mean come on, the age that a child become accountable is not exactly clear to me yet, but it does mean that every single child on the planet, including those in the womb will disappear.
Therefore, you then are disputing scripture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One last thing as this will give all plenty to chew on for awhile is where does the bible say there is a 2nd and then 3rd coming.
The deception and lies and misinformation has been going on for centuries. Doublecheck everything you think you know, that was not found in the Holy Bible with the Holy Ghost’s assistance. You have to even check what may have been told you by your closest friend or minister.
Trust the Bible as your primary or better yet, only sorce of info.
God Bless
Hi Michael,
Your views are welcome. Disagreement stimulates thought.
I agree that no one should muse over the rapture issue with a false sense of security. Jesus said we would go through tribulation.
This discussion has spread out to this other page as well:
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/noah-and-the-rapture/
I personally have gotten away from the word “tribulation” since it has a traditional meaning that I am not sure about, and have some thoughts. I divide the future into trouble (which includes persecution and beheadings) and wrath. But all that is on the other page.
Michael, if only you’d taken some time to read all my comments, you’d have noticed one concurrent thread, that I ALWAYS back what I say with the word. That said, if one of the buttresses of your argument is the unscriptural notion of the “age of accountability”, you’ve hardly a leg to stand on, my friend, and that a right shoddy one. I’m always amazed that some of the most gung ho critics of the rapture on the basis of the actual word not appearing in the ENGLISH bible are also some of the quickest to tout the age of accountability (aoa for the purposes of this comment). If we must be technical, read the whole book of Genesis, every word, you know what you wont find? The word “holy” or any of its variances. But none would be so daft to claim the idea of holiness isnt on every page. Also, the book of Esther has no use of the english words “God” or “Lord” nor their Hebrew equivalents. At all. So why include them in the Bible? I dont need to look up “eisegesis” because I know what it means. More than that, I know how to do it. One cannot understand the seeming absence of the concept of holiness in Genesis or the lack of mention of God in Esther without it. As far as “aoa” is concerned, the scripture is filled with examples of the slaying of babies and children at the command of God. From the deaths of the family of Achan in the book of Joshua till the myriad deaths in the outpouring of wrath in Revelation, babies, children, boys and girls die. Throw out flawed human, fleshly compassion- were talking about divine retribution against sin; sin that is present even in children, even in a newborn baby. The Lord himself said that he will have mercy upon whom he’ll have mercy and compassion on whom hell have compassion. This does not mean flat out that all children of “a certain age” will be saved. It is an uncomfortable thought, indeed. I have 4 children, one of which isnt even 2. She didnt have to be taught to say no when asked a question she doesnt want to answer. She didnt have to be taught to hit her older brother if he does something she doesnt like. She didnt have to be taught to not come when told to come. It is because for as adorable as she is she was molded and shapen in iniquity. If the Lord should come today, but for his aforementioned mercy and compassion, she will be left. It is ignorant and devoid of scriptural understanding of election to assert that because shes a baby she would be taken. God does not judge because someone isnt cute and cuddly or because theyve passed the age of accountability, he judges for sin. The idea of an “aoa” is also quite inconsistent in itself. How can God look past sin because someone is young? NO my friend, he looks past sin because that person is covered by the blood of his son. That blood can only be applied by a conscious, willing repentance and indwelling of his spirit. Or else the catholics are right to baptize babies. Thats heresy. Many of the ways of God are uncomfortable to man and it isnt because God is unjust. The judge of all the earth will do right; his ways are uncomfortable because man is imperfect. Take another read of your Bible, then read it again. Those who are with child for whom there is a “woe” are not the church, they are the Jews who will later come to an understanding of their failure to recognize Messiah, then repent, then be saved by his sacrifice on Calvary. Those on earth during the tribulation, going through the wrath are not the church; they are those who for whatever reason were not saved prior to the rapture. They are those who will be presented with a choice of taking the mark or believing in Christ and dying. Different dispensation entirely. The church is in heaven during this period (Revelation 4 talks of 24 elders- these are the redeemed; the dead in Christ who rose and those alive remaining NOT during the tribulation, but remaining on the earth who are caught up) Further, Revelation 7 talks about a great number who had gone through great tribulation; thats LIFE the Bible is talking about[ heartache, temptation, bad economy, stress, bereavement, sadness, etc] not THE GREAT TRIBULATION which will not occur until the man of sin stands in the temple and declares himself to be God.) Also if the church is not raptured, who are the Saints who return with the Lord in Revelation 19 on white horses? To claim a post trib rapture is flimsy theology. To deny a rapture at all is just simply reckless. Come on now, it’s 2009, we have more resources available to us than any other generation. Do a word study for yourself; look up the word Paul uses for “caught up” – Harpazo, which in the first Latin Bible was translated “Rapture”. Unfortunately in these types of discussions, there has been very little original scholaryly work done. There just arent that many good Bereans anymore. It saddens me, whether my view is correct or not, that so much of what I’ve seen is what people have garnered from someone elses research or teaching. I’ve read everything I can find, from both viewpoints, then done my own research and the simple fact is the only point I come to is that there WILL BE a rapture. And soon. Let’s just all make sure were ready. Maranatha.
One more thing (sorry, lol), if a person is genuinely saved and has the Spirit of God indwelling them, enduring tribulation, Great Tribulation, wrath or anything is absolutely doable. I know that the majority of the discussion on this matter is not because we want to cow one another down or beat one another over the head with who is right or wrong – it’s because those who believe one way care about the fate of those who believe another. If there is no rapture, if I and others are wrong, then the same desire to share beliefs or persuade towards a viewpoint will translate into helping one another endure and be strong until he comes, even in the face of death. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
I assure you, no one that believes the Lord will come at any moment walks around in fear and wanting just to avoid the fray. The same Spirit that created all things indwells us and we’ll be victorious, come rapture or waiting. Maranatha
I am trying, through all this discussion, to decide whether to go to Home Depot, and buy some lumber to build a boat.
Amardo.
I always want to start by saying that text can so easily be misinterpreted because of the lack of the human factor, so what I am trying to say is that I do not and have no desire to inflame you or anyone else.
I didn’t say I didn’t read any of your stuff. I said, or at least I meant to say, the folks that want so desparately to believe in some kind of rapture always take scripture out of context. As I suggested when asking you look up eisegesis, I would have hoped you actually looked it up, or perhaps you thought I meant exegesis. Obviously you have the two meanings confused with each other. I will help, and yes, I know neither of these words appear in scripture, they still have meaning.
Eisegesis (from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among) is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one’s own ideas, reading into the text
Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι ‘to lead out’) is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text
I can’t pretend to demonstrate a superior knowledge of scripture, but let me try and address some of you arguements one by one as I am at work and even though, I occasionally have some down time, I can’t stop and research my Bible properly.
I will jump ahead of myself and go right to how I am disappointed that you, as all others trying to use that lame excuse because it is mentioned in some latin bible which of course is associated with satan’s church, that it has some distinct meaning. It did not come out of the original hebrew, aramaic or greek transcripts. At least I don’t believe so. If you can demonstrate otherwise, I will stand corrected. But nothing out of any bible associated with satan’s church will sway me.
As for “the” tribulation as being much like every other aspect of a difficult life, that is why it is described as being more terrible than anything in the past or ever will be again. Hmmmm
I am not sure I ecen know what a berean is. Perhaps you can expand on that?
Many, many, many of the events in the Revelation of Jesus Christ happen in time frames we can not possibly understand. Some things take years to play out. Others will happen almost at the same times or will interplay with other events.
As far your aoa, babies, small children, etc killed in the past were during wars, some initiated by God, some not. What I was inferring(and I will go on a limb here, because I will have to try and find it again, I thought I found the aoa to be around 14 as this is the age, with which a child can make a conscious, intelligent decision either way about following Chris or not. I was not talking about inherited sin.
As you know, bad sin is knowingly disregading God’s Laws. Everyone, who does not get the chance to make a concious decision, will be given that time to make the decision. I.E. aborted babies, children kiled early in life.
I was just going off the assumption I have gotten from so many different folks all over who infer that the rapture is real. And your right, children are not automatically saved, they will have to grow up at a later time and make this decision for themselves.
I am trying to cover more than I initially meant to, but one last thing. If I remember correctly, Only, Jesus has deserved the right to enter Heaven. No one else, not moses, elijah, no one else has earned the right. As far as the 24 Elders, I don’t know where you get that the are somehow redeemed. They have always been up there worshiping God…
Enough for now
Look forward to your responses
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Amardo
After more thought and realizing that even in the days of Noah, Children were not spared, I will have to do additional study on this subject, not so I can prove someone wrong, but so I can have a deeper understanding..
Please be patient, I have so much to learn and so little time in which to learn.
Michael
The children of the wicked were not spared, as they were raised to be wicked. The children of the righteous were all spared.
Michael, I humbly suggest you go to the other site where this same subject is being discussed. Marianne put the link above. That way, responders won’t have to rewrite their posts in each. DavWms
Marianne,
Yes, I see your point. Without trying to start an entirely different discussion, my only initial point was that children cannot make a proper decision. They only learn what they are taught. Which is why the whole islam/muslem this is so sad.
See ya in the other thread..
Michael,
) One thing I did say in an earlier post, is that though we have the Bible, and we in this end time generation have an understanding of the scripture that was withheld from Daniel and others, some things will be unknowable until they actually play out. I’ve seen the most renowned Bible scholars modify their view on scriptures and I’ve heard the most humble farmer bring new clarity to the most trying of passages. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Maranatha
Thanks for the speedy reply. Trust me, friend, you wont inflame or upset me. These are, after all, just words. I can tell, however, that you’re used to speaking about scripture to less educated people. Or perhaps those less inclined to look into what you’re saying. You didnt have to say you hadnt ready any of my postings, it was obvious by your comments. And please, dont “help” me understand something you may not understand yourself. I smell a wikipedia copying here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis beware wikipedia, you stand the risk of introducing erroneous information into your discussion (ANYONE can write those definitions, you know). Eisegesis at its most basic can be understood as anthropomorphism, another word I dont have to look up, it’s the way we finite beings grasp the intangible, specifically deity, ala Job “hast thou an arm like God?” While Exegesis will tell us that the story of Esther is important because it records the preservation of the Jews, Eisegesis explains on a subjective level why the inclusion of this story and not say, the Maccabean revolt is more valuable to the scripture. I wouldnt call my knowledge of scripture to be superior, but I know enough to be an apologist for what I believe and to be a Berean (Acts 17:10-12 (And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.) Its odd that you’d look up eisegesis for me, but not Berean for yourself, thats very unBerean of you. As far as the Latin Vulgate being used by the Church of Satan, I really dont care. Thats truly a moot point and rather spurious on your part. All sorts of pagan religious groups and cults use our contemporary Bible. Does that mean we shouldnt use it because the Branch Davidians used it a decade ago? As to you going out on a limb to find a scripture that supports the age of accountability being 14, I can tell you now that limb was never on any Biblical tree and has since fallen off whatever plant it used to be on. Even if the Bible did suggest 14 as an age of accountability, it would have to make dispensation for 14 year olds who are more or less advanced than the rest of their peers. And yes, people are judged for original sin. Doesnt matter whether you die in the womb or live to be 100, sin is sin. The age of accountability is the age at which a person can know and understand that they are sinners and are in need of forgiveness. Do you know any 14 year olds? I find it hard to believe that someone who can program a laptop or create a blog about the 8th grade isnt deft enough to know that it is an offense to God to steal. SMH. Paul makes reference to being alive without or outside the law in Romans. This coddled together with a misunderstanding of the story of David and Bathsheba is what people use to try and support an “aoa” theology. But like I stated earlier, it’s inconsistent with scripture in particular the doctrine of election. If all babies and children will be saved, what then is the purpose of God electing people for salvation? The simple fact is some children and babies will be lost. Not because they are age 14 and one day, not because God is unjust, but because there is none righteous, no not one. I’m going to disregard your comments about Greek and original language. There are far too many websites were you can paste an English passage and get the original Greek where you can see for yourself for me to have to redress it. Lemme pause here for a moment, my aim is not to attack your input or logic or anything like that. My only intent in this regard is to make sure that we spproach our different beliefs from the same point of origin, even if we arrive at wholly different results. Regarding the 24 elders: John has been caught up in the Spirit and is seeing future events. So they are redeemed. Scripturally, no people (the elders arent angels (angelos) of any sort, nor are they living creatures (zooas). The word elder is the same word one would use for an old human. John said in his last epistle that no man has seen God at any time. If these men had always been in heaven, their presence would have contradicted what John had written. (prior to the writing of Revelation, I might add). So who are they? This is where exegesis comes in; in the tabernacle and the temple, priestly duties was divided between 24 priests (one per hour we can assume). This would ensure that fatigue would never set in and the sacraments of the tabernacle/temple were never neglected. Candles had to be trimmed, bread had to be baked and replaced, etc. Their number also represented a full day, signifying a God who never slumbered but was perpetually at work. Many well respected scholars assert further that 12 of the elders represent the redeemed before the New covenant (Noah, Abraham, David, etc) and 12 for those redeemed after it (You, myself, David, Marianne, etc
Amardo,
Wow!
I did go back and read your posts again and you are right, there is a recurrent theme!
You turn every discussion into something else in some vain attempt at proving to everyone how intellegent and correct you are.
Saying the sky is polka dotted over and over and with lots of side assumptions and telling everyone how wrong, incorrect they are and worse, does not make your case.
You take scripture out of context and make assumptions that simply don’t make any sense.
The word Eisegesis means : the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas — compare exegesis
Took this out of Merriam-Webster so you would feel better about it. Even though it’s meaning is clear, It says that is the word to describe when people read their own understanding into whatever they are trying to study. specifically scripture in this case. i.e. wishes, desires, perhaps hopes.
I hope all goes well for you. If you are sincere and not just trying to cause strife where ever you go, I wish you well. If not, I hope, I pray, you find God soon. Some knowledge of scripture is not enough alone.
Again, I apologize even though I probably provoked you, it is clear this is how you demonstrate your personality in all of your posts.
Sincerely, May God be with you..
I had to add this even though I have no desire to keep this dialogue going.
If you have a better than average knowledge of scripture, use it to help people. Provoking them with demeaning language, does not make you superior or demonstrat that you are a Child of God.
Remember, Humble is as Humble does
Peace
OK everyone……
Everyone can disagree, and use scripture for appropriate backing….
but everyone treat the others with kindness
thanks.
Helping someone, anyone, is kind.
Now it looks like I am provoking you, but I’m not.
Same as with dating, you get more bees with honey, not vinegar.
Hi Michael
You are not provoking me. I was concerned because you felt provoked and demeaned. I do not want that here.
The note was a general one for anyone on the page. Notice, I did not address it specifically to you.
Michael, Armado needs no one to help defend him. Yet it sometimes helps if another chimes in when we see a pot calling the kettle black. You talk of being humble. I merely ask you to show it, more than talking it. You assumed you know things that Armado does not. Then when he showed he did know much, you turned to name calling by the inference of your words. As you said, humble is as humble does.
None of us is trying to chase you away…far from it. We welcome input from dif. sources, as we are all seeking truth here. Almost all, that is. (Note Zarath.) But when others do and say things that you do not agree with, you infer they do not know as much as you, and that we should listen to you, instead. That happens on both sides of the issues all too often. This, rather than sticking to the Biblical facts. Let’s let love and patience prevail, just as Marianne’s honey asks. DavWms
DAvid, Amardo, and Michael
I do not think anyone here has a monopoly on humility. I see 3 men with strong opinions, and they all have scriptural reasons why they think that way.
I would suggest focusing on the content, rather than perceived behavior, since perception is subjective.
Only Jesus has it 100% perfect.
The rest of us are trying, except, of course for my “honey” ( Mr Z).
blessings
marianne
God bless all of you
I don’t feel the need to comment any further on what has already been discussed. As with ANY forum, someone who shows up late to the discussion would do well to get some background. As David said yesterday, some of the tangental points have been or are being discussed elsewhere. Anyone here is free to disagree. I’m not certain I’d want to post on a forum where everyone thought the same way I do.
I will, however, defend the integrity of my posts. Any objective person can see that I always preface opinion or conjecture with “I believe” or some such phrase. I present scripture and anyone who reads the verse may read for themselves. The Bible does tell us, after all, to search the scripture. I want to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering, being made comformable unto his death. I dont attempt to interpret scripture where it is clear (if it’s raining outside and you walk in wet, I would foolish NOT to concur you’d gotten wet in the rain and not that you’d just been swimming). Some things are simply obvious. I enjoy this forum and all the participants lend something to it. I love all of you and shall continue to appreciate everyone’s input.
Duly noted, Marianne. #;oX
Now, where were we? DavWms
hi david,
where we are in discussion, that is debatable. Maybe the rapture discussion could continue on the noah page. Poor Z is lonely over there. He just has “me.”
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/noah-and-the-rapture/
blessings
marianne
Amardo, I take note from Michael’s response to you, that you seem to be the “bully”. My questioning David,was a “mistaken identity” situation, as I did not know there were several David’s, and anyway that was “cleared up” by his response, and I apologized for mistaking him for someone else.
However, I am respondig to your post, that mentions my Name.
You say you are “forced to disregard” my comment that no one else in the World teaches what I teach.
It seems to me that you are ignorant of the fact, that the teaching presented in my book, “None Dare Call It Deception”, is my intellectual property, and since I have not yet shared it with Christianity at large, It is impossible for any one anywhere in the World, to have access to this information. Enough said about that !
What I want to discuss or bring to your attention, is your false claim that the “Pre-trib Rapture idea has stood the test of time”, because as you say “it is true”. This statement is absolutely preposterous ! You might as well stand on a soap box, and say the same about evolution, as it carries as much “credibility” as does the the pre-trib rapture fraud.
Until 1824-26, when Margaret MacDonald/Irving/Darby et. al. concocted this fraud (around the ‘firstfruit’ order of the 24 “Elders”) the greater Church around the World had never heard about it, nor ever believed such un-biblical fraud.
If you read some of the early “church fathers”, you will not find any consensus with such a theory, as they all were persuaded of a “post tribulational” return of Christ.
Even the Thessalonians were persuaded by Paul in 1.Thess.5:1-5 that THAT DAY (the day of the Lord) the “Battle of armageddon”, would come “as a thief” upon “the wicked”, yet Paul made it clear that “the Brethren” were NOT the “children of darkness”, that THAT DAY (the day of the Lord) would “overtake them’, because they were “the children of light”.
This posits that the “Brethren” must needs be here on Earth right up until that day, but do escape “the Day of the Lord” (Armageddon) because they are “not appointed unto Wrath”. 1.Thess.5:9
The most used passage presented by the “Rapture Guru’s”, as their proof text for the pre-trib rapture, is 1.Thess.4:13-20.
If you will look up the Greek/English interlinear text on google, by title; “scripture4all.org” and specifically reference verses 15 and 17, you will discover that in the Greek these two verses have a “timeline”, which is Not reflected in the English.
The Greek says; “we the living, the Ones SURVIVING “.
Jesus, when asked in Mt.24, “What is the sign of your coming, and the end of the World”, said first, “be not deceived”. Then He went on to predict perilous times, and then He said “when you see the “abomination that maketh desolate stand in the Holy place”, and He refered to the prophet Daniel, only after this, does Jesus warn that there would be tribulation as never has been before.
This refers to the last three and one half years, in which those who refuse the “mark of the beast” will not be allowed to “buy or sell”. This will be a literal time of “survival”, and it is this time-line that is reflected in the Greek text,in 1.Thess.4:15,17 (by itself, totally refuting the pre-trib rapture)
You say, “What does one have to lose in believing in the pre-trib rapture ?” Truth is, because the pre-trib Rapture theory fosters an “escape mentality”, you lose your preparedness and preparation, economically as well as mentally and spiritually, for the “trial” that you will be forced to “endure”.(1.Pet.1:5,7,13, 1.Pet.4:12,13.
Next, you speak of “Imminence” as if it is a biblical concept. Well, I’ve got news for you, it is NOT a biblical concept.
Imminence, by definition means, that nothing else can happen in conjunction with, or related to an imminent event, or else imminence is destroyed. Even Dr. Renald Showers, with his fraudulent theology, agrees that such is the definition of imminenece.
Problem is, 2.Thess.2:1-3 destroyes imminence, as the “coming of our Lord, and our gathering unto him”, (the resurrection) is “preceeded” by the “apostassy” and the “revealing of the MAN of Sin”(the antichrist) Notice that it says except there come a falling away ‘first’, AND the Man of sin be revealed” These two things must precede, “The comming of our Lord and our gathering unto Him”.
I can go on and on, giving you biblical proof, but I guess you would only “be forced to disregard” such evidence, so let me close with a quote from Albert Einstein, quote; “Great spirits, have always encountered violent opposition, from mediocre minds”.
Think about it !
Morgan Sorensen
P.S. Amardo, you ought to get a copy of my book, or at least visit my website, and read some excerpts. (just point your cursor at the name below, and clik it)
Hi Marianne,
Wow this is the first time I read this. I love what you said to David in your second letter from the top!
The Strait and narrow way is only found by stepping back and letting Him lead the way that He must travel with you.
And then taking His hand so you fall not and holding on.
The prayer closet is a good place to be. Close to Him who loves you.
The fool is always known by his many words. He needs a lot of words to control.
Peter said to the Lord that he would follow Him to the cross and he did.
God knows the heart and if His Spirit dwells therein, then there is life there. His Life.
It is God that gives Life and sustains His gift.
I always find it hard to write about Him without finding myself at His Feet.
p.s. I got sidetracked. Back in February 2008, I heard The voice of The Lord asking me:
“What will they do in the Apocalypse ?”
I did not know the answer but I was surprise at the question and I still am.
I pondered this often and thought it strange for The Lord to ask this of me.
He then told me: “I have forty people alive in this country that I have reserved for myself.”
Forty, just forty in a country of ? million people.
My response was Lord I thought you had thousand and thousands.
About two months ago on a Sunday, my brother came to pay me a visit.
And we found ourselves speaking about the rapture.
I never speak much but rather listen and my brother asked me if I believed in the rapture. I told him that I wasn’t sure about the subject.
Later that evening I heard the voice of The Lord saying to me: “Why were you unsure?
Didn’t I tell you that I have forty people in this country?”
This is the first time that I share this.
Hi Abigail,
That is very odd about the number 40. I know more than 40 people who come to my site, and I would expect them to be in the rapture. Maybe:
1. we all get killed in terror attacks or the next war, and are not around for a rapture.
2. he has reserved 40 individuals to prepare people for the rapture, so that more than that are going.
3. many godly people will die before the rapture, of natural causes. I see this a lot now. Many of my age group (50’s) are dying early of cancer, etc.
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-baby-boomer-generation-is-dying-early/
4. we are all fooling ourselves, and we are going through the tribulation together, with the rapture occurring after the tribulation.
With God nothing is impossible.
Noteworthy is this date today.
On Thursday March 26, 2009 we found Aviv Barley in two fields in the Jordan
Valley, several kilometers south of Beth Shean. Samplings from these plots of
barley were between 70% and 90% Aviv or beyond. Much of the barley we found had
ripened past the stage of Aviv. Based on this there will definitely be
sufficient quantities of barley that will be harvest-ready in two weeks time.
Therefore, the upcoming new moon this Friday night will begin the Month of the
Aviv and the new biblical year.
Chag HaMatzot (the Feast of Unleavened Bread) will begin on April 10 at sunset and continue until April 17 at sunset.
Photographs of this year’s Aviv taken by CB Newman are posted at:
http://www.karaite-korner.org/aviv/2009/
ABigail
Chag Sameach!!
blessings
marianne
agree we need to let all here what we know but change some thing? Thats up to god I fill.
Gods has this country in his hands, But there is also Satan
Satan is also in gods plans he must be if he’s anti-Christ if he’s going to start to round up gods people give out marks kill people
I don’t believe in killing any one,but due believe in having guns to protect are self s.
I just pray we are taken before it gets to bad around here liked it in the country always thought good place to be. any more it grow upped
I just keep thinking how its going to be the running the hiding and praying for god to come if he waits awhile.
The people that you thought were your friends are the ones that will turn you in for a reword.
theres
1. that beleaves in the per-rapture
2. that beleaves in the mid-rapture
3. that beleaves in the post-rapture
I keep thinking about the mid to the post because god said to endure tell he comes.
to stand fast until he comes.
He also said two will be in a field working one will be taken one left
anther n thing that bothers me is anti-Christ Satan he wants and will act as god he try’s to walk in his steps just the same try’s to due the same things god can due he knows the bible as well he knows about the rapture of the people what will he due?
I always be leaved in the per but what if I am wrong and many souls are lost I keep praying on this.
Hi Flybird
I think Satan will try a fake rapture.
Hi flybird63,
I think you will benefit greatly if you get a hold to my book,”None Dare Call It Deception”. It will give you insights that will make you confident in the ‘waiting’ for Christ, without fear and being prepared.
As your ‘mental and spiritual’ preparation, is as important as your “physical and financial” preparation.
Just click on my name below, and my website will come up. You can order the book ‘online’, or just mail me your order, and don’t forget to include your mailing address.
Morgan Sorensen
Above, I mentioned I was still on the fence about the timing of the rapture, but leaning to pre-trib. LOL, I have bounced back and forth so many times on this, I am trying to make myself not take a solid stand on any timing. The reason for this follows, as I feel it is only right to present any new arguments, either way:
I recently was asked to look at Rev. 20:4-6, where there is a description of souls who had been beheaded because they refused the mark of the beast. This means they died during the Trib, I think. Then it mentions that they were the FIRST resurrection.
Suddenly, I remembered Paul’s words about when the dead shall rise first, then those still alive, etc; (resurrection and rapture) So, if the resurrection Paul speaks of is the same as in Rev 20, then it would be at least mid-trib, or possibly post-trib. After all, there can’t be TWO first resurrections, can there? DavWms
Hi David,
What I see is 3 1/2 years of “trouble” where both Israel and Christian believers suffer in this trouble. Then I see 3 1/2 years of wrath, which is only for the wicked, because the good ones are all gone. Jesus has come for all of them.
Somehow, people have taken Jacob’s trouble, which is 3 1/2 years only, according to various scriptures, and turned it into a 7 year “tribulation,” just because there is “one week” left, acc. to Daniel. SO then, using this 7 year period, rather than a 3 1/2 year one, it gets argued about the timing of the rapture.
the rapture is to rescue the true saints so they will not be harmed. The dead do not need rescuing.
I think
rapture- maybe beforehand
3 1/2 years tribulation or trouble
second coming/rapture + resurrection of dead
3 1/2 years wrath.
Just to make this more clear, or rather or interesting, the bride may go ahead in a rapture (church of Philadelphia) but the unrepentant church will continue on into the trouble period.
That’s essentially where my thinking is now too, Marianne. I sure hope the Bride is taken up pre, but am having a hard time seeing TWO first resurrections. Not that there has not already been another “first” resurrection. LOL. Remember Mat. 27:52, where many OT saints came out of their graves and were seen by many. DavWms
Hi David,
My main hoped for destination is heaven. I do not care how I get there – dead or alive – lifted up!
Hello David, long time
I think it’s quite telling that the first century church believed so fervently that the Lord would return in their lifetimes that they became distraught when some of their members began to die and he had not come, hence the letter of Paul to the Thessalonians to assuage those concerns. This is irrepressible proof of the idea of imminence. Also Our Lord said “Be ye therefore also ready for in such an hour ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.” I’m strictly pre-trib, but I think mid-trib viewpoints have alot of merit. Those who are post tribbers have yet to offer a scriptural view for their beliefs. Simply taking the stance “well, the church has endured so much through the ages, why do we think we’d be exempt?” is ignorant. Matthew 20:1-16 is a parable that details the various ages of the church. We are the eleventh hour workers. We won’t endure what the first century church endured because the Church Age will be over, no more work for us to do. I agree with Marianne on this one, however he chooses to put in his appearance, not only do I anticipate it, but I’m ready. Maranatha.
Amardo, glad to see you back. I always enjoy your posts. I have my question out to two pre-trib Bible scholars whom I respect, and one has answered. He says that pre-trib theologians have consistently taught that there are multiple phases to the “first” resurrection. pre, mid, and post millenium. He cites Ryrie’s note on John 5:29 as an example of stages of the first resurrection. (My Ryrie version has no note on that verse.) He also cites Dallas Theological Commentary to make the same point.
At first, I thot this was reaching a bit til I thot of what I had mentioned before. Mat. 27:52 tells us that many OT saints came out of their tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and were seen by many. We could have argued this was the first resurrection, thereby. But it does open the door to there being phased first resurrections, I think. In any case, I hope there is a soon catching up. Maranatha. DavWms
Hi David,
I thought I would add this to make it more confusing.!!!!
The puzzle continues…..it looks like here, the 1st resurrection does not occur until after the millennium.
David, while I’m usually VERY cautious with many study Bibles (too much input from the authors biases and sometimes downright contradictions between what the scripture says- Darby’s edition, for example, completely omits all mention of the words ‘damn’ and ‘damnation’ maybe in effort to be prurient but succeeds in only softening what the inspiration of the Holy Spirit meant to be forceful), I have read some very good things about Ryrie’s although I don’t own one. My Bible is a plain-jane no notes version with a small glossary in the back that I have dog-eared and tattered and used to make my own cross references (makes you work harder and helps you remember). That said, I think the idea of a phased resurrection has merit. Although by the time they’ve begun preaching, the rapture has already occured, we find the 144,000 who appear in the 7th chapter of Revelation, in Heaven in the 14th. They, like Enoch and Elijah, experienced a type of rapture- so I don’t see a phased resurrection as being contradictory in terms. The Bible has many other examples that were brought to my mind as I read your post, of phased occurences: David appears to have had the Holy Ghost before the day of Pentecost. Some say this was provisional and temporary but it’s interesting how his worship manifested itself. Why else would he pray “take not thy Holy Spirit from me” in psalms 51? John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost in the womb. Although not sinless and not virgin born, he was imbued with the power of the Most High to make him worthy to prepare the Lord’s path. Notice also that he said “he shall baptize YOU with the Holy Ghost and fire” no mention of himself. It could be that he knew he would die before Pentecost or simply that he already had it. Both his parents also had it. Consider also the theophanies, the appearance of the ‘Angel of the Lord’- the pre-incarnate Christ, throughout the Old Testament. What men saw then was what men saw walking the shores of Gallilee. Concerning resurrection, Lazarus was resurrected to life but not life eternal because he died again. In that sense he was different from the saints mentioned in Matthew. Notice, too, that their resurrection was after the Lord’s, he being the firstfruits from among the dead. It was, however, a foreshadowing of Christ’s own resurrection. From what I gather (and Dallas Theological was Ryrie’s School, so that may be a little bit biased
) the verse speaks of two different periods, yes, but for two different groups. Those who’ve done good I take to mean either the dead in Christ who rise in the rapture; the martyrs who rise triumphant and reign with Christ during the millenium or the Old testament Saints who live again during the millenium. Those who’ve done evil are either those who’s poor treatment of Israel prevents them from entering the millenium or ALL the evil dead at the Great White Throne.
Yes, Marianne. Those were the verses I quoted above that threw a wrench into my pre-trib thinking. I felt it was only fair to put out other thinking by those verses. My later words show I have now been opened to seeing the “first” resurrection does come in phases, not all at once. In any case, I find my self back on the fence, but leaning toward pre-trib for the Bride. DavWms
Meanwhile, back at the ranch….. sometimes as we talk about one thing re; the end times, we forget there are other events going on at the same time. And those possibly tie in with the first. In this case, I am watching Russia preparing to form a coalition to move down on Israel. Israel knows this is coming, as they saw the first try that God turned back. I will speculate here.
I find it quite likely that Israel will bomb the nuke factories in Iran, and that will give Russia the excuse to attack Israel. And with our present government, they will not fear our standing beside Israel, when they do attack. But I expect us (USA)as the young lions of Tarshish to do more than just ask if Russia has come for a spoil. Why even mention that, if we don’t follow thru?
We could be dragged into an all out nuclear war with Russia at that time in any of many ways. Surely, both countries would be on top alert, and even an accident could provoke one or the other to strike. We see that the surviving Russian soldiers near Israel head back for home when they get news from there. My guess is that news is that their home country has been destroyed.
I further guess that the USA will also be destroyed in judgment in this war. We know that Israel will be without a friend in the world as they head into the 7 years of Jacob’s trouble. This would set them up for seeing a certain man as their savior, the anti-christ.
The confusion that comes with war would also give a good time to rapture the Church, and the anti-christ would have an excuse for where all those people disappeared to. The big lie.
Like I said, this is speculation, but I think it’s healthy to see and discern the season we are in. DavWms
HI David,
small point here….Jacob’s trouble is 3 1/2 years…..in a 7 year final “week” before the end ….
yeah, Marianne. I have never settled the two halves of that 7 year period in my mind. I should just call it the 70th week of Daniel and play it safe. #;o) DavWms
Hello there, I am still new at this site and have had some discussion on the vast available areas here. I must say, Marianne a very impressive site, thanks!
What has helped me in understanding end-time prophecy is two-fold:
1) Timing
2) “Common” sense
With “timing” what I mean is; God wants us to understand Him and has revealed some of his plans for his most prized creation (us!)
We live in “time” somewhere between eternity past and eternity future. The sequence of prophetic events are indicated by time. i.e.: “the fullness of time” (Gal.4:4) ‘the times of the Gentiles” (Luke21:24) “the day of salvation”,”the last days” and so on. In Ecclesiastes 3, Solomon writes about time…Jesus challenges us to discern the signs of the times (Matt. 16:3) Time is important for us to help discover the sequence of events of God’s plan for Jews and Gentiles alike.
2) “Common” sense, even though it appears to be lacking in this day we live, never-the-less needs to be employed. A safe rule to follow when studying the book of Revelation end time prophecy is to accept the literal sense unless the facts are obviously to the contrary (“if the first sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.”)
Marianne;
I read the first entry on this web page calling the Rapture a Theological Invention. My sister quoted a verse to me the other day to give me the assurance why we won’t go throught the Tribulation:
I Thessallonians 5:9
God has not appointed us to wrath!
The Tribulation is the pouring out of his wrath. I’m going to hold on to that verse, especailly when I see Micro-chipping being so openly talked about these days. Here’s another video on Micro-chipping at the Baja Beach Club in Rotterdam,Holland for VIPS to get in and they don’t have to have money for the entrance fee or to purchase food etc. I can’t believe people are so gullible to allow their idenity to be put on a Micro Chip. This is attonishing. This is just an indication of the what’s in store for the future:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lS1mWnynYg
Kittii
hi Kitti
I think what makes the tribulation – yes or no – as an experience for the saints debatable……is that there are many Christians “in name only” that will suffer as true believers will be raptured.
Remember the parable of the 10 virgins. Half were ready, and half were not. Those that are ready will go, and those not ready will have to go through tribulation.
Marianne;
The You Tube above says embedding is disabled, but your bloggers can click on YOU TUBE in the corner to view it. What I find so compelling about this YOU TUBE is the interviewing and actual implanting of a chip into one of the customers, the interviewing of the manager of the club, and they show the information that is viewed on a monitor after the embedding process when you enter the club. Don’t miss viewing this YOU TUBE. I tried to locate a similar one and was not successful, but that doesn’t mean you can’t view it, you just have to go to YOU TUBE, whick isn’t hard to do. I can’t stress it enough to view it. Unbelievable. And they are so casual about it. No big deal! No wonder there’s a NOAH’S ARK replica built in the Netherlands.
Matthew 24:37-39
Go to the Noah’s Ark web page to view the video on replica of Noah’s Ark in the Netherlands.
Kittii
Marianne;
Here’s another Great Dave Hunt YOU TUBE:
He talks about Micro Chips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAnOLL9q4Dk&feature=related
Kittii
They are beasts and have the brains of snakes!
The audacity of thinking that they can ‘re – create’ anything!
Submitted by Dave to me through email…..
Information on the Pre-tribulation rapture view:
http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Expanded.htm
If anybody has a question of when the rapture is, the above link will cover every argument and then some. Thank you, Marianne. DavWms
Hello David. Always glad to see you post. This website is a wonderful expository resource. It’s forceful, without being overbearing. The Great Tribulation, or wrath and the attendant Second Coming of our Lord, is spoken of more than any other event in the Bible. The Old Testament makes it clear of its two main purposes: To crush Israel for their rejection of their Messiah until they at least see their error and receive the Lord as their Messiah and to punish the Gentile world for their sins. Period. The church is completely and utterly out of the way as the time of the Gentiles has ended.
Good to see you posting again, Armardo. I have been posting less, as i try to get my blood pressure under control after my stroke back in Feb. I find that when I mentally focus on anything, it rises. That includes even planning construction of some shelves in my shed. So I’m trying to find the level on which I can operate safely. If a serious enuf subject comes up where i feel a need to reply, I will. DavWms
Rest then, friend. Ours is the only faith that promises its adherents new bodies. I thank God for this and for you. If Marianne isn’t opposed, I’d like for her to give you my email address. Stay encouraged. Be blessed. Maranatha.
Amardo, Marianne has published my email addy here already, and you can contact me thru it. DavWms777@AOL.com
I thot of you and wished I had your addy this morning when I got a publication and wanted to fwd it to you. DavWms
The reason for believing in a rapture is when Jesus says the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan will be let loose. The only thing stopping satan now is the holy spirit. Before the day of pentecost salvation was attained by sacrafices. When Jesus sent the HS he promised he will never leave us (through the HS). If the HS is removed from the earth he must take us with him, it is a promise. The reason for 144,000 Jews is because the last days will be as the days of Jews. Many will be saved, but it will be through martrydom because people will realize and not follow the antichrist. Then there will be a lot of faithful who will resist the antichrist and live through the tribulation when Christ with his Saints return to set up a new kingdom. It is free will. One must also realize God is consistent in all he does. Anytime there was a destruction he “removed” the faithful. Lot was removed, Noah was removed and protected through the destruction. I believe he will remove us as well in the next destruction. Nevertheless, the only thing that really matters is our salvation regardless of rapture or no rapture. God wants us to question all things and research all things. He knows we will not always agree. One thing we do agree upon, which is the most important is that we must be saved. Still though, people who believe in him after a rapture would be like those who believed in him before he died. The HS did not come upon them until the day of pentecost yet they were still saved through their faith in Him. The HS did not fill those who were saved prior to the HS coming at pentecost, but were still saved. The HS was during the time of the gentiles. Pre HS was days of the Jews, and during the trib it will be like the days of the Jews again. Hence why 144,000 Jews are going to witness to people, it will not be the gentiles. God’s plan began with the Jews and will end with the Jews, but through his mercy and our faith gentiles were grafted in. During the days of gentiles the Jews eyes have been closed. When we are gone, they will be opened again. Just my belief.
hi carla
good thoughts. I hope for the future now, and do not look much at my present circumstances.
I find it amusing in a sad kind of way to see Christians all fighting over the details of how it all started and how it all will end. I think we should be more worried about all the good stuff in the middle and spreading the gospel of Christ to all four corners of the globe. As far as the rapture goes, if you stop and think about it, having a rapture would mean two second comings. Jesus comes back and resurrects the dead and gathers up the living saints and then comes back again in seven years for the ones that converted during that time. So, party up for if you don’t make it the first time around, you get a second chance. Secondly, when Jesus comes, it won’t be a secret. With a trumpet and a shout and clouds and clouds of angels, I seriously doubt that anybody is going to miss that big event. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In the end, it isn’t going to make a huge amount of difference how it goes if we are ready when it happens. We need to get the message out there to anyone that will listen to get right with God, repent of their sins, make Jesus their Lord and savior and follow Him with all their heart so that they will be ready too. So, smile and rejoice in the Lord. Go find somebody that looks sad and put a little light in their life so they can smile and rejoice in the Lord too.
hi RIck
I agree. We should keep our eyes on Jesus. There are discussions on this site for people who believe different things. Hopefully, they will be prepared for when things do happen, according to God’s plan, and not according to what we just think His plan is.