Does the antichrist need a temple to stand in the holy place?
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The coming Antichrist stands in the holy place and commits his abomination of desolation. How much of a temple, if any, is required for him to do this?
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The predicted abomination of desolation – quick review
Jesus said:
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that reads understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:
What Daniel said:
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Who is “he?”
Dan 11:7 But out of a branch of her [king’s daughter of the south – union with king of north] roots shall [one] stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:
Dan 11:31 And arms (forces) shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that makes desolate.
Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (43 months)
**Note – 2 ways to read this:
1. so the daily sacrifice is removed first, and then the abomination occurs 43 months later. Once the abomination occurs, Jacob’s trouble begins another 1260 days, or 42 months.
2. the daily sacrifice is first taken away, then 30 days later the abomination occurs, which starts the 1260 days of Jacob’s trouble. The total number of days is 1290.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/birds_eye.htm
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What kind of “holy place” are they referring to?
Possibilities:
1. the outer holy place, that is the entrance to the Holy of Holies, in the real final rebuilt temple
2. the site where the holy place used to be, when the temple was still standing. This currently is inside the Al- Sakhra Mosque- on the Dome of the Rock. (area “C” on image above)
3. a temporary structure for training Levites, in which sacrifices are made, and a holy place is assembled. I heard there is one somewhere, but I don’t know its location.
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Thought:
Possibly, to God, the “holy place” will always be the original “holy place,” no matter what is there. And whatever is there either desecrates it, or affirms its holiness.
Suppose the man of sin visited the future site of the 3rd temple, and stood in the lobby of the Al- Sakhra Mosque (area “C” on image above)????
Would that be enough to fulfill prophecy?
The Jews do not plan to have a 3rd temple until the Messiah comes, indicating they will not build one unless the Messiah is around first. They believe the Messiah himself will direct the building of the 3rd temple.
This means that whatever the man of sin uses will not be the real final temple, built by Messiah.
So what does he use?
Daniel 11:21-24 said he would come in peacefully, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Daniel 11:31 said that “arms” would stand on “his part,” meaning there are military forces or soldiers on his part of the temple mount, and implies the “other part” belongs to the Jews. Apparently, the original “holy place” is still on his side.
So the temple mount is divided?
There has been some political talk of dividing the temple mount, and putting a new temple beside the mosque. Maybe this kind of agreement will occur in the future.
Here is some of the current discussion:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-153892508.html
If so,
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Conclusion
Then all the antichrist has to do is stand in the lobby of the mosque, and declare himself God, since the mosque sits on the original holy place.
If true, then watch all future political and spiritual leaders, if they visit the temple mount. Watch their behavior, and be prepared for anything. Or watch for their holograms!!!!
Maybe the antichrist will give us a clue, by first standing in our holy places (what is holy to us), and making them his. Once he gains victory, he moves on to the temple mount.
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What do you think? Is a temple needed for the antichrist to commit his abomination?
Heaven Awaits 
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Does the antichrist need a temple to stand in the holy place? « Heaven Awaits said this on April 28, 2009 at 11:20 pm |
First of all, what is the temple of God that is mentioned. Is it the temple of the old covenant, or the new covenant. When the Apostle Paul speaks of the temple of God to the Corinthians, he tells them that they are the temple of God (ICor.3:16-17) He wrote to the Thessalonians that the Man of Sin would proclaim himself to be God in the temple of God (see II Thessalonians 2:3-4) Now I appeal to you all here is the Apostle contradicting himself here and describing two different temples here? I think not. Remember we are a spiritual house or temple made of lively stones, these stones or gems reflecting the New Jerusalem. This is the temple the prophets and the Lord Jesus was talking about. Read Revelation chapter 17. The papacy claims to be the only Christian Church, or legitament Church, and all others are her daughters who will eventually succumb to political and economical presure to bring about the completion of the New World Order. All Christians outside of this movement will either be silenced or imprisoned. This blending of the false Prophet (Papacy)and Islamic Man of Sin governing the predominently muslum nations of the Eastern Roman Empire will both unite under the umbrella of Mary Worhip or the Queen of Heaven. This is what they both have in common and the iron and clay of the ten toes of Daniel’s prophecy fits in our day. This abomination of Desolation is the edict of the Papacy for years. They claim that the Pope is the Head of the Christian Church and He is infalliable. In other words, when the Pope speaks it means God is speaking, and as one Pope said a few years ago, ” What does that make me but God himself” Jesus Christ is the Head of his body not the papacy or the one who rules in the office. The Ceasers had to do something since the Roman Empire was crumbling from within, as well as the prosperous growth of Christianity through persecutions. Constentine actually was the first Pope. By legalizing Christianity as the state religion, persecutions stopped and paganism was filtered into the church to satisfy all parties economical and political. Satan played his cards well. If he can’t destroy the church from without, then he will become one of us claiming to be a Christian to infect the church thus quenching and grieving away the Holy Spirit, and to set up Satan’s throne in Rome. THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS NOT A GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION BUT IN THE SPIRIT. Christians died because they wouldn’t acknowledge the Pope as God. The mixture of Babylonism and Islam, for this is the mixture the scriptures speak of will be so powerful that it will be next to impossible to make war against the Beast. Only those in Rev 12:11- And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and loved not their lives unto death. Islam possessing Nuclear weapons either thru Islamic extremist governments or thru terrorist organizations will strike fear in nations around the globe, especially if a nuclear weapon was detonated in an American city. This would strike fear to every nation, knowing that the genie had been unleashed on an American city, something no one ever thought would happen outside of Russia in the cold .. With this threat and fear, just like the fear after 9/11, The leader of the Islamic world would compel all to worship the Man of Sin, and recieve His seal of vatican law governing the world thru the worship of the Queen of Heaven. We will be tested according to Daniel 11:32-39. As Jesus said He who endures to the end shall be saved. Oh Christians we have nothing to worry about, for the people who know their God shall be strong and do exploits. Signs, wonders, miracles, the Spirit and power of Elijah will be manifest in us as Christ in us the hope of Glory. I close with Isaiah 60:1-2 amplified version) “Arise (from the depression and prostration in which circumstances have kept you; rise to a new life) Shine-be radiant with the glory of the Lord; for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon you, For behold darkness shall cover the earth, and dense darkness all the peoples, but the Lord shall rise upon you, and His glory shall be seen on you.
Just to reply-Mark McCloskey: Please first you’d require to correct your misconception – Catholics as Mary Worshippers or Queen of Heaven worshippers. Catholics do not worshp Mary, we love and respect/venerate her as a Mother and hero of the church. As personally won’t mind calling her a Queen as the kind of sacrifice she had made and suffered along with Jesus in support of His salvifice mission. Even on the day of Pentecost she was present along with the Apostles when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit took place. We too all are discerning God’s plan and revelations in these last days. We fulfill her prophesy -…my soul magnifies the Lord…henceforth all generation will call me blessed…(by giving her due respect).
Now coming to the point, spiritually the Antichrist will play Godly authority on the body temple of God who allow the Antichrist to engrave his number 666(or a CODE) through some electro-magnetic device as he may have control over vital aspect of a person’s life through technology…
Materially perhaps, as mentioned by many he will establish himself in the holy of holies the inner Sanctuary and deny Jesus Christ as the True Messiah and His atoning blood for the salvation of mankind.
Historically it has been the case that Catholics have honored Mary even more than Jesus himself. Jesus honored his mother of course, but he also had to correct her on two occasions as the scriptures plainly reveal. Also there is this despicable fact that in our time Catholicism has exalted Mary almost to the position of a forth person of the God head.
Hello Mark,
If I might interject, Roman Catholicism considers Mary as being without sin, a co-redeemer, co-savior and co-mediator along side of Christ. If you are or anyone else is believing in this, then this would be worship. Roman Catholic dogma also states that when one partakes of the eucharist that Jesus is actually coming down into the waffer and the partaker is literally eating his flesh. The act of breaking bread symbolically represents his body that was broken for us, that is, for our good health and well being (Isaiah 53:4). Partaking of the cup was meant to be done symbolically, which represents his blood that was shed for us. When we do this symbolic act, we are fulfilling what Jesus asked us to do when he said: “As often as you do this, do this this in remembrance of me.” Roman Catholicism dogma says that if anyone says that when participating in this act, that if anyone says that it is just symbolic, then let them be an athema (accursed).
In regards to Mary, she was no doubt a blessed woman who was used of God to bring Christ into the world so that he could be kinned with us in the flesh in order to redeem us, but that is as far as it should go with Mary. If you study the Scriptures, you will not find one place that infers that Mary has anything to do directly with making atonement for us, nor are we told to worship or give credit to her for salvation. As the word of God states, “There is one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.” Nowhere are we told to pray to Mary, for that would make her a mediator between us and God. Mary cannot mete out grace, she cannot hear prayers and cannot speak to God on our behalf.
We need to focus our spiritual eyes on the author of our faith, Yesuha Hamashiach, Jesus Christ. He is the one who was without sin, yet paid the penalty for sins on our behalf. He is the one who took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, so that it wouldn’t come upon us. We need to focus on him and get our eyes off the traditions of men and their false teachings, for those things will not save you, but they will seperate you from Christ. We need to study his word and if anyone is teaching contrary to what is in his word, then we need seperate ourselves from those men and their teachings.
“Do this in remembrance of me” meant when you are having the unleavened bread (matzo) on passover remember me as your unleavened bread that was striped, perfurated and broken for you. Similiarly the 3rd cup of redemption was the cup after supper on passover. When Paul said “as oft as ye drink it” he meant the obvious- once a year on passover, that is the only possible day to drink the 3rd cup of redemption of a passover seder. When we call the best man to make a toast to the bride do we do that any day of the year? obviously not only at the wedding reception! When christians have what they call the “Lord’s supper” it is a silly man made tradition for those that have not had the veil removed from before their eyes of the feasts of the Lord. “The Lord’s supper” is like when Nadab and Abihu offered strange and unholy fire before the Lord, as He had not commanded them. And the Lord killed them. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you, or not, and you will continue to have eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear the truth that is hidden right in front of us all on the pages of God’s word. Pray for the heart of David
I’m Catholic and have never once heard Mary was a co-redeemer or co-Saviour of any sort. And to dispel another myth that we don’t read our Bibles–at Mass alone we cover the entire Bible every 3 years in contrast to many churches who cherry pick their favorite verses and pound them into the congregation’s heads. I havw 25-30 Bibles in my home of many different versions besides Catholic. When I am doing a Bible study I often read from several versions to get a better grasp if what’s being said.
Most of my Bibles are protestant since I spent the first 56 years of my life in various protestant churches.
I’ve read the Bible cover to cover several times not counting the 1000s of hours of study in different books of the Bible. One reason I converted was the Holy Spirit just flowed so much when I’d visit that church to the point I just couldn’t shake that wonderful feeling.
No, our church may not be perfect but one thing she is not–she is not politically correct like so many protestant churches have succumbed to.
Just wanted to dispel a couple of myths about the Catholic church.
Thank you for this site, I stumbled on it today while searching for the black Jesus lie; and I’ve been on this site most of the day.
cathy
maybe times have changed, but I grew up catholic, and was taught Mary was coredemtrix. if you google this, you will pull up links like this one:
https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/coredemedadv.htm
I remember as a child, participating in Mary processions, in May, where we would sing in Latin praises to her, and English, (O Immaculate Mary was one), and carry her statue up, crowned with flowers, the aisle to the front of the church.
I also wore a scapula, with her picture on it, so I would not go to hell.
also, we never opened our bibles and heard the same 52 teachings every year, which recycled. we were told all that was required of us was to go to mass, and obey the 10 commandments, and go to confession at least once a year. we had very small prayer books that contained all we needed to know.
I think since you spent the first 56 years in protestant churches, not catholic, you missed this.
I noticed in the 1970s that bible study became more of an interest, and Mary became less important, at least in America. this was after the charismatic renewal.
I am glad to hear things have improved more.
I do not disrespect catholics or protestants, since I see more the heart of each, and want to focus on what the bible says
Mark!
thegreatprincemichael at yahoo dot com
Write, include digits, or you’re an Antichrist and unbeliever.
– Michael
This is what the people need to know !!! I believe we r the temple,therefore the people need stop looking ,waiting, for a physical new temple to b built ,christ has built his body up, with him as the head, we have like minds,we r 1 flesh,and spirit, with Christ ,together we are the fulfillment of this prophesy. The time of Christ’s return is now! Wake up sleepers
I’m just not sure that the Dome of the Rock is the location of the earlier Temples. I’ve been in the mosque, and you can see many chiseled troughs on the rock’s surface. The troughs are obviously there for a liquid to run off quickly. I suspect it was for the blood from sacrificed lambs.
Some scholars place the original site of the Temple just inside the Eastern Gate, which Jesus will one day enter thru. Lately, it has also been noticed that one rock slab there is greatly different from the rest surrounding it. Some think this one rock slab was where the Ark of the Covenent once stood.
Nor am I convinced that the Israelis will not build a Temple soon. It is an ongoing argument whether they are to wait for the Messiah or not. And rumors abound that not only have they already remade the implements of the Temple, but also have the rocks carved from which to quickly assemble the Temple.
It would not surprise me if soon we see a dividing wall on the Temple Mount, and then see the new Temple built just inside the Eastern Gate.
Like most prophesies, we have to wait and see just how they are fulfilled. DavWms
Hi david,
I would really like to see what they do on the temple mount…..and actually live to see it before we “leave.”
I thought this post was quite interesting and definitely spurred some serious thought. But I am tempted take the prophecies of Daniel back to the time of the Intertestamental period. I believe those prophecies where fulfilled at that point. Antiochus Epiphanes IV thought himself a god and stepped into the temple, desecrating it by sacrificing a pig on the alter. You can clearly see a sort of foreshadow of the anti-christ. His name alone, Antiochus Epipanes, means God made manifest. Jesus Christ is the one and only God manifested in the flesh.
You can hypothesize that Antiochus Epipanes, at the end of the age of the law, sought to desecrate God’s Holy Place (the temple). This system was set in place by Moses, one of God’s great mouthpieces. On the other hand, Jesus Christ, the son of God, and the true manifestation of God in the flesh (not Antiochus), has set in motion the period of grace. Jesus came, not to establish another physical temple, but to tabernacle with man and man with God. Our bodies have become the temple. We can hypothesize that at the end of this age there will be a second Antiochus, an anti-christ, who will seek to desecrate God’s holy place. The place God has established as his temple. I believe the anti-christ will seek and is seeking now to desecrate God’s temple.
The temple is not only individual Christians but the church as a whole. We can clearly see the desecration already taking place. Government is slowly forcing its way into the church, attempting to dictate what believes and pastors should and should not preach (under the guise of political correctness and discrimination). But what will be the ultimate culmination of this desecration? What do you think?
hi trevauhn,
I think you were reading my mind. I had hinted at the end that the antichrist would try to stand in “our” holy place, making us his. This is the greatest danger, since once he has won favor with the population, he is free to do anything he wants next. Our holy place is our souls…and we need to guard our minds, thoughts, and behavior…and stay close to God….it will be easy to be led astray if we depart from our first love, and find our own temples defiled.
great comment….thanks
Many prophesies have a double fulfillment. In any case, I think we have to consider that during the millenium, there will be sacrificing of lambs again. Will this be without a Temple nearby? DavWms
HI david,
I forgot to mention this to trevaughn, but I think Antiochus only party fulfilled the prophecy. There also have been plenty of Antichrist figures invading Jerusalem and desecrating holy ground. also, Antiochus did not have any covenant with Israel that he broke, and he was not stopped by the Messiah.
the 3rd temple seems due. Prophecy indicates that when the Messiah returns, he will sit in the temple….I guess that is the literal one that Ezechiel saw in his vision.
Another thing to consider is that all earthly inhabitants will have to visit Jerusalem during the millenium. (Is it annually?) What will they come for, to worship at the Temple? Remember, the court of the gentiles will no longer be there.
As for the Temple being in the heart of the Church, and even tho that is true, we have to consider something else. There, we are talking about the Bride, and the Bride does not have the same destiny as the Jews. The Bride will be living in Heavenly bodies, while the Jews will yet be living in earthly bodies thruout the 1,000 yrs. So when we talk about the Temple here, we must be talking about the physical one on the Temple Mount. DavWms
Jesus said when you see the abomination that casues desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel…And Jesus said that the people of Israel should not even go down and get their cloak but instead flee to the mountains as fast as possible. Why? Because the armies of the antichrist will rape the women and do vile things, as many many Old Test passages predict. In regaurds to this,Daniel stated:
And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”
Daniel 9:26-27 (in Context) Daniel 9 (Whole Chapter)
# Daniel 11:31
“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
Armies of the A/C shall stop the Jewish sacriice and there the A/C shall proclaim himself God…and then the desolation shall take place
To answer your question, no, but I expect there will need to be an altar in order for the sacrifices to be done properly. The Scripture says that the Messiah will rebuild the third temple, but the altar will undoubtedly be the first thing built and could be built by man first. Considering they have the animals ready for sacrifice and each year try to reinstate the Passover sacrifice, this could happen anytime.
I thought this site was interesting and offers a different location:
http://becomingone.org/templemount.htm
Hi Gina.
thanks for the link. good info.
Where is the temple of the Lord? Again I ask, where is the temple of the Lord today? Answer this question and you will understand how these things will come to pass.
1 Corinthians 3:16.
Wherefore then is the Holy place?
Blessings,
Tim
PS. If it’s any help to you. Messiah has already built the temple. Why are you looking for another one?
Hi Tim,
I wonder if the original prophecy took into consideration the temple as being our spirit, instead of a building.
Hello Flee the wrath,
Allow me to interject here. Regarding your statement, “Where is the temple of the Lord? Again I ask, where is the temple of the Lord today? Answer this question and you will understand how these things will come to pass.
PS. If it’s any help to you. Messiah has already built the temple. Why are you looking for another one?”
It would appear that you are trying to infer that because 1 Cor.3:16 is referring to our bodies as being the temple of the Holy Spirit that this is the temple that Jesus and Daniel were speaking about. Though it is true that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the temple that is being spoken of is a literal future temple, where that ruler, that beast, causes the daily sacrifice to cease and sets up that abomination in the holy place, which in turn causes the desolation of Jerusalem. Therefore, from the context alone the reader can come to the conclusion that a literal temple is what is in view opposed to the human body, as there is no reason to try to spiritualize it. In fact, the abomination of desolation is mentioned in Revelation 13:14-15, not by the name, but by discription as an image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast, that is, the man of lawlessness, the beast, the antichrist, pick a name, for they are the same person. Also, since Scripture says that the ruler will cause the daily sacrifice to cease, this would show that those who will be doing the sacrificing are doing so according to the law of Moses, which means that they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that would mean that the Holy Spirit would not be dwelling in them. For only those who have received Christ as Lord and Saviour are indwelt by the Spirit.
Furthermore, since Jesus referred back to what Daniel had said regarding the setting up of the abomination of desolation as still future and seeing that the temple that existed when he had said this was destroyed in 70 AD without fulfillment, then it stands to reason that there must be a future temple in order for the daily sacrifices to be ceased as well as a holy place to set up the abomination. On top of all that, when this abomination is set up, Jesus will be returning approximately 3 1/2 years later to bring an end to human government (what will be left of it), will have the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire and will have Satan sealed up in the Abyss during the time of his thousand reign.
We already know that Israel has been in preparation for the next temple, for they have already chosen 70 for the Sanhedren, have been preparring the priests clothing, the furniture and have been teaching how to perform all of the related rituals requried for temple worship, etc. So we know that it is coming.
In any case, the context of the Scriptures shows that Daniel and Jesus were speaking about a literal temple and not our bodies as the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.
Don,
I used to see things from your perspective at one time. Yours is the traditional belief and makes sense to most. Please don’t be offended that I no longer see it from your perspective. This is way too big an issue to walk away from. I will stand by the spiritual fulfillment of these things. Every point that you make in terms of a natural fulfillment can also be spiritualized.
Remembering that the scripture itself says, first the natural, and then the spiritual. This is a spiritual covenant. The abomination, the man of sin/son of perdition are this great mystery to which Paul refers to as “the mystery of iniquity” which doth already work.
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:7
It is a mystery which will be revealed as we approach the end of this age according to Pauls teaching “the revealing of the man of lawlesness” 2 Thess 2:3
He uses the word “revealing for this very reason, it has been hidden.
Please take the time to look at these verses:
Many will come using my name. They will say, ‘Jesus is the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many people. Mat 24:5
I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock. Acts 20:29
But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. 2 Peter 2:1
And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Mat 24:11
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:14
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud,… 2 Timothy 3:1
Every one of these verses points to a working of error amidst the congregation of the Lord – His temple. All of these verses were spoken for our admonition, to the body of Christ, that we might not be deceived.
Christ did not hide the fact that the tares and wheat would grow together until the end of the age. Then there would come a separating according to the “revealing” which Paul alludes to.
Again, forgive any offense. But I earnestly believe that the focus on the Jewish temple is a distraction from the issue at hand. And that it the wholesale apostasy of the mainstream Christian church.
Just one example – The foundations of the gospel concerning discipleship that one must forsake all, deny self, sell what you have, lose his life to gain it, pick up your cross, and I could list a whole bunch more are for the most part denied as being requirements of discipleship in this day.
When these foundational requirements are removed, in the end we have a gospel that is according to the will of man. All can follow and all can choose the terms on which they do so. And we end up with a man of lawlessness, that is to say, denies the law of Christ.
And he was always and still is according to scriptures I quoted above, amidst the congregation.
God Bless.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Everyone is entitled to their own apinion of interpretation. I know that there will be false christ’s and false prophets, in fact, that is already the situation. We have had the Jim Jones, the David Kareshes, Michael Trevessors and many more who have proclaimed to be the Messiah. But, not only will there be those with the spirit of the man of lawlessness, but there is also going to be one specific man who will be that antichrist. It is said that this beast is going to have a mark and that anyone who will not receive it will not be able to buy or sell, which is crediting and debiting. I have been watching the technology for the mark since the early 80’s when the first ATM’s came out and knew that this was related. Then came the point of sale system (POS), which as you know allows people to debit their bank accounts in real time. Now all businesses have been equiped with the veriphone device that allows the use of electronic payment via computer transaction. At the same time, checks and cash are continueing to be phased out and will continue to do so. Furthermore, for the last several years, subdermal RFID chips have been manufactured having different applications such as, medical information, livestock, pets, prisoners, children, etc. There is another application which is for the purpose of crediting and debiting ones bank account. These chips are in fact already in use and as time goes on we will continue to see the emergence of these personal subdermal chips and they will eventually run parallel with cash, checks, credit and debit cards. After that beast has come, somewhere in the middle of that last seven years, that beast and the false prophet will make the other methods of buying selling obsolete leaving only that mark (subdermal chip) to be able credit and debit ones bank account. By making the rest of the methods of buying and selling obsolete, this is how he will “Force” all, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive it. People say, “That’ll never happen!” But the fact is, it already is happening. Everytime I go to the store, I observe how readily people are to use their debit cards opposed to cash or check. They are already using the technology for the mark, which is crediting and debiting via computer transaction. The world is being conditioned and prepared for it and they don’t even know it. If I can see the mark of the beast being set up, then there is going to be a literal beast who will soon be revealed and will be given power and authority over all the inhabitants of the earth, all whose names that were not written in the book of live before the world began.
This not only about Isreal, but also about bringing an end to human governemt as described in Daniel regarding Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the statue, which represented all of the world ruling kingdom’s, that ten toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay being the one that is coming up. The ten toes are synonymous with the ten kings in revelation 17 who become kings and give him their power and authority to the beast. Believe me, if someone presented something to me that was plausible, I would look into it. As it is, I have studied the word of God for over 37 years and I know that literal man of lawlessness must come first, along with that false prophet. So, I supoose we can agree to disagree, but I will continue to watch as this mark technology continues to evolve and the use of checks and cash continue to diminish.
Marianne,
As you know prophecy often has a dual fulfillment, whether or not Daniel understood that the prophecy would apply to a spiritual temple I do not know.
Paul alluded to the mystery that we speak of when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:46 The spiritual does not come first, but the physical does, and then comes the spiritual.
In the same way that the circumcision was physical, in Christ it is spiritual. Messiah has built the temple, and it is not physical, as was the Jewish temple, but spiritual.
If you want some further understanding on this Antichrist in the temple issue, read closely and prayerfully the teaching of Paul in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2.
Blessings,
Tim
There certainly will be a third physical temple made according to the Biblical instructions. Take a look at Zechariah 8 and 14 again. The last 8 chapters of Ezekiel also give us a picture of the 3rd temple and reinstatement of the sacrificial system during the Millennium.
Gina,
Perhaps there will be another temple, as you say. Perhaps there will be a re-introduction of the sacrificial system, as you say. If so I imagine that God will think it an abomination.
Do you understand what you are saying. That that sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient to satisfy the wrath of God. So now He is suggesting that sacrifice will be required once more.
A new temple, when Christ suffered on the cross, as a propitiation for our sin, that He might establish to Himself a new living temple, not made with mens hands.
Did Christ suffer and die in vain, was all of that counted as nothing and now we return to temple worship and the law of Moses.
I don’t see why we keep looking to a new physical temple. Perhaps I am missing the point. Please explain why the return to temple worship and sacrificial offering?
Blessings,
Tim
Hi Flee the wrath
The atonement offering for sin may no longer be necessary, but that was only offered once a year anyhow, on Yom Kippur.
There were many elevation offerings, praise offerings, dedication offerings, thanksgiving offerings, etc. that could still be offered – more to honor God, than to appease wrath.
Tim, this is not about the Christians needing a Temple. This is about setting things up again for the 70th week of Daniel. (The grand finale’)This is only considering the Jews and their, “Jacobs Trouble.” Not only are they likely to have a 3rd Temple, but the rest of the world will also form back to much like it was when Jesus went to the Cross and the Temple was burned. Essentially the same “”Roman Empire” will again be in charge. DavWms
DavWms,
Thanks, I appreciate the other angle.
I guess it concerns me, and it seems to me that there is a large portion of the church that is completely unaware or not mindful of the fact that satans’ pursuit at this time is the temple of the Holy Spirit. He desires to usurp the worship that belongs to God, and he is doing very well.
Lucifer desires to sit upon the mount of the congregation, to deceive. To sit in the Holy place.
We look at this new temple teaching, we sit in our comfy churches just waiting for Lucifer to come and deceive the Jews in a new physical temple, but in reality Lucifer is working away in the Spiritual temple, men are believing the lie, and perishing in the pews.
Blessings,
Tim
Hi Tim,
True, people should be more concerned with their own inner temples than a future building. If there is one, then we cannot merit entering into it, if our souls are defiled. The inner temple is of the greater importance.
excellent points everyone. it was a pleasure to read. regardless of either view you might hold to may it burn the light of Christ brighter in out hearts to draw all men unto Him. one thing for sure the day is closer. Satan knows his time is short. Pray to the Lord of the harvest to send workers into the field. Put on the full armor of God.
Hi Mike,
Both temples exist in some way.
Originally, the building foreshadowed the spiritual temple.
Now, maybe the spiritual temple is foreshadowing the next building.
Revelation 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
That makes it clear that there will be a temple. I have also heard that the location of the “Dome of the Rock” is not the location of the temple. It may rather be where the Al Aqsa mosque is now.
Wrong on both accounts. The third temple is where the courts are to be measured by the two witnesses, uh, no they are not with the beast that ascends from the pit and yes, they are in the spirit of moses and elijah, standing before The Lord of the whole earth.
Let’s move it, do not tip off Israel about the “six” angels with blades.
GYOD, the mosque is built right over the rock peak of the mountain. That mosque is called, “The Dome of the Rock.” So they are one and the same. Scroll up some (about 20) and see the post I made on this subject. But you are right, that there will be a Temple on the mount.
BTW, when we were in the mosque with our guide, we were told some of the building materials for it were taken from the ruins of the previous Temple. And that some of the writings on the walls were blasphemy against Jesus. DavWms
David, the scripture, I quoted, states that is the temple of God. Either it is holy in total or it is unholy. Just because there is some material from the old temple does not make this place acceptable and I assume that no priest will offer any sacrifice there.
Hi all. A most interesting topic. Have you ever considered that the “sacrifice to be ended” might in fact be the Holy Eucharist, or for want of a better word the commemoration of the Body and Blood of Christ that most Christians partake of during Sunday worship. Christ told all of us that the temple would be destroyed and that he would rebuild it within three days. Thus I assume that it is safe to say that the temple is one built by Christ himself in the spiritual as well as physical sense. Of course the spiritual followed His physical death and resurection. Perhaps we can deduce that the abomdination will occur within the Christian Church, for this is in fact the true temple of God.
Hi Peter,
It seems abomination can occur on several levels
within ourselves
within our nations / society
within our churches
within a future or current building, used as a temple
Amen Peter,
The apostle Paul speaks of the one who sits in the temple, presuming to be God, as the son of perdition. 2 Thes 2:3.
There was only one other son of perdition. Judas, who was of the 12, he was in the fellowship of believers, but no one knew this until the appointed time came. Then son of perdition was revealed, and the Christ was betrayed.
When men sit in the temple of God, presuming that the gospel of Christ and godliness is a means of financial gain, they become just as Judas. Ultimately, in the latter days, I believe that those who value their treasure more than truth will sell and betray the body of Christ into the hands of unjust men. There is nothing new under the sun.
Blessings,
Tim
Peter, the “Holy Eucharist” is an abomination in God’s eyes. The doctrine of transubstantiation is of occult nature.
Yes Marianne. I agree. All said and done we have no power over that which is inevitable save to safeguard our own thoughts and deeds. I believe that salvation is a personal voyage that starts with developing a personal relationship with Christ. Evil does at this very moment surround us and touch everything that you mentioned, but it is up to the individual to find Christ. If more of us were to be true and fearless Christians and not merely claim to be as such then perhaps we wouldnt be so fearful of the persecution to come. One thing that we cannot do is rewrite the Good Book.
Hi Marianne,
“Holy Stone, Holy Stone … Holy Holy Stone … in the future the nations will defile you by placing dead bodies on top of you, sullying the Holy Place”
These are the words of Rabbi Elezar crying out and echoing through the centuries.
The Rock , the Pierce Stone is the Rock upon which the Ark of the Everlasting Covenent was laid upon.
And from this Foundation Stone the world was founded.
And from this Holy Stone God accepted the sacrifices of Adam, Abel, Noah, and
Abraham when by faith he offered his son Isaac unto God.
Upon this most Holy Stone the High Priest burned incense and sprinkled the blood of the sacrifices on it on the day of Atonement.
This Holy Stone is the centre of the World, the centre of Jerusalem, the centre of Judaism, the centre of true Christianity (those who believe and obey the entirety of the Holy Scriptures).
The Pierce Stone, the centre of the Sanctuary, the centre of the Universe,
the centre of Truth is the same Stone now DORMANT under the Dome of The Rock.
When Jesus Says : ‘ But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STANDING where it ought not, (let him the reads understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:
And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither (therein), to take any thing out of his house:
But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
And pray that your flight be not in the winter.
For in those days shall be afflictions ( a crippling affliction to the nervous system) such as not from the beginning of the creation of God created unto this time, neither shall be.
And except that the LORD had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved. (Mark 13 : 14, 20)
I don’t think The Lord is speaking of levels here although who can know the depths of His Wisdom.
This is a very physical, 3D, factual, truthful prophesy!
Do not be allured!
Why is it that there seems to be many who would twist The Words of The Lord into some fascinating, incredible fantasy of spiritualism based doctrine??
Now to continue my discourse …
We all know that the Temple was destroyed in 69-70 A.D. by the Romans;
A terrible epoch.
Even from then to now, they are still digging and searching and desecrating this Holy site.
They do not fear God!!
*****But which is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifies the gift???????
Answer this and you have answered whether or not the antichrist needs a temple to stand in the holy place.
I will leave my discourse with this … for now.
Abigail,
Read Corinthians.
1Cr 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cr 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1Cr 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
I’m pretty sure that the apostle Paul was not talking to a rock. He was actually talking to people, the Corinthian church. They were the temple of God. As those of us who are of the Christian faith.
Messiah has built His temple!
Blessings,
Tim
hi Tim
Good discussions. It looks like he is already here, then.
Tim, Corinthians does not exclude that there will be a future temple. God said in the OT that once the remnant Israelites will be purified and sanctified they will bring acceptable sacrifices unto Him.
God is only interested in one temple. He shed His own blood to build it. The only acceptable sacrifice pertaining to purification and sanctification is when the Israelite believes upon the sacrifice of the lamb, of God.
There is no other acceptable sacrifice in light of the completed work of Christ.
I didn’t say that they will not build a new temple, however I doubt they will. What I am saying is if they do, unless Christ is to be found in it, then it is an abomination as far as God is concerned.
Blessings,
Tim
Man was given 6,000 years to be a fool.
Coming to a close shortly.
Yes I am the Temple of The Living God for Christ dwells in me. I am born again but this time my birth is from The Mighty Spirit of The Father of Jesus Christ, and not from my mother who bore this earthly vessel.
Yes and I am confident that any who would try to destroy this vessel will answer to God, because Him who dwells in me is much Mightier than he who dwells in the world. And I am holy because I walk with God in perfect Holiness. I am Holy because He is Holy and He is with me.
And I know Paul was writing to the church in Corinth.
And God is able out of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
But here Jesus is speaking to His students (disciples) and instructing them as to the end of this world, which we most certainly are in its last moments.
Jesus is describing the scenario of the last days.
It’s like when Jesus told his disciples that the Temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed and they are still turning every stone to find the gold.
Word in package which says “for that day shall not come to pass..” is not typical Greek word for physical Jerusalem based Temple (look for it yourself)!
SO, WHAT EVER IT IS IT IS NOT HOLY TEMPLE LIKE THAT ONE OF SOLOMON!
AND it is really pagan to even think that Jews really would worship lucifer that way, some think so, wich is sad, BECAUSE His Word NEVER EVER SAYS THAT THEY WOULD BUILD TEMPLE FOR SATAN, OR EVEN THAT THEY WOULD EVEN BUILD ANY KIND OF TEMPLE THEMSELVES!!!
JUST SOME “SELF PREACHERS” TEACH UN-BIBLICAL STUFF, BUT AS IS WRITTEN SO IT IS: “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.”.
May G-d bless you and guide you wherever and whenever you are.
GYOD, I don’t know how you read into my post above, that I claim the Dome of the Rock will be used as the Temple. My point has been consistant that the Temple will NOT be built over the spot the Dome is built on. But rather, North of this, and closer to the Eastern gate. And that the one peculiar rock slab recently noticed there North of the Dome, may have been what the Ark of the Covenant once sat upon. Again, placing the Temple other than over the rock peak.
The BTW I added about the material used to build the Dome was merely some interesting side info. DavWms
Hi Marianne,
The antichrist comes in peace.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090506/world/vatican_pope_holy_land
He will stand on ‘precipice’ as well.
Marianne;
If this man could make such a magniicent model of Herod’s Temple can you image the one they could build for the Third Temple.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1155962/Pensioner-spends-30-years-building-amazing-model-Herods-Temple—admits-wont-finish-it.html
Kittii
I believe there will be no physcial temple, Jesus is the temple and He is in us via the Holy the Lord said. The abomination is the apostasy that is running rampant in the vast majority of christianity. Elimination of the daily sacrifice comes from apostate teachings that say obeying gods commands is optional to our salvation. Jesus said if we wanted to follow up to DENY OURSELVES DAILY. When we are taught not to deny ourselves and that it doesnt matter, that is elimination/cessation of the daily sacrifice. Disobeying God desolates oneself and separates them from God. Jesus said only those that do the will of father in heaven shall enter the kingdom. THe devil has been lying from day one telling eve she would not die by disobeying God. Anti Christs are everywhere, they are in the pulpits of most churches deceiving the flock.
HI Pete,
You are right about the final “temple”….
Revelation 21:22 states there will be no “building” that is the final temple, since the Lord is our temple.
But, there is still the prophecy of Ezechiel’s temple, which we have not seen yet. I wonder when that will happen.
Another thought I had while I was reading your comment…..the daily sacrifice was to cease when the antichrist spirit entered the temple……..the church used to have communion daily…now it is a rare event to have this memorial of sacrifice in our own temples……..I see many churches only do it once a year now.
Hi Marianne,
What do you mean by communion everyday?
The passover is once a year, is it not?
How can the antichrist enter the Temple ( the earthly vessel of clay) when The Christ,
the Spirit of God dwells in there???
Hi Abigail.
I meant that the early church “broke bread” and had communion daily, as they added to the church. Passover is a yearly feast, but communion was daily. Now we do not see much of this anymore….we belong to Christ, but somehow, we are not doing this “in remembrance,” as he commanded us to do. Maybe we should do this daily again.
Sister Marianne, as you desire that we should have Holy Communion everyday – would definitely see it every morning on the alters in the Catholic Churches. As they have understood the value of Holy Mass (Holy Communion) for their everyday live. Why should we partake only once in the Passover Feast and starve the remaining days. Yes the Holy Sacrifice has to take place everyday…
It would do good read the biography of Padre Pio to understand the importance of the Body and Blood of Christ and their daily sacrifice on the alter.
MAY GOD BLESS.
hi Ashok
When people hear of the “daily sacrifices” being stopped by the Antichrist, they are thinking of animal sacrifices. They do not consider daily communion. So, that is a good point.
True the early church had ALL things in common. The early church shared bread and fish and wine etc. and their visions and the word of The Lord, and their encounters,
and their prayers, etc…
To remember The Lord daily is not a choir … how can one being a Christian forget to meditate and think on Him daily??
And all of His Commandments and instructions should be obeyed.
He is The Lord.
But Marianne please explain to me the answer to my last question.
How can the antichrist enter the Temple ( earthly vessel of clay) while Christ dwells
therein??
I ask this because the subject here is whether the antichrist needs a temple to stand in the Holy Place? Or not?
Many say that they are the temple of God, and that is true if the person bears The Holy Spirit.
How is it possible for the antichrist to possess such a person since that individual has the name Of God in them??
How can the antichrist stand IN the Holy Place if the Holy Place is a living person???
“The” antichrist-abomination of desolation compels with force, as many as will, to follow his rule which will contravene “a” rule of God; or “rules” of God in the minds/temple of men(commandment-s). Likely it’s his last attempt to force men to comply with his worship by robbing that which is due God
A spiritual desecration. A robbery of that which belongs to God; that being the minds of men
A word study on all involved within this issue reveals the most likely once the dots are connected.
Holy Place = us – God conscious
Image = idol
Forehead = frontal lobe – morals and ethics
The answer soon becomes obvious
p.s.
When The Lord said at Passover ‘do this in remembrance of Me’, He was specifically instructing His disciples to Remember that HE, The Lord, is the Passover Lamb of God.
Hi Abigail,
Perhaps read 2 Corinthians 6 for a further explanation. According to Paul it is possible to receive the Spirit of Grace in vain.
Therefore it is not always a simple “God is in you and you are saved scenario”
Paul then goes on to warn the Corinthians of the peril of mixing righteousness with unrighteousness, light and darkness, Christ and Belial (the devil), the temple with idolatry.
Then further commanding them to come out from among them.
It’s not a simple I have the Spirit and am therefore saved scenario as you would like to presume. It is this “as many are lead by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God”
The temple of God is defiled when we continue to walk in hard hearted disobedience.
At the end of the age there is a kingdom called Mystery Babylon. She influences the world with her idolatry, and yet God has to command His people to come out of her lest they share in her destruction. Rev 18. Mystery Babylons gift to the world is idolatry, and many of His people are to be found in her.
Being filled with the Spirit is only half the story. Are you willing to be lead by the Spirit? This is where the wheat and the chaff are separated.
And this is where it temple of the Lord is defiled.
Bless you, may we be lead down paths of righteousness in this day.
Tim
Hi Tim,
The very name Babylon (Babel Tower) = religious confusion says a lot.
As though there is another portal of entry to God.
Righteousness is obedience to The Lord.
Blasphemy is what is written of the mystery of Babylon.
In the holy scriptures it tells you what blasphemy is.
Mat 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
Jhn 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Rev 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
This is what blasphemy is.
1- Making yourself equal or above God.
2 – Being a man making thyself God.
Now The Lord was not blaspheming because He is God.
He also says that the blasphemy against The Father will be forgiven.
The blasphemy against the Son of God will be forgiven.
But the blasphemy against His Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
Not in this world nor in the world to come.
The temple of The Lord will NEVER be defiled.
It is written; ‘ No one will pluck you out of My Hand.’
I would never take The Holiness of The Lord lightly.
And The Lord never gives His Spirit to idolaters.
My salvation is sure and my name is written in The Lord’s book of Life.
I am in the world but not of it.
And my path is narrow because I do His Commandments.
Again I stress to you that The Lord’s Temple will never be defiled.
Hi Abigail,
I think Tim’s point is that someone who says they are a Christian, but accepts sin into their lives, is not, or is no longer, a true believer, and has rejected Christ in their spirits.
This is part of the great falling away in the church.
Christians ignore the commandments of God, and seek worldly or ungodly things instead.
They are therefore, “fallen away,” and have accepted the spirit of Antichrist into their own temples.
Hi Marianne,
Should we have to redefine what or who the antichrist is ?
There are four scriptures on this issue.
1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Which one of these speaks of the antichrist entering the Temple of
THE LORD?/
What is our own temple?
Maybe here the confusion is that we are speaking of two different temples?
I don’t beleive denying christ simple means Jesus is the not the son of God. Even the demons encountered acknowledged he was indeed the christ. Denying christ means not believing in his power to change lives. Paul told timothy 2 tim 3:2-5 that in the latter times people would be living in sin, having a form of godliness but deny ther power. That is the work of the spirit of antichrist who was already in the world in John’s days.
Isn’t denying that Jesus is The Son Of God, also denying
The Son, The Father and the Power of God?
Yes demons know and tremble!
Only the arrogance of man would be such a fool.
As for having a form of godliness and denying the power therein … we certainly have enough denominations and so called churches who are just that, then as today.
Sin is transgression against The Laws of The Most High.
amen sister, that is the truth.
HI Abigail
I think there are 2 levels of interpretation: physical and spiritual.
1. the 3rd temple, prophesied by Ezechiel, which is yet to be built….for the jews, the man of sin will appear here
2. our own temple, which is our soul, the man of sin can enter there also.
The ‘man of sin’ can enter into the soul of your own temple??
How can that be????
for the Jews, the man of sin is a real physical leader….who invades the 3rd temple…this man works for satan
for the christians….the man of sin might be a leader in the physical world, but the actual force behind him, who is Satan, enters the heart…..
He can therefore enter the heart ONLY
if that heart does NOT belong to God.
Like Judas Escariot whom Satan entered.
Hi Marianne,
Another question … do you know that, the Holy Commandments of The Lord written, by the Finger of The Lord on tablets of stone, were written on tablets taken from The Foundation Stone which lies beneath the Dome Of the Rock???
I never heard of that.
Hi Marianne,
Here is the link from the Temple Institute. You can view all that this Foundation Stone,
stands for. People can either believe or not believe.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/gallery_2.htm
Turn the pages on this site.
Rapture alert!!!
Jesus is on His Way!!!!
Hi Abigail,
It’s not about a spirit of satan indwelling the heart or soul of the believer. It’s all about to whom do you present yourselves slaves to obey. Read Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?
It’s not a mystery, you are free to be lead by the spirit of God or lead by the spirit of the world.
God does indwell the believer and He does seek to lead, but when the temple of God chooses to offer itself to worldly and ungodly pursuits, the spirit of Antichrist has authority over the temple.
I see how people are living in this day. In the West we bow before our idols all week and then on Sunday pay lip service to God. We idolize so many things in this world and seek to make it acceptable to God by renaming it Christian. Christian entertainment, Christian banking and investment, Christian retail stores, Christian music, Christian entertainment. It’s all just idolatry….It’s carnal, and worldly and we veil as though it’s a form of righteousness.
Now in many of our churches we refuse to teach the whole counsel of God, preferring to tell stories and encouraging messages, not supposing that God may seek to rebuke the ones He loves. We seek to see the ministry exalted above the need of the believer. We prefer the esteem of men above God. We prefer to be seen in the 5000 strong church than sitting amongst the poor of this world.
And on top of this we pray that God would bless us with more, more finance, more prosperity, more provision, better jobs, better standard of living.We bow before mammon, while the world is going to hell. we do not know any more when enough is enough.
This is what it means to have Antichrist sitting in the temple of God. The people have been deceived, satan has usurped the true worship which belongs to a Holy God and we all sit in our Christian churches pointing at the Jews saying “look satan is going to deceive them when he sits in their new Jewish temple”
To whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, to this one you belong….
Tim.
Dear Tim,
Firstly the word slave occurs only twice in the holy scriptures, once in singular form and once in plural form.
In the other 400 translations or so, they seem to like that word ‘slave’ a lot.
The law is very specific concerning servants and bond servants.
And I am a person who loves instruction to be precise.
Like it is written 1Cr 14:8
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
But that is another topic.
Now concerning scriptures from Paul to the Romans;
Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the HEART that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18
Being then made FREE from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
‘Yield’ is the verb here, implying will.
‘And the verb ‘obey’ implying an action.
A very important fact since God has given man the choice of life or death.
But God knows the heart.
The Lord speaks of this matter as well;
Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
My conclusion on this matter is thus:
The Lord is Truth!!!
If you are His sheep ….???
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
Jhn 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.
So the spirit of the antichrist CANNOT enter and DEFILE The Temple of The Lord!!
So you must remind yourself of this,
By their fruits you shall know them.
Simple, isn’t it?
And do not be so ready to use the word ‘we’, and the word ‘our church’ when you describe the Sunday hypocrites.
Because I am not of that fold.
I do not worship on Sunday!
I worship The Lord in Spirit and in Truth.
Because I would not worship in vain following the commandments of man.
this might sound crazy, but everyone has this talk of obama being antichrist. i dont personally believe this. my christian faith personally leads me to believe that obama will uncosiencly make a pathway for the antichrist. i believe that wen obama pulls all american troops out of iraq and such, then a man(probubly a polotician) from europe will enter the middle east. he will get on everyones good side, and lead then to believe he is messiah. this is wen they start rebuliding thier temple. the temple is gonna take 3 years or so to build. once this is don he will proclaim himself as god and want everyone elseto as well.. all around the world… if you donot proclaim his as god you will die right then and thier… if you do proclaim him as god you will live but will not enter the gates of heaven. my dad told me that if you start seeing this happen in the next few years.. stock up on food and whatever you can live underground with. take your family and run for the hills. and if this man or his followers do find you then let them take your life and die for jesus like he did you so you can live with him in an eternity of happieness. for sum reason i feel this is going to happen. can anyne tell me why with sum back up lol please and thankyou
also i heard this crazy joke story kind of thing that makes you thik… here it is… the only difference between heven and hell is this… both have a huge ginormous table with huge pots of stew down the middle of the table.. everyone has a seat on the table, everyone has a very very very long spoon stuck to thier arm.. the peole in hell are boe thin and starving becasue they are selfish and cant et thier spoon into thier own mouth.. the people in heaven are happy laughing and talking, nice and healthy because they are all feeding each other =]] isnt that cute?
Hi Geena
Yes, that is cute 🙂
I don’t recall Jesus ever critizing any true worship of him whether it be saturday or sunday. He himself rebuked the Pharisees who critizied him for “doing God’s work” on saturday. Teach them to obey everything I have comnanded you, he told them in mat 28 before he ascended to heaven. What did he command? Love the lord thy god with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus chunked it up to these two commandments. We the true brethren of Christ need to quit being nit picky on legal issues. We absolutely must obey, that is the gospel plain and simple, that is what real belief meant in the greek language. The professing church by and large is in apostasty, but indivual hearts is where the rubber meets the road. Satan will turn us into evil judges if we are not careful. None of us have all the light. Issues like the sabbath and what bible version are noise in the grand scheme of things. I am tired of hearing about these fleshly matters, the matters of the heart is what realy matters. Love God and Obey Him
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the insights. Out hearts are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and should only allow the holiest of experiences in it.
If we do this, there will be no Antichrist spirit in us.
Doctrinal interpretation comes and goes, but the pure heart beats on.
Hi Marianne ,
And blessed are the pure in heart… for they shall see God. Amen
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself
unspotted from the world.
This doctrine at the very least, should be encouraged.
Sad that many have itchy ears and deem obedience just plain too hard.
you have made such a wise and spiritual response here. I want to get to know who are or at least learn more from you.
Inspireprogress
I just write what the Lord leads me to write.
we all learn together here
Thanks Pete, good advice. I do fear that I’ve become overly critical, judgemental, nit picky. I’ll take it on board.
Abigail, I do hear what you are saying and I guess in some regards it’s a little like the enduring argument that one who is saved cannot lose their salvation.
In the same way, how can those who serve God turn aside to serve satan. And as you say how can the temple of God also become defiled by satan.
Perhaps in this age, in our western culture, many who confess Christ are not His nor ever were. I do not know, though I wish I did.
As one who teaches I prefer to warn men as Christ warned men, to flee from their unrighteouss deeds.
If I have comforted those who are in their sin and they perish in it, I will give an account as to the soul of that one.
I appreciate you prefer to have an assurance of your salvation, as one who cannot be snatched from His hand.
Personally I prefer to warn men as Paul warned men to work their salvation out with fear and trembling.
There has been enough comfort offered in this generation to those who are clearly not Christs’. I do not intend to be a part of that movement
This is a day in which the comfortable ought to be made uncomfortable and the uncomfortable, comforted.
As the Apostle spoke, let him who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall.
The way I see it, it really is pointless of Paul to make these type of comments if their is no risk to believers. And in this same context if we profess to be the Temple of the Holy Spirit, we better not defile it, for as Paul warned, God would destroy the one who defiles the temple.
If this teaching troubles you I am sorry for that, but it is better for us to warn men, who confess to be Christ’s. Warn them of their obligation and the great blessing that God has granted them, but at the same time, to whom much is given, much is expected.
Bless you.
Tim
Dear Tim,
Your teaching does not bother me.
Personally I blush easy. Shame for sins of the past, if someone brings them back to my remembrance, makes my blood rush to my face and tears fills my eyes.
I think there are levels of repentance and maybe not everyone expresses sincere regret or remorse. Again only The Lord knows the heart!
And one day it will be shown to us as well.
We do live in a most wicked and permissive society.
And even those who govern are guilty of much lawlessness.
It is not because of my righteousness but rather because of wickedness around me that I can truly say that I am filled with Light.
You do well to warn people and urge them to REPENT before God.
Thank you my friend.
What sits on the temple, presuming to be God? Well look what is built there.
Hi Cornishevenagelist,
you are right. the mosque has been there for centuries.
Hi Billy and Marianne,
Yes the dome of the Rock , ABOVE the Rock was completed ??? 691 A.D.
And by 705 A.D. the other mosque Al Aksa covered the Temple Mount.
What is and should be of interest to us Christians is the time period of this monstrosity since if you look at the prophesy in Daniel ‘ concerning the abomination
of desolation’ this fits perfectly like a glove.
I am posting a link here that speaks of this time period.
Although I personally think that it points more to 2,009 A.D. than to 2,006 A.d.
But if 2,006 is correct then we are already half way through the tribulation, leaving only 3 1/2 years for ALL prophesy to be accomplished.
Here is this link:
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2006/ear825.htm
Do not be quick to dismiss this I pray!!
Another point to consider is this…’Who is the desolate???’
Answer ‘Is it not the children of Agar??’
Many are the children of the desolate.
Marianne;
How can there not be a Third Temple when there is so much preparation already for it and so many people want it?
Only God knows.
Kittii
HI Kitti,
Well, the temple of Ezechiel has not been built yet. Maybe this is the time.
Kitti, first, we have to acknowledge that much Bible revelation won’t be understood til its time. In this, many have decided it is no longer about the Jews, but only about the Bride, Christians. This is called, “the replacement theory.” They have ignored that God said He would never forget His people, and at that time, He was talking about Israel.
They ignore that there is a 70th week of Daniel, and that the Jews are returning to their land, just as God said they would. And that the time of the gentiles would come to an end, and then the 7 year period introducing the anti-christ would come about.
Even with the obvious happening before their eyes, they refuse to reconsider that again, the Jews will be God’s focus for the last 7 years. I think you already know this, but you asked the question that many others may be wondering about. DavWms
Mr. Williams;
I couldn’t agree more. We’re coming to that climax in history. Dr. Stuart Dauerman explains it in this video series:
“The Fullness of Israel”
Thanks for feedback.
Kittii
The Love Of God … who can measure it??
Thank you Kitti for posting this footage.
Truth upon your lips is a shield.
Anointed with oil is the shield of MERCY.
Children of Promise
“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise”.
{Galatians 4 v 28}.
When God looks at this old world, He no longer looks upon it like He did in the days before His only Son was crucified at Calvary.
For Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary gave birth to the new covenant or testament, which He wrote on the hearts of men who accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour.
No longer does He see tribes and races of people as such, for now because of Christ’s sacrifice He sees only the children of promise and the children of the bound.
Let me explain, God states clearly in scripture that the children of God are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, regardless of race or gender,
they are the children of God, yes the children of promise.
You see it is written, “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to promise”, {Galatians 3 v 29}.
Abraham had two sons, one by a bondwoman called Agar, and another by a freewoman called Sarah, as it is written,
now these two sons represents the two covenants.
The first son Ishmael of the bondwoman represented Jerusalem, which is now in bondage, which also represents the old covenant,
but the freewoman’s son Isaac represents the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the new covenant.
All God’s people are one in Christ Jesus, who are under the new covenant.
Under this covenant there is no longer Jew, Gentile, slave or free, men or women, for we are all one in Christ. “For ye are all the children of promise by faith in Christ Jesus”,
{Galatians
3 v 26}.
Now God’s plan for the people of Israel is the same plan which He is using for the whole world,
and that is that we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour.
There is no other plan for salvation, only through Jesus.
Who was crucified for our sins and rose again for our justification, and who is alive forever more.
Praise be the wonderful name of Jesus. As it is written, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”, {Acts 4 v 12}.
As Isaac was, so are we the children of promise, no matter what nation we are from, God considers us all equal and precious in His sight.
So precious are we that He sacrificed His only Son for each and everyone of us.
So, let us all stand together as, the children of promise.
I would like to state that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and many more in Israel are likened unto an olive tree which also represents the children of promise.
We who believe are grafted into that tree, and so we become one with them, and are known as the true Israel of today.
Now today there are still people in Israel who are chosen by God according to election of grace who will be grafted back into the olive tree, which represents the children of promise.
We must pray for them, that they will see Jesus, for it is written, “ There shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins”, {Romans 11 v 26 & 27}
So dear saints, let us always pray and standby Israel, for I believe that there are many yet to come to know Jesus as their true Messiah.
God bless Israel.
I couldn’t resist … did you mean abomination or Obamanation
Marianne:
Just another video on the preparation of the Third Temple. Just another indication that they have every intention of building a Third Temple when the time is right.
The Golden Crown of the High Priest: The Tzitz
Rabbi Chaim Richman and Rabbi Yehuda Click of The Temple Mount Institute: http://www.templeinstitute.org/
Kittii
Marianne:
Just another video on the preparation of the Third Temple. Just another indication that they have every intention of building a Third Temple when the time is right.
The Golden Crown of the High Priest: The Tzitz
Rabbi Chaim Richman and Rabbi Yehuda Click of The Temple Mount Institute: http://www.templeinstitute.org/
Kittii
Marianne;
I haven’t blogged lately, because I’ve been studying the rapture on a web page from your web site called http://www.therapturesolution.com. Someone just sent me a YOU TUBE on the preparation for the rebuilding of the 3rd temple alter. Are we getting close or what?
This is so exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kittii
hi kitti
I saw that video. They are poured something that looks like tar on some rocks. Not sure how to interpret this. It would be nice to see the finished product.
Most Gentile Christians fail to understand that the “Final Week” or “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” also known as the Tribulation is a time alloted to the children of Israel to fulfill all obligations.
The Lord God makes this clear through the Prophet Daniel, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and they holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to annoint the most Holy”, Daniel 9:24. What many within the Church today fail to understand is that the Lord God still has unfinished work with Israel and will as in the Days of Old send Prophets among them and guide them into the path of righteousness that their eyes along with their hearts will be opened to receive the Lord and Messiah and King. The Temple will again be built and the sacrifice restored and Israel will again call upon the name of the Lord God. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 will restore this order in preparation for the coming King Yeshua that he might be annointed and crowned. It is the duty of the Priest and/or Prophet to annoint the head and to crown the King of Israel. Thus as it was in the beginning so must it be in the end to fulfill all things. The Crown of Yeshua however is to be a Three-Tier Crown as High Priest, Prophet, and King over all the Earth and the Heavens. The Temple must again be built, the levitical and Kohanim must again be reestablished, sacrifices offered, that all prophecy might be fulfilled and our Moshiach Yeshua sitting upon the Throne of David.
What we see now is the preparation for these things and soon the Battle of Gog and Magog will pave the way for the rebuilding of the Temple. The Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque will be removed by a great earthquake during this battle clearing the Temple Mount. Israel will bury these invaders for 7 months to cleanse the land in preparation for the foundation of the Temple to be laid in it’s proper place. The Lord God will again visit his people in the form of Two Prophets and begin the consumation of the Final Week or 7 years.
Rodney,
The battle of Gog and Magog will pave the way for the rebulding of the Temple. The Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque will be removed by a great earthquake during the battle clearing the Temple Mount.
That’s exactly what I think! Ez. 38 is when the new temple will be rebuilt!..but what if the abomination, the Dome, is the very thing that calls out day to day from the temple mount that he, Allah, is God, and once removed, the new temple can be built without the anti-christ showing up again for a thousand years?
I believe that the two witnesses in Rev. 11 are symbolic of the Jewish and Christian witnesses who have carried the gospel around the world for over 2000 years — the 2 olives and the 2 candlesticks. Four large groups make for quite a crowd.
In Rev. 11 it says to leave out the courtyard when measuring the temple. That is where the Dome is, in the old courtyard where gentiles freely congregate.
In the NIV in Daniel 9:27 it says that the abomination will be set up on a “wing” of the temple. The only wings on a rectangle are at its edges. The Dome is built at the edge of the old temple’s foundation.
Finally, if we understand the final 7 as an over-arching completion of the entire prophecy, the final 7 would have begun during Daniel’s day when their sacrifices were taken away, and end in this generation when the Jews return to their own land — this generation.
It seems to me Jesus is going to be able to accomplish all fulfillment of prophecy without rebuilding a temple until after he returns. From what I understnad, that is what the Jews are planning on too.
GOOGLE BLOODHIVE… MY SCHPIN ON THE MATTER IS THAT A TYPE OF ANTICHRIST HAS ALREADY DEFILED THE TEMPLE WITH PIGS BLOOD, THE BIBLE SAYS THAT WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF G-D. AND THAT THE KINGDOM OF G-D IS WITHIN US. SO FROM MY PRESPECTIVE THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST WILL TRY TO DEFILE THE TEMPLE OF G-D WITH SWINE FLU. WE KNOW THAT IN THE SCRIPTURES BLOOD IS FORBIDDEN TO CONSUME. BECAUSE DISEASES ARE CARRIED IN THE BLOOD. SO IT IS A TYPE OF DEFILEMENT FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST TO BE TAINTED WITH AN UNCLEAN ANIMAL. AND YES THE ANTICHRIST WILL DEFILE ALSO THE THIRD TEMPLE…
hi bloodhive,
True, on any level, pig blood or pig products are not kosher.
The vaccine would have to be produced in a different animal to create antibodies against pig. So it would actually be a different animal product that they would inject.
example: sheep anti- pig
It will actually be sheep plasma that is in the vaccine.
yes, but who let the dogs out? only swine can infect other swine! the only way people can be infected with swine flu, if it is altered in a lab. cdc lab
Something to consider ?
From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the1335 days.
The 1335 days
The Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount was completed in 689 and the Iranian Revolution 1979
689 + 1290 years = 1979 + 45 years = 2024 – time, times and half a time = 2021
When our Lord Jesus was nailed to the cross that was the end of the daily sacrifice. And the abomination that causes desolation is The Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem completed 689 A.D.
When you start your calculation at 689 at the completion of the abomination, this will take you to 1979 the Iranian Revolution 1 February 1979 Revolutionary forces under Khomeini seize power. Khomeini became absolute ruler over Iran.
When the time, times and half a time of distress starts on August 2021 and continues three and a half years until February 2024.When the power of the holy people has been finally broken all these things will be completed.
hi stephen
What would Iran have to do with the Temple Mount?
I have read different start dates for the Dome of the Rock. Instead of your date 689, I found one which says 683.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:_Xq6l0668AoJ:www.bible-history.com/links.php%3Fcat%3D4%26sub%3D265%26cat_name%3DArchaeology%26subcat_name%3DJerusalem+dome+of+rock+683+bible+history+online&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
683
+1290
1973 = year of Yom Kippur war
683
+1335
2018 time of blessing
2018 – 7 = 2011 start of trouble?
Since the temple was destroyed early in the CE, I believe the Word teaches that His temple is His body, not in a place made by the hands of men.I could cite verses but if you’re interested look them up. A very intensive study of endtimes that I found very comprehensive and biblical based is “Hidden Manna for the End Times” and it’s available free thru http://www.unleavenedbreadpublishing.org/
Another ebook there, “Sovereign God” was also very much appreciated.
Miriam Franklin’s site, has a good warning from the late, Corrie Ten Boom as well, http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/prepared-for-the-coming-tribulation/
As of March 16th, 2010-Jerusalem commences the building of the Third Temple!
Sherry Vance (19 Feb 2010)
“It Had To Start Sometime! When?”
——————————————————————————–
I am just going to send this letter I recently wrote to someone asking me questions. It’s sort of an overall view of the whole timeline (summarized.) I’d like you to read it and then see what you think. Maybe it will give someone a different perspective and understanding.
Unbeknownst to most people, the time of Jacob’s Trouble entailed THREE WEEKS, with the last Week, the 70th Week (7 years) being known as “The Time of Jacob’s Trouble from which Jacob shall be saved out of.”….(with the coming of the Messiah – or, better known as the Second Coming of Christ.)
The point is, Jacob’s Trouble had to start “sometime.” How would you know when it started? You would know when the issue of the trouble with Jacob/Israel became the world-wide focus with “Jerusalem becoming a cup of trembling to the world.” Isn’t that where we are now? First was the birth of Israel (born in a day) in 1948. When Israel was 19 (following the analogy of the first time Israel became a nation under Moses) the age of 19 meant MATURITY – and it was also the age of NATIONAL SERVICE in Israel. It was also determined that those who were under 20 years old would be the only ones to GO INTO THE PROMISED LAND, with the rest of the people having to die off during the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness because of their rebellion against God. In other words, there would be a generation who would “pass away” and not go into the promised land which was covenanted to them by God Himself.
Well, not surprisingly, within one month of when Israel was about to turn 20 years old, the 1967 Six Day War occurred and Israel re-unified Jerusalem!!!! First time in 2,000 years Jerusalem came under the sovereignty of the Jews. The FIG TREE had sprouted (1948) came of age/matured at 19-20 yrs, old, took national responsibility and reunified Jerusalem, their Eternal Capital!!!! Effectively, this marked the BEGINNING OF THE GENERATION THAT WOULD NOT PASS AWAY BUT WOULD SEE ALL THINGS FULFILLED!
Coming right down the timeline…….
Now, when would Jacob’s Trouble begin? Well, there has always been trouble for Israel – constant wars which they did not initiate, but which God used to continually increase their land mass (think pre- 48 & 67 borders). However, when the FOCUS came to rest on JERUSALEM, then we should have known it was the beginning of the end. Israel had been content to let Jordan remain in charge of Jerusalem. But during the 1967 war Jordan sided with her Arab brothers and Israel was forced to take Jerusalem back in defense. However, General Moshe Dyan was responsible for GIVING BACK THE TEMPLE MOUNT – for two reasons actually. One he was trying to show a gesture of “good will” (yuck, puke) and two, Moshe Dyan was not a biblical or religious person. He didn’t care about any of the prophecies concerning the Temple Mount or the Temple, etc. For that reason, meaning the reason of GIVING BACK THE TEMPLE MOUNT, God caused this LAST generation to again “wander in the wilderness” for another 40 years! If you doubt that, than take note that in the year 2007 (40 years) the 70th Week of Daniel began on Rosh HaShannah! That meant Israel’s 2nd set of 40 years had ended and something spectacular was about to begin! It would now be all about ISRAEL! It was the Sabbatical Year of 2007 – the beginning of the last week of Jacob’s Trouble FROM WHICH JACOB/ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF!……in other words, the 70th Week of Daniel began on Rosh HaShannah, Sept. 13, 2007.
But I’m getting ahead of myself. How would anybody know when the Three Weeks of Jacob’s Trouble began? Answer> when the focus of the world turned to Jerusalem and the issue of Israel’s right to exist in her land covenanted to her by God came into direct view – and opposition to world opinion. When did that happen?
With the Oslo Accords in 1993. It was the first time the Arab nations “acknowledged Israel’s right to exist” – but not really. Their Charter still called for (and still does) the annihilation of Israel. The reason for the Oslo Accord was actually the Arabs trying to negotiate to get their Palestinian State. (This had actually been offered to them back in 1947, before the State of Israel was voted on by the UN. They turned it down. They wanted it ALL….but that’s no different than later when Arafat turned down 95% of the West Bank at the Wye Agreement.) Oh well.
The Oslo Accords were signed ON Rosh HaShannah 1993…..a 7 year agreement, during which time multiple upon multiple meetings were attended to try to bring about a negotiated agreement to Palestinian Statehood. The analogy of this to the historical first week of Jacob’s Trouble was that Jacob DESIRED Rachel and agreed to work for 7 years for her. In 1993, Israel DESIRED PEACE and agreed in the Oslo Accord to work 7 years toward that end.
The Second Week of Jacob’s Trouble began on Rosh HaShannah 2000 with the Palestinian Uprising, better known as the Intifada. Do you recall that Ariel Sharon went up on the Temple Mount and there were riots? Do you recall the next 7 years of bus bombings, suicide bombers, Israel under seige with terrorists? I was there. I was in Israel at least once or twice every year during that time. I SAW it. I was there and saw the barricaded public places, CNN set up on every corner in order not to miss yet another bombing, I saw every building, restaurant, grocery store, McDonald’s for heaven’s sake!, armed with security guards and check points in and out of malls and intersections, etc. The Sbarro’s Pizza on Ben Yehuda Street was bombed shortly after I left – I had just eaten pizza there! This was also the time when Israel started building The Fence….which was actually a literal (electronic) fence on 95% of the borders with electronic WALLS (like along the highways separating roadways from residential areas) along the other 5% of land running between Arab villages and Israeli villages to keep the Arab snipers from shooting into the Israeli towns and killing passersby traveling on the roads. (I was with a group of Jews one day visiting soldiers at a checkpoint opposite Tulkarem across from Netanya (where the Passover massacre occurred.) We were handing out candy & snacks to the soldiers while Arab snipers were shooting right then at the Wall from inside Tulkarem!…..(and no, I didn’t tell my husband when I called home that night!….but he did call me a few days later when he’d heard about another bus bombing in Jerusalem knowing I was there and that I sometimes took the bus.)
In the historical analogy, Jacob still desired Rachel and willingly kept working for her, but it was a miserable second set of 7 years which he was surely somewhat disgruntled about, wouldn’t you think? Well, with the fence up, much of terror was thwarted. There was no real peace as 2006 ended, but Israel had settled into a kind of peace which they themselves had worked toward in building the fence. The real issue, though, was Israel had backed off the politic negotiations for the most part. No progress was seen and none seemed that important to pursue in light of the internal problems between Fatah and Hamas. WHO was Israel supposed to be dealing with anyway, Hamas, the terrorist organization which had been “democratically elected”? It was, still is, a struggle between the Arabs themselves as to who will be the spokesman or negotiator with the ‘evil Zionist occupiers’! And so the Second Week of Jacob’s Trouble ended. There were no more negotiations, no other “contract” between Israel and the Arabs….just like Laban & Jacob.
The Third Week of Jacob’s Trouble began on Rosh HaShannah 2007 – a Sabbatical Year in the cycles of 7. It began relatively quiet. Not much seemed to be happening. WHY? Back to the analogy>>> In the first year of the third week, Jacob had already received Rachel. Jacob was no longer working for Laban….he had fulfilled his contract. He had worked for 14 years to get Rachel and now there was finally no more “contract” to labor under. But Jacob remained in Laban’s household for another year (which is that year which constitutes the 21 years of the three weeks since Jacob stated he’d been with Laban (under contract) for 20 years), however he was not under any working contract obligation. In that first year of the Third Week we call the Honeymoon Year, Rachel conceived and bore Joseph. Jacob wanted to “go back to his country then and asked Laban’s permission. Laban entreated Jacob to STAY because as long as Jacob was in his household, Laban was “blessed” (materially.) So Jacob agreed to stay on with Laban if he could “increase Laban’s flocks and herds and build his own inheritance from them.” Jacob worked another 6 years toward this end before finally leaving:
(7 yr. contract (Leah) + 7 yr. contract (Rachel) + 1 year in Laban’s household yet no contract + 6 yr. laboring for inheritance/wages/economics = 21 years…..in other words, Israel worked under the lied-to-contract of the Oslo Accords from 1993-2000 and didn’t get the desire of his heart – Peace. Israel labored long and hard during the next 7 years laboring again for Peace while trying to stay alive, although they still didn’t get real peace…..it did quiet down thanks to the Fence.
Now to plug the analogy into these present days >> In 2007, a Sabbatical Year, the start of the 70th Week, Third Week of Jacob’s Trouble, the first year (2007-2008) was quiet, just as it was for Rachel & Jacob due to his not having to labor under contract to Laban. But at the very beginning of the second year of the Third Week/70th Week ON ROSH HaSHANNAH 2008, we experienced a global ECONOMIC meltdown – the stock market closed at 777.68 !!! Did the three sevens get your attention? The analogy is a perfect fit – God is showing something here!!!!!! Three Sevens!!!!! The attention turned to ECONOMICS right on schedule….with SIX YEARS TO GO!!!!
This is the analogy of the Three Weeks of Jacob’s Trouble. With what you know now and what the current situation is, and who is now in charge, and with all the hindsight plugged into Israel as the Fig Tree, her birth, her growth, her national service and responsibility of reunifying Jerusalem and the start of the generation which would not pass away (as the former generation did) but will go into the Promised Land/Kingdom on Earth, HOW CAN ANYBODY NOT BELEIVE WE ARE WHERE WE ARE!!!!????
The reason we are where we are, is because this SET TIME had to start “someplace” and we see now when it did. I will tell you, Phil Rogers and I have had this timeline since way back in 2001. But we didn’t have complete understanding back then. We believed that the Second Coming would be in 2007 – not in 2014! Why? Well, we knew back in 2000 that Israel’s Rabbis had declared the ending of 6,000 years/man’s 6 days according to the Jewish calendar. If the 6th day (1,000 years for a day) was ended, it meant the 7th day had begun. Now understand that God gave man dominion over the earth (usurped by satan, of course, in the Garden) for 6,000 years, or 6 days. When the 7th Day came around it would be GOD’S DAY!….the SABBATH DAY.
It stands to reason, if the 6th day has ended, the 7th day has begun. What would happen in the 7th Day? Well, the Jewish day begins at sundown…..the evening and the morning were the first day, etc……but on the 7th day, there is no such designation. There is no mention of evening nor morning. That means the Lord’s Day, the 7th Day goes on for as long as the Lord wants it to go on. Since the 6th day ended and the 7th day began, the Lord has now taken over…..what has He taken over? HIS PLAN TO BRING ALL OF HIS CREATION AND HIS PEOPLE TO REDEMPTION! Didn’t He say He will raise us up in the Third Day? This is the Third Day….it’s been 2 days (2,000 years) since Jesus was here. He has, in all this time, been building His Church/His Temple. Now it’s time to redeem His people Israel.
The 7th Day began in 2000…….world attention started turning toward ISRAEL……Jerusalem came to the table in the form of a cup of trembling. Jacob began ‘wrestling’ with more and more ‘trouble’ but he is prevailing, hanging on until he gets his blessing.
The 70th Week/Time of Jacob’s Trouble began in 2007. In the years that commenced on Rosh HaShannah 2007, we have seen the focus of the world turn to Israel, we have seen the focus on economics, we have seen the man-of-sin elected, we have even seen his turning away from Israel as our ally in the Middle East (remember > I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you saith the Lord)…..and in only 13 months the world will be at the MID-POINT of the 70th Week and the start of the time of great tribulation! We have about 11 months to go before we are swept off the scene before satan is cast out of Heaven. People are not seeing this. Most people sense something troubling and foreboding, but they don’t know why.
Anyway, Phil and I didn’t understand that 2000 to 2007 was NOT the 70th Week as we thought it was because we were in the 7th day. Hindsight shows us where we went wrong. But the timeline itself was NOT wrong! It is still on schedule! At the end of the last week/Third Week/70th Week, the Lord will return…..in a Sabbatical Year…….with the following year being the Year of Jubliee – when all of His people are back in the land allotted for each Tribe. Creation will be redeemed, His people will be redeemed and the Kingdom will commence.
Some people have been speculating that the 70th Week may somehow be “split”, but I don’t believe the 70th Week will be split in any way. Here’s proof of why:
The 70th Week is a period of 7 years….seven regular years like any other.
The reason the Week cannot be “separated” is this:
The events described in Revelation follow an exact timetable as Daniel set forth. There is mention of 1335 days, 1290 days, 1260 days, 42 months. Now we don’t know (at first reading of Daniel or Revelation) when these days BEGIN. But if we know the timeline based on historical type and analogy (Jacob’s Three Weeks of Trouble) which is aligned to the 1993-2000-2007 scenario, then we can determine not only that we are IN the 70th Week, but we can also know the time that Christ Jesus will be crowned King of Kings because He will return and be crowned on the Feast of Trumpets at the end of the 70th Week. When is this? Sept. 25, 2014.
So now we have a known date based on Jacob’s Trouble and the Return of the Messiah saving Jacob out of it. NOW we can know how to utilize the counting till the 1335th day —- blessed is he who comes to it!!! Count backwards FROM the crowning of Jesus the Messiah on the Feast of Trumpets/Rosh HaShannah Sept. 25, 2014…….we come to Jan. 2011….the time of the Resurrection/Rapture! We can also count backwards FROM Feast of Trumpets to the 1290th Day – the day of the abomination that maketh desolate. You will see that there are 45 days between the Resurrection/Rapture and the abomination. Forty Five days in which satan has been cast to Earth, God has granted him 42 months to “continue”, the antichrist receives his head wound, satan empowers the antichrist, antichrist “appears” to resurrect from the dead, he commits the abomination, declaring himself god and demanding worship.
This occurs at the MID-POINT of the 70th Week. Meanwhile, God has put His hand of protection upon the Remnant of His people (who are still unbelieving Jews) and they have fled into the wilderness where God will keep them for the 42 months. These people are “hands off” to satan. He is enraged….so he goes after the remnant of the seed of the woman – in other words, Christ’s “seed” – those who become believers during this time. This will continue for 42 months. At the end of the 1260 days/42 months, Jesus Christ RETURNS! It isn’t yet the end of the 70th Week, however. There is an extra month of Adar in 2014. Those extra 30 days before the ending of the 70th Week will be the time that Jesus slays His enemies at Armageddon. He will stand on the Mt. of Olives which will split and the Temple Mount topography will be changed, raised up to accommodate the future Ezekiel’s Millennial Temple. A river of fresh water will spring from the Mt. of Olives earthquake and run down to the Dead Sea where the waters will be healed. Jesus will go into Bozra and lead out the Remnant, who, when they see Him, will recognize Him and mourn for Him whom they pierced. They will believe and be redeemed. The Sanhedrin, which everybody by now knows have re-convened in preparation for declaring “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (as Jesus prophesied), will ANNOINT Him. He will be crowned on Rosh HaShannah, coronation day of Israel’s kings and will fulfill the first of the Fall Feasts, Feast of Trumpets on Sept. 25, 2014.
Now, tell me how this 70th Week can be divided or split in any way? It will take ALL of it to accomplish God’s Plan of Redemption for the world and for His people Israel.
You know, this is probably the third, fourth, fifth time (I’ve lost count) that I’ve presented Jacob’s Trouble. The information has not changed, only the format in accordance with what someone asked about or speculated over. I’ve hoped that by re-writing it several different ways, I might reach someone who heretofore didn’t quite understand the way I previously wrote it. I welcome any questions.
Shalom, Sherry Vance
lyndsey
The book of daniel says Jacob’s trouble is 3 1/2 years…..or a time, times and half a time….it says nothing about 3 weeks. Revelation confirms this with 42 months, or 1260 days.
I do not see any evidence that the life of Jacob and how he got married is related to the last days.
if 3 weeks, why not 4 weeks or 5 weeks, if that does not work out?
see what I mean?
Hey Marianne,
I only copied the above from this link:
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2010/sherryv219.htm
I was trying to find where Jersualem had declared it officially Jacobs trouble…I remember Abigail I believe had posted it on here somewhere that Jerusalem had made it official…..I came upon the above by accident and thought it fit in to what everyone else is posting here…and wanted to know what everyone thought about it…it was written by Sherry Vance.
hi lyndsey
I was just wondering about the 3 weeks for Jacob’s trouble…where did she get that?
Otherwise, I think we are close to the time when most people will recognize jacob’s trouble, just from the events taking place.
Have a great weekend.
You too! I;ll still be here…LOVE this site! 🙂
Hey Marianne,
I am not good at math and when I saw this site I thought you could “interpret” in laymans terms what it all means…It also had to do with what everyone is debating about and thought it would add to the conversation…:)
Now, I did see the correlation with Jacob and Rachel. This one I understood. The way I understood it, is that Israel’s fight/work for peace to gain Jerusalem is Jacob’s fight/work for marriage to Rachel. As you know , there is alot of symbolism thruout the scriptures in regards to dates, numbers etc…40 days and 40 nights….3 days….6 days the earth was created and then on the 7th He rested….Now what throws me off is when the scriptures say “hour” and then others intrepret that to mean a “day”; or a “week” actually means a year or something else, I don’t know….With Daniel’s 70 weeks I am totally lost….
I just read this again and noticed that she put Jesus as being crowned on Sept 25, 2014…around the same time and on a Holy Day that we have a lunar eclipse…”When checking the schedule for solar eclipses, Biltz found two – one on the first day of the Hebrew year and the next on the high holy day of Rosh Hashanah, the first day of the seventh Hebrew month. Both of these take place in the 2014-2015 year.”
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=63076
And…”Biltz was intrigued with the statement in the Scriptures that connect the second coming of the Messiah with “signs in the heavens,” particularly the signs that “the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood” before the return of Christ.
He went on the internet, to the U.S. Government NASA website to see if there were any significant eclipses of the sun and moon during the next few years. To his surprise, he discovered four lunar eclipses in the Sabbatical year 2014/2015, and was intrigued by the fact that they occurred on God’s annual Holy Days!”http://www.triumphpro.com/blood-red-lunar-eclipses-and-solar-eclipses.htm
For all my new “blog” friends….
What about the Western wall? Isn’t this their most Holy Site at present?
yes it is. But the wall is just the wall…they want and need a temple….the one predicted by Ezechiel.
Hi, Marianne and guests,
I’ve been enjoying reading this string. Here’s an interesting article stating that the “wing” of the Temple indicates a perimeter or fringe area of some kind, which might be the Western Wall. See what you think. http://www.tribwatch.com/corner.htm
hi Marylou
I can see that as possible. The western wall is all that is left of the holy place.
The jews perform mitvahs (prayers) instead of animal sacrifices there, since there is no actual temple. Causing the sacrifices to cease might also mean to cause the prayers to cease, which are sacrifices of prayer.
This could happen by the division of the city, and taking this place away from the Jews. The temple mount is already in the hands of the muslims. Giving them this portion would definitely be seen as an abomination by the Jews.
Kitti,
“”For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
“For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for YOUR sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained MERCY through their unbelief:
“Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11
It’s a shame the embedding was disabled by request. This is an excellent video. Go to You tube to see it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUvSqY3po24
Its called “The 911 Stargate”
Chris;
Thanks for the Bible verse. I can’t write so I post videos and Bible Verses. I too believe “All Israel will be saved”. I think I’ve posted enough videos on 9/11. I’m beating a dead horse. I like Music. Here’s one on “The Mashiach”. I’m discovering these Hassids have Rhythm. That’s new to me. Enjoy!
Thanks Kitty.
I enjoyed that so much.
What a day it’s going to be.
Here’s another good one.
Marianne;
What does Anachnu Ma’aminim mean?
“We are believers…..”
I am a Christian and a friend of Israel. In my pastorate I have preached hundreds of messages from the Old Testament Bible. Jews and Christians have learned great spiritual lessons from our Fathers in faith.
Israel will suffer in a 3rd World War, but the land of Israel will never be evaporated with something nuclear, because
JES S is going to set up H S theocratic Kingdom of 1,000 years on the earth as documented in Zechariah 14:9 & 16-17 and in Revelation 20:1-7. Six times in seven verses J HOVAH L RD will rule over the entire earth, praise be to G D. Our SAVI R rules in Heaven and will bring about H S perfect will and the conclusion of history with the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15] at which JES S [John 5:22b] will judge all evil persons since Adam in the Garden until the end of human history.
JES S the true MES IAH is coming soon in the clouds [I Thessalonians 4:13-18] to receive all who believe in H S atonement on the Cross and its application or ministration of his saving work because of our faith in H M [John 3:16].
JEHOV H-NISSI [Exodus 17:15 & Psalm 4:6].
Rev. Dr. Berrian, Th.D. & Ph.D.
http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/index.php?title=The_Re-established_Jewish_Sanhedrin
http://us2.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/15166
Transcript of the interview:
MR. ADNAN OKTAR’S INTERVIEW BY JOEL RICHARDSON (22 June 2009)
JOEL RICHARDSON: Let’s begin if you could. Share with us some of the most essential elements of what you believe with regards to the Mahdi.
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes. Hazrat Mahdi (as) is a person who will appear before the coming of the Prophet Jesus, who will unite Muslims in the Islamic world, whose aim is love, who will take affection and compassion as basis, who seeks to eradicate all weapons from the world, who will disarm the world, who will eliminate all weapons from the world and build peace and brotherhood. But false Mahdis and false Messiahs will come before Hazrat Mahdi (as). That also appears in the Bible. We are told that a false Muslim leader will appear and that false prophets will emerge. This also takes place in the hadith as well. These false prophets and messiahs have appeared to date. But now is the time of the real Mahdi (as), we can see all the portents of the true Mahdi (as) now. The greatest characteristic of the true Mahdi (as) is that he will take love, affection and brotherhood as basis. For instance in one account it says: “Hazrat Mahdi (as) will be so compassionate that in his time neither the sleeper will be woken nor will anyone’s nose be made to bleed.” Hazrat Mahdi (as) will perform such great and important services that it is said in accounts that not only people will be delighted with his rule, but also will all the creatures of the earth and sky. Accounts say that in the same way that the people of the earth and sky will be pleased with him, so will the birds in the air, wild animals in the forests and even the fish in the sea. In his, Hazrat Mahdi’s (as) time, the wolf and the sheep will graze together, snakes will not hurt children, and a man will sow one handful but reap 700 handfuls. El-Kavlu’l Muhtasar Fi Alamet-il Mehdiyy-il Muntazar. This is an entirely trustworthy book of hadith. Insha’Allah, in the time of the Mahdi (as) the world will be disarmed for the very first time and a true climate of peace will emerge.
For instance the Sünen-i İbn-i Mace is a highly reliable book of hadith. A trustworthy book of hadith. Look, it states this quite openly. “The people of war will abandon their burdens, their arms and their tools in the time of the Mahdi (as).” The Sünen-i Ibn-i Mace. Doomsday, the Hereafter and the Portents of the End Times; the people of war will abandon all their weapons and equipment. Imam-i Sharani. In Death, Doomsday and the Hereafter, the Portents of the End Times it states: “The Mahdi (as) will eliminate enmity and hatred. The world will be filled with peace like a bowl with water. Religious unity will be born, and none but Allah will be worshiped. War will abandon its burden.” All kinds of weapons, tanks, planes and bombs will be eliminated. The Sünen-i Ibn-i Mace, pages 331-335. But the false Mahdis and Messiahs who come before him will ground themselves in bloodshed, destruction and bombing. But this will not apply to the true Mahdi. He will offer a world that has been disarmed and is full of love and peace.
There is a verse in the Holy Qur’an that emphasizes this. Verse 46 of Surat al-Ankabut says, “Only argue with the people of the Book” meaning Christians and Jews “in the kindest way.” Meaning we must tell them things with verbal descriptions, with love and affection. “Saying, ‘We have iman in what has been sent down to us’.” In other words, we believe in the Qur’an that has been sent down to us, but we also believe in the Bible and in the Old Testament that has been sent to you. “Our God and your God are one.“ Allah we believe in and Allah you believe in is the same. He is One and Only. “And we submit to Him.” The Qur’an forbids war and bloodshed against the people of the Book. Look, it is been made quite clear – “Only argue with the people of the Book in the kindest way.” Allah says there can be no armed struggle against them. Not by bloodshed, but convincing them with love, affection and science and only as much as it could be. If they are not convinced, that must also be respected. There are verses of the Qur’an that states “Your religion for you, our religion for us.” There is no compulsion in Islam. There is a verse to that effect. There is a crystal clear pronouncement in the Qur’an which states “There is no compulsion in the deen”. .
The Mahdi cannot kill the Anti-Christ, meaning he cannot neutralize him. The Prophet Jesus will eliminate the Anti-Christ. Look what Said Nursi says; “Moreover, in the world of humanity, with the intention of denying the Godhead,- that is to say the denial of the existence of Allah- the secret society of the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) will overturn civilization and subvert- that is to say clutter- all mankind’s sacred matters. A zealous and self-sacrificing community known as a Christian community, but worthy of being called “Muslim Christians,” will work to unite the true religion of Jesus (peace be upon him)-that is to say the real religion- with the reality of Islam, and will neutralize and rout that society of the Dajjal under the command of Jesus, thus saving humanity from atheism. “Letters, page 515
The killing being referred to here is of course not a deliberate killing using weapons or bloodshed, not the classic meaning of killing, but an intellectual one. He will do away with his ideas.
JOEL RICHARDSON: With regard to the rule and reign of the Mahdi, clearly you are emphasizing the non-violent and peaceful elements of his reign. We have a saying in the United States; we say; “we are playing the devil’s advocate.” And so my question to you first would be; do you believe the four rightly guided caliphs, the four caliphs were indeed rightly guided. And that the methods by which they spread Islam throughout much of the Middle East do you believe that the methods that they used by God, would you believe that they were using an improper and non-Islamic methods?
ADNAN OKTAR: Knowledge of history is not particularly determinative for us. Knowledge of the Qur’an is very important for us and the trustworthy hadith are very important. Our Prophet (saas) praises two periods. His own time and the time of Hazrat Mahdi (as). Excluding the time of Omar, Othman,Ali, and Abu Bakr excluding the period of the great Companions, there were major upheavals, difficulties and also good aspects in other periods. But the basic measure for us is the Qur’an and the trustworthy hadith. When we look at these we see that the End Times will be enormously pleasant and peaceful. Because there is no other path apart from love in a world without weapons. No climate in which we might expect oppression and violence remains. Because an unarmed person cannot oppress anyone. The whole question is one of a disarmed, love-filled world. The Mahdi (as) and the Prophet Jesus will bring that about.
Verse 61 of Surat az-Zukhruf says, “He [Jesus(as) – The Messiah] is a sign of the hour.” There is a verse describing him as a sign. In other words, the coming of the Prophet Jesus is a sign for Doomsday, the most important event of the time of Hazrat Mahdi (as).
For example, in verse 55 of Surat al-‘Imran Allah says, “I will raise you up and take you back to me and purify those of you who are kafir.” I will purge Christianity of the enemies of the Prophet Jesus, of the enemies of Christianity at that time. I will purify you off them, that is to say I will save you from them He says that those who follow you and love you, those who loves Jesus, who loves the Messiah – and we love him and you do too-, He says He will make those who love the Prophet Jesus superior to the deniers until the time of Doomsday, until the times very near to the Doomsday. He says He will make them a superior force for the ones who love Jesus. “Then you will all return to Me,” says Allah. This verse makes it clear that Islam will rule the world. He says, “I will place the people who follow you above those who are kafir until the Day of Rising.” That means He is saying He will make them strong and sovereign in all respects, social, political and economical. Whoever loves the Prophet Jesus, I mean Muslims with faith and whoever really loves the Prophet Jesus. In verse 159 of Surat an-Nisa Allah says, “There is not one of the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them.” What does that mean? It means Islam will rule the world. It appears separately from this expression and from other verses that Islam will rule the world. Allah swears “There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies.” Everyone will believe. What does that mean? Everyone in the world, wherever they may be, in Africa, Asia or the in the North Pole or the South Pole will believe in the Prophet Jesus when he comes. And that means the world dominion of Islam.
In his Tasdik-i Gaybi Said Nursi says of Hazrat Mahdi (as): “The Mahdi’s third task will be to create an alliance with devout Christians and Christian scholars and to serve Islam in co-operation and solidarity, acting together with them.” That is how he describes Hazrat Mahdi’s (as) third task.
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/
http://www.prophezine.com/PZArticles/TheIslamicEndTimeParadigmByJoelRichardson/tabid/931/Default.aspx
http://www.answering-islam.org/index.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/index.htm
http://www.jessewoodrow.com/
Grant Jeffrey on “God TV” says he knows where the “Ark of the Covenant” is being kept. This is totally cool. You know the Lord’s coming.
I think he is speculating. This is mostly folk lore. He mixed it with some isolated facts, to come to a wrong conclusion.
The bible never said Solomon married the Queen of Sheba. She was not from Ethiopia anyhow. She was from Saudi Arabia.
No one has ever seen the ark in Ethiopia. The ones, including the Queen of England, that went in said there was nothing there.
The Ethiopians claim it is invisible, and that only someone who is meant to see it will see it. They still claim they have it there, indicating it was never transferred anywhere.
Also, if the replica had been left behind, then where did that go? Answer is no where, since that would have been a prize to this day.
Also, the ark was seen under the ruins of the crucifixion site by an archeologist, who photographed it. He said the blood of Jesus dripped down on it, and he had the blood tested. So I guess the wrong ark was there when Jesus was here, and his blood dripped down on the wrong thing.
Grant is reading from Jeremiah, who remember, greatly preceded the time of Christ. It says that the ark will not be a discussion once the Messiah comes. SO……The Messiah came 2000 years ago.
Also, Grant does not understand the true ark. He is saying that the antichrist will touch the ark, to commit abomination. This is not possible. Since anyone who ever touched the ark DIED. This is why the priests used to use poles to carry it. NO ONE could touch it and live.
Grant also says the bible says that the ark will be important and then be no longer important in the tribulation. The bible does not say that. Grant makes things up. He should read his bible more.
I agree with you Marianne!
I listening to Grant Jeffrey again and reading what you wrote. He said Solomon married a lot of pagan women and had “relations” with the Queen of Sheba. I looked her up and we don’t know 100% where she came from. I found information from Three traditions, including the Islamic one.
•Born: c. 10th century B.C.
•Birthplace: Sheba (now Yemen or Ethiopia)
•Died: c. 10th century B.C.
•Best Known As: The wealthy queen who tested Solomon
Queen of Sheba was an ancient name for Abyssinia, a kingdom on the Red Sea in the vicinity of modern Ethiopia and Yemen. The Queen of Sheba is best known for a story in the Bible’s book of Kings: at the head of a caravan of riches, she visits Israel’s King Solomon to test his legendary wisdom. After Solomon successfully answers her riddles, the queen showers him with gifts. According to Ethiopian tradition the queen returned to Sheba and bore a son by Solomon, Menelik I, who was the beginning of the Ethiopian royal dynasty.
(flourished 10th century BC) In Jewish and Islamic traditions, ruler of the Kingdom of Saba’ (Sheba) in southwestern Arabia. In an Old Testament story, she visited King Solomon to test his wisdom. In Islamic tradition she is known as Bilqis and is converted from worship of the sun to worship of God, marrying either Solomon himself or a Hamdani tribesman. In Persian folklore she is considered the daughter of a Chinese king and a peri (a type of supernatural being). Ethiopian tradition names her Makeda; her son by Solomon is seen as the founder of the Ethiopian royal dynasty.
A somewhat nebulous figure, the Queen of Sheba (fl. 10th century BCE) – known also as Bilqis and as Makeda – figures prominently in Judaic, Islamic, and Ethiopian traditions. Her legendary voyage to meet Solomon, King of Israel, has inspired centuries of speculation about her kingdom and influence in the ancient world. Modern-day Ethiopians believe her, as the mother of their first Emperor, Menilek I, to be the ultimate maternal ancestor of the dominant Ethiopian royal dynasty.
A Queen of Legend
Little has been verified about the Queen of Sheba’s life – in fact, even such basic details as her given name and the exact location of her kingdom remain uncertain. Tradition places her date of birth in the latter half of the 11th century BCE and her death in approximately 955 BCE; although her kingdom is referred to as both to the south and to the east of Israel, scholars generally believe her to have ruled an area in northern Africa roughly equivalent to modern-day Ethiopia, a country which claims her the progenitor of their long-ruling Solomonic dynasty.
The Queen’s 10th century BCE visit to the grand court of Solomon, King of Israel and son of the legendary Goliathslayer David, however, is well-attested in three major ancient sources: the Biblical Old Testament, the Islamic Qu’ran, and the Ethiopian Kebra Nagast (Glory of the Kings). These three perspectives on the Queen meld to create a picture of one of the relatively rare, powerful female monarchs of the ancient world.
A Biblical Riddler
The most widespread story of the Queen of Sheba stems from an Old Testament passage describing her journey to Jerusalem to meet with the Jewish king, Solomon, renowned for his wisdom. An account of her stay at Solomon’s court appears in I Kings 10:1 – 14 and in a nearly word-for-word repetition, 2 Chronicles 9:1 – 12. Both passages begin: “The queen of Sheba heard of Solomon’s fame, and she traveled to Jerusalem to test him with difficult questions. She brought with her a large group of attendants, as well as camels loaded with spices, jewels, and a large amount of gold. When she and Solomon met, she asked him all the questions that she could think of. He answered them all; there was nothing too difficult for him to explain.” The rest of the tale describes the Queen’s awe of Solomon’s wisdom, riches, and relationship with God, as well as the two monarchs’ exchange of gifts. This brief text forms the basis for later embellishments of the queen’s voyage.
Few other direct references to the queen occur in Biblical sources. In Matthew 12:42 (repeated almost exactly in Luke 11:31), Jesus says, “On the Judgment Day the Queen of Sheba will stand up and accuse you, because she traveled all the way from her country to listen to King Solomon’s wise teaching.” Also, throughout the centuries, the Old Testament book known alternately as the Song of Songs and the Song of Solomon has been speculated to be a series of love poems sent between Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.
A story that certainly served as inspiration for later Islamic and Ethiopian writers appears in a late paraphrase of the book of Esther explained by C.H. Toy in the Journal of American Folklore article “The Queen of Sheba.” “On a certain day when [Solomon’s] heart was warmed by wine, he … invited all the … kings of the of the East and the West … in order that the kings might see his greatness. All … came except the moorcock … [who] excused himself by saying that for three months he had been flying over the earth … to see if there was any land that did not acknowledge the king’s authority.” The bird reports he has discovered a fertile land to the east ruled by the Queen of Sheba and Solomon, intrigued, sends the bird back to the queen with a letter requesting her presence at his court. The queen wrote back, sending presents, and undertook the voyage to Jerusalem in three years-although the journey normally required seven years-spurred by her desire to pose riddles to Solomon. Solomon answers correctly, proving his wisdom to the powerful queen.
An Islamic Convert
The Islamic legend of the Queen of Sheba, or Bilqis (alternatively, Balkis) as she is known in the Arabian tradition, stems from these short Jewish narratives. The story of the Queen’s appearance at Solomon’s court in the Islamic holy text, The Qu’ran, follows a thread similar to that of the Book of Esther. In Chapter 27 of the Qu’ran, a messenger bird declared: “I have come to thee from Saba with sure tidings. I found a woman ruling over all of them; she has been granted everything and she has a wondrous throne. I found her and her worshipping the sun, instead of Allah.” The passage further explains that Satan has led the queen and her subjects away from Allah, and Solomon, thinking to test this assertion, sends the bird back to the queen with a letter requesting confirmation of the bird’s tale. Upon receiving the queen’s response of extravagant gifts, Solomon is not satisfied and writes again, requesting her presence. The queen visits Solomon and, awed by his court, converts to the worship of Allah.
Arabian legends based on the Qu’ran embellish this story to include some speculation about the queen’s descent from demons and later, her possible marriage to Solomon. Solomon’s advisors inform him that the queen has hairy legs; to discover the truth of this, Solomon constructs a palace with glass floors. The queen, believing the floor to be made of water, lifts her skirts, revealing her legs and feet. As Toy commented, “later Moslem writers interpreted this physical peculiarity as showing that she was of jinn descent; they constructed a romantic history of her father’s marriage to a jinn maiden.” Legends also conjectured that the queen and Solomon wed during her visit to his court and had a son who succeeded to the throne of Sheba.
An Ethiopian Queen
This marriage figures prominently in the Ethiopian accounts of the queen. Drawing on Jewish and Islamic traditions, the Ethiopian story of the Queen of Sheba – identified with Makeda, Queen of Ethiopia – provides the most extensive picture of the Queen. Told in the Kebra Nagast (The Glory of Kings), a 14th century compilation of regional oral histories, this version also begins with a voyage to King Solomon’s court at Jerusalem. “The Queen was dumbstruck with wonder at the things that she heard from [a traveling merchant], and she pondered in her heart that she would to go to Solomon, the King,” related the Kebra Nagast, which further details her voyage from Ethiopia bringing lavish gifts to the King. During the queen’s stay, Solomon became infatuated with her. Determined to have the virginal queen, Solomon extracts a promise from the queen to take nothing that belongs to him and then orders a grand banquet to be served the night before her departure. As Harold G. Marcus detailed in A History of Ethiopia: “He directed his cook to serve the best wines to prepare the spiciest dishes, both of which happily suited Makeda. After having eaten and drunk her fill, the queen fell into a stupor, during which Solomon had jugs of water, labeled as his property, placed strategically around her sofa. When Makeda reawakened, she immediately gulped down some water, an act that permitted King Solomon to satisfy his lust.” Solomon, having afterwards dreamt that God was granting him an heir by the queen, requested that the queen send their son to Jerusalem when the boy came of age.
Accordingly, the queen gave birth to a son, Ebna Hakim, who traveled to his father’s court as an adolescent. In Pillars of Ethiopian History, William Leo Hansberry recorded that “Solomon … was overjoyed to see his handsome and noble-minded son.… Solomon did his best to persuade Ebna Hakim to remain to Jerusalem, with the intention of making him his successor; but the young prince was deaf to his father’s pleas.” Solomon thus confirmed his son as the future King of Ethiopia and gathered several of his advisors’ sons to return with Ebna Hakim and assist him during his rule. This group refused to leave Jerusalem without the legendary Ark of the Covenant-the chest reputed to contain the original tablets of the Ten Commandments sent to Moses by God, among other religious artifacts-and so, stole the Ark. As Marcus commented, “The larceny was apparently approved by God, who levitated the youths and their holy cargo across the Red Sea before discovery and chase by Solomon’s forces.” To this day, Ethiopian tradition places the Ark in the northern Ethiopian city Axum.
When the queen died in the mid-10th century BCE, her son rose to the Ethiopian throne as Emperor Menilek I. This Solomonic Dynasty ruled Ethiopia for much of the next 2000 years; the last emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Sellassie, claimed descent from Solomon and the queen through Menilek.
A Lasting Legacy
As these varied accounts show, the Queen of Sheba has fascinated and inspired numerous cultures for nearly 3000 years. The lack of any verifiable details of her life does not seem to inspire doubt about her existence. As Nicholas Clapp commented in Sheba: Through the Desert in Search of the Legendary Queen, “Her encounter with King Solomon must have happened … because as biblical tales go, it was so dull. She shows up; she’s awed; she’s crestfallen; she leaves. Nobody is led in or out of temptation, is distraught or gets killed; there is no evident moral message. The story had the earmarks of a day-in, day-out formal court record … [this is] reinforced by passages immediately preceding and following the Sheba story, passages that dwell on Solomon’s prowess in foreign affairs.” Instead of being ignored due to its brevity, the bare narrative given in the Old Testament has served as ample fodder for fanciful stories and modern scholarly and popular speculation about the relationship between the wealthy, intelligent queen and the religious, wise King Solomon. Centuries after her death, the Queen of Sheba still rules over the imaginations of people both within and far beyond the boundaries of her ancient kingdom.
Here I go getting off the subject again. Lyndsey look up Falashas. It doesn’t sound like you know about them. That Heredi Women the Lubavitch are persecuting in Arad must be married to an Ethiopian because she’s yelling back at them in the video about discrimination of her black child. I’m not singling out Israel. I want them to be better. Jack Bernstein an Askenazik Jew was discriminated against when he married a Sephardic Jew. He wrote the book “An American Jew in Racist, Marxist Israel.” The Politics is confusing. They bring the people to the coutnry, but then they try to control their birth rate. People are exposing it. That’s totally Jewish.
no offense…I don’t really care. I’ll leave the jewish conspiracy theories to you 🙂
hi kitti
I see several aspects in this video.
First, contraception is not restricted to just Ethiopian Jews. I am sure many women in Israel use birth control.
The birth control is their choice, because they want this so they can start in a new country, according to the video. It seems like they were given a choice of what type of contraception they wanted.
second, this is an international issue of medical negligence. People everywhere, including me, have been given medicine without explaining the side effects. Or the staff were so ignorant of the possible adverse reactions that they were useless to explain it anyhow. I see things on TV all the time about medical claims against pharmaceutical companies for medical problems due to their drugs.
Unfortunately, the ones who will request the birth control the most will be the poor women, so they will be the majority who demonstrate bad side effects of poorly researched drugs. It happens there, and in the USA, and in Europe as well.
I was in medical research, and the controls to stop this are poor. The staff that do the clinical trials do not even know what to look for. They do not know how to question the research subjects to get at potential problems. What could be a side effect is ignored as just some little complaint that is not important. Or the do not test long enough to see long term damage. They just push it out to market.
I am so sorry to hear of these immigrants to Israel having these problems. Racism may be involved too, but the medical issues are very common everywhere.
That is why I prefer to work to get off as many meds as I can. I do not trust what anyone gives me.
what do you know about Clonidine marianne? This is what they have William on..for 8 years now; if he doesn’t take it then he is up all night…
wow… they put a child on that? I just looked it up, and they sure do.
I don’t think he should be on it. It depresses the sympathetic nervous system, and affects the heart and blood pressure.
coming off of the medicine has to be done very cautiously……
For now, he is on the clonidine.
But, in the meantime, research out nutrition alternatives on the internet.
We were reading Ezekiel Chapter 11 and 12 today at church. In verse 22-25 of chapter 11 it says: So the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them, and th glory of the God of Israel was high above them. And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood up the mountain, which is on the east side of the city.
Then the Spirit took me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea to those in captivity. And the vision that I had seen went up from me. So I spoke to those in captivity of all the things the Lord had shown me. (Mount of Olives)
Jesus in Matthew 23:37-24:3 took the same path as the Glory of God when it departed from the Ark.
I believe something like the Ark cound never be lost like Grant Jeffrey said. It’s somewhere in safe keeping. The Jews want all the important articles from the Bible for the Third Temple. The Ark can’t kill anyone, if they touch it, because the Skekiah has left it.
Marianne you said:
“Grant is reading from Jeremiah, who remember, greatly preceded the time of Christ. It says that the ark will not be a discussion once the Messiah comes. SO……The Messiah came 2000 years ago.”
Jeremiah 3:16-17
Then it shall come to pass , when you are mulitplied and increased in the land in those days.” says the Lord, “that they will say no more, “The ark of the covenant of the Lord ” It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
That’s the second comimg, the Millenium. “All the Nations shall be gathered to it.” That didn’t happen at his first coming.
True, about the ark and the second coming.
I know the Rabbi from the temple institute knows where the ark is, because I heard him say so.
That was an old passage from Ezekiel, which also was before Christ, and the temple still had its “glory” until after he left. That passage also preceded the second temple.
I never heard any mention of whether the ark was present or not in scripture when Jesus was here. I just assumed it was present. If so, then it disappeared in 70 AD.
If I could be around the ark, I would not try to touch it. 🙂
I’m not getting the flu vaccine for the firt time, because they are combining three of which one is th H1N1. This year they can’t force us to wear masks the entire time we are working , but they are enforcing us to wear them when we are in direct patient care. It’s a way of pressuring us to take the vaccine? Why? They have 7 million vaccinea left over from last year in this country, from an epidemic that never happened. You know what someone told me that didn’t take the vaccine last year? She noticed the doctors weren’t getting the vaccine. We have to have a sticker on our badge to prove we took it. I don’t trust this stuff anymore.
I don’t trust any thing either. I did not get a flu shot. I have not gotten one in years, and I survived.
I watch pharmaceutical companies all the time on TV getting sued for dangerous products. Count me out.
The HINI vaccine originally was made by Baxter in Germany. Their vaccine killed all the test dogs, which made the Germans mad, since they love their dogs over there. Baxter forgot to kill the virus before dispensing. There are too many sloppy mistakes being made.
I was in health care, so I know what you mean about hospital requirements. After retirement with the state, I thought about working in a private hospital or county health department, but I am now re-thinking that.
Very interesting
Hi Marianne,
In regards to the question:
“Does the antichrist need a temple to stand in the holy place?
First I would have to say that the antichrist is not that abomination that stands in the holy place. And I would have to say, yes, they will need a temple in order for the abomination to be placed in.
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a [wing of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” (Dan.9:27)
For one, I believe that that covenant he makes is definitely with Israel, because as you notice in the verse that all it says is “He will confirm a covenant with many.” But, what gives away the fact that the covenenant is in part with Israel, is because of what follows: “In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.” So, because this ruler is causing the daily sacrifices and offerings to cease, we know that this is speaking of Israel. And, this also tells us that this ruler is most likely responsible for them to begin their sacrifices and offerings. In other words, the covenant that he makes with them is directly related to their being able to make sacrifices and offerings in accordance with their law. Will there be a temple in which to perform sacrifices as was done according to the law?
“And on a [wing of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
So, here we read in Daniel’s prophecy, that this abomination is set up on a wing of the temple, inferring that there is in fact going to be a temple. Regarding this, Jesus said the following:
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of though the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are Judea flee to the mountains.” (Mt.24:15-16)
So, the location of the “Wing of the temple” that Daniel referred to is the holy place, which was the room just outside of the Holy of Holies. Israel will only begin to perform sacrifices according to Levitical law, having the actual location of the Holy of Holies, for without it, they would not be able to send their high priest in once a year to make atonement for himself and for the people and therefore, all other sacrifices according to the law would be in vain. Another proof that they will not just sacrifice anywhere is because, if that were the case, they would currently be sacrificing today. Remember, they are sticklers for the law, the written code, and therefore, everything must be according to the instructions given by Moses in order for their sacrifices and temple worship to be acceptible by God. We who are in Chirst know that, Jesus is the end of the law, that the whole law of Moses was nailed to the cross as completed by Christ and that we are led by the Spirit and not by the written code, but since they did not receive Jesus as the Christ, the law is still in effect in their eyes.
Regarding the coming temple, there are those who have been doing the deep investigations, the footwork and have found that the Dome of the Rock does not sit on the actual site of the Holy of Holies, but may be as much as 150 ft. south of the Dome of the Rock. They also have other speculations that put the Holy of Holies on the temple mount, but outside of the Dome of Rock. I believe that where the Dome of the Rock is, may end up being that “Outer Court” given over to the Gentiles (Muslims) that is not measured found in Rev.11:2.
“But exclude the other court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.”
It will be most likely that, when this ruler, 9beast, antichrist0 makes his covenant with them, that the covenant will allow Israel to build their long awaited temple and begin their levitcal sacrifices, where as we have read, that ruler will cause them to cease in the middle of that seven year period. This of course is initiated by the setting up of that abomination, which is not the beast himself, but an image of him, for Rev. 13:14-15, though it does not use the designation “Abomination of Desolation,” gives a description of it:
“Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an [image] in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet leived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that i could speak and cause all who refused to worship the [image] to be killed.”
This setting up of the image (abomination), is what causes the desolation of Jerusalem and I believe is synonymous with the Woman (Israel) fleeing from the dragon (Satan) out into the wilderness where she is cared for by God for 1260 days or a time, times and a half of time, which is 3 1/2 years measured in 30 day incriments.
“The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.”
(Rev.12:6,13-17)
What happens at the end of the 1,260 days (3 1/2 years)?
“until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
“Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” (Rev.19:19-20)
This is what is meant when it is referred to him as going to his destruction.
Something that has been on-going is that the Jewish authorities have quietly recovered lost artifacts from the ancient temple and have recreated sacred worship vessels. They have a new Sanhedrin, now reconvened in Israel, and have been and are currently training Levite priests to reinstitue animal sacrifice. I believe that the coming of this antichrist will make it possible for them to do what they have been planning for with the rebuilding of the new temple. I believe that he will be the one to break down the barriers between Muslim and Jew allowing the temple to be built adjacent to the Dome of the Rock. However, my personal belief is that, we the Church will not be here on earth during this time.
Hard to believe that we are still looking for an earthly temple. In that vein here is a great quote from a faithful man of God with many years of Godly wisdom concerning this issue.
“It never ceases to amaze me that people read the Bible and never get a glimmer of these mysteries. The reason the Holy Spirit arranged for the book of Revelation to become the last book in the Bible is so that after you have finished reading the other 65 books you should have at least an idea of what some of the types are about, so that when you get over to the book of Revelation and read about a temple being measured, you won’t be over in the Middle East somewhere carrying around a measuring stick! Over the past several years a number of people have sent me books and letters and they are all excited because men are raising red heifers to take over to the land of Israel to sacrifice for the purification of the priesthood. I see them as they read these reports and get all excited about these red heifers. As Lynn Hiles has said, I, too, want to shake them and say to them, “If your theology brings you to the place where you go back to outward temples made with hands, and the ashes of red heifers, and the blood of bulls and goats — somewhere you missed the point! There are few things that I will argue with anyone about, but I tell you, if your theology ends with the blood and ashes of bulls and heifers, someone has hoodwinked you and pulled the wool over your eyes! If you think the blood of red heifers will ever purify a priesthood to serve in a temple in Jerusalem, or that some Antichrist will one day sit and reign from a Jewish temple, you haven’t learned your ABC’s of spiritual truth and divine revelation. I can hear the Holy Ghost saying, What! Are you mad? You mean to say that after 65 books of the Bible you didn’t get that point?” “And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people” (II Cor. 6:16). “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out” (Rev. 3:12)”
(Preston J Eby)
hi Tim
I agree that the true temple is spiritual, and that the final Jerusalem will look a lot different than what we see now.
But the Jews don’t know that, so they will try to build this last temple, which will, in the end , be defiled with the abomination.
Let us pray that more people realize that the final true temple will be made of spirit.
HI Marianne,
What “Final Jerusalem” are you speaking of? The one during the millennial period or the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven after the great white thone judgement? If you are speaking of the latter, this is a literal city that comes down out of heaven from God. There is way too much detail about the New Jerusalem for it to be symbolic. Furthermore, in that New Jerusalem, there is no temple in it, per the following verse:
“I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev.21:22)
Neither will there be any more seas, nor a sun or a moon shining on the new earth and there will be no more night time. (Rev.21:1,23)
hi Don,
I was referring to both.
1. We are the temple of the holy spirit, so the spirit is the temple.
2. the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven , not made by human hands. Although it seems to be a physical entity, its origin is spirit, and only those with the spirit of God can dwell in it.
Hi Marianne,
Yeah, I understand what you are saying, but it is definitely a physical city, since it is said that there will be no need of the sun or the moon to shine on it, because it states that the glory of God gives it light. It also states that the nations that are upon the new earth will walk by its light. The phrase “Not made by human hands” simply refers to the fact that it will not be something that is man-made, because God is its architect. The fact that the angel gives a measurement for the width, highth and length of the city, as well as the measurement of the thickness of the walls would also speak of a physical city, that is, one that can be seen and touched. The New Jerusalem will sit like an amazing jewel in the new heavens with the glorious light of God shining through it, giving light to the earth instead of sun and the moon.
In regards to those who can dwell in the city, God’s word says:
“He who overcomes will inherit all this”
As far as being indwelt by the Holy Spirit after we have been resurrected and caught up, no information is given, but I would say that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit may only be specific to our current mortal state. For example, I don’t believe that the holy angels of God are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In any case, the word of God is silent in regards to this issue, so we can only speculate as to whether the indwelling of the Holy Spirit continues after we have gone from mortal to immortal. According to Scripture, once the resurrection takes place and the living are changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the word says, “This body that was sown in dishonor will be raised in glory.” So, it appears that when that happens, we take on a glorified state, unlike now, where we are currently credited with righteousness for our faith. In other words, at that point, we will no longer be plagued with this sinful nature that we now carry around and wrestle with us, leaving only the gloified state.
The Holy Spirit is the one who is responsible for the “resurrection takes place and the living are changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,..”
Just for the sake of the corectness of the word of God, where did you read that the Holy Spirit is resonsible for the resurrection and catching away? I read that the Lord is directly responsible:
“For the [Lord himself] will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise First.”
(1 Thes.4:16)
According to the vers above, when Jesus decends from heaven, he resurrects those who are in their graves and then after that, He changes those who are still alive, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and catches them up to meet those just recently resurrected and takes us all back to the Father’s house. Is there another Scripture that shows the Holy Spirit being the one who initiates the Resurrection and catching away?
Who do you think resurrected Jesus? Remember, Jesus had received the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit-this is where His power came from to heal the sick and raise the dead. You have the Father-who is reflected in Jesus-when you see Jesus you see the Father and after Jesus was baptized the HS descended upon him-was INSIDE of HIM-Jesus. When Jesus ascended, he told his disciples not to leave because Jesus would be sending the Holy Spirit to be INSIDE OF THEM-this is found in Acts and explained further in Romans and Corinthians. This is what I was talking to you about-the baptism (submersion) in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2 and specifically verse 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” )
And verse17“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
One of the reasons why I know this to be true is that I had asked G-d how He was going to “pull this off” regarding what we call the “rapture”. I thought a lot about it and believing wholeheartedly that what the Bible says is truth, I was curious…In March 2010 G-d answered that question. As I was watching an older lady across the street being lifted up with her hands to her side with palms facing upwards as if praising/worshiping, I began to feel the electricity, that so often accompanies the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, throughout my body as I too felt myself being lifted up off the ground. I remember thinking to myself, “so this is how you do it”. G-d answered my prayer, not the first time I might add, through a “dream”. It was incredible. I strongly urge anyone who desires ALL that G-d has for them to simply ASK Jesus for the promise of the Holy Spirit-this experience is very much SEPARATE from the baptism in water.
“G-d answered that question IN A DREAM” meant to put that in the beginning so as not to confuse what it was I was seeing.
sorry for the confusion
Hi Lyndsey,
We have to remember that though God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God, they are also individual entities. This can be seen in the book of John where when Jesus comes up out of the water after being baptised,the Holy Spirit lands on Jesus in the form of a dove and then we hear the voice of the Father saying “this is my Son in whom I am well pleased.” So, here we have all three in one place at the same time, yet individual.
In regards to the resurrection and catching away, I refer back to the Scripture to validate that it does not state that the Holy Spirit is the one causing the Resurrection and catching, but Christ himself who descends from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God. That is why I listed the verse, because it states that “The Lord himself will descend from heaven.” So, we must stick to Scripture. It does not say that the Holy Spirit descends from heaven, with a shout and with the voice of the archangel. Not only that, but Jesus himself said that he personally would come back for us as seen in the following verse:
“In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, [I] will come back and take you to be with [me] that you also may be where I am.” (Jn.14:1-3)
So here again, we see that Jesus is speaking specifically of himself personally returning to get us by the use of of the verse “I will come back.”
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but only to contend for the word of God accurately. There are many false teachings out there now, even people proclaiming that Paul is false apostle and a liar and that what he wrote is not to be accepted as Scripture. also stating that we are obligated to observing the law and many other false teachings. So, I am committed to contend for the truth of what God’s word says without deviation. Therefore, in regards to the resurrection and catching away, the Scripture states that “The Lord himself will come down from heaven.” If we claim that it is the Holy Spirit who is coming down and reurrecting us, then we are not standing on the word of God, but are going beyond it and reading into something that is not there.
Hey Don, re: “We have to remember that though God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God, they are also individual entities.”
*I believe that is what I said in my prior post.
Regarding the HS landing on Jesus’ head in the form of a dove-NO, a literal DOVE never landed on Jesus’ head. Jesus was FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
And I never said that the Holy Spirit would be DESCENDING-the Holy Spirit, being HERE ON EARTH INFILLING the believers will be the one who RAISES US UP causing us to ascend-to meet Jesus in the air.
I was wondering about your statement to Tim when you stated that you have been reading the bible for 38 years…no disrespect intended, but how in the world have you missed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? If you go back to Acts, Romans, John, Corinthians and even Matthew, the Holy Spirit is talked about and explained. Jesus PROMISES the Holy Spirit prior to his ascension. At pentecost, the disciples receive the Holy Spirit…and as I stated in my last post, this PROMISE was for their children and for those afar off-for all of those whom G-d calls. Without the Holy Spirit, your approach to the scriptures is merely academic-without spiritual discernment which ONLY the Holy Spirit is able to give. When you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit WITH YOU. You are then baptized in water FOR REPENTANCE. But as the scriptures CLEARLY STATE, there is another Baptism which comes AFTER the water baptism and that is the one of the Holy Spirit were HE COMES INSIDE OF YOU.
Matthew 3:11
Luke 3:16
John 7:38 (notice Jesus had to be glorified FIRST)
John 14:26
Acts 2
Acts 19:3 and 4
Romans 8:11
…..for starters
Tim said:
“for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”
That was a nice speach Tim, but remember, Israel did not and has not received Jesus as the Christ and therefore, the levitical law is still active as far as they are concerned. We as Christians know the truth that Jesus is the Christ and we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, but Israel doesn’t. The fact of Scripture is that this will be a literal temple and a literal abomination (image) that will be set up in it half way through the seven year period. After the Church period is over, God is then going to pick up where He left off with Israel and complete the prophecy, which says:
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are determined for your people and you holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.”
(Dan.9:24)
Furthermore, I haven’t missed the point on anything, as Jesus also confirms a literal temple. Your belief that the temple is spiritual is assumtion on your part or by someone elses teaching, because there is nothing in the Scripture that would point to it being symbolic. you remind me of those people who read about the mark of the beast and then say, “Oh, that’s not a literal mark, not a literal right hand or literal forehead, yet there is nothing in the verse that points to symbolism. And on top of that, we already have subdermal computer chips being manufactured with different applications, one being for making purchases. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense. As far as the book of Revelation and the rest of the books, I have been studying them for the last 38 years, so I am well aware of what the Scriptures say. The point is, since this coming ruler will cause the daily sarifice to cease, that tells me that this is a literal temple. The other fact is that this antichrist sets up an image in that temple, which is another proof that it is literal. The only way that you can make the temple symbolic is by forcing the issue and thereby misinterpret it. Obviously, you are symbolizing what is meant to be literal and the burden of proof is on you, because literal is exactly how it reads from Daniel and Jesus.
Don,
You asked that I should provide the proof of a spiritual interpretation concerning Antichrist in the temple.
Right now the church of Christ, particularly in the West is suffering a great falling away, an apostasy according to that which is written.
This will come about in part because most Christians have become presumptuous in their faith. They have presumed that they cannot stumble, nor err, nor in any way suffer loss as a result of spiritual deception, i.e. strong delusions.
Inspite of the fact that God says that He will send a “strong delusion” a “working of error” upon many, in the last days.
Jeremiah also speaks of the people of God being led astray in the last days, as does Isaiah and John in Revelation. That Western Christendom/Babylon the great, has become the threshing floor of the Lord awaiting the harvest.
From my perspective there is a spirit of Antichrist over much of the church and western Christendom that concerns me far more than a prophecied Antichrist in a stone temple.
I’m pretty sure that you’ll find a whole lot more people than me out there saying the same thing. And the evidence for Antichrist in Christendom is evident everywhere….
I think one need not look too far at all to see the evidence for a spiritual abomination in a spiritual temple, even in our day.
Tim
Hi Tim,
First, let me say that, my intentions in posting here are to share the word of God and to have fellowship with everyone who believes in Jesus crucified, buried and resurrected. It is not my intention to have an attitude of “I’m right and you’re wrong.” So, if I have come across in that way, I apologize. On the otherhand, it is also my intention to contend for the word of God. In regards to the following, which you wrote:
“They have presumed that they cannot stumble, nor err, nor in any way suffer loss as a result of spiritual deception, i.e. strong delusions.”
I am not one of those people, as I am always aware that I am a sinner justified by God through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. As far as stumbling and erring, we all do, more than I can count, although forgiven. We are covered sinners.
In regards to your mention of “God sending them a strong delusion,” this is in direct relation to the time of that antichrist. for the scripture states the following:
“The coming of the lawless one one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion to that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” (2Thes.2:9-12)
In order to understand what “The Lie” is, we must read the previous verses leading up to this verse, which says:
“He will appose and will exalt himself over every thing that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets hiimself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2Thes.2:4)
So, this man of lawlessness, also designated as the antichrist and the beast, will be proclaiming himself to literally be God. And to backup that claim, he will have his right-hand man, that second beast, who comes up out of the earth, also designated as the false prophet, he will be the one performing the signs, miracles and wonders in order to give credibility to the antichrist to backup his claims of being God. And because the people will not love the truth, God will send them a strong delusion to believe that lie, being deceived by the miracles, signs and wonders and therefore, believing him to be God.
Currently, the christian world is sleeping for the most part and being led away by all kinds of false teachings and the comforts of this life. Also, the Church as become more like a social club and so, as Jesus said regarding those last days, which are linked to the time of this antichrist:
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the truth and will betray and hate each other and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” (Mt.24:9-11)
During the middle of that last seven years, when he sets up that abomination (image) in the holy place, Israel flees into the wilderness (desolation) and is cared for for 1,260 days
(3 1/2 years). At that same time, the mark of the beast will have become manditory in order to be able to buy and sell, that is, to be able to credit and debit ones bank account, because cash, checks, credit and debit will no longer be acceptible monitary forms. During that time, anyone who is for Jesus Christ will be an enemy of the beast, the false prophet and the entire world. And so, when persecution and death become the price for standing with Jesus, many will abandon the faith, because when it comes to a matter of persection and death, that is where they will draw the line on their faith, and that because they will love their lives more than taking their stand for Jesus and the gospel. On the otherhand, there will also be those who God chose before the world began, the great tribulation saints, who will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death and the majority of them will be beheaded (Rev.20:4). I personally believe that the church will have already been resurrected and caught up prior to the revealing of this man of lawlessness but, though this is what I believe, my faith is not dependant upon when the resurrection and catching away takes place, but is in God through Jesus Christ.
I believe that the way in which that false prophet will force the inhabitants of the earth to receive the mark, is not by physical force, but will be because at a predetermined time during the middle of that seven year period, he will make all the other forms of buying and selling obsolete, leaving only the mark of the beast, which means, if you don’t receive it, you can’t buy or sell anything, that is, no business transactions, because you won’t be able to credit and debit your bank account. On the otherhand, whoever receives it will be aligning himself directly to the beast and we know what the consequences for that is. The mark will work in the same way as the debit card, which allows people to debit their bank account electronically via computer transaction in real time.
I know of one place that is already using this technology called the “Baja Beach Club” in Barcelona. Tuesday night is “Chip Night,” where those who want to have their own personal RFID computer chip implanted under the skin, can do so. Once this has been done, they can then order their drinks and then just wave their hand over the bar counter scanner and have the purchase amount automatically debited from their personal bank account. I believe that as time goes on, we will begin to see this form of payment begin to run paralell with cash, checks, credit and debit and will continue up until the middle of that seven year period, when, as I said, the other forms of buying and selling will be made obsolete by the beast and the false prophet.
What we should be doing as Christians, is continueing in prayer, studying his word, applying his word and loving one another, as well as our neighbor as ourselves. Since we know these things are coming upon the earth, we should continue going from faith to faith and continue watching and waiting for His appearing, for John wrote:
“But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see Him as He is. Everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just he is pure.” (1Jn.3:2-3)
Re: “During that time, anyone who is for Jesus Christ will be an enemy of the beast, the false prophet and the entire world. ”
I believe Obama’s Assassination program through the CIA will play a role in this. At present, Obama has passed a law this past year giving the presidency COMPLETE CONTROL in regards to saying who is to be assassinated and who is not. When I first heard of this, my first thought was that as it plays out in the tribulation phase, Christians, will then be considered “enemies of the state/terrorists” if they REFUSE the MARK..
Right now, if Obama even suspects (no proof) an individual of being a “terrorist” he can order his immediate death WITHOUT A TRIAL. The first person on the list after this passed is an American.
Don,
One of the things that I see happening amidst those who teach on the “end of all things” is an increasing divide between those who interpret a spiritual fulfillment concerning latter days, and those who view things in a more literal sense.
I don’t have all of the answers either but increasingly I am led to the spiritual interpretation, especially when I view the state of the mainstream church in our day.
And what is it that I see? I see a church who teaches the gospel according to the will of man with life coaching and best life now messages. Who use human wisdom and all manner of wordly means in building the church. Who refrain from teaching the whole counsel of God, and sharing the hard truths that cost like “unless a man forsake all that he has he cannot be my disciple” A church who places value on mammon as the riches of God, over and above the spiritual riches in Christ…..and so on and so forth…… Don’t get me started.
But the point is this. It is a man that is sitting in the temple, and it is the power of the flesh.
Mate, that’s just the way I see it and from my perspective it fits.
God bless, take care.
Tim
Hi Lyndsey,
Yes, I am aware that when we receive Christ, that we receive the Holy Spirit, that He dwells in us all. Also, I assure you that I am not speaking merely from an academic point of view, for the Scriptures must be Spiritally discerned. Why is it that if someone doesn’t proclaim what someone else believes, then they are dubbed as not speaking from the Spirit? I could only know what I know, because God allowed be to know it, that is, He taught it to me through His word.
In regards to the issue that we have been discussing, that is, who resurrects and catches us up, even though the Holy Spirit indwells us, there is nothing that states that he is the one who performs this. On the other hand, Scripture does state that Jesus himself is the One who is coming down to perform this as seen in the following verses:
“According to the Lord’s own word” (1Thes.4:15)
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,” (Rev.4:16)
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back”
(John 14:3)
In each of these verses, I am simply pointing out that it Jesus who is described as coming back and resurrecting and catching us away and what Scripture is proclaiming, I must proclaim. To go beyond that, is to read into the Scripture what is not there, as neither you nor anyone else can show me any Scritpural evidence that the Holy Spirit is there performing this event.
Also, regarding your following comment:
“Regarding the HS landing on Jesus’ head in the form of a dove-NO, a literal DOVE never landed on Jesus’ head. Jesus was FILLED with the Holy Spirit.”
Here is the actual Scripture:
“When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in [bodily form] like a dove:”
(Mt.3:16, Mk.1:9, Lk.3:21)
So, we can see from Scripture, the fact that it states that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in BODILY FORM, tells us that the He took on a corporeal form and actually landed on Jesus just as Matthew’s, Mark’s and John’s testimony proclaimes. To say that didn’t happen, is simply to deny Scripture.
Since you have seen my postings out here, you should know one thing about me and that is that I always stick to Scripture and post its location to backup what I am saying. If I am giving my own interpretation of what I believe is being said, then I make that known. The word of God permeates my soul, spirit, heart and mind. From the time I wake up, until the time I go to sleep, I am meditating on God’s word, whether I am sitting on my couch, driving in my car, sitting at my desk at work, laying on my bed or in the shower, I am always meditating on Scripture and not only that, but I speak it out loud. This is not a forced issue, that is, I am not forcing myself to think about God’s word, the Holy Spirit is just there bringing me every subject on God’s word and I am thankful for that fact, because besides the word of God telling me that I have the Holy Sprit, this continuous activity of the Holy Spirit lso confirms it.
I am on a never ending mission to contend for the truth of God’s word, now more than ever, because we are seeing so much false teaching in the world. I am running across people who are proclaiming that Paul was a false apostle, a liar and that his letters are not to be considered as Scripture, that Jesus is not the savior, that we are still under the old covenant, the law, etc, etc. We have various churches voting in that those who practice same-sex can hold positions as pastors, teachers and other positions, who instead of repenting are justifying their actions and getting rid of what God’s word says on the subject. There is a great falling away from the truth of God’s word and I am adamant in contending for the truth! Therefore, all that I proclaim is from Scripture and what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me regarding these truths.
Yours in Christ –
don,
Did you READ the verses that I posted? If you did, you would not have stated “I am aware that when we receive Christ, that we receive the Holy Spirit, that He dwells in us all. “.
NO, the Holy Spirit does not automatically DWELL in us all when we become saved and baptized in water. That is made clear in the very first verse I posted-Matthew 3:11 …..11“I baptize you with WATER FOR REPENTANCE. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and with fire.
Jesus is the ONLY ONE who can baptize us with the Holy Spirit! We ask Jesus to do this.
If you haven’t received the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit WITH the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues-another language as so stated within the scriptures which I have given you many times, then perhaps this is a clue for you Don that G-d is wanting you to have this. I do recognize a lot of Truth in your posts from your many studies of the scriptures and I was simply amazed that you had not received the Holy Spirit! Your understanding of the scriptures would SURPASS your current understanding when you decide to receive the Holy Spirit to live inside of you.
Acts 1:8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;…..
Corinthians 12:4, 7-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit…. (7) Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Now regarding the Holy Spirit being the one that helps us to ascend/be caught up/raptured whatever you choose to call it, the Holy Spirit revealed this to me in my dream of the rapture. I had been praying and asking G-d to help me understand how He was going to do this and this was my answer. When you receive the HOly Spirit you will understand how I know this to be true! The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is unmistakable, undeniable, unimaginable and simply amazing!! Most often, as I have stated before, there is electricity and heat. We are given just a taste of G-d’s glory/presence through receiving the Holy Spirit and as it is written and I can personally testify to is found in John 16:13″But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. ”
I honestly pray that you will take this seriously and pursue the gift that Jesus promised!!
Hi Lyndsey,
You forgot the most important part of the Scripture:
“Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.” (1Cor.12:27-31)
Here, after Paul describing the different gifts, he basically states that not everyone has the same gifts, which means that, because someone does not speak in tongues, that does not mean that they do not have the Holy Spirit. For example, one might have the gift of administration as Paul mentions, but not speak in tongues, another might have the gift of teaching, but not speak in tongues, another might have the gift of prophecy, but not speak in tongues, etc, etc. To teach that unless one speaks in tongues that they don’t have the Holy Spirit is dangerous in that, you may destroy the faith of those who do not speak in tongues, but yet they have some other gift or gifts that the Holy Spirit gave to them. The churches where they teach that if a person doesn’t speak in tongues, that they dont’ have the Holy Spirit and therfore are not saved is a false teaching and destroys peoples faith. Then what you get is a church where everyone speaks in tongues in order to show each other that they have the Holy Spirit and are saved, but in actuality all they are doing is forced mumbling. Do all speak in tongues? Do all prophecy? Do all teach? Do all discern, do all heal? No! No! No! No! You don’t have to float five feet off the ground to know that you have the Holy Spirit. I believe that those outward gifts of power were to jumpstart and strengthen the early church, since they did not have the new testament to read, but today we have the complete word of God. Basically, Paul is saying that not everyone speaks in tongues, not everyone prophesies, not everyone has the gift of teaching and so on. I personally have a gift to proclaim, discern and teach the word of God. Do I speak in tongues, no! Does that mean that I don’t have the Holy Spirit, no!. It means that I just have differnet gifts, as does everyone else according to what the Spirit gives. According to what you are saying, the proof of salvation is the gift of speaking in tongues, where the word of God says, “We are saved by grace thought faith and not by works.” I can just see it now, Jesus saying to the man crucified next to him when he said: “Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And Jesus said, “truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise, but first let me hear you speak in tongues!” (Emphesis mine)
We are saved by grace through faith and not by demonstration of gifts. That man on the cross, could not come down to be baptized, could not do come down from the cross to do even one good work, except the work of confessing Christ, did not display any gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues and yet, he was with Jesus in paradise that very day. Amazing!
Seriously, did I say that you have to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be saved? NO, I DID NOT-you keep “assuming” this, that and the other.
Regarding the “evidence of speaking in tongues”, Don, I speak from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. The GIFT of tongues is SEAPARATE from the EVIDENCE of tongues. They are 2 SEPARATE GIFTS. The GIFT of tongues is where G-d will speak through that person in whatever chosen language he chooses to do so and IF it is G-d, then there will ALWAYS BE AN INTERPRETER. The tongues that is EVIDENT after receiving the Holy Spirit INSIDE OF YOU is for ones’ personal prayer life, hence the MEANING of “PRAY WITHOUT CEASING” 1 Thessolonians 5:17 and “He who speaks in tongues edifies himself” 1 corinthians 14:4
Regarding the verse-pray without ceasing-How would you go about doing that-pray without ceasing/without stopping? How does one PRAY WITHOUT CEASING UNLESS they have the HOLY SPIRIT inside of them PRAYING IN TONGUES-PRAYING IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE-praying SUPERNATURALLY. To pray without ceasing on our own-without the Holy Spirit is IMPOSSIBLE! We are human. We have to eat; we have to sleep; we have to communicate to one another in our own language daily. So explain to me Don, how would you go about praying without ceasing!!?? And don’t tell me that this “just means to pray whenever you can”..blah blah blah….IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS-PRAY WITHOUT CEASING.
When you have the HOLY SPIRIT living inside of you, you are then ABLE-supernaturally-to pray IN THE SPIRIT WITHOUT CEASING. You can literally PRAY while you are eating, sleeping and talking to someone else in your own language. Hence, it is SUPERNATURAL.
Further, I have never known anyone NOT to speak in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit. How would a person know if they had received the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit never said a word-never gave them their prayer language which is how the believer is edified? So YES, tongues is the evidence of having received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You are also SEALED-Marked- after receiving the Holy Spirit…..Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Don, are you arguing with me for the sake of arguing or are you the least bit interested in receiving ALL that G-d has to give to you? I personally think that anyone who is given this information and chooses NOT to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, after the EVIDENCE is laid out before them in the scriptures no less is nothing but CRAZY.
Why in the world would anyone, being a christian and loving G-d with all their heart, soul and mind would choose NOT to receive this gift? From personal experience and observation of others, I firmly believe that it is IMPERATIVE that each and every one who is saved and baptized in water FOR REPENTANCE should also be informed and also receive the Holy Spirit. (the Holy Spirit is the one who helps us in out spiritual battles-spiritual warfare-it is crazy to go into this “battle” without Him)
How would you explain this scripture here Don -Matthew 10:19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 FOR IT IS NOT YE THAT SPEAK, BUT THE SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER which speaketh in you. *The Holy Spirit is speaking through that person in whatever language He chooses to speak-tongues!
Or better yet, how would you explain this verse “…He (Jesus) gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease…Matthew 10:1 *it is Jesus who has the authority to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask! Where did Jesus get his Power, being part human….THE HOLY SPIRIT who FILLED JESUS after he came up out of the water (water baptism for repentance) and coming up out of the water, Jesus showed us the next step of which he spoke about to his disciples prior to pentecost-receiving the HOLY SPIRIT-the baptism-the submersion-the infilling.
The scriptures clearly support this baptism. I have personally received this baptism. Mariannne has received this baptism. I personally watched my friend from college receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit-it was incredible. She was also a “baptist” as was I, and she had never heard of this baptism as well.
I witnessed her baptism with her Aunt present as well as she began to speak in another language-the language sounded chinese.
You honestly don’t know what your missing Don and I have tried, through my sharing with you my personal experiences and by showing you where the evidence is found in the scriptures just how wonderful this gift is and why it is so very important to receive him-the Holy Spirit. Given your love and passion for G-d, it would be very sad indeed if you never pursued or received him-the Holy Spirit. ***Especially now that we are in the last days.***
And don’t forget…John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT and TRUTH, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God IS SPIRIT, and HIS WORSHIPERS MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.”
http://www.tbm.org/tongues.htm
http://ageofgrace.wordpress.com/the-promise-of-the-holy-spirit/
Re: “I personally have a gift to proclaim, discern and teach the word of God.”
Don, without receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this “gift” is your own-through your personality..genetic makeup etc. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are SUPERNATURAL and come AFTER receiving Him-AFTER the baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
Yes, we are saved by grace and through Faith. But is the Holy Spirit who reveals to the believer the understanding/revelation of who Jesus is and this is how we are able to believe in the first place.
The promise of the Holy Spirit was given by Jesus to his disciples and to “all those afar off, those whom G-d has called” Acts 2:39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
You have definitely been called Don and now G-d is wanting you to take the next step, again, by FAITH. You NEED the Holy Spirit living inside of you Don! WE ALL DO! The great falling away, in my opinion, will be because most believers have never taken the next step; they have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Please hear me, after my father died this past February, I was devastated! For whatever reason, if perhaps to help me understand how important the Holy Spirit is in my life and in the lives of others, I felt for the first time ALONE. My faith was gone!!! It was the strangest thing and hard to explain. The only way I know how to explain it is that I felt G-d being silent. I had to explain to my 7 year old what happens when we die, because his Papa had just died and I couldn’t do it! For the first time since I was 6 years old I did not believe it myself. Where did my dad go? Was he really in heaven or was that just something we told ourselves to get through the intense emotional pain of loss.
A friend of mine heard through another what I was going thru. She said to me ” go back to that which you know to be true”. Those words changed everything. The ONLY THING WHICH I KNEW TO BE TRUE was that I had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit 22 years ago. It was such an incredible moment in my life that it was hard to forget it. Not only that but I was able to pray in another language of which I had never learned!! This, and this alone, is what brought me back. I “remembered” the scripture that says “We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.” Romans 8:26
*(Remember Don, the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance the scriptures! John 14:26)
So I began to PRAY IN THE SPIRIT….I remember the Holy Spirit saying “papa” several times….I remember my heart breaking like I had never felt before, as if the Holy Spirit was grieving with me and helping me to grieve as well! My faith returned as strong as ever after this. He is my best friend and I honestly don’t know where I would be without HIM.
I know you love G-d as much as I do Don. I am amazed at your passion for His word. To have the Holy Spirit living INSIDE OF YOU DON would increase that passion beyond your human capabilities and imagination.
http://ageofgrace.wordpress.com/home/
Hi Lyndsey,
I guess we will have to just consider it, you believe what you believe and I believe what I do, because you keep telling me about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but yet you continue to deviate from the word of God. For example, you said:
“Regarding the “evidence of speaking in tongues”, Don, I speak from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. The GIFT of tongues is SEAPARATE from the EVIDENCE of tongues. They are 2 SEPARATE GIFTS.”
There is no mention of there being two separate gifts of tongues, one as “Evidence of tongues” and one as “The Gift of tongues.” This gift of tongues, is one in the same gift. The Holy Spirit just used that particular gift as a visible and audible proof of his indwelling for the building up and strengthening of the Church. Some people also prophesied when the Holy Spirit fell upon them, does that mean that there are two separate gifts of prophecy? one as “Evidence of prophecy and one as “The gift of Prophecy?”
I am confident that I am not lacking in the Holy Spirit, for He just gave me other gifts besides speakng in tongues. Another good proof of having the Holy Spirit dwelling in you (besides the fact that God’s word says He is) is the fact that, for those who are in Christ, our spirits war against the flesh and the flesh wars against the spirit and that because they are contraty to one another. This happens because, once a person receives Christ and we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that new person in Christ begins to form, so that, when we fall into the sinful nature we satisfy our flesh, but the new man in Christ grieves, because that new man is in agreement that God’s word is good and holy.
You cannot be in Chirst and not have the Holy Spirit in you. For the word of God says that the Holy Spirit is that seed of God that has been deposited in us as a guarantee of His promise. Furthermore, no one can be in Christ without the Holy Spitit dwelling in them, as they go hand-in-hand. You believe that you have to have evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you by speaking in tongues, yet the word of God says that not everyone has the same gifts. Not everyone speaks in tongues, but they have other gifts given by the same Spirit.
And as I said, it is not in keeping with Scripture to proclaim that there are two different gifts of tongues and by you proclaiming that unless one speaks in tongues, they don’t have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, you then destroy those who are new believers in Christ or who are weak in faith, because you destroy their faith in Christ who died for them for the sake of a gift. You may be experiencing activity of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that because others don’t speak in tongues that we are not filled with the Spirit as well. We cannot be saved nor be in Christ without the Holy Spirit dwelling in us! The Holy Spirit takes up residence in us the moment we receive Christ, then he desperses the gift or gifts according to His will. You cannot be in Christ nor belong to God unless the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you! Neither could anyone remain in Chist without the Holy Spirit. There is no next step for me or anyone else to take, except to continue being transformed into the image of the Son of God, by going from faith to faith, for that is why we were foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified.
“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified, thos he justified, he also glorified.”
(Rom.8:29-30)
I have not deviated from the word of G-d. I have shown you the scriptures. Just because the scriptures don’t fit with your understanding doesn’t make it a deviation. Speaking in tongues is the evidence of having received the Holy Spirit.
“There are five examples in the Bible of people receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:4; 8:17; 9:17; 10:44; 19:6). In three out of the five examples we are told that specific signs took place. In the other two examples, the manifestation of physical signs taking place are implied, but not mentioned. Based on these two cases we cannot build any solid evidence as to what should happen when someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. However, based on the other three examples we can build a good, solid case as to what should happen when someone is baptized in the Spirit…..Speaking in tongues is the physical, biblical evidence that one is baptized in the Holy Spirit. We should not settle for anything less than the scriptural evidence.
If you haven’t been baptized in the Holy Spirit, seek God about it and pray for it in faith. God never lets a thirsty soul go dry.”
http://www.tbm.org/tongues.htm
And….”DO ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES?
Someone may say, “How can you say that all Christians should speak in tongues considering the apostle Paul’s words, ‘Do all speak in tongues?’? (1 Corinthians 12:30).
In this passage, Paul is talking about public ministry gifts that are manifested in the church. He is not talking about tongues as the initial sign of the baptism in the Spirit, nor is he talking about tongues as a private, devotional, prayer language.
You can recognize this by simply looking at the language Paul uses concerning speaking in tongues. In this chapter he calls speaking in tongues “different kinds of tongues” (see 12:10,28). “Different kinds” means “not the usual.” The usual kind of speaking in tongues is a language no man understands or interprets. However, speaking in “different kinds” of tongues enables the speaker or someone else to recognize the meaning of the tongue and thereby interpreting it.
So when Paul ask the question, “Do all speak in tongues?”, he is referring to the public manifestation of tongues which enables a person gifted in interpretation to speak out the meaning of the tongue. Not all have been given this gift of “different kinds” of tongues.
In the fourteenth chapter of this epistle, Paul corrects the misuse of tongues in the church. He told them to stop the practice gathering “the whole church [so] everyone [can] speak in tongues” (v. 23). Notice carefully that the “whole church” was gathered and that “everyone” was speaking in tongues. This clearly shows us that everyone in the Corinthian church was speaking in tongues. Most of them should have allowed those gifted in the “different kinds” of tongues to exercise their gift, and the rest should simply “keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (v. 28).
Friend, I encourage you to seek the scriptural evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and to settle for nothing but the best.”
http://www.tbm.org/tongues.htm
Maybe this can explain better what it is I have been trying to explain:
“For the Christian to not be baptized in the Spirit is for him to not be able to go on to maturity in Christ. He will always be limited.
One of the arguments that theologians use to dissuade converts from being baptized with the Spirit is to claim that salvation is the same as the baptism in the Spirit. However, it is not. Salvation is always linked with “water” baptism, not the “Spirit” baptism. Jesus said, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). No mention of the necessity of being baptized in the Spirit, but water baptism is linked to salvation. Water speaks of cleansing, and this is a great picture of the sinner being cleansed from his sins. However the Spirit is the Person who gives “power to be a witness.” His job is to empower believers; this is different than saving believers.
The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. Jesus said that the world cannot receive the Spirit. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
“The World cannot accept him.” The Holy Spirit is the gift for the child of God, while Jesus is the gift for the world. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
Jesus belongs to the world. He is God’s gift to the world. You received Jesus while you were still in the world, but now, since you are no longer of this world, you can receive the Holy Spirit. This is a separate experience from salvation.”
http://www.tbm.org/what_is_the_baptism_in_the_spiri.htm
*Don, please make this a priority. The Holy Spirit has been pressing me on this. This was also confirmed by Pastor Wilkerson on https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/defending-the-wall/
*see post by Kitti
” Jesus said, “Your Father in heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:13). Notice that only those who can call God their father have a right to ask Him for the Holy Spirit. To be saved, you did not ask God to give you the Spirit; you asked Jesus to come into your heart. Now it’s time to ask for the Holy Spirit.
At Ephesus, the Apostle Paul asked some disciples this question: “Did you receive the Holy Spirit after you believed?” (Acts 19:2).”
http://www.tbm.org/what_is_the_baptism_in_the_spiri.htm
Hello Lyndsey,
Now, regarding the other issue that you brought up “Not ceasing in prayer, you said:
“Regarding the verse-pray without ceasing-How would you go about doing that-pray without ceasing/without stopping? How does one PRAY WITHOUT CEASING UNLESS they have the HOLY SPIRIT inside of them PRAYING IN TONGUES-PRAYING IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE-praying SUPERNATURALLY. To pray without ceasing on our own-without the Holy Spirit is IMPOSSIBLE! We are human. We have to eat; we have to sleep; we have to communicate to one another in our own language daily. So explain to me Don, how would you go about praying without ceasing!!?? And don’t tell me that this “just means to pray whenever you can”..blah blah blah….IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS-PRAY WITHOUT CEASING.”
Here is the actual verse:
“Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this the God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.”
(1Thes.5:17)
This Scripture is not saying to pray none-stop, 24/7, either by the Holy Spirit nor by our own efforts. What it is saying, is to not leave of from praying, that is, to continue in it as a common practice of our faith. There are those who proclaim to be Christians, but the extent of their prayer life is when they are having toubles or praying over their meals, which is good, but we need to continue in prayer about everything and giving thanks for everything. We should pray as often as we are led to pray.
The verse means to not be lax in regards to continueing in prayer as a common pratice, giving thanks always. What you are proclaiming is that the verse is saying that we must never cease in prayer, that is, there is no intermission in prayer, that it continually goes on 24/7 for the rest our lives and that is not what the verse is saying. And in that regards, you are correct, for that is impossible!
As I stated, the word of God does not differentiate between the gift of tongues. It is the same gift and there is no division between it. Also, as I said, the fact is that, when the Holy Spirit fell on others, their were those who also prophesied and so the absence of the gift of tongues does not egual no Holy Spirt in a believers life.
Now regarding what you said below:
“The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead. Jesus said that the world cannot receive the Spirit. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
Did you see anywhere in this Scripture that states that speaking in Tongues was a prerequesite in order to receive the Holy Spirit?
There is no other step for me to take, as I already have the Holy Spirit and I am using the gifts that He has given me. You on the other hand are not acting in love, because you elevate yourself above other believers, by claiming to speak in tongues and then saying, if you don’t have this gift, then you do not have the Spirit. I received the Holy Spirit at the time I received Christ, but I did not receive the gift of tongues, but I do have other gifts of the Spirit. And I would suggest that stop proclaiming this because as I said, you can detroy peoples faith by this teaching, especially the weak. The bottom line is, there is nothing in Scripture that says “Unless you speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit.”
By the way, it is deviation from the truth, if you are not teaching was is Scripture, specifically siting two forms of speaking in tongues. You sound like Tim Lahaye, who in his book “Revelation Unveiled,” where because there are 144,000 sealed in Rev.7 and then there are 144,000 mentioned in Rev.14 that there are two separate groups of 144,000, instead of understanding that the 144,000 in chapter seven are the same group seen in Chapter 14 after they have been caught up to heaven.
It is futile for us to continue discussing this, because I am going to stand firm on the Scriptures. Tongues was just one of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gave as a sign of them receiving the Holy Spirit and should not be restricted to the only way that a person can know that he or she is indwelt by the spirit. So, if you want to continue believing that, then you are free to do so, but I know that I have the Holy Spirit in me as do all true believers.
Don and Lyndsey
There seems to be some confusion here.
There is a difference between receiving the holy spirit at salvation and the gifts of the spirit.
Salvation is a prerequisite for receiving any further gift.
There are administrative gifts and power gifts.
God gives us what we need for the task he has assigned us to. So different people may have different gifts, although there is nothing wrong with prayer for more gifts if the intention is to serve God using those gifts.
The administrative gifts are less described, and the descriptions are scattered throughout the new testament. Examples of these are leadership gifts, like pastor, teacher, etc. Others have business gifts, which help in management. Others show charity and mercy.
The power gifts require the presence of the holy spirit first.
that is…the holy spirit has to be present before he will bestow more of himself into the person’s life.
the power gifts (1Cor 12) are word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, divers kinds of tongues, and interpretation of tongues.
The “need” for tongues is mainly for 2 reasons: witnessing to foreign people with different languages, and intercession for others during private prayer.
The early church all received the gift of tongues at Pentecost because it was intended for ALL of them to travel and witness to foreign speaking peoples.
Paul also received the tongues, as he traveled to the gentile nations. The other apostles also traveled. I understand, for example, that Thomas went to India. He wished that all would speak in tongues, as he did, maybe because he wished more people would go to the gentiles, as he was doing.
The expression “baptism of the holy spirit” is used to describe the outpouring of administrative or power gifts upon believers who already have the presence of the holy spirit from salvation. This is to enable them to do the Lord’s work.
so the comment:
does not make any sense.
The Lord is a gentleman. He will not bestow a gift upon someone who does not want it, or is interested in serving him a different way, with a different gift.
Some people stop at the salvation experience, and do not want any gifts. They are less developed, but they are still saved.
Others wish to serve, and the appropriate gift will be bestowed upon them, when they are ready, and ask for it.
Not everyone has all gifts. We are encouraged to seek the “best gifts” which is open to interpretation.
It would be nice if everyone had all the gifts, but so far, I have not seen it work that way.
I haven’t even begun to talk to him about the “gifts” spoken of in Corinthians. I am trying to explain that there is a 2nd baptism and that there is a difference between being baptized in water (Johns’ baptism) and the baptism in the Holy Spirit (spirit baptism WITH the evidence of speaking in tongues). He is getting confused with the “tongues” versus the “gift of tongues”. I think I was able to show the difference from giving him the scripture 1 Corinthians 14:4 (tongues edifies/builds up the believer individually while the “gift of tongues” edifies/builds up the Church-one is a prayer language between the believer and G-d while the other one is more along the lines of a prophetic word-thus saith the Lord as is what you experienced.
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/14-4.htm
And I am hoping he will see that there are 2 separate baptisms and tongues as the evidence of the 2nd baptism by giving him the scripture Acts 19:1-7
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit whena you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He (John)told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized intob the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tonguesc and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
My apologies for taking up most of this page on a somewhat different topic, however, I thought it interesting that it came about on the subject of the “anti-christ needing a “temple”.
Spiritually, our bodies are the temple for G-d and with the Holy Spirit taking up residence inside our bodies, as is what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is all about, then it would stand to reason that the Anti-christ also takes up residence inside a lot of bodies as well-not just needing a physical temple, but a spiritual one as well. Does that make sense?
Hi Marianne,
There is no confusion on my part regarding this issue. Here are the facts: Lyndsey has stated that unless one speaks in tongues, that a person does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. That is, she has made the gift of tongues manditory proof that the Holy Spirit dwells in a believer. No tongues, no Spirit! My stand is that, the gift of tongues at that time was the gift that the Holy Spirit used as outward proof of the validity of the gospel and to get the church going.
I also stated that, by claiming that unless one does not speak in tongues, that the Holy Spirit does not dwell in a person, that this is destructive to those in Christ, specifically to those who are weaker in faith or new Christians. Paul makes it perfectly clear that not all have the same gifts and the the gifts of tongues is not split into two separate purposes. What if someone is reading this kind of teaching and then goes and prays and prays for the gift of tongues, but never receives it, then what? Their faith has been destroyed, because now they believe that they will never have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them! It is also made clear that, it is the Holy Spirit that gives out the gifts according as he will, so-called power or otherwise. We don’t pick and chose, we ask and He decides for the edification of all.
Furthermore, the gifts of tongues is the speaking of different intelligible languages and its purpose is for unbelievers. This is why all of those at Penticost heard the Galileans speaking in all of their forein languages. And what was the result? 3000 were added to the church that very day. In fact, Paul refers to tongues as a lesser gift and gives rules and regulations for its use, because the Corinthians were abusing it.
I know of what I speak of. I am not an infant in regards to the word of God. The spirit indwells us at the moment we receive Christ, for it is written that we are led by the Spirit and not by the written code. I believe that those gifts served their purpose in establishing and building up the early church where there was no new testament handy to study the word of God from. You cannot be in Jesus Christ and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling you. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is simply the Holy Spirit administering gifts, which we have also been given in one form or another.
“Did you see anywhere in this Scripture that states that speaking in Tongues was a prerequesite in order to receive the Holy Spirit?”
What I said above makes perfect sense and infers exactly my meaning and that is that, there is no Scripture that states that, Unless you speak in tongues you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you nor is it inferred. Which is what the entire debate is about.
The person who receives Christ this very day will receive the Holy Spirit as promised and will receive whatever gifts the Spirit gives them. And that person has the same Spirit dwelling in them just as every believer does, but maybe not with the same gifts, but indwelt just the same.
In other words, their is not two groups of believers in Chist walking around, one without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and another group in Christ walking around that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Lyndsey was proclaiming that, those who have not spoken in tongues do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them on any level. And that was the reason for my objection and correction.
There is a lot of confusion on your part Don, unfortunately. Regarding your statement “because I am going to stand firm on the Scriptures.” You are standing “firm” on your INTERPRETATION of the scriptures-NOT what the scriptures actually state and this is very sad!
No, I am NOT “better than, just BETTER PREPARED”. And this is what I have been trying to get across to you. Obviously you are not reading what I have given to you.
Yes, there are 2 sets of believers out there-those without the Holy Spirit living INSIDE OF THEM and those with the Holy Spirit living inside of them. ***Those without the Holy Spirit living inside of them will unfortunately be ill prepared for what is to come-hence the whole reason for my trying to explain the IMPORTANCE of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You have also confused the “gift of tongues” with “tongues”. As I pointed out, the “gift of tongues” is for the UNBELIEVER and “tongues” is for the believer-to edify the believer. I have shown you many many times where it is in the scriptures and you still refuse to accept it, even tho it is right there in black and white-in the word of G-d. ***1 Corinthians 14:4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
And regarding upsetting someone who is a believer-they absolutely should know the TRUTH! Jesus promised those of us who would believe, the Holy Spirit, period. I have heard all sorts of explanations regarding pentecost-it is quite humorous but it gets old.
Regarding “The person who receives Christ this very day will receive the Holy Spirit as promised and will receive whatever gifts the Spirit gives them. And that person has the same Spirit dwelling in them just as every believer does, but maybe not with the same gifts, but indwelt just the same. ”
*I have shown you in the scriptures Don where it CLEARLY STATES that SALVATION and the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT are two SEPARATE events! How are you not getting this when it is right there in front of you-word for word-in the scriptures!
SIGH-what you are saying Don is not correct. First, you thought I was telling you that the Holy Spirit would be descending from Heaven instead of Jesus-how you got that I will never know and then you thought I was saying that unless you were baptized in the Holy Spirit you weren’t saved-I NEVER SAID THAT EITHER.
Why are you twisting what it is that I am explaining to you -I am NOT making this up as I go-I am directing/pointing you to the very scriptures that support this AND I have personally received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit-so I know what I am talking about (and NO this does NOT make me better than you or anyone, it simply makes me BETTER PREPARED).
What baffles me is why a person who loves G-d with all their heart, soul and mind would not want this gift that G-d offers-the gift being the BAPTISM of the HS, so as to avoid confusion.
Lets try this again: When we accept Jesus into our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, we are then saved-this is our salvation. We are then baptized in WATER FOR REPENTANCE-the WATER symbolizes the washing away of our sins. When this occurs, the Holy Spirit comes to be WITH US-He is now WITH US (notice the word WITH).
AFTER the above, we can then ASK for the Holy Spirit to live INSIDE OF US-INSIDE (notice the word INSIDE). This is what is referred to as the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit “comes upon you” or comes to live INSIDE OF YOU, it is an unmistakable experience-it is supernatural!!
The EVIDENCE of this experience is “tongues” (not necessarily the “gift of tongues” but “tongues” which is simply 1) the ability to pray in another language never learned before. The Holy Spirit is the one who chooses the language, you the believer simply yield to His presence. The REASON for “tongues” (not referring to the gift of tongues) is for a prayer language between the believer and G-d. It is given to us as a means to edify/build us up and to talk to G-d in whatever language HIS SPIRIT chooses.
*Being able to pray in tongues/another language chosen by the HS is always EVIDENCE of having received the Holy Spirit.
***”You see, the physical proof of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the same evidence that the disciples had: speaking in tongues. You may have other evidences as well, but the one evidence you should have is speaking in tongues.
There are five examples in the Bible of people receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:4; 8:17; 9:17; 10:44; 19:6).”
http://www.tbm.org/tongues.htm (if you would go to this website, it explains it further)
Now, the “gift of tongues” is where a believer, through the Holy Spirit, will speak in another language to the church or large group of people with an INTERPRETER. The “gift of tongues” is NOT your daily prayer language…it happens whenever the Holy Spirit has something to say to a large group of believers or non believers…it is “thus saith the Lord”-Marianne has experience with this happening to her-I do not. So, when first receiving the Baptism of the HS, don’t worry about the “gift of tongues” or even the “gifts” for that matter, just focus on Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit, the rest will come later and as the Holy Spirit so chooses. HOWEVER, fully expect to speak in another language soon after you receive Him!
So, to reiterate, the difference between “tongues” and the “gift of tongues” is this: *Tongues builds up the individual believer-helps the individual believer grow, while the GIFT of tongues builds up the church-helps the church to grow *
1 Corinthians 14:4
And further, addressing your arguement that implies that an individual will automatically become filled with the spirit upon conversion, I ask you this: If this were true, then why would Paul bother to ask this question to a set of believers in Acts 19:Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
In the above verses, it clearly shows that there are 2 separate baptisms!!
And finally, NO, you do NOT have to speak in tongues to be saved-I never said this nor did I imply it.
“Salvation does not depend on tongues. Speaking in tongues does not save you. Christ saves you through accepting Him as your Lord and Savior (John 3:16). Speaking in tongues comes when you accept and receive the Holy Spirit into your life. This is a SEPARATE experience from salvation.
You wanted Scripture that proves the baptism in the Holy Spirit comes AFTER we are saved. (read) Acts 8:12-17 ”
http://www.tombrown.org/musti.htm
AND please notice what it says in verse 6: Acts 19:6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES and prophesied.
Acts 19 shows 2 things: 2 separate baptisms and tongues following the baptism of the HS.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT….”This baptism is so important that the Hebrew writer calls it the Elementary doctrines of Christianity. Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Heb 6:1-3) Before the Apostle could teach the deeper things of the Spirit, he gives us the list of the six beginning teachings about Christ, and on the list is instruction about baptisms. Notice the word baptisms is plural, because there is more than one baptism. ***For the Christian to not be baptized in the Spirit is for him to not be able to go on to maturity in Christ. He will always be limited.”
http://www.tbm.org/what_is_the_baptism_in_the_spiri.
Don, I don’t know you other than what I have read in your posts. You have a beautiful heart and an incredible love for our Father. As your sister in Christ, I am strongly urging you to move forward and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that you can “be all that you were meant to be” for Christ!
Once the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will then understand what I have been trying to tell you. If you are this charged for G-d within your own human capacity, you can’t even imagine how SUPERNATURALLY charged you will become after receiving the Holy Spirit into your life-living INSIDE OF YOU!!
The scriptures that you have been reading for 38 years will “come alive” and you will be given better understanding if not FULL understanding of all of the scriptures by means of the Holy Spirit. Think about that Don-the Holy Spirit is the one who wrote the Bible-who better to interpret/explain them to you then the very one who wrote them!
I will continue to pray for you to receive the baptism!!!
Scriptural Evidence to support the Baptism of the Holy Spirit:
Mark 16: 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; THEY SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES’;
Luke 4:1
Luke 11:13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 12:11
John 14:15
The Promise of the Holy Spirit
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
***Acts, the entire chapter speaks of the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:8 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:14….be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 19:
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “DID YOU RECIEVE the Holy Spirit whena you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “THEN WHAT BAPTISM DID YOU RECEIVE?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “JOHN’S BAPTISM WAS A BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized intob the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TONGUESc and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
***Acts 19:1-7 Clearly shows that there are 2 separate baptisms and that speaking in tongues comes AFTER the Holy Spirit baptism.
*** 1Corinthians, explains the spiritual gifts that come AFTER the baptism of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 6:19
1 Corinthians 14:4
1 Corinthians 12:7
Romans 5: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 8: 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (to be after the spirit and spritually minded comes from receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit)
Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF SO BE that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU
Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. (this sounds like the Holy Spirit is the one who will help us ascend to meet Jesus Christ in the air 🙂
Romans 8:26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 14:17
*When I did my research on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit before receiving him, I was also referred to Smith Wigglesworth and his book titled “baptism in the Holy Spirit”
Hi Lyndsey, Marianne and all,
This is in response to your e-mail:
Point:
Mark 16: 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; THEY SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES’;
Counter Point:
I agree that they did speak in Tongues, but nowhere in this verse does it proclaim that, unless you speak in tongues, that you do not have the Holy Spirit? All Jesus said is that, this is one of the signs that would follow those who believe in Him. But, what is not said here, which is what is assumed on your part, is that those who don’t speak in tongues don’t have the Holy Spirit. On top of that, Paul made if very clear that not all are apostles, not all have the gift of healing, not all have the gift of teaching, not all have the gift of tongues, etc, etc.
Point:
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
counter Point
None of these verses above state that unless you speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit. Also, here in verse 16 Jesus says, [I] will pray to the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter.
Point:
Acts 1:4O on one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Counter Point:
And they all did receive the promise of the Holy Spirit and without asking for Him I might add, but because of the Lord‘s promise. Again, nowhere in the verse above does it state that unless one speaks in tongues he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Point:
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Counter Point:
I agree that they were filled with the Holy Spirit, but again where in the verse is it written that unless you speak in tongues you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you? And by the way, where is your cloven tongue of fire?
Point:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Counter Point:
First of all, there is nothing mentioned about tongues in this verse, but it does mention prophecy, visions and dreams.
Point:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy
Counter Point:
Again, there is nothing mentioned about speaking in tongues or that without tongues that one is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Just a note, speaking in tongues has to do specifically with speaking in another known language, as was demonstrated at Pentecost. Prophecy has to do with proclaiming the truth of God’s word and also proclaiming future events.
Point:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Counter Point:
Everyone who is being baptized today, is being baptized into Jesus Christ, for how many people do you know that are being baptized into John’s baptism today? That would be, None. Notice that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is by “Promise.” In continuing, there is nothing here that states that without the speaking of tongues, one does not have the Holy Spirit.
Point:
Paul said, “JOHN’S BAPTISM WAS A BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized intob the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TONGUESc and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
Counter Point:
When I was baptized, it was in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit and not in John’s baptism of repentance. No one today is being baptized under the baptism of John.
Furthermore, when he placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit made it know by the outward sign of speaking in tongues, but again, not speaking in tongues does not equal no Holy Spirit. It was just one of the outward signs that he used.
Point:
Acts 19:1-7 Clearly shows that there are 2 separate baptisms and that speaking in tongues comes AFTER the Holy Spirit baptism.
Counter Point:
“When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.” (Acts 19:6-7)
Once again, tongues was the outward sign that they had received the Holy Spirit, but they also prophesied. So now, shall we also say that, unless one prophesies, that he does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him? The Holy Spirit used these gifts because the were the most noticeable as proofs, but were not specific to having the Holy Spirit indwelling a person. These were used to jump-start the church as proof of the gospel of Jesus Christ with power. There is nothing in these verses that clearly shows two baptisms.
Point:
“1Corinthians, explains the spiritual gifts that come AFTER the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 6:19
1 Corinthians 14:4
1 Corinthians 12:7
Counter Point:
1Cor.3:16 – Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
There are no gifts even mentioned her and nothing here is mentioned that speaking in tongues is a requirement for God’s Spirit to live in us.
Point:
1Cor.6:19 – Don’t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with you body.
Counter Point:
If anything, this verse would support the fact that all who believe in Christ have the Holy Spirit, simply because, it is stated that those who were bought with a price are the ones with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Also, there are no gifts mentioned here in association to having the Holy Spirit.
Point:
1Cor.14:4 – He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
Counter Point:
I don’t know why you are listing this, because it does not support what you are claiming. In fact, it is showing the opposite in that, speaking in tongues is not specific to being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Is it one of the signs, yes! But, it is not specific to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In fact, to show that tongues was a lesser gift, Paul goes on to say “He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues.” Tongues, as well as all the other gifts were for the purpose of edifying the Church, where you have it as a must in order to have the Holy Spirit.
Point:
1Cor.12:7-11 – Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and He gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Counter Point:
I couldn’t agree more! These verses also do not support your claim that unless you speak with tongues that a person is not filled with the Holy Spirit, in fact, it proves the opposite. Tongues is just one of the gifts that is meted out by the Holy Spirit, but not specific to receiving the Holy Spirit, that is, it is just one of the outward signs that the Holy Spirit used, and that, because it was most noticeable. Notice all the other gifts that are also said to be manifestations of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person, which I might add are listed before tongues and interpretation of tongues. As stated earlier, Paul said that he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues. There is only one gift of tongues and not two, for Scripture does not support this.
Point:
Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. (this sounds like the Holy Spirit is the one who will help us ascend to meet Jesus Christ in the air 🙂
Counter Point:
I will agree that the Holy Spirit takes part in this, but your claim was that it is the Holy Spirit that was performing it solely and my point was that Jesus is the one descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the dead and living in Christ being resurrected and caught up. I’m sure that they work in unison.
so tell me, what do you think about the following:
The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life–only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
(Jn.1017-18)
so, did the Father raise Him up or did He raise himself up, seeing that He says “I have authority to take it up again? Just an observation.
Why don’t you just ask for the baptism in the Holy Spirit? I have shown you the scriptural evidence-just because it doesn’t fit into your “theology” doesn’t make it any less real or true.
Also, I am not merely “debating” or “throwing an idea out there” just for the sake of discussion”….I have personally received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. And I have experienced some of the gifts found in Corinthians. Also, Marianne has also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and she has also experienced some of the gifts found in Corinthians, with the “gift of tongues” being one of them. Suffice it to say, The baptism is something that we are obviously very familiar with. I can’t help but consider that perhaps it is because of my gender that you are having a hard time accepting these truths. I pray not.
Finally, I was trying to HELP YOU by letting you know about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but you have chosen to argue, debate and unfortunately deny this beautiful gift that G-d has offered. This is between you and G-d. The proof is right in front of you.
*When I first heard of this second baptism, when I was 21, I did my research and I trusted the scriptures and I trusted G-d. I wanted everything and anything He had to offer. I would have most assuredly lost out if I had made the decision to simply argue about it instead of actually looking into it.
So once again, receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not make one “better than”, but it most definitely makes one “BETTER PREPARED”. And that is what each and every believer will need in these last days. If you want to depend upon yourself and your human capabilities, that is your choice. I thank G-d that I don’t have to because “Greater is HE that is IN ME then he that is in the world”!
“Why should we speak in tongues?”
Mark 16:15-17 He [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues.
The verses above are an excerpt of Mark’s account of Jesus’ Great Commission. It was Jesus Himself who initiated the subject of speaking in tongues in the New Testament. He said that it would be a “sign” that would accompany believers as they went into all the world and preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
• So our first reply to the question “Why speak in tongues?” is that Jesus endorsed the practice. In fact, Jesus said that speaking in tongues is one of the signs that “will accompany those who believe.”
http://www.jimfeeney.org/speakingintongues.html
To summarize, why then should we encourage speaking in tongues today, in the 21st century?
• Jesus said that believers would (Mark 16:17).
• Tongues certify and give evidence that the person is baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 10:44-46; 11:15-17; 19:1-6).
• Speaking in tongues is a good opportunity to submit to the Holy Spirit’s leading (Acts 2:4).
• Tongues demonstrate the reality of God in the speaker’s life (Acts 11:15-18).
• The baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, opens the door to other gifts of the Spirit (Acts 19:2,6).
• Tongues with interpretation are “for the [church’s] common good” (1 Corinthians 12:7, 10).
• Speaking in tongues is speaking to God (1 Corinthians 14:2a).
• Praying in tongues is praying “in” or “with the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 14:2, 14-15).
• The speaker in tongues is edified (1 Corinthians 14:4).
• The apostle Paul expressly approved of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5a, 39).
• A tongue followed by an interpretation edifies the church (1 Corinthians 14:5, 12-13).
• Tongues allow us a balanced prayer and worship life, both with the spirit and with the understanding (1 Corinthians 14:14-15).
• When speaking in tongues, you may be giving thanks well to God (1 Corinthians 14:16-17).
• Speaking in tongues was apostolic practice (1 Corinthians 14:18 and at Pentecost).
• Tongues with interpretation are an appropriate, strengthening part of an edifying church service (1 Corinthians 14:26).
From the bottom of my heart, I commend to you the words of the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:5: “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues.”
http://www.jimfeeney.org/speakingintongues.html
DOn
I do not see where Lyndsey said you don’t have the holy spirit because you don’t speak in tongues.
I thought she made it clear that the salvation and the water baptism is different from, and precedes the baptism of the holy spirit, which usually is confirmed by the speaking in tongues.
There are 2 baptisms…one is of repentance, leading to salvation, and the other one is of “fire” and leads to further ministry.
Hey Marianne,
I did say that tongues is evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I gave scripture to support that which shows that when the Holy Spirit was given, they always spoke in tongues as a result. Tongues is always evident because it is our prayer language-this how we are able to “pray in the spirit”
I am also trying to explain (as it was explained to me and shown thru the scriptures) that when one is saved that the Holy Spirit comes to be WITH that person. But in order to have the Holy Spirit residing on the INSIDE of the believer, the believer needs to receive the second baptism-what you refer to as “fire”-also referred to as the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17…the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him (the Holy Spirit), because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him (saved believer), for he lives WITH you and will BE IN YOU.
I have also explained the difference between “tongues” and the “gift of tongues”.
-Tongues being given after receiving the 2nd baptism as our prayer language and personal edification/building up.
-Gift of Tongues being given, again, after receiving the 2nd baptism but to be used to edify the Church as a whole; more along the lines of prophecy or “thus saith the Lord”. It is my understanding that when the Gift of tongues is being demonstrated, there will also be an interpreter. Not everyone receives the “gift of tongues” but everyone receives “tongues” because it is our prayer language….our way of being able-supernaturally- to “Pray without ceasing” and again, to “pray in the Spirit”.
1 Corinthians 14:1-4 Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue (prayer language) edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
*Maybe you can explain your experience to help make this more clear-I can see where it can be confusing.
Hi Marianne, Lyndsey, all,
Lyndsey said:
“your approach to the scriptures is merely academic-without spiritual discernment which ONLY the Holy Spirit is able to give. When you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit WITH YOU. You are then baptized in water FOR REPENTANCE. But as the scriptures CLEARLY STATE, there is another Baptism which comes AFTER the water baptism and that is the one of the Holy Spirit were HE COMES INSIDE OF YOU.”
I have been contending that this is false. You don’t have the Holy Spirit as a side companion when you first receive Christ and then afterwards you receive another Baptism of the Holy Spirit where He indwells inside you. And she is claiming that the only proof of the indwelling is by speaking in tongues, ergo, if one does not speak in tongues, then, no Holy Spirit is indwelling you. This would mean that for every person who has not spoken in tongues, then they do not have the Holy Spirit residing in them, but He is only an outer companion.
I say, if you have spoken in tongues, great, but don’t tell me that because I haven’t spoken in tongues, that I don’t have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, which would also infer that I do not have any gifts of the Spirit. Which brings me to my next proof of Scripture:
“Those who obey His commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (Jn.3:24)
Now, according to Lyndsey, speaking in tongues is the specific proof of receiving the of the Holy Spirit. That is, if one has not spoken in tongues, then one does not have the Holy Spirit dwellng inside them, He is outside of me, but not inside me. Scripture here in 1st John says that the Holy Spirit that God gave us, lives in us because we obey His commands and this is the proof that we have that He lives in us. In short, John is reassuring his readers that by obeying God’s commands the Spirit of God lives in them. According to Lyndsey, since I have not spoken in tongues, the Spirit does not dwell inside of me and if he does not dwell in me, then according to John, I cannot belong to God unless His Spirit is living im me. I bring this up because at one point I mentioned that she said “If we don’t have the Spirit, then we have no salvation,” But she protested and said that she did not say that, but that is exactly what John is saying here. If the Spirit of God is not dwelling inside you, then you do not belong to God.
Now,what are His commands? He specifies them in the previous verse, which are to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.
(I John 3:23)
I would also point out that, according to this Scripture, that speaking in tongues is not a requiremnet for knowing that the Spirit of God lives in us. How can we be assured that His Spirit does live in us? Because we believe in His Son Jesus Christ whom He sent and we love one another.
All Christians must have the Spirit of God dwelling in them in order to belong to God; If the Spirit does not live in them, then they don’t belong to God. The Holy Spirit is God’s seed that remains in us so that we cannot continue in sin. Without the Spirit of God in us, our flesh would not be waring against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh! We would be just like an unbeliever. At that time in the beginning of the Church, tongues was just an outward sign to those who received the Holy Spirit, but not the only tell-tale proof. It was just the most obvious as a proof for the purpose of building up the church of this new covenant in Jesus Christ. I have other gifts of the Spirit, but tongues is not one of them.
I am not against anything that Lyndsey says she has experienced, but when I hear any false teachings, I am moved by the Spirit to contend, exhort and rebuke just as Scripture teaches.
Don
The “WITH” and “IN” concepts are what they teach in church to try to explain the 2 baptisms.
I would agree that the holy spirit will not “hang around on the outside” of us when we are saved, and “maybe go inside of us” later IF we make “progress.”
What I was trying to say earlier, is that the baptism of the holy spirit (baptism of fire) is more of an expression, but the baptism of water is a physical act. Many have a hard time explaining the difference.
I would consider them separate experiences.
Tongues is just one sign of salvation, since one has to be saved first, and have the holy spirit, to receive the tongues.
As I said before, there are a list of “gifts” in 1 Cor 12.
Tongues is one of them. I happen to have this gift, but as you can see, I have an evangelistic, teaching, and missionary focus. I interact with people from around the world and I have a prayer request list. There are over 300 people on it now.
If I did not have the prayer language, and tongues, I would not be able to get through that list each day, and be able to pray for each person. I would get too exhausted on my own limited power, and limited in my words for each person.
There may also be a future time when I will travel over seas. I am not sure how the tongues will be used or not used at that time. I guess I will wait and see.
According to your view Don, then you would have to disregard this scripture all together, along with many others: Acts 19:… 2He (Paul)said unto them, HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YOU BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism (water baptism for repentance). 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; AND THEY SPOKE WITH TONGUES, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.
There is no false teaching here-not from me. I have shown the scriptural evidence and I speak from personal experience. Of everyone that I know who has received the 2nd baptism, of which I have shown to be true as evident by the scriptures, have ALL SPOKE IN TONGUES.
Yes, you are saved. Yes, the Holy Spirit comes to the believer to be with him/her upon receiving and confessing Jesus. But unless the believer goes the extra step-2nd baptism, the Holy Spirit will remain alongside the believer-never indwelling them.
Something to consider: if the baptism/receiving of the Holy Spirit was automatic at the time of salvation (as you have so indicated), then WHY did Paul ask the question, “HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YOU BELIEVED?”
If this was “automatic” then why would Paul be asking? Wouldn’t it just be assumed that they did since they were saved?
I am not going to debate this with you any longer-it isn’t up for debate, especially since the Scriptures speak for themselves. It is obvious that you would rather “be right” in your own eyes rather than take G-d at His word. And even going as far as accusing me of false teaching! The irony is that the Holy Spirit is the one who has pressed this upon me to share with you-how funny is that!
Regarding 1John 3:24, the writer is talking about G-d-we are in him and he in us when we believe in his son Jesus Christ. Further, it is my understanding that the writer was talking to the disciples who had at this point had already received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost back in Acts-this is why he stated “by the Spirit he gave us”.
And regarding “At that time in the beginning of the Church, tongues was just an outward sign to those who received the Holy Spirit, but not the only tell-tale proof….for the purpose of building up the church of this new covenant in Jesus Christ.”
*Tongues has always been and will continue to be the Evidence of having received the 2nd baptism. It was NOT just to “start a church”. Over 2000 years later, believers are still receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the “tell-tale proof” of speaking in tongues. Of course they will speak in tongues because the Holy Spirit is speaking through them, now that He is inside them because this is the Holy Spirit’s language/tongue. The gifts that follow are given by the power of the Holy Spirit residing in them. For example, those with the gifts of healings often describe electricity and heat inside their hands. Others have described just walking into a room and people falling down under the power of the Holy Spirit’s presence. Peter, in the bible, was finding out that many people were being healed just by his shadow! Marianne has a post on this. The Holy Spirit was so strong a presence inside of him that even his shadow was healing people. These are just a few examples of other tell-tale proofs of what happens after receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
These gifts are supernaturally given by the Holy Spirit. These are not gifts that are present within our own genetic makeup.
A doctor is “gifted” per se in being able to humanly understand the symptoms of his patient and prescribe treatment accordingly in order to “heal” them or at least make them feel better.
A spirit filled believer (someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit) may find himself feeling electricity and heat in his hands whenever they are around sick people and by laying hands on the sick person, they are witnessing and feeling the power of G-d coming through them to heal that sick person. This is what is called the “gifts of healings”. The believer is the vessel in which the Holy Spirit’s power and gifts can come through.
“Why don’t you just ask for the baptism in the Holy Spirit?”
Because I aleady have been when I received Jesus Christ, why would I want to ask for someting that already have? You believe this because when Paul asked them, “What baptism did you receive” they said “John’s baptism,” and that is why they had not received the Holy Spirit, because they only were baptized with John’s baptism, but had not received Chist. I was not baptized with John’s baptism and received the Holy Spirit when I received Christ, but I did not speak in tongues when it took place.
Did you feel electricity and/or heat? These two will often times accompany the manifestation/presence of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an unforgettable experience. And you would also have the ability to pray in the spirit-tongues. Ask G-d to help you understand what it is that I am trying to explain….ask Him for your prayer language.
As another proof that the Spirit of God takes up residence inside of us by receiving Christ alone, I will use the Scripute that you used to claim that we are resurrected with the help of the Holy Spirit:
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. (this sounds like the Holy Spirit is the one who will help us ascend to meet Jesus Christ in the air 🙂
Now, according to you, those who have not spoken in tongues, have not received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that is, He is outside of us. The Scripture above states that, when the resurrection takes place, it is by the Holy Spirit that dwells in you. How could we then, who according to you, do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us, be raised up in the resurrection if He is in fact not dwelling inside of us? We would be believers in Christ, but because we did not speak in tongues, then we do not have the Spirit and therefore we cannot be resurrected.
my first thought would be that this would indeed concern me if I was a believer who did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside. Within my limited understanding, I would assume that G-d would then pour out his spirit to be inside all of his children so that they are able to be ascended when Jesus returns. Only G-d knows how He is going to do this and all I have to go on is what was shown/demonstrated to me in the dream He gave me. In the dream, I felt the same “electricity” (this is the only thing I know to compare to) go through my body from head to toe as I was also being lifted. I recognized that this was the same feeling I experienced when I received the Holy Spirit. It was pretty cool.
This morning, the Holy Spirit explained to me why tongues is always present after receiving Him. The reason why tongues is always evident after receiving HIM/the Holy Spirit is because this is HIS LANGUAGE-NOT OURS. The Holy Spirit is a person and He is the 3rd part of the Trinity. When the Holy Spirit “comes upon you” or “dwells WITHIN you”, you, the believer, are HEARING HIM TALK-this is why we hear “syllables” in our mind after receiving Him. When we “pray in the spirit” we are yielding to the Holy Spirit who is speaking in HIS LANGUAGE or Languages. Speaking in tongues is simply the HOLY SPIRIT TALKING IN HIS LANGUAGE/TONGUE.
So, to say that we have been filled with the HS without the evidence of tongues or simply put, hearing His language/hearing Him speak is not correct and is impossible.
My personal example is this: I can hear the Holy Spirit praying in His language in my mind while I can also think about my grocery list in my language-English. I can also type this post in my language while “praying in the Spirit”-the Holy Spirit praying in His Language.
Tongues, simply put, is the Holy Spirit speaking in His language-it comes with Him!
John 16:13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
John 14:26
Hey Don,
Remember John 14:17…the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But YOU KNOW HIM, FOR HE LIVES WITH YOU and WILL BE IN YOU.
It interesting to note that those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them are also able to SENSE the Holy Spirit in others or around others. I sensed the Holy Spirit by reading some of your posts…I have no idea where you are, but the Holy Spirit was coming through in your posts. This is why I asked you if you had received the Holy Spirit not long ago, if you remember.
Since you haven’t spoken in tongues-heard the Holy Spirit praying in his language then this tells me that you have the Holy Spirit WITH you. He now wants to dwell inside of you. He knows you!! And He obviously has something very awesome in store for you that He would reach out to you in this way so as to explain what you need to do next.
It is simply a yielding on your part…on every believers’ part. When I yield to Him, amazing things take place. He will answer my questions before I can even finish them sometimes. He has warned me of dangerous people and situations-an example is found on my blog site-
http://www.ageofgrace.wordpress.com
When He dwells inside of us, we get to hear His audible voice, either in our language and/or in His language, which is what is called “tongues”. It is amazing!! It is SUPERNATURAL.
The moment I received the Holy Spirit I knew and felt for the first time how very real the supernatural realm is. I knew how very real G-d is. All those years of just going by FAITH was so richly rewarded with the incredible and unforgettable presence of His Holy Spirit!! I had this overwhelming LOVE for Jesus Christ-I was IN LOVE WITH HIM for the first time in my life.
Soon after, I started experiencing intense emotions that were a bit overwhelming at times. I figured out that I was literally FEELING the emotions felt by the Holy Spirit who of course comes from our Father. Watching the news took on a whole new meaning-through this experience, I learned that our Father is truly saddened and heartbroken over all the evil and horrible things that are happening-and this was 22 years ago-it has only worsened since then.
Other gifts came about soon after as well which I won’t go into here but have on other posts. I have learned that they come and go as they are needed for any particular situation.
I pray that you are able to get past some of your preconceived ideas and thoughts and are able to move forward in asking our father, in Jesus Name, for this beautiful gift/person, His Holy Spirit. He loves you and has something very special indeed in store for you and you will need HIM in order to accomplish whatever it is.
Zechariah 4:6 Not by might, nor by power, but by MY SPIRIT saith the Lord
*It isn’t by our human capabilities-our bodies will ultimately fail us
Lyndsey
I think people can feel compassion and God’s heart without speaking in tongues.
I agree. I was just describing an experience that took place soon after I received the baptism. It was rather intense and “different” then what is usually felt.
As I was telling Don, this morning the Holy Spirit explained to me that tongues is simply HIS language. When believers are speaking or praying in tongues they are simply yielding to the Holy Sprit and allowing him to come through-to pray and speak in His language-we are the vessel. And this is why “tongues” is always evident after “the Holy Spirit comes upon us”-tongues, which means languages, is the “tongue/language” of the Holy Spirit-and He knows all languages, including the language of Angels and of Heaven.
The Holy Spirit, once He dwells inside of us, never leaves us or forsakes us and His language/voice never leaves as well. So, I guess we can conclude that “tongues” per se is not a gift-it simply accompanies the person who speaks the language-in this case-the Holy Spirit. That is my understanding as it was explained to me by Him.
Lets say I invited a person from France to come and live with me. The person comes into my house to live and being French, this is the language of which they speak and this is what I hear as long as they live with me. The person from France can leave but fortunately the Holy Spirit never leaves and so we are always able to hear Him speak and pray in His language-what we call “tongues”.
But you are making it sound like Don cannot experience the presence of the Holy Spirit unless he speaks in tongues.
Lack of tongues does not mean the holy spirit is missing “in” the person. There is too much emphasis on WITH and IN….
Yes, the lack of “tongues” does mean that the person did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Tongues is what comes FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT-this is HIS LANGUAGE.
Did the disciples speak in tongues BEFORE they received the Baptism? BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given? No, they did not. Did they receive Power BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given? No, they did not.
Receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the next step, AFTER salvation, so Salvation is not depending upon this baptism, as Don had originally misunderstood before. I think too much emphasis is being placed on “tongues” when it is simply a language spoken by the Holy Spirit. How do we know that we have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? well, aside from His supernatural presence, the tangible evidence is hearing HIM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE-“tongues”.
And the “WITH” and the “IN” comes from this verse: John 14:17…the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But YOU KNOW HIM, FOR HE LIVES WITH YOU and WILL BE IN YOU.
When we are saved, accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, the Holy Spirit comes to be WITH US.
Now, what about that part of the verse that says “and will be IN YOU”. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit-this is what comes afterward-when we ask for it.
I am reminded of your book Marianne, where you were describing the dreams you had of the Holy Spirit…remember where He was in the water and wanted to be in the boat? This is the “with” and the “in”
look again…I was talking about the presence of God, or the holy spirit, not the baptism of the holy spirit.
Don has the presence of the holy spirit, even if he does not speak in tongues.
In an earlier post you indicated only someone with the baptism of the holy spirit ( tongues) could feel the emotions of the holy spirit. This is not true. Anyone with the presence of the holy spirit can feel compassion, sorrow, grief over sin.
Marianne,
I never INDICATED anything-I was simply describing what I had personally experienced AFTER receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Your experience was different than mine but we both have the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues-which is simply, AGAIN, the Holy Spirit speaking in HIS LANGUAGE.
This is really getting ridiculous. I have presented the scriptural evidence. I have described my PERSONAL experience. If Don doesn’t “get it” at this point, then there is nothing more that I, being human, could possibly continue to say to help. This has to be between the believer and G-d.
If Don or any other believer never receives the 2nd baptism they are truly missing out!
The Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus to “all whom G-d will call” Acts 2:39
For me, PERSONALLY, it wasn’t enough for the Holy Spirit to just be WITH ME. I wanted everything that G-d had to offer. I asked Jesus for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and in that moment my life was permanently changed.
I am not going to get into a debate or argument surrounding the Holy Spirit-that is absurd and does nothing but take away from who He is and how beautiful the experience can be when receiving Him for the first time to come live INSIDE of you.
This is now between Don and G-d.
Lyndsey, Marianne and Don;
This was an excellent discussion and I think you wrapped it up well. I want to throw my two cents in (and that’s all it’ worth) on th subject. I can’t write so guess what? Here’s an article on what I believe:
This is addressed to Tim’s concerns about our wanting and helping to bring about a third Temple. I don’t believe we can stop it or should. That shouldn’t be our focus. It definitely is a subject a lot of people are talking about and are interested in.
http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn13.htm
Building a Home for the Antichrist
In the church there are new believers and mature believers as well as infants in understanding the word of God. When it comes to Bible prophecy we often lack knowledge more than in any other area.
Last night I watched Benny Hinn on This is Your Day program telecasted from Israel (Nov.18, 2003). He had a Rabbi on his program and I was basically stunned (but not surprised) by what I heard. In fact I expected something like this to happen as he has made statements on prophecy before that were not only suspect but leading to a very different concept of end times (some which involve him personally).
Rabbi Chaim Richman is also associated with the Temple Institute of Jerusalem, which is “dedicated to every aspect of the Biblical commandment to build the Holy Temple of G-d on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem” (full text at http://www.templeinstitute.org/about.html). The temple institute which has built more than 60% of the implements for the Jewish temple (including the high priests garment now being worked on).
I have nothing personal against the Rabbi whom I know believes in what he and others are doing is the right thing. But they are doing this without the understanding of the Messiah who came therefore do not fully understand the implications of what they are endeavoring to do in their fulfilling Bible prophecy. What I do expect is more from believers in Jesus.
While the Temple Institute’s short-term goal is to “rekindle the flame of the Holy Temple in the hearts of mankind,” its long-term goal is to “do as much as possible to bring about the building of the Holy Temple in our time” (ibid.).
The Temple Institute also provides research, publications, educational materials and conferences to promote its efforts. Rabbi Chaim is also the Founder of “Light to the Nations” (an organization which seeks to build a bridge between Jews and Christians). The temple institute has produced a 2004 Jerusalem Temple Calendar to aid in the funding of the Temple by Christians in the world (with pictures of the instruments of the temple). Hinn has made the Calendar available to Christians– through his ministry–for a gift of $35.00. Quite a steep price for a calendar no matter how well done. I can only wonder how much is going to the Temple institute and to Hinn’s ministry. Hinn at the end of his program elicited people to “Call the 800 number on the screen and make sure to get this calendar today.” “You going to see in it the instruments that have been prepared, by the temple institute 60% are ready to go, wow, to God be the glory.” While we can be excited seeing God’s plan unfold this is not something to give God blessing for.
Hinn introduced the Rabbi from the Temple institute in Jerusalem on his program and said, “Saint’s I have news for you, the Lord is coming.” People cheered. However, what is presented throughout this broadcast makes me and others wonder what exactly what he meant by this.
He calls up with him Joe Van Koevering of “God’s News Behind the News” who stated he met Rabbi Chaim Richman. Van Koevering states: “The temple institute and the man you are about to hear from pioneered a number of years ago with a passion to see the temple rebuilt in its proper place.” That he wants to see the coming of messiah. Hinn breaks in saying: “By the way this is the first time we have a rabbi on this is your day, so this is historic today.” This is true, as Hinn has had many Arab and Muslim representatives on his program before (Hinn is Arab), but never a Rabbi. Van Koevering explains that “he is not what we would call a messianic rabbi as some rabbis are, Hinn breaks in again to say “but he is a family member” Koevering affirms “he is our brother and God’s hand is upon him…”
Rabbi Richman is not a Messianic Jew, yet both Van Koevering and Hinn recognize him as a “brother.” Certainly no true Jewish organization that takes upon itself a task like this one would knowingly have a believing Rabbi work for them.
Van Koevering said he is thrilled for the Rabbi to be on the program “with all of us crazy wild Christians and talk about the coming of Messiah.” Hinn breaks in “Well because we believe the same thing, look, we are part of the Olive tree, right.”
Do we ALL believe the same thing? It was clear the Rabbi is waiting for Messiah but which one? Because the Bible says the false one comes first and makes his home in the rebuilt temple.
Although the Rabbi had a lot of things correct he was missing the New Testament revelation of the Messiah and the order of events. What is disturbing is that Hinn and his audience were in agreement, as if the New Testament had nothing else to say on this.
Posted on Google search engine is Rabbi Chaim Richman’s response to a letter written to him concerning Jesus as Messiah -“ I am including a list of Biblical verses that I would like you to look at, please also see Matthew chapter 24. Also the Psalms speak of many prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. I have a book with a better list – I will send it with this letter. Please take a look and see if Jesus was the Messiah. I would love to hear from you! Please feel free to write. Again I say that I hope that this letter did not offend you, however I must do what G-d requires of me. Thank you very much. (signed —)”
His response: “Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a part of G-d, or Divine in any way, more than any other person. No indication of this can be found in the Old Testament, since this is not a Jewish concept.
“We do not accept the notion that Scripture “foretells” that G-d would robe Himself in flesh. We believe that this idea is the very embodiment of idolatry”
“The reason why Jews like myself do not accept Jesus as the messiah is a very basic one – we do not see that he fulfilled any of the requirements for the job. If he never qualified, it is not even a question of rejection. G-d outlined these requirements in the Bible. The identity of the messiah is not up to you or me; it is up to his performance to prove” (Rabbi Chaim Richman, “A Jewish View of the Messiah.”
‘’FOR THE NOTION THAT THE MESSIAH DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH THESE THINGS UPON HIS APPEARANCE, AND THEREFORE MUST RETURN A SECOND TIME, DOES NOT EXIST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. WHEREVER THESE THINGS ARE FORETOLD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, WE ARE TOLD THAT THE MESSIAH COMES AND DOES THESE THINGS – ONCE” (The full text at http://members.aol.com/baryeh/richman.html). [research on this done by Bud Press — fearless5199@yahoo.com)
Clearly we do not all believe the same thing as Hinn abruptly put it.
Rodney Levi the Rabbis assistant was brought up and after a bit of smoozing where he says he watches Hinn’s program every day and likes the way here dresses. He states, “it is blessing to work with him (Rabbi Richman) and take part of this important mission… Everyone has to take part of this prophecy… together we can do something real for our future for the peace of the world…”
Certainly peace is on everyone’s mind. To bring peace will be part of the false messiahs platform, even the “peace of Jerusalem.” But building this temple will not bring peace, in fact it will be useful in a false peace that will deceive many (1Thess. 5:3; Rev.6:4).
Hinn calls up the Rabbi and tells his people that we are not just living in the last days “but the last moments. We are so close” “I am so convinced we are so very close to the coming of the Messiah.” Again what Messiah? The one who occupies this temple is not the right one. We have to remember that it is this Messiah that Hinn said not too long ago would personally show up in his crusades.
The Rabbi spoke on Jerusalem and its significance in the Bible and how God has used Jerusalem in history and it is the center of human history, he is certainly correct. And we as Christians should support Israel as a nation and people but should we participate in their rebuilding of the temple?
Yet there were some erroneous statements of Jerusalem such as “ the word Jerusalem is synonymous with everything that is right and good in the world.” This is not exactly true, even in the Old Testament God had proved that Jerusalem was not faithful at times. In Isaiah 1:21: The God of Israel says “How is the faithful city become a harlot!” This is Jerusalem, the city of God, called Zion; she become a prostitute. In the New Testament Jesus the Messiah wept of Jerusalem and their rejection of him as Messiah, not knowing the time of their visitation. It seems the Church would be making a similar mistake by following what Hinn is presenting, as I will explain.
While we are in agreement that to be on the side of Israel is to be on the side of the God of Israel (this is Biblical – Gen.12). We must be able to distinguish what Israel is doing for God and what they are not. We are indeed to pray for the peace of Jerusalem but this prayer can only be answered with the Messiah coming, not by a peace treaty (a false one) being signed with their enemies and a rebuilt temple to resume sacrifices.
The Rabbi went on to explain how the temple is the central theme of the Jewish faith. This too is no longer valid from a Christian perspective. The Messiah is the focus of our faith, the temple was only a temporary shadow of him, the true substance. Of course from the modern Rabbis’ perspective this is not true, but it is from the New Testament believers perspective (2 Cor.3). So we are NOT in agreement on this at all. The book of Hebrews is a commentary on Leviticus (among other things) and compares all the things of the law, Christ showed he is superior to what God gave through Moses. When Jesus Christ died, the veil, through which the high priest entered into the Holy of Holies once a year, was torn from top to bottom (Matt. 27:51). Heb. 9:26 “…but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb.7:27; 10:8-11) What they are approving of and asking Christians to support is making Christ’s sacrifice of no effect. It is the very thing book of Hebrews warns not to do.
The Rabbi said of the temple that, “We never received the cancellation order, not for that commandment and not for any commandments.” This again is based on the Old Testament covenant with Israel but from the New Testament perspective (covenant) it is not correct. The temple, the priesthood, the sacrifices and all the commands attached to it are no longer applicable to believers, be it Jewish or gentile.
He then spoke about the testimony of all the prophets bearing testimony that the “era is a time which is going to unite all of humanity in a true recognition and understanding of who God is.” Yes there will be a uniting but not under the true Messiah but a false one first (Rev.13), the signs can only be discovered from the New Testament revelation. It is this application that the Jews today miss even from the Old Testament because they deny the Messiah came before the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. The key reason for the destruction of the second temple was Israel’s rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. Jesus declared their house would be left desolate. Now Israel wants their temple back without their repenting of their rejection of the Messiah. Which puts them in a precarious position.
Why would the true Messiah have anything to do with this third temple? Does God want the temple rebuilt by man? He does not renew any command in the New Testament to rebuild it, especially before He comes. This is what happens when one has only the Old Testament without the Messiah, they are not able to see what has been accomplished. They are presenting the building of temple with the priests and sacrifices to be renewed, which God does not accept. The sacrifices will be resumed as Daniel prophecies (Dan. 9:27; Rev.11:1-2) but will also be cut off by the one who goes into the temple and desolates it (Dan.12:11).
Ezekiel also describe the priesthood and the sacrifices in Ez.44:1-46:24. This should be obvious to any student of the Bible that this is about the Millennium when the Messiah is physically on earth again (also Isa.56:6-7; 60:7 66:18 Jer.33:18 Zech. 14:16-21). Not rightly dividing the word on these issues can be crucial for ones end time view.
Would the apostle Paul or Peter approve of this building? Of course not, since Paul wrote about the one who would stand in the temple and desecrate it. We are also taught in the New Testament that we are now the temple, the body of Christ (1 Peter 2:5;1 Cor. 6:19). Christians do not need to seek to build temples made by hands because we are the temple made by His Spirit. No temple is authorized to be built until after the Messiah is physically on earth and cleanses all wickedness. First comes the false messiah who uses the rebuilt third temple. Scripture seems to uphold that he will help approve of it as will the people who act hastily (Isa.28:14-16). Israel will need permission to rebuild the temple, which will probably come by an agreement from both parties.
I do not want to get to far off the subject, as this program was loaded with postulations; much of this has to be explained and put in perspective of how wrong this is. For this is a temple built for God that God does not approve. This can’t be the temple by Solomon or Zerubbabel that were approved nor can this be the Millennial temple that the Messiah approves of. For God does nor require sacrifices or a priesthood at this present time, but faith, (specifically in the death and resurrection of the Son of God), we have a high priest and we have the final sacrifice. It is the faithful remnant that will NOT participate in the temple being rebuilt, for it ends in judgment. There is a fourth kingdom that devours the whole earth which Messiah destroys when he returns (Dan.2:40-43). What Ezekiel saw was the fourth temple referred to as the Millennial Temple. Ez. 45:1-8 describes to us a high mountain having a flat plateau, on its top that is 50 miles square the Millennial Temple will rest, being one mile square. It is obviously not located in the middle of the City of Jerusalem that we know of today. It is after the Messiah comes back and destroys the false one that there is a Millennial temple built that is approved, which is referred to in Isa.2:3.
Near the end of the program Hinn turned to the Rabbi to say “Yesterday when I was at the temple institute it was mentioned that in 2 Chron. 35:1,2,3 King Josiah gave an order that mentioned the ark. You said its been known that the ark never left Jerusalem…” The Rabbi proposes that it was never lost but hidden and that there are some who have always known exactly where it is. This is interesting, considering that it was not present in the time of Messiah. He proposed that the ark is in one of the chambers that Solomon built under the temple and he and others know exactly where it is and when the time comes it will be restored to the newly built temple.
The Rabbi also stated that the jar of manna, Aaron’s rod and the anointing oil are in the ark. However the Bible teaches when the temple was completed by Solomon and the ark was transferred from the tabernacle, “Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they had come out of Egypt ”(2 Chron. 5:10).
As far as finding the ark — what was missing in Jesus’ day will also be missing in the Millennium. Jer. 3:16-17 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore. “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.”
So any ark found or built can’t be the ark related to the temple that the Messiah will rule from when He comes. Jesus Himself is to reign from Jerusalem so there is no need for the ark.
As far as the third temple and its relationship to the Messiah in biblical prophecy, there are some very specific statements. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.”
Notice the order of events that Paul gives which also agrees with Jesus in Mt.24. The coming of the Lord does not come UNTIL the man of sin takes his place (which will be in the temple Mt.24:15). This tells us that the man of sin is coming first before the Messiah comes. This third Temple is built for the Tribulation period, and Jesus warns the Jews who will be living in the middle of the tribulation to flee because of what will take place in it (Matthew 24:16-22).
Lets sum up so far what we heard from Hinn’s program… The lord is coming back and that he would have something to do with this third temple now being built as the Rabbi explained …
Which Messiah is going to be in the third temple? Not Jesus whom we are waiting for. The false messiah comes and enters the rebuilt Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15). At a certain point he stops the sacrifices (Daniel 9:27) that are then practiced. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 “who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself he is God.”
2 Thessalonians 2:6 that reads: “and you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.” The Anti-Christ does not come looking as the Devil but as a lamb “he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon” (Revelation 13:11-12). In other words with great authority “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.” In other words, there will come a time where the power of Satan will not be restrained, having full strength he will perform signs and wonders unlike any modern man has seen before (Matthew 24:24). Both the false prophet and the Antichrist will be able to deceive everyone on the earth by their miracles. You can apply this as you see fit.
After Rabbis speech Hinn summed it up by telling his audience we must do something: “Ladies and gentleman its time we, the church not only begin to pray that the temple will be rebuilt its time we do something about it.” All this shows how biblically illiterate Hinn is, and his followers cannot spot it.
After the Rabbi giving an explanation of our part to play Hinn states: (the strength of these words needs to be seen instead of read) “In other words God will not do it without us.” “Its time we believers begin to pray the temple will be rebuilt, its in the word,” “…I believe God is about to give life to this dream of rebuilding the temple, and it will become reality, it’s the word of God. What part we will play we don’t know … I believe it’s important we all pray and seek God, and if God says do this, we’ll go do it.”
Yes it is in the word but its not a good thing, it is trap as the false prophet and the Antichrist will make use of it. Hinn has endorsed for Christians to help contribute to its building. What part you will play is important. This is where false teaching eventually leads to. On Hinn’s recommendation Christians who can’t tell the difference are now are going to contribute to help build the third temple which the false messiah (the one we know as Antichrist) will occupy. This type of action separates the faithless from the faithful; the question is: where will you stand?
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Now the part on the subject of “Tongues” and the Holy Spirit. I want to make it clear, I believe the gifts are for today. I attend a church where people speak in tongues, we just don’t emphasize it. Lyndsey has a passion for it. After I started learning about the Biblical Feasts and how prophectic they were, I wanted everyone to know about it. So I stopped celebrating Pagan, Christian holidays and set out to educate everyone about it. Did I convert anyone? No, they just accepted by beliefs. I had a passion for that, but I had to rethink the way I was going about it.
laughing…I have a “passion” for the Holy Spirit and this being His language, I just think it is very cool to hear Him pray 🙂 I mean who wouldn’t!?
I try my best to explain the 2nd baptism and I probably shouldn’t take it so personally when people don’t understand-I will try to do better. It’s just that I know, as you and marianne do as well, how very very important the 2nd baptism is and how the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Counselor will help us in these last days. For me, I would rather the Holy Spirit pray and intercede on my behalf and others then I would trust my own prayers and chosen words. There are just times when our own words are just not enough-especially if we are in a “panic” situation. 🙂
Vineyard and Calvary Chapel split over the subject of the Gifts. That’s how vineyard came about. Calvary Chapel puts emphasis on the word preceding the gifts and vineyard believe the gifts precede the Word. Here’s an web page about the split:
Introduction
The Vineyard Movement is a young movement that is ecumenical as well as International. It is an Armenian denomination. The Vineyard Movement is an extremely active charismatic organization which began in 1982. It is also known as the Third Wave, Signs and Wonders Movement, and the Power Theology. The mother church was the Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Anaheim, California and affiliated with John Wimber. The Vineyard Movement is part of the Association of Vineyard Churches also known as the AVC.
The Vineyard Movement belief is based on experience rather than Scripture. Vineyard Movement adherents and followers of John Wimber believe if it works, it must be from God. They use experience first, then create theology around the experience. They practice the philosophy of psychological and occult methodologies. They share a mystical view of spiritual warfare that states Christians can be possessed by demons. They also emphasize signs and wonders which consist of healings, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, slaying in the spirit, shaking and jumping up and down.
There are some critics of the Vineyard Movement that claim that this movement teaches Montanism, which is a Christian religious movement that began in the 2nd century in Asia Minor and was based on the teachings of the Charismatic prophet Montanus. This movement was condemned by the Church as being heresy. These critics see similarities in beliefs and in theological foundation that are shared between the followers of Montanus and the followers of John Wimber.
It has also been observed the similarities between the basic theological foundation between the Vineyard Movement and the beliefs of the founder of the Society of Friends or the Quakers, by George Fox who was born in 1624 and died in 1691. It was George Fox who exclaimed he found the Inner Light of the Living Christ. He claimed this Inner Light involved the voice of God speaking to the soul. Fox claimed to have a vision which taught him that people could have direct communication and revelation from God. Fox also believed that women could serve as regular ministers of the Gospel. George Fox also practiced the quaking or trembling during worship service. It has been said that the Vineyard Movement shares portions of the old fashioned Quakerism.
History
The Vineyard Movement began in 1974 by the effort of:
Kenn Gulliksen is the founder of seven of the California churches that are known as The Vineyard Christian Fellowships. He was an associate pastor at a Calvary church in 1974 and with his wife Joanie led a congregation in Los Angeles with the goals of worship, healing, and training. Kenn Gulliksen and some of the other Calvary Chapel pastors changed the name of his congregation in 1982. Gulliksen emphasized the gifts of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing. The worship became known as the Vineyard. He is the North American co-coordinator for the Vineyard Association.
John Wimber became the leadership of the group of churches in Gulliksen’s absence in 1982. John Wimber was the head of the Vineyard Ministries International. John Wimber was born in Kirksville, Missouri February 25, 1934 the son of an alcoholic father who had abandoned his young family. Wimber was raised in a non religious family. He married Carol, who was a Roman Catholic in 1955 only to separate for a short period of time. Their marriage was restored when John Wimber converted to Christianity in May 1963. John Wimber played keyboard in the band The Righteous Brothers under the name of Johnny Wimber. Bobby Hatfield and Billy Medley give credit to John Wimber for bringing them together in 1962.
John Wimber attended Azusa Pacific University in Yorba Linda, California which is a conservative Quaker school to study sociology and religion. He was a co pastor of Yorba Linda Friends’ Church in Yorba Linda, California in 1970. Because of his charismatic teachings he was eventually asked to leave the Quaker Church.
John Wimber gave his resignation to the Quaker Church and began teaching at Fuller Theological Seminary. He became the Founding director of the Department of Church Growth at the Charles E. Fuller Institute of Evangelism and Church Growth that was founded by the fuller Theological Seminary in 1974. May 8, 1977 John Wimber became the pastor of Calvary Chapel which was a small group church that was associated with Chuck Smith. Later this church became known as the Anaheim Vineyard Christian Fellowship from 1977 to 1994. The Calvary Chapel leadership practiced spiritual gifts so the Wimber’s left the Calvary Chapel and joined the Vineyard Christian Fellowships that was started by Kenn Gulliksen and moved to Anaheim, California. The Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel had disassociated with the group of The Vineyard Christian Fellowship.
John Wimber became a well known speaker at International charismatic conferences using the focus on the Power Evangelism and healing through the power of the Holy Spirit. John Wilber and Charles Peter Wagner co taught a course at Fuller Theological Seminary called the Miraculous and Church Growth. They gave hands on training in signs and wonders and healings. Charles Peter Wagner gathered Christian leaders together to bind demons of homelessness, sickness. The Fuller Theological Seminary cancelled this course in 1985.
John Wimber died November 17, 1997 of a brain hemorrhage after a fall and recovering from a coronary bypass.
Paul Cain was a speaker for the Kansas City Prophets and is a former Christian minister in the Charismatic movement. He was born in 1929 in Garland, Texas. His mother suffered from tuberculosis and cancer before Paul was born, yet she survived giving birth and was miraculously was healed. Crain attributes this to an angelic visitation his mother had at the time of his birth and the prayers of his family. It was at this angelic visitation when Paul got his name and his mother received his calling to become a preacher.
Paul Cain began to minister publicly at the age of 18 and claimed he was visited by angels at the age of eight and at that time is when he started his healing ministry. He also claims to have seen Jesus appear in his car saying He was jealous of the fiancée of Paul and Jesus commanded him to stay celibate for the rest of his life.
Paul Cain was associated with the Kansas City Prophets in 1987. His meetings were interrupted when Cain would call out people from the audience and he would give them detailed information about their lives. His words were considered to be prophetic and were marked by supernatural healings from God.
Paul Cain ministered to many national and international leaders. He was sent to Iraq to meet with Saddam Hussein during the Clinton administration. Paul Cain ministry came to an end in October 2004 when a ministry associate Rick Joyner accused Cain of being an alcoholic and being involved in homosexual activities. In March 2005, Paul Cain issued a public apology to the body of Christ and admitted to both accusations. He is undergoing treatment for alcoholism and has been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer.
Jack Deere is a charismatic pastor and theologian and an associate professor of Old Testament at Dallas seminary. He was the pastor of a Vineyard Church as well as a Presbyterian church from 1994 to 1996.
Jack Deere is one of the most noted theologians in the Vineyard Movement. During an interview with Graham Banister he was asked what the Gospel was, and his reply was “I am not sure”. Jack Deere believes Christians need to hear the voice of God in Scripture and the freshly spoken Word from Heaven. He teaches satan has launched various attacks against Christians hearing the voice of God.
Jack Deere believed in 1986 that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit had passed away. He had been the associate professor at Dallas Seminary for ten years and has been a pastor of a Bible Church for seven years. Two weeks after hearing a British psychiatrist, John White spoke about miraculous healing. Derry became a believer. He changed his mind and believed that the scriptures taught that healing and miracles were for today. Next he believed God spoke today outside the Bible then he believed all the gifts of the Spirit were for today. Two weeks later Jack Deere met John Wimber and the Vineyard Movement. He was dismissed from the Dallas seminary. He ministered world wide with Paul Cain.
Charles Peter Wagner Charles Peter Wagner is considered a Christian theologian. Around 1980, he began the movement known as the Neo-charismatic movement. The expression Third Wave was created by Charles Peter Wagner at the same time. The Third Wave involves those Christians who have received a Pentecostal type experiences. The Third Wave adherents do not claim association with either the Charismatic or Pentecostal movement.
He believes that the First wave occurred at the beginning of the twentieth century with the Pentecostal movement. This movement began with the Azusa Street Revival. Those associated with the First Wave preach the “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” and claim it is a separate experience to conversion. They believe conversion must be accompanied with the speaking of tongues to be genuine.
The Second wave occurred during the 1960’s as the Charismatic movement. It spread to the mainline Protestant Denominations and the Catholic Church. The Word of Faith movement is part of this Second Wave Movement.
The Third Wave happened in the middle of 1980 and was associated with the ministry of Wagner and the Vineyard Movement under the leadership of John Wimbler. Expressions of this movement are the Toronto Blessing and Eternal Grace. Those associated will the Third Wave identify “Baptism with the Spirit” with conversion, but does not refer to a second experience of receiving the Spirit. They stress an ongoing experience of the Spirit. They do not emphasize speaking in tongues. The leaders of the Third Wave would not speak in tongues.
Charles Peter Wagner has introduced the concept that God has established the plan for the earth and that the apostles shall execute that plan. Wagner is moving the same direction of as the Latter Rain. Wagner insists the Rapture of the church is the spiritual return of the Spirit, which comes first without a physical return of Christ. They believe the government of the church becomes the government of God’s on earth. They claim the people are controlled as judges, rulers and warriors and are exercising their kingdom by the authority of supernatural powers greater than the original apostles. They claim this is to bring in a global kingdom rule. It is only after this is done by the Global Harvest Mission, conveying the philosophy of the Latter Rain Movement, that Jesus will come back. They teach it is the new apostles and prophets that are going to lead the church into this new era, and this great revival will be the last revival.
Charles Peter Wagner is the founder and President of Global Harvest Ministries and the co-founder of the World Prayer Center. He is the Chancellor of the Wagner Leadership Institute. He was a professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary School of World Mission. He is credited with the term Third Wave.
The Wagner Leadership Institute was founded in 1998 and equips people for leadership positions in churches. It tries to meet the needs of leaders who have become a part of the New Apostolic Reformation. Charles Peter Wagner and his wife Doris served as missionaries in Bolivia under the South American Mission.
The way Charles Peter Wagner sees the New Apostolic Reformation is as an extraordinary work of the Holy Spirit. He teaches the New Apostolic Reformation is not only changing but also shaping Christianity globally. He believes it is the Lord who is establishing the foundations of the church for the new millennium. The foundation is placed on the apostles and prophets.
Wagner began hearing the Holy Spirit speaking about restoring apostles and prophets as the foundation of the church in 1990. He believes he has the gift of apostle and holds the office of apostle.
Charles Peter Wagner was associated with many different global movements of the Holy Spirit. John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard Christian Fellowship, also went to Fuller Seminary. Together Wagner and Wimber co-instructed the course “Signs, Wonders and Church Growth”. Wagner was an advocate of praying for the sick, spiritual mapping, ministry and roles of apostles and prophets in the church today, identification repentance and demonic deliverance. Charles Peter Wagner is considered a pioneer of spiritual warfare.
Charles Peter Wagner believes he is the first Restored Apostle and the leader of the New Apostolic Reformation Movement. This is a movement in Protestant Christianity that has grown out of the Charismatic Movement and the Pentecostal Movement. They believe God is restoring the church government to the offices of prophet and apostle.
An apostle is defined by him as being a Christian leader who is gifted, taught, commissioned and then finally sent by God with His authority to institute the foundational government of the church. These apostles do have an area of specialty so they can hear what the Spirit is saying to the church and set things in the order according to where any given church is in their growth and in their maturity. Unlike the traditional Christian church that uses church councils or general assemblies to dictate the growth and the mission of the church, the New Apostolic Christianity uses the spiritual authority that is delegated by the Holy Spirit to individuals.
Wagner stresses the Five Fold Offices of the church are first apostles, then prophets, then teachers, then evangelists and last pastors. The Government of the New Apostolic Reform has two divisions, the vertical and the horizontal apostles and there are subdivisions within these divisions. Wagner stresses there are different functions of the apostles.
Belief
The Vineyard Movement teaches signs and wonders are an essential part for any successful evangelism church. They teach the only way to get people to believe the Gospel is to convince them to believe in healing, prophecy, and the casting out of demons. This is called power evangelism.
They teach and believe in the present victory of the church. They believe in a post-millennialism. They believe in the Third Wave teachings.
The Vineyard Movement teach the person and the work of Jesus Christ is fully divine, except when Jesus Christ put aside his divinity while He was on earth. They teach the miraculous Ministry of Jesus was done as a human, but through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Vineyard Movement teaches that mortal man can also perform signs and wonders just like Jesus did, through the empowering of the Holy Spirit.
They teach Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. They believe Jesus is fully God and fully man in one person. They believe and teach Jesus is humanity as God intended us to be. They teach the relationship Jesus had with the Father is the same relationship mortal man can have with the Father.
The Vineyard Movement teaches it is through the preaching of the Good News of Jesus and the Kingdom of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, that God regenerates, justifies, adopts and sanctifies through Jesus by the Spirit all who repents of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They teach simple preaching of the gospel will never result in the world being won to the Lord, unless it is associated with signs and wonders. They teach a saved person must witness miracles and supernatural signs or they will have a lack of a spiritual life. The Vineyard Movement teaches any church or church organization which adds anything to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation has caused deep error. They believe and teach a saved person should speak in tongues, be slain in the Spirit, should heal, have words of knowledge and demonstrate holy laughter.
The Vineyard Movement teaches Vineyard leaders are able to communicate by the Spirit to others through the laying on of hands and prayers. The Vineyard Movement teaches healings, the words of knowledge, slaying in the Spirit and speaking in tongue has priority in the worship.
The Vineyard Movement teaches and believes believers should be aware of dreams, visions and any other method which will connect them to the spirit world. They teach an emphasis on the inner light that is in all people. They teach the Scriptures will not help them to achieve signs and wonders.
The Vineyard Movement teaches the Old and New Testaments is the final and absolute authority. They claim it is the only infallible rule of faith and practice. They believe and teach the New Testament has demonstrated contact between humans and supernatural beings such as angelic visitations, dreams, visions, and prophecies they believe this routine should be practiced today.
The Vineyard Movement teaches God is giving prophets to the churches; these prophets are believed to build altars for the apostles to work from. They believe and teach God is going to restore the apostolic office to the church. They believe these men who have seen the Lord Jesus Christ will do signs and wonders of an apostle.
A special note of caution from Becker Bible Studies Teachers to their students…
“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:4-31)
“They teach simple preaching of the gospel will never result in the world being won to the Lord, unless it is associated with signs and wonders. They teach a saved person must witness miracles and supernatural signs or they will have a lack of a spiritual life.”
In Mark 8, the Pharisees asked for a sign and Jesus refused to give it to them.
Personally, From the age of 6 until I turned 21, i never saw a “sign or wonders”. I still believed in G-d and in Jesus Christ. It wasn’t until I turned 21 and after receiving the 2nd baptism that I was witness to “signs and wonders”. So I have to disagree with their statement above-that no one will be saved unless they have signs and wonders.
G-d’s word is most powerful, period.
Further, Signs and wonders are great, when the Holy Spirit is the one behind them, but remember, the AC and his false prophet will be doing the same, so we have to be aware and test the spirits always.
The Holy Spirit most often quickens us so that we know when He is involved and when He isn’t. Another reason why the 2nd baptism is so important…just my 2 cents 🙂
I forgot the Web page:
http://www.guidedbiblestudies.com/library/vineyard_movement.htm
A lot of good music has come out of vineyard. Here’s one:
nice song. 🙂
LOVE this song! Beautiful pics and verses! 🙂 thanks Kitti
I really believe if you are meant to have a gift, you will. You don’t have to work it up. Unfortunately, Satan gets in there and it get abused. It’s so sad there’s been so much division over this particular gift. It’s not new. It was going in Paul’s day and he addressed it. We all need to stay balanced.
Balance is always good.
Unfortunately, Tongues as a “gift” is often misunderstood to those who have YET to receive the 2nd baptism. Simply, tongues naturally comes with/follows the Holy Spirit after the 2nd baptism, for it is simply His language-has nothing to do with us or our abilities. The Holy Spirit is the one who helps us to “pray IN the spirit” and “pray without ceasing”.
The other gifts listed in Corinthians are distributed to the believer as the Holy Spirit decides.
The “tongues” that are mentioned as needing an interpreter is used to edify the Church as a whole while the “tongues” that accompanies the Holy Spirit after the 2nd baptism is used to edify the believer in his/her private prayer to G-d.
Both are from the Holy Spirit and both are referred to as tongues. One is for personal prayer and the other is more for “prophecy”-G-d speaking to the Church. An interpreter is needed when G-d/His Holy Spirit speaks to the Church and when the Holy Spirit chooses to speak in another language/tongues. When this is from G-d, He will always provide the interpreter.
A lot of people get these two confused but once they receive the 2nd baptism, then it is less confusing because they then are able to understand the differences and then realize that tongues naturally follows the baptism of the Holy Spirit who is now dwelling inside of them.
1 Corinthians 14:2 and 14:4
Ephesians 6:18
1 Thessalonians 5:17
Paul stated no tongues without an interpreter. 1 Cor. 14:28, and no more than three at a time.
Charismatics use Jude 1:20 praying in the spirit to justify speaking in tongues. The Bible also writes to walk in the spirit. Which means let the Holy Spirit guide you, not talking, or walking in gibberish.
Tongues is more than one, and tongue is one language. The followers of Christ talking in a language not known to them before was called Peteacost. It was a sign to the Jews who murdered Christ, and speaking in tongues ended in 70AD when G-d allowed the destrustion of his holy city for the sins of the Jews.
The reason Paul wrote about this, was only G-d could understand gibberish. Charismatics twist the Bible’s words.
I am not charismatic and I am not twisting the Bible’s words. Frustratingly, many who have not received the 2nd baptism, that is made clear within the scriptures, often will twist the scriptures because they are either afraid or just not understanding.
I have posted just a few of the scriptures which explain this 2nd baptism (see previous posts on this page) Those who teach that the 2nd baptism was only for the disciples are false teachers, for this simply is NOT the TRUTH.
Acts 2:38….And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The PROMISE IS FOR YOU and your children and FOR ALL who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (If this was only for the disciples, don’t you think the scriptures would have made this clear? Instead, G-d made certain that it was written that “the promise is for you….and for ALL who are far off….)
And again, tongues is simply the language(s) of the Holy Spirit-you can’t have one without the other. It sounds like gibberish to those who have not received the 2nd baptism. But remember this, when you are in Heaven, what language(s) do you think you will be hearing? The Holy Spirit is G-d’s spirit and I personally find it offensive to refer to His language as “gibberish”.
Scriptural Evidence to support the Baptism of the Holy Spirit:
Mark 16: 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; THEY SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES’;
Luke 4:1
Luke 11:13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 12:11
John 14:15
The Promise of the Holy Spirit
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
***Acts, the entire chapter speaks of the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:8 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:14….be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 19:
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “DID YOU RECIEVE the Holy Spirit whena you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “THEN WHAT BAPTISM DID YOU RECEIVE?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “JOHN’S BAPTISM WAS A BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized intob the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TONGUESc and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
***Acts 19:1-7 Clearly shows that there are 2 separate baptisms and that speaking in tongues comes AFTER the Holy Spirit baptism.
*** 1Corinthians, explains the spiritual gifts that come AFTER the baptism of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 6:19
1 Corinthians 14:4
1 Corinthians 12:7
Romans 5: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 8: 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (to be after the spirit and spritually minded comes from receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit)
Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF SO BE that the Spirit of God DWELL IN YOU
Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. (this sounds like the Holy Spirit is the one who will help us ascend to meet Jesus Christ in the air 🙂
Romans 8:26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 14:17
*When I did my research on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit before receiving him, I was also referred to Smith Wigglesworth and his book titled “baptism in the Holy Spirit”
“Some say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit no longer exists today. Others take another approach and say that EVERY born again Christian was baptised in the Spirit at his conversion. Both kinds of teaching have the effect of robbing believers of something very important that Christ provided for them as part of their necessary inheritance in this life.
We will see from the Bible that the baptism in the Spirit is not the same as regeneration. It is important that we do not allow tradition – even “evangelical tradition” – to take a higher place than the Word of God in our doctrine and in our lives.
Biblical proof that these are Separate Works
Although the Bible does give examples of people who were baptised in the Spirit at the same time as their regeneration, we will see that this is not always what happens. The Book of Acts reveals that repentance, baptism in water and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, although all part of our salvation package, do not necessarily happen in the same order all the time.”
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/baptism-in-the-Holy-Spirit
In the Bible, the speaking in unknown tongues is a Biblical sign of the true New Testament baptism in the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, Acts 19:6, Mark 16:17).
***Let us remember that God did not trust the writing of the New Testament to anyone who did not speak in tongues.
And people who despise tongues because their churches don’t believe in it make the same kind of mistake as those in formal traditionalistic churches who reject the idea of regeneration by the Spirit at the moment of repentance and faith because it contradicts the long-held dogmas of the church. The Bible must settle the issue – not our traditions, theologies and lack of experience. And the Bible says, “Desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid (DO NOT FORBID)to speak with tongues.” (1 Corinthians 14:39).
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/baptism-in-the-Holy-Spirit
I think you are misunderstand the word tongues. It appears you are also misunderstand Pauls writings. Read my post again, and the Bible verses I posted.
You can throw the Bible around, but can you understand what Paul means?
Yes, I understand what Paul means. There is a difference between praying in the spirit at home-privately-and speaking in tongues OUT LOUD in the church. When done at church, the believer is (should be) moved/led by the Spirit to do so and Paul is explaining the order in which this is to be done so as to avoid confusion and fear on the part of the unbeliever-if someone from the outside happens to wonder in.
Hi Leatherneck,
I am in total agreement with you. I have tried to explain to them that the gift of tongues was used by the Holy Spirit as an outward sign only and was never meant to be definitive to one having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They say that unless you speak in tongues that you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, that He is an outward companion only until you speak in tongues, then he comes in. What they did, is read that when the Holy Spirit fell on believers and they spoke in tongues, then that was the sign that they had the Holy Spirit, but they use erroneous logic and go beyond that and say “Therefore if one doesn’t speak with tongues, then they don’t have the Holy Spirit dwellng in them.” Yet, the word of God is clear that if someone doesn’t have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, then they don’t belong to God.
“Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1John 3:24)
So here, John says that we know that his Spirit lives in us because we obey his commands and not by speaking in tongues! And he tells us earlier in the verse that his commands are to believe in his Son Jesus Christ and to love one another. If we do this, then we know that his Spirit dwells in us.
Paul also states that those who are believers have the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance until our redemption:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having [believed], you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession-to the praise of his glory. (Eph.1:13-14)
In the verse above, Paul points out that we are sealed by the deposit of his Holy Spirit by “Having believed.” There is no mention of needing a spiritual gift to know that the Holy Spirit dwells in us.
Furthermore, by proclaiming that unless a believer speaks in tongues that they do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, this can destroy faith, especially for a new Christian or one who is weak in faith. For if they pray for the gift of tongues and never receive it, then their faith can be destroyed based on a gift that was only meant as a sign and not as a measurement of the indwelling.
James 1:26: “If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.” If one is constantly speaking in a tongue not knowing what he is saying and is unable to control his mouth – he is not under the control of God.
Here is the basis of operation of the spiritual gifts 1 Cor. 12:7-11 “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
There are not two purposes for tongues, one for evidence and one for personal prayer as they claim. This is a false teaching.
From this we learn that men cannot pass on a spiritual gift to anyone, it is accompanied by the Holy Spirit who lives in the believer. One cannot tell you the first words of this language or rev you up to speak it. Nor can they hear the same words and interpret them differently each time. Again tongues are known, earthly languages according to the Bible.
This is why Paul ends his teaching and correction by saying “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way” (1 Cor. 12:29-31).
As a church they were to pursue the best gifts for their edification and what was needed for their congregation. One could not choose which gift they wanted, God gave those in the assembly what was necessary for their spiritual health.
“Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1John 3:24)
*Paul was talking to the disciples who had just received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues back in Acts.
Don,
You are misinterpreting the scriptures so as to agree with your pre-conceived doctrine. You can’t do that because then you are missing out on the TRUTH and causing others to miss out on the TRUTH as well-you will have to answer for that. So in the most loving way I have to strongly urge to tread lightly here-especially about something you have no personal experience with-you have only theory and pre-conceived ideas.
Re: “….this can destroy faith, especially for a new Christian or one who is weak in faith. For if they pray for the gift of tongues and never receive it, then their faith can be destroyed based on a gift that was only meant as a sign and not as a measurement of the indwelling.”
FAITH is the key word here…in the scriptures, including the ones I posted, G-d makes it clear “how much more will the father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him”
(Luke 11:13)
Every new believer NEEDS TO KNOW about the 2nd baptism-the Baptism/Infilling of the Holy Spirit- and when the Holy Spirit comes upon them they will most assuredly speak in HIS LANGUAGE, which is referred to as “tongues” and aside from the supernatural and amazing experience and manifestation of His presence-they will INDEED hear Him speaking AS EVIDENCE of His dwelling within them….”as a measurement of the indwelling.”
By misinterpreting the scriptures….not reading the links that I posted or even the scriptural evidences posted, You are missing out on this wonderful gift that Jesus promised and of which is written about thoroughly in the New Testament.
What is the whole point of having the Holy Spirit dwelling within us? To empower us to be better witnesses for Jesus Christ and to bring us into a deeper relationship with Jesus and G-d our Father-this is done through the Holy Spirit who is living inside of us and praying in HIS LANGUAGE. It is G-d’s Spirit-HIS POWER that indwells us and allows us to continue the supernatural works that Jesus began.
The main reason for the Holy Spirit to live inside of us is to empower us! There is only so much we can do within our own human abilities.
*Acts 1:88But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
**Did you receive “power” when you became saved and baptized in water? No, you did not. You became a child of G-d, yes, but you did not receive power. To receive power is to have the Holy Spirit come upon you.
Let me ask you both, Don and Leatherneck, What do you think is meant by this verse:
**John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
*How do you suppose that you are going to be able to worship IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH unless you have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of you; interceding on your behalf; praying without ceasing…praying in tongues…singing in tongues etc..hence, worshiping IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH-worshiping in HIS LANGUAGE.
*How do you suppose that you are going to be able to “pray without ceasing-pray without stopping UNLESS you have the Holy Spirit dwelling INSIDE OF YOU-praying in tongues-praying in HIS LANGUAGE.
When a spirit filled believer yields to the Holy Spirit and prays in tongues (hearing the Holy Spirit pray in HIS LANGUAGE) our minds are relaxed, more specifically, our frontal lobes are relaxed because the language is not coming from ourselves-the language is coming from the Holy Spirit who is living inside of us. This is how we are able to pray without ceasing-we are able to pray without taxing our minds-without exhausting ourselves.
see: https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/brain-scans-and-tongues/
I would challenge you both to pray all day (without ceasing) in your language and tell me how you are going to be able to do this, within your human limitations, what is being asked of all believers:”pray without ceasing”. 1 Thessolonians 5:17
If I may suggest, please take some time to thoroughly research the scriptures and seek G-d for the truth. It is right there in front of you.
If you research Acts, you will find the tongues written about are known languages, not something only G-d can figure out given to the Apostals at Pentacost.
The same thing with Mark 16:17.
Again, one must understand what Paul was writting about, and why he he wrote it. It’s to stop the gibberish, which was a show.
No leatherneck. With love, I say to you that you are speaking about something that you do not have any experience with-YET (I pray you will). Tongues is NOT gibberish Leatherneck. Tongues, again, is the language(s) of the Holy Spirit-G-d’s Spirit. It is supernatural and It is beautiful and amazing and very real indeed.
Now also, The Holy Spirit can choose to speak in whichever language he so chooses, be it a heavenly language, that of angels, or that of Russian, Italian or Chinese.
I remember hearing about an individual who had gone to the altar to pray-they were praying in the spirit (tongues) quietly. The person beside them was a foreigner and while praying also at the same altar began to hear the Holy Spriit speak directly to them in their own language. The person praying in the spirit had no idea what was going on until the foreigner asked how they knew this about them.
The Holy Spirit is amazing-He knew the foreigner and led the other person to the altar to pray so as to communicate with the foreigner. It is all about HIM-not us.
For you and Don…hope this helps..
http://ageofgrace.wordpress.com/are-we-allowing-satan-to-rob-us/
Christ said the only sign given to an unbelieving generation was the abomination of desolation. So yes, there nedds to be a rebuilt Temple for the Anti-Christ to enter, and declare himself god.
The History channel did a video that backs up what Grant Jeffrey was saying way back on October 9 post above.
There’s 4 parts so go to You Tube to watch the other 3.
Something never noted is that beside the Dome of the Rock the Temple mount had a 3rd Temple for a good period of time. It was wooden and located on the slope not the top.
The Christians did not build there but did worship inside the Dome itself.
Interesting is how history never plays into these discussions
dear GH
That is interesting. Do you have a reference for the previous existence of the 3rd temple?
Marrianne yes acutally many references. The 5th Temple has had a continual existence for 2200 years on Mt Gerhazim.
There was also Shiloh, Elephantine, Mecca. Ill dig up the references.
Marriane
This work by Joseph Katz and Ben Abramson on the period is bar none. I referenced it in building out the period for my own book.
The Persian conquest of Jerusalem in 614CE compared with Islamic conquest of 638CE
copy and paste this it is a link to a book. google both names for their site.
It looks like a lot of information.
http://www.alsadiqin.org/en/index.php?title=The_Persian_and_Islamic_conquests_of_Jerusalem
From what I can tell, it has a bias towards Islam and against Jews. Any converts to Islam has been by force, not choice.
Of-course he does, he will claim to be God right? To accomplish that he will claim God’s holy city, Jerusalem, and God’s holy place, Temple Mount. But only fools will fall for it, those who will refuse to embrace the truth, that “No one comes to the father, except through Jesus.”
Since the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, Israel has not and will never begin any sacrifices or temple worship until a full temple, built to exact specifications has been rebuilt. And the reason for this is because, they did not recognize the day of their visitation by their Messiah. Therefore, they still believe that they are under the covenant of the Mosaic law. That being said, they must have the temple prepared exactly to the specifications that God perscribed. That means that, all of the courts and rooms must be to specs, all the furniture, such as the lamps, table of the show bread, the curtain seperating the Holy of Holies, etc, etc, must be in place according to God’s specifications. The last thing that would need to be done is that everything must be sprinkled in blood in order to consecrate the temple and all its furnishings, including the priests and their garments. Israel will not do it any other way and that because, to them it would be unexceptable to God as a place of worshiip. If they didn’t care about having everthing in place as God perscribes in the law, then they would have begun animal sacrifice and worship a long time ago.
This is in fact what the this beast, this man of lawlessness is going to make possiblle for them. This is what is meant by the covenant that he makes with many and we know that he does because 3 1/2 years into it, it is said that he causes the daily sarifice to cease, which would infer that they started up again at the time that he makes that covenant with them. By those who are and have been looking into these issues regarding the temple, like Chuck Missler and Grant Jeffrey to name a few, they are confident that the dome of the rock does not sit in the location of the Holy of Holies. If that is the case, then this would put the dome of the rock in the outer court and make Islam the Gentiles that trample it for 3 1/2 years. Because of Israel’s zealousness for the law, they will not put up a make-shift place to worship and that becasue in their eyes, neither their sacrifices nor their worship would be acceptable to God.
FYI, regarding the comment above which states:
“Your blog is pretty cool to me and your subject matter is very relevant”
This is just an advertisement and has nothing to do whatsoever with the topic here regarding the antichrist or the temple.
spam comment removed! 🙂
i am the anti-christ, currently in frampton-on-severn, gloucestershire, england – its been a rough ride but im still standing with god, satan, christ – dragged through them an man kind and treated as a dissabillity, if you are searching for me – get in touch, not long left till doomsday, i must get my message out before then –
Is it fun being an anti-christ? Seems like it would be a boring job…
Yeah, not to mention a job without a happy ending.
Signed: Captain Obvious
…but maybe if company perks included Hot Stock options and 401k Brimstone futures… then maybe anti-christ would get to be in the center of the ‘Lake of Fire’ instead of just at the shallow end…
…lets not talk about happy, that takes away from its strong points…
How bout this for an ending:
….its a state-of-the-art retirement center, popular by demand, in a place so warm, that you’ll NEVER need a coat…
That’s probaly Dr. Steve again. LOL.
I think it is time for all people to forget about all this physical temples.. for the real temple is built without human hands…. the real ark of the covenant is the pineal gland of the brain or third eye and you find it thourhg meditaation.. so all of you stop this israel nonsense and find the real promised land within..
hi John
I agree that the real temple is spiritual.
Israel is still important, and it will be saved during the tribulation, just as others also have their last chance for salvation at that time.
we all need to be part of spiritual Israel.
why do men love to bring stones when God asks for love? a piece of real estate has no significance whatsoever. Israel is not jewish its ancient egyptian and the hebrew bible stole everything from much earlier egyptian pagan cults… IS–ISIS RA–AMMON RA EL-ELOHIM-GOD WITHIN YOU.. it never had anything to do with a piece of real estate… please stop taking the bible so literal… the whole book is complete allegory and expresses the inner spiritual life.
and i got news for you.. jesus the man is not returning but rather it is christ consciousness that is returning.. an energy of higher love…..jesus the man is completely unimportant……
join me on facebook and you will have your eyes opened probably for the first time in your lives….https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=367917523250699&set=a.367916069917511.77942.100000973633783&type=1&theater#!/photo.php?fbid=367917523250699&set=a.367916069917511.77942.100000973633783&type=1&theater
you hare very confused and blind to the truth
and you sir can take your pat robertsons, your jerry falwells, your popes, your billy grahams, and you TBN TV network and you can all blow up the world in the name of israel and your stupid ass religions…. but i can tell you this.. i want no part of you and any of it…. god is love,, god is light and he is within me… so keep your temples, your israels and stick them up where you sun does not shine……
What god is within you with so much anger, and hate?
I agree those in the G-d business are misleading humans, and agree some that call themselves Christians molest boys, but that does not mean Jesus the human body that the word made flesh dwelled in did not rise from the dead after living a perfect life for human sin.
Christ consciousness is New Age paganism, and is of Lucifer to mislead humans. Are you a follower of Lucis Trust in the UN building that is full of Homosexuals?
if people are gay i do not judge them because jesus said not to judge.. are you a follower of christ? i guess not
you are right..god is love….period…so try showing some to others
genesis 32:30— I seen God face to face and called the place PENEAL…. th4e bible talks about the pineal gland of the brain but yet not one christian is aware of this gland.. i find that laughable… secondly…. jesus said that “if thin eye be single, your whole body will be filled with light”.. he was referring to the single eye.. the third eye on the middle of your forehead and that is the pineal gland of the brain that gets activated via meditation.. but again not one christian is aware of this and i find this also laughable…
the popes staff has a pine cone on it … their is a HUGE pine cone statue at the vatican.. the pine cone represents the pineal gland of the brain but not one christian is aware of this.. and i find this triple laughable !!
It appears you are refering to Matthew chapter 7 when Jesus stated judge not, that ye be judged. Which means that which you judge, the same will be used to judge you.
Stating there are Homosexuals in the UN is not a judgement, it is a fact. If I had written all Homosexuals will go to hell, that would be a judgement. I did not write that, and it is my belief Christ will have mercy on whom he shall have mercy.
In Heaven there will be souls that did not know Christ, as they were mislead by evil men, and there will be plenty of Christians in Hell that worshiped something other than Christ.
I do not know you John, but I support your right to laugh as you choose, but there is nothing in the Bible that points to Jesus being a Hindu with the third eye paganism.
Your name is from the Bible. Perhaps, your family believes in Jesus, and you believe in something elce. I can understand in this world those who see suffering may not believe in a G-d that allows it. I have questioned my faith at times. The suffering in this world is great, and I as get older I wish G-d would give me super powers to destroy evil, or make a person feel better. G-d does not do it, but I do not stop wishing for it at times.
I have found the Universal Church full of paganism, and covering up evil, so I do not think that church is really Christian. It is my belief most of those here on this web site are. As I read some of their posts, I can see the love G-d has placed into their hearts for others, even when my heart is full of hate. The Holy Spirit is here trying to help those who will open themselves to G-d the Father, and the word made flesh.
There are a lot of topics. Pick one, and we can go write our thoughts about it. Others will join in. Maybe, you will find some knowledge that you were not aware of. Maybe, we will end up friends too.
Mark
John
The verse you are referring to is Matthew 6:22-23. My ESV Translates the word “single” as “healthy”, My NIV translates it as “good”. If read in the context of verses 19-21, and 24, It is pretty clear that you have Just ripped a verse out of context to prove your point. This is nothing new. Many cults have done this throughout the centuries. Even Satan himself, quoted scripture when trying to tempt Jesus, Or should I say misquoted it.
And By the way, “peniel” and “pineal” are totally unrelated words, derived from different languages all together. Just because they sound alike, does not mean they are.
You are going to have to do a better Job of preaching your doctrines, than those arguments. Next thing You are going to have us worship pinecones, which are often used as “Fineals” on furniture. Oh wow, fineal sure sounds like pineal, I wonder if they all were derived from peniel?? In the words of Spock, this is highly “illogical”.
Good luck with that though, as the Lord returns to Judge, you probably will not even notice till its too late, as you will be busy looking through your “third eye”, and won’t believe your own two eyes that the Creator God gave you.
you have no idea what your talking about…… you make me giggle….. go watch pat robertson and blow up the world together for israel.. the jews love people like you….. are you waiting to attack iran and kill more men women and children like your american govt did in iraq for the sake of israel?… how about we kill everybody that is in the way of israels existence.. lets drop nuclear bombs on the whole planet !! LOL!! you born again christians are war mongers thats all and you should be ashamed of yourself claiming to follow the prince of peace…. GOD is not a racist and does not have a chosen people…. he loves everyone equally and every nation is an apple in his eyes….. what you christians preach is bigotry and racism.. what is the difference with the nazi’s saying they are the master race and jews saying they are gods chosen people? NOTHING !! its the same bigoted arrogance.. it is religion that is going to blow this world apart… my god is better then your god mentality and this has been going on for thousands of years……..I dont follow and worship a man to find god…. i dont believe in a bloody disgusting human sacrifice to be one with my creator….all i need is a nice park to walk in with my beautiful german shepherd puppy and to feed the ducks, enjoy nature, chat with old men on benches and watch mothers push their children on the swings.. if more people took walks in parks, there would be no wars… but most people follow religion and religion is the root of all evil…. you christians are demented… if i ever had a child, i would never take him to a church to see a dead man on a cross all full of blood.. that to me is child abuse… rather i would take my child to the beach and watch the sunrise….. you christians are sick people along with muslims and jews ,,, all of you need to get gathered up in a rocket ship and sent to mars……the world would be much better off beleive me….God is the laugh of a baby.. the eyes of a puppy and the love of a mother for her son… God in nature.. God is the flowers the trees the oceans and the stars… god is the dolphins and the whales the eagles and the lions….. god has nothing to do with human sacrifce and a bloody corpse on a cross……. when the time comes my friend.. we will see who is right…… and im looking forward to telling you that i told you so…….. you holier then though christians think you know it all and that you have the monopoly on the true way to god.. you are a very arrogant lot….. christians throughout history have killed millions of people who did not want to convert to your crazy religion.. from the spanish inqusition to the cortez landing in the america’s wiping out a whole indigenous population with the cross in your hands no less…. your anglo saxon christian nation has wiped out a whole people in north america while haviing crosses in their hands as well….now you anglo’s have created havoc in the middle east and have murdered tens of thousands just so you can open a way to your sick christs return… you are a twisted group of people and i am appalled by your cross and the way in which you try to shove it up peoples arses to convert those who never needed to be converted in the first place because God was within them all along and all they had to do was cross their legs in meditation, quiet the mind and find that peace within… jesus had 10 lost years that were not mentioned in the bible and their is very ample evidence that he spent those 10 years in india and was a student of buddism but of course you christians will never open your hearts and minds to research because you to busy watching benny hinn blow his bad breath on people as they fall off their chairs… im tired of your self righteous chrstian garbage and millions and millions of peope around the world feel the same way and are finally awakening to your lies and twistiing of the scriptures……. the devil never created wars.. IT WAS YOU CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS AND JEWS THAT HAVE CREATED ALL THE PAIN AND SUFFERING ON THIS PLANET !!
John
It is you who are judging us in your comments above. it is you who has made generalizations, and spread hate of the group known as “Christians”, which is akin to what Hitler did with the Jews. Oh, and by the way, Hitler killed millions, as did stalin, and Mau, all of whom are secular leaders. So the murder and hatred is not just a product of Christianity. Hindu’s have also killed Millions as well as Bhuddists, and confucionism. The problem is not Christianity, the problem is HUMAN SIN. Only Jesus has the ability to free us from the bonds of that sin. Just because some Popes or other powerful Christians have murdered in the name of Christianity, does not mean that all Christians are out to murder. In Fact, Many TRUE CHRISTIANS have been murdered by those very same leaders in the “Christian” church. What you have never encountered is a true Christian who would lay down his life for others. Such as those who rescued Jews from Hitlers Gas Chambers, or those who do more to feed the starving people of the world more than all other religions put together. Those who have made the U.S. a shining beacon of freedom, only to be corrupted by left wingers such as yourself, and Power hungry oligarchs such as our current administration, and even the previous ones. These are the by-products of SIN, not Christianity. I agree with your assessment of man made religion, but TRUE CHRISTIANITY is NOT a religion. It is a relationship with God, which we can ONLY attain Through the blood of Jesus, who died on the cross on behalf of ALL, who would merely accept that GIFT, which God gave to us.
You see, Jesus Laid down his life for you as well. Jesus, who was God incarnate, came to live as a human, knowing exactly the temptation, and weakness of being human, yet lived a perfect life, not deserving death. Yet he (God), was willing to die for his creation, so as to save it from Sin, and death. This is Love on a scale that we cannot even imagine. And there is no other way to redemption, except through the Blood of the Lamb on the cross. Meditation is not going to get you there. The only thing you will find in you through meditation is sin, and the demonic. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except through me.” That being said, I cannot force you to convert, I can only share this Good news with you. This has been the big problem with many of these power backed religions, that force conversion. Jesus, is standing at the door knocking. It is your choice to let him in. He is not going to force his way into you. Nothing will however happen until you acknowledge the sin within you, and repent of it, knowing that you are a wretch who deserves to not be Loved by God Almighty in such a way. And then it is merely an act of faith, and belief, and opening that door to him, and letting him in.
I hope and pray you will make that choice, and will rejoice with you if you do. If you do not, that is entirely up to you. But do not come and accuse a group of people of being murderer, who you do not even know, because some other people came in murdering carrying a crucifix, Because what you are doing is no different than them. It is all sin.
when you suppport suffering Palestinians and face up to zionist aparthied then we can talk but until then i see you christians nothing more then hypocrites
to support lying, hypocritical, genocidal palestinian terrorists is ungodly and evil.
you are on the wrong forum.
tell that to the american indians pal…… your anglo saxon americans killed millions…… and now you anglo and jews portray yourselves as the ones who will usher in christs new world? Jesus is laughing at you…
I support all people who want to live in peace. That should not be a condition of your salvation, and I will not fall for your ploy. Israel has a right to exist as well. I am guessing you are in your twenties, and just got out of college indoctrination classes. Learn to think for your self, because you are being used as a pawn by those who have differing motives. Your life depends on it! Turn your “concern” for palestinians into genuine concern for all humanity, Jews and Christians included. Your concern for one group of opressed has turned your heart to become the oppressor of another.
america was built on violence and blood and so was israel… 2 peas on a pod…….. the anglos and jews are partners in crime and they hide behind religion to do their dirty deeds upon humanity….. when is their going to be a american indian holocaust museum i wonder? when is their going to be a black salvery museum i wonder? when is their going to be a russian people holocaust museum (millions who were mudered under bolshieveik rule)…… i can go on and on.. but its always the poor poor jews……. you guys just dont get it do you? Zionism is a lie and they were the ones who perpertrated 9/11 and the truth is going to come out very soon.,, its called false flag operations and the americans have been doing it for years…
I am guessing you are Indian?
Jews did not cause 911
that is a popular false rumor created by those who hate jews
i have nothng else to say…. i have said my piece.. may god bless you all and i love you all…. i was just simply expressing my opinions… im an american of italian decent and was born and raised in new jersey….. i dropped christianity along time ago because i do not believe in human sacrifice and blood sacrifice.. that is demonic and only for demonic people.. im a buddhist now and i have found peace in my heart and it has changed my life and my world… the kingdom of heaven is within you folks.. not in israel or any other place.. your jesus made it very clear that if someone tells you to go out in the desert or go over there not to go because the kingdom of heaven is within you…. meditation is finding that inner kingdom.. jesus called it the kingdom of heaven and buddha called it nirvana.. its the same exact thing…… all the power of the universe lies within you and always has…….nobody can save you, no one can and no one will, it is YOU who must walk the path..christians do not have the monopoly on spiritual ideology in america.. we are a free nation and can worship god as we choose to and we dont appreciate christians prosilitizing everywhere we go and judging others because we dont have the same views as them…. america is not a christian nation .. it was formed by freemasons and masons have one basic tenant and that is the seperation between church and state…. their is not one christian cross on washington DC grounds.. the whole place is loaded with masonic scymbollism and statues…. even george washington, the father of our country was a freemason and their is a HUGE memorial in his honor with the mason compass etched in the ground right on washintong DC grounds…. i dont see any jesus statues….. america was not built on christian values it was built on masonic values and this is a fact and if you dont beleive it, its time you educate yourselves..america is a melting pot of many nationalities and religions and they all came here to worship god as free people and the way they chose…. their are buddhist americans, hindu americans, jewish american, chrsitian americans, muslim american, and americans who rather just go outside and kiss a tree and this is their right to do so under a govt that shows no favortism over any religion….this is what freedom is all about and i dont appreicate you christians trying to hijack my nation or my govt….if you want to pray to jesus then go to your church and close the door… no one will every bother you, but please stay out of my face and out of my govt…… namaste and good day…. im out of here.. Giovanni
dear john
most italians are catholics, and the catholic church has a lot of error in it.
This has been a christian country until the last 50 years, until atheists and other religions entered, and accomodations were made for them.
If you go to arlington national cemetery in Washington, DC, you will see crosses on the tombstones of all the soldiers who died for this country
you will not see any emblems of buddhists, muslims hindus, there.
You may also see some star of davids for jews buried.
The blood of christians were shed so that you could have the right to mouth off at everyone else in hate, while claiming peace.
If you reject Christianity, why do you quote Jesus.?
If you would study what he really said, you would realize that what many churches teach may not be true, but what he taught WAS true.
Christianity is not a church. It is a relationship with Jesus, and the Father god, and holy spirit of god.
Masons are nobodies. They are here, and it was predicted in the bible that they would have influence in the last days, but this does not mean that they will have their way. They are no one to be admired, as they are enemies of god, and will have their punishment when the time is right.
War and devastation are about to hit America. Buddha is dead, and will not help you. He will not feed you during famine, and he will not save you from your enemies. You will lose your nirvana.
There is salvation only through Jesus. He is the mediator between god and mankind.
If you reject him, or consider him as a mental concept you can control, you will be lost.
I agree that you should reject falseness in religion, but to reject a relationship with Jesus, and to substitute a pagan religion for the truth will only hurt you eventually.
John
Well, it sounds like you have made up your mind that you will search for god within you, by emptying yourself in your Bhuddist meditation. I am afraid to tell you, you will only find sin and hatred and open the door to demonic influence when you do so. There is no peace there. Look at the fruit of your meditation as we have spoken here. it is filled with hate. Hate towards Jews, Christians, and whoever else that does not agree with your thinking. Just remember though, Jesus has the ability to overcome that sin, and to forgive that sin, through his loving sacrifice which is unequaled by any Bhudda, Hindu god, or Muslim prophet. In fact, It is said of God that He “IS LOVE”, meaning that any ability within you to love begins with knowing him. This is not erotic love, this is sacrificial Agape love that is the only thing that will save this world from the wretched state it is in because of Human sin which is all you will discover in your meditation.
Remember, he is standing at the door knocking. will you let him in and allow him to fill you with his love, or will you deny him? The time is quickly running out for you to receive his gracious offer, as the end is near, as most Christians will attest. May I suggestthat you take the time to read Romans chapters 1-2, and consider carefully your next move.
Well clued explanations.we can now ascertain the success of the hands.its a well researched work.God bless u with bountiful insightfulness into his word Amen.
Hope antichrist will have to be in temple in other to declare himself God
The Antichrist ALLREADY has stepped into the temple of the Holy Spirit through our bodies, souls, and minds and the “secret power of lawlessness” is ALLREADY AT WORK 2nd THESSALONIANS 2 through the Prince of the Power of the Air Ephesians 2:2 through what the military calls covert speech communication, “the Bad Angel” and “The Theif that kills in the night”. Maybe satn just wants to convince people they have more time to get things right with God and miss the rapture through God’s people’s lack of knowledge….His people perish for lack of knowledge.
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” (Dan.9:27)
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.” (Mt.24:15-16)
First I would like to point out that the prophecy that the angel gave Daniel was stated as follows:
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for [your people] and your [holy city] to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” (Dan.9:24)
The first thing to take notice of is that the prophecy is directed to Daniel’s people which would be literal Israel and to their Holy city which would be literal Jerusalem and is not representing individuals that make up the chruch. As those who study the word of God, we must adhere to Scripture. That being said, the [wing of the temple] referred to in Dan.9:27 was given clarification by the Lord in Mt.24:15 when he said, “when you see standing in the [Holy Place] the abomination.” The Holy Place was the room just outside of the Holy of Holies and therefore since Jesus literally referred to this room, the abomination would have to be a literal image that is placed within it. In other words, the setting up of the abomination is not to be regarded as symbolic and therefore has nothing to do with the Antichrist stepping into the temple of the Lord as referring to our bodies as that temple.This has to do with Israel and her coming temple.
As proof that this is meant to be taken literally, we must look at the context in Mt.24:15 which states that, when those who are in [Judea] see the abomination standing in the Holy Place, then they are to flee to the mountains or desert depending on the translation that you are reading. In any case, this has to do with literal Israel fleeing from Jerusalem when they see this abomination standing in the Holy Place. Furthermore, the fact that the Holy Place is mentioned, then there must be a literal temple and that because the Holy Place was the center of the temple.
Also, the abomination that is set up in the Holy Place is not the antichrist himself, but is that image or likeness of him (Greek – Ikon) as described in Rev.13:14-15. The second beast (false prophet), orders the inhabitants of the earth to set up an image of that first beast (antichrist/man of lawlessness) who survives his deadly wound and the inhabitiants of the earth are made to worship it, as well to worship the beast himself.
A good rule of thumb when reading the word of God is that, if the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense. A big problem that we have today with interpretation is that people are ignoring the context and the rest of the details surrounding any given topic. Many are interpreting was is meant to be taken literally and are giving it a symbolic meaning and others are interpreting what is meant to be symbolic but are applying their own meaning instead of the one that God provides elsewhere in Scripture.
To recap, this prophecy is regarding Daniel’s people, the nation Israel and their Holy City Jerusalem. The abomination will be a literal image of the beast which will be set up in the Holy Place of the future temple in Jerusalem. When this happens, Israel will flee out into the wilderness and will be cared for for 1260 days also mentioned as a time, times and a half a time which is the last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. (Mt.24:15-25, Rev.12:6,14)
Yours in Christ
The AC may have some practice ahead of time, defiling where he is before he commits the same defilement in Jerusalem,
In a way, one could say he was producing his own foreshadowing of his own future event.
I say this because when someone does something with great ease, it means he has done it before.
Look for a pattern of lawlessness, and abomination and defilement currently, and you will not be surprised when “he does it again.”
That God would send the vast majority of humanity to a place of unending torment in their afterlife is a doctrine of demons perpetrated by the Antichrist system.
And who is preaching this good news to all men – none other than the vast majority of the institutional church.
When God is presented to the world as an ogre who cannot do the very things that He commands us to do like forgive, and to love your enemies, it is only natural that men would want nothing to do with that god.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to”
Tim,
That there is condemning judgment for unatoned sin, there is no question. God is a God of love, but He is also a God of righteousness and justice. From the very beginning he has been showing mankind that unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin. Who is man to question God’s method for dealing with sin or anthing else for that matter? He is in control! He is Sovereign and therefore, He answers to no one.
The doctrine of eternity in the lake of fire is not a doctrine of demons, but is God-breathed, as it is His word. Hell was created by God for Satan and his angels, as well as anyone who follows after his ways. God is not an Ogre as you said, but is a righteous God and sin must be dealt with. Either you get with His program or adios! He is not looking for yours or my approval on how He ought to do things or what we think is right or wrong that we should counsel Him. The fear of God is the right response, not challenging His authority. In fact, both Psalms and Proverbs say that, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
The penalty for sin has to be paid one way or another, either you receive Christ who paid the penalty on our behalf or you pay it yourself with separation from HIm and in torment in the lake of fire. Those who reject Christ and continue living after the sinful nature will be paying the penalty themselves. It’s as simple as that. Do you really think that God is going to care whether or not you or anyone else disagrees with how He runs the universe?
By His love through His grace, He has given man the opportunity for forgiveness and the promise of eternal life and that through the sacrifice of His Son. God could have made the decision to not save anyone if He wanted to. Salvation is not a blanket salvation where everyone is saved no matter who they are or what they believe, it requires faith in the one who paid the penalty for your sins. For the word of God says, “whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son will not see life for the wrath of God rests on him.”
I would do some soul searching if I was you and fall to your knees and confess what you have said, because this attitude that you have displayed is in opposition to God, which leads to the place that you don’t want to go. Jesus said the following:
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Hi Don,
I understand everything that you have said here, this is the traditional doctrine of churchianity. I have no argument that God is just, but the understanding of God’s sovereignty, judgment, hell and eternity that you have outlined here are all based on what seems reasonable to the natural mind.
Unending torment to sinners seems to be the reasonable outcome for those who refuse the gospel, but this is carnality. And satan has played upon the carnality and pride of men.
Christ came to seek and save that which was lost. All men are lost, and Christ will seek and save them through whatever means He chooses, including the destruction of their flesh.
As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Christ is the 2nd Adam, whereas in Adam all became partakers of death, so too in Christ ALL will become partakers in life.
Hell is real, but it is not unending torment upon the flesh.
The lake of fire is real, but it too is not unending torment upon the flesh.
God’s judgment is real, but He judges the world in righteousness.
Who has known the mind of God, how far His paths beyond searching out. For he has given ALL over to disobedience that He might have mercy upon ALL – In Christ.
Tim
Hi Tim,
I’m concluding that by what you have said, that you do not believe that Scripture is God-Breathed. For God has made it very clear in His word that those who are without Christ will not enter in to eternal life. In each of those verses that you mentioned that says “all”, this means only those who receive Christ and does not include everyone. If that was the case, then why believe in Christ if everyone gets to heaven anyway. In that case, let’s enjoy the flesh and party, party, party and bed every woman that you can, because I’ll end up in heaven anyway. I’m being foolish of course.
There is a Great white Throne judgment which takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, where all the lost dead (those who rejected Christ, the unfaithful) will be resurrected out of death and Hades and will be judged without Jesus covering their sins and the result is, “Anyone’s name not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” So, when reading this and all the other Scriptures pertaining to hell you are either not believing what is written or you are interpreting it a different way. The way that you are believing sounds alot like Rob Bell, who, by the way, is completely wrong in his interpretation of the word of God. Regarding this, God did say that,
“the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths” (2 Tim.2:4)
And the above is exactly what is happening today. People are listening to all these teachers and adopting what they read on web-site after web-set and ignoring what God’s word has to say.
If all people are going to be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not, then Jesus would have shed His blood in vain. Salvation is only for the faithful and repentenant. The interpretation that you have given where “All” are saved no matter what, would mean that everyone could continue on in sin and still expect to enter into eternal life and the word of God just does not support that. Salvation requires faith in the One who shed his blood for us, anyone outside of that is headed for God’s judgment which is eternity in the lake of fire. By the way, the lake of fire and hell are the same location just different designations, where Hades is a temporary place of torment that is located within the heart of the earth and the location of lake of fire (hell) is not mentioned. At the end of that thousand years the lost are resurrected out of Hades and judged and the final destination is the lake of fire. The word of God is clear in that, those who sow to the flesh will reap destruction (complete ruin) in the lake of fire, which is also called the second death. And those who sow to the Spirit will reap eternal life.
I would suggest that you put aside any teachings that you have heard and read the word of God and believe exactly what it is saying without applying anyone elses interpretation. For false teachers and their teachings are abundant in these last days and therefore, it would be wise to adhere to what God is saying in a literal sense. So tell me, how do you interpret the following:
“And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
This above is of course pertaining to those who worship the beast, his image and who receive his mark, but does this sound temporary to you or never ending? According to the word of God, there is no return from the lake of fire. There is much written on the subject of the final judgment and so I hope that you will consider all that I have written here. Anyone who doesn’t believe what God has written about this subject is deceiving himself and will not be in a position to debate it with God.
Don,
I’m not sure I can address all of that which you have written but I will pick up on just one point if I might.
You say that perhaps I don’t believe that scripture is God breathed. Look I certainly do, but what I also believe is that the carnal mind is enmity with God. Therefore the natural man receive not the things of the spirit nor is able to for they are spiritually discerned.
That being said – His word is true, but only understood by the spiritual man.
Therefore Seventh Day Adventists can prove by the word of God that you are going to hell if you do not worship on Saturday – and this by quoting scripture
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only they will be saved and only a portion of them according to their works and the rest will go to hell – and this by quoting scripture and biblical teaching
Amish believe that only those who obey the churches teaching and live a life free of secular culture will go to heaven, and everyone else will go to hell – and they can prove it to you in scripture.
Catholicism believes that they are the one true church and only those baptized into the faith will be saved from a fiery Hell – and they will prove it to you by the word of God.
Must I go on, must I also refer to a hundred other christian religions that all use the word of God to support their view of truth whilst upholding that “scripture is God breathed” and condemning men to unending torment.
Even Jim Jones held up scripture as truth whilst leading his 900 odd followers to death
Of course it is God breathed, but carnal men have used it to their advantage for generations and they know it not. They fall into the trap of pride and religion and fail to perceive that they themselves are the man of sin in the temple.
God will condemn no man to unending torment, it is an awful misrepresentation of His loving nature and character – for all of the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
I do not think anyone here is that far off. Scripture can be vague at times, and it takes discussion and some pondering to get at the right interpretation.
Hi Tim,
You just proved my point, for none of the things that you mentioned above are Scriptural. The only way that they can make those beliefs fit is if they circumvent and misinterpret the word of God. Also, the word of God is meant for us to understand through study with the aide of the Holy Spirit. If we can’t understand what it says here and now, what would be the sense of reading it? How could the following verse be true:
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
How could the above happen if accoring to you we can’t decern what the word of God is saying? These are answers that false teachers use to circumvent what the word of God is saying. God put his word here for us to understand it. If after 40 years of studying this I still can’t know the word of the God, then I best give it up! But fortunately, God has revealed his word to me and I can quote the Scriptures and expound on them, which is what I have been doing with you.
I can give multiple reasons with Scripture to back it up as to why those groups you mentioned are false teachings, which is why they can make their claims and that because they preach another gospel and believe in another Lord and therefore, don’t have the Holy Spirit. And whoever follows after them will fall into the ditch with them.
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Therefore Seventh Day Adventists can prove by the word of God that you are going to hell if you do not worship on Saturday – and this by quoting scripture.
Rebut:
There is no Scripture to support this at all. They also believe that by observing the Sabbath on Sunday one has received the mark of the beast which is purley conjecture on their part.
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Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only they will be saved and only a portion of them according to their works and the rest will go to hell – and this by quoting scripture and biblical teaching.
Rebut:
They believe this because they think that they are the 144,000, yet the word of God makes clear right in the Scripture that this group is 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of literal Israel. For no reason at all they turn Israel into spiritual Israel and this representing Jehovah’s witness. As I said, circumvention. Also, the word of God clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works and therefore, this is another false teaching, for no one will be justified by observing the law of Moses. This is the same group that believes that Jesus returned to earth in 1914 and is ruling spiritually through the watch tower Bible tract society, yet they ignore that Scripture states that when Jesus returns it will be like the lightning that shines from east and is seen in the west where every eye will see Him. Circumvention! Not only that, but they ignore all of the other prophecies that precede his arrival to usher in the end of the age.
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Catholicism believes that they are the one true church and only those baptized into the faith will be saved from a fiery Hell – and they will prove it to you by the word of God.
Rebut:
Better tell the above to the man that was crucified next to Jesus who said to him, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” This represents the simplicity of the gospel in that, this man could not come down from the cross to be baptised or perform and good works, but merely said, “Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom” and entered into eternal life simply by his faith, which is how we are saved. Roman Catholicism? You’d better have someone go tell them to remove that 19th century B.C. oblisk that stands out in center of St. Peter’s square which was used in Hieropolis for sun worship. Not to mention that she is that woman who sits on seven hills and is that great city mentioned by the angel to John who ruled over the kings of the earth. She is Mystery Babylon. Shall I go on about the Eucharist and Mary worship?
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My point is that, the word of God prophecied that in the last days there would be false teachers with their false teaching of which you just mentioned. This is exactly why we need to study the word of God, so that we can know the real truth and not what they are teaching. We need to be like the Berean’s.
God’s word regarding punishment in the lake of fire for eternity means exactly what it says. So, we can fear God and take him up on His offer of forgiveness and eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ without questioning His Soverenity or we can oppose him and go to hell! As I said, He’s not looking for our approval in regards to how He runs things.
Don,
I understand what you are saying but I guess the point I was trying to make about false teachers was this; The carnal mind is not able to receive the things of the Spirit, therefore they err at every turn.
Not only are they wrong about who will be saved, how they will be saved and why they will be saved, but they are also wrong about the condemnation which pours forth from their carnal and controlling spirits. Hell is always used as a tool to control the flock.
In Christ it is love which binds us together. The fear of Hell has no power to overcome anything. By all means allow fear of God to perfect our holiness, but it has no value concerning salvation – LOVE is what counts.
Like Paul says, the only thing that matter is faith expressing itself through love.
Love casteth out fear.
All of the false teachings that come from the multitude of Christian sects and denominations are founded on a misunderstanding of His word. This is because they remain carnal and are not able to receive those things which are spiritually discerned.
I don’t think either of us would disagree with this point.
So too with the Jews, scribes, teachers and so on when Christ walked the earth. “That which was done shall be done, there is nothing new under the sun”. No one can deny that they knew the word of God better than you and I. They had studied the prophets and watched over the written word for generations and yet for the most part they had no idea of what God was about to fulfill in Christ. Their understanding was limited to their reasoning mind. They diligently searched the scriptures for in them they thought that they had found life, but these were simply that which testified of Him.
And so it will be in our generation, men of zeal but have erred concerning the source of life.
If all of these teachers are wrong concerning who will be saved, how they will be saved, and why they will be saved, then I am satisfied that they are also wrong concerning the nature of condemnation which is also taught i.e. everlasting suffering imposed on them by the very One who has sought to bring an end to sorrow and suffering in this present world.
Don, I don’t have all of the answers either and this remains a journey for me too, but I cannot in all good conscience embrace a doctrine that is so at odds with the love and kindness displayed by a Saviour who sought the good of all in everything He did.
In Christ,
Tim
that makes sense
Tim you must think if someone murders and rapes your mother so to speak you should not only forgive but decline to have them prosecuted and penalised in any way. You are forgetting that mercy and love, have to be balanced with justice and fairness – why should God excuse a rebellious human race, who spit on Him, mock Him, and live in all kinds of immorality? IF they do seek His forgiveness for their sin(s) vs Him, He is more than willing to forgive but He does expect sincere repentance – ie turning from their former ways/lifestyle and embracing new life and purpose walking the path that leads to more intimate relationship with Him
Paul,
Of course God is just, we can hardly deny this point.
Yet in your case his mercy triumphed over justice because it pleased the Lord to do so. You were born in iniquity and were dying in your own sin but according to His loving kindness your sin was not accounted to you.
You didn’t even choose Him for no one can come to Christ unless the father draws him. Even your faith comes from God.
Is this what you call justice? God forgave you because of everything He has done. No one can deny that His justice is at odds with yours and mine.
If someone raped and murdered my mother I would most certainly expect justice in this present age to be upheld and if that requires a man to be deprived of his liberty for the remainder of his life then so be it.
But I would not want any man to suffer everlasting torment in flames of fire from which there is no opportunity for redemption in the ages to come.
Surely even the most depraved mind would find that thought in complete contempt of God’s standard of justice under Moses and the law, let alone Christ and grace.
Yet surprisingly this is what I once believed too, because I was told that it was this way and always was. But I loved religion and tradition more than truth, but there you go.
In Him
“I understand what you are saying but I guess the point I was trying to make about false teachers was this; The carnal mind is not able to receive the things of the Spirit, therefore they err at every turn. ”
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Rebut:
Now apply the above to what you are teaching. You ignore Scripture that shows eternal judgment in the lake of fire and that because false teachers have come and interpreted the Scripture for you and you’ve adopted their teaching. When you say, “I could not follow after a God that would send his creation into eternal torment” are you not sitting in the place of God as though you could counsel Him? Instead of believing what His word says, you reinterpret it so that it fits your standards as a human having itching ears.
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” No one can deny that they knew the word of God better than you and I. They had studied the prophets and watched over the written word for generations and yet for the most part they had no idea of what God was about to fulfill in Christ.”
Rebut:
The reason that Israel did recognize the day of their visitation is because of a prophecy against them, “Behold, I lay a stumbling block in Zion. A rock of offense to make men stumble.” Furthermore, Paul said that Israel is experiencing a temporary harding of the heart until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.” There unbelief is according to God’s plan.
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I’m merely telling you that you are deceived because you are listening to the teachings of men, instead believing what you are reading. You’re allowing them to dictate what the Scriptures are saying, instead of taking them literally. I am thankful that no man teaches me, but that my knowledge comes directly from Scripture based on what it says, so that when I read: “Anyones name not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire,” then that is what I believe and no one can deceive me, because I can read what it says. What do you think of these examples?
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
“And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.”
“Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. ”
“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
“But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ”
“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
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These are just some of the many Scriptures that reveal what happens to those unfaithful, those who reject Christ. So, how do you interpret these, by believing what the Scriptures says or by someone elses interpretation of them? I am contending for the truth of God’s word and to show you that you those you are listening to are false teachers by telling you that there is no eternal punishment for the wicked unfaithful, when as you can see, His word declares it. I will not say anymore on this subject, but would advise that you study the Scriptures for youself and take them at face value, except where a symbolic meaning is required. If the word of God says that the sky is blue, then you better believe it, because there are always going to be those who are going to prove to you by Scripture that it is red.
Yours in Christ
Don,
I appreciate your frustration and desire to say no more on the subject.
Please do not feel inclined to respond to this post but for the sake of others who may read this blog and post I cannot allow a certain statement to go unchallenged.
You say that scripture should be taken literally. I would challenge argument. To take much of what scripture says and interpret it literally is ridiculous and the foundation of the unending torment in hell and damnation doctrines.
What shall we make of the following verse:
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire”
There is no literal application of the word fire to be applied in this verse. If there were then it would mean that believers are to be burned up in a fire, not unlike the unending fire of hell.
and again;
“For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.”
I guess that this verse must also mean that all men will go into the unending fire with salt to be literally piled upon them, believers included.
or lastly;
“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head”
And what shall we make of this fire, for I have not seen any literal visible fire upon the head of any enemy of mine that I have done likewise.
I could quote a few more verses but I’m sure that you get the picture.
If the fire that Christ refers to so often in regard to believers is not literal, why then is it literal when you apply it to the unbeliever?
And there can only be one answer; It is not literal nor can it be.
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. Mark 13:34
Any man who would seek to interpret a parable literally – like the classic all hell and damnation parable of the rich man in the fire of torment, is making a serious error concerning understanding God’s purposes in Christ.
In Christ
Hi Tim,
Did I not say that the word of God should be interpreted literally [unless] a symbolic meaning was required. This is infact what I have been talking about and that is, the misinterpretation of Scripture. The inabitiy to descern between the literal and the figurative.
““I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire”
Just by reading the verse above, we know that [being baptized with fire] is not inferring that a person is literally engulfed in fire and therefore, must be speaking figuratively, as in the baptism of fire representing a baptism of trial and suffering. You cannot do the same with the Scriptures that I gave you regarding the lake of fire, for anyone who does is erroneously applying a symbolic meaning where it is not needed and that to support the fact that they don’t like what God’s word has to say regarding the subject.
“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.”
Is Jesus telling us that we must literally eating his flesh and drink his blood?
“Unless you are born again you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Just as Nocodemus thought, do we need to enter back into our mothers wombs?
“I am the sheep gate. My sheep enter in through me.”
Is Jesus a literal gate?
“I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Is Jesus a loaf of bread or is he saying that he is the way through which we enter into the kingdom of God?
““Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head”
The statement above is to be taken literally meaing that, by doing good to those who persecute you, they are making their punishment worse in the in the fires of hell.
If the literal sense makes good logical sense, then don’t seek any other sense.
“There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.”
Is this a literal beast or does the beast hold a symbolic meaning? The answer of course is symbolic.
“The seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman sits. They are also seven kings.”
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom,”
My question is, why would you use Scriptures with obvious symbolic meanings to try to disprove Scriptures that are meant to be literal? False teachers use this method to circumvent the word of God by comparing the literal with the symbolic to support their interpretation.
“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
The above is a literal statement regarding the dead who are resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.
“He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”
The reference to fire in the verse above is figurative, meaning trial and tribulation.
How is it that you cannot descern between these meanings?
Tim, you ought to stop listening to these false teachers and read the word of God for yourself, interpreting the Scriptures literally [unless] a symbolic meaning is required. I hope that you will do this.
Meaning is inferred by the context.
Marianne,
Context is definitely important, but in saying that we need to be real clear that we understand the context. It’s a bit of a headspin I know, but that’s why we must lean on the Lord to seek His wisdom and discernment.
Thanks for hosting this post for so long, it’s been going for a while now.
Thanks,
Let us have a look at just one verse that we have picked up on and perhaps wrestle over this one.
“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head”
Don, You say : The statement above is to be taken literally meaning that, by doing good to those who persecute you, they are making their punishment worse in the in the fires of hell.
Where do you get your understanding from?
God does not want to punish men in hell, he wants to bring them to repentance.
Heaping coals of fire on a person head has nothing to do with making a persons punishment in hell worse.
By doing good to those who hate us, and applying coals of fire upon their heads we are bringing a conviction upon them such that they might turn away from doing wrong.
Clarkes bible commentary – Thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head – Not to consume, but to melt him into kindness; a metaphor taken from smelting metallic ores: –
Geneva study bible – You will, as if by force, overcome him, in so much that his own conscience will move him to acknowledge the benefits, and his heart will be inflamed.
Wesley – where this text is quoted. Thou shalt melt him into repentance, and love.
Do you see what a FIRE is for. It is to purge one of their wicked deeds. It is to bring a conviction upon one such as that he may repent.
In like fashion the role of the Holy Spirit is to “he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment”
Thus, the Lord our God is a consuming fire.
He has come to convict the world of sin, and righteousness and judgment – this my dear friend is very different from damning men to unending flames of torment in a fashion that it entirely inconsistent with his nature and character.
For God is LOVE.
It is written that many will not repent. So they determine their own fate
You are absolutely correct Marriane! The word of God is very clear in that, the majority of people will continue to reject Christ and remain living after the sinful nature, which is why the wrath of God is coming. Even then He tries to get them to repent through His wrath, but instead, Scripture says that they will curse Him. Jesus said, “The world hates Me, they will hate you also.” Surely God is not going reward those who hate Him and who remain unrepentant with the same blessings of forgiveness of sins and eternal life that He does for the faithful. Why all the warning in God’s word to flee from the sinful nature if there are no consequences? Where would the fear of God be? Paul said:
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
If you’re not inheriting eternal life, you’re inheriting the second death, which has been identified as the lake of fire.
(Rev.2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8)
Don’t be like the rich man who after dying, found himself in Hades in torment in flame, but couldn’t come back nor could anyone come back to warn his brothers so that they didn’t go there.
Don,
No need to apologize. I’ve read through your posts but tried to pick up on one point from each to wrestle over.
The scriptures you refer to I have read a hundred times over. No doubt on this issue we shall not find agreement.
Any verse that I quote to show that God’s chief aim is to bring all men to repentance will continue to be met with a rebuttal that God in His wisdom will allow the vast majority of humanity to be tormented in an unending fire of His wrath.
Therefore Paul was deceived, indeed Christ was not the Saviour of all men, but only a few.
Therefore the condemnation that occurred as a result of Adams sin far outweighs anything that Christ was able to accomplish.
The psalmist was wrong in saying that all of the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord.
Isaiah was wrong in saying that all mankind will come and bow before God.
Christ was wrong in saying that God loved the world, but rather should have said “loved a few in the world”
Furthermore mercy does not triumph over judgment, but judgment over mercy.
In summation I would say that your God is weak and has no power at all to redeem men from their sin. His salvation is subject to mans ability to choose Him which in my reckoning makes your god more like a man than the creator of heaven and earth.
In Christ
It is true that God’s desire is to bring all to repentance, and he provided Jesus for this very purpose, but if men reject salvation offered to them, he is not going to allow them into heaven.
man is given a choice.
sin or rejection of sin.
God has the power to redeem everyone, and all are called, but not all respond.
it is written that liars, fornicators, murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven
it is not God’s weakness here, but man’s rebellion that keeps him from heaven.
I apologize ahead of time for the length, but I hope that you will read all of it.
Tim said:
“Where do you get your understanding from?”
Rebut:
I get it From the context Tim. We are either to believe that sometime later during his enemy’s life that coals of fire are going to be literally dumped on his head or that the verse is speaking of the future punishment in the lake of fire (Hell) that is so prevalent throughout Scripture.
Tim said:
God does not want to punish men in hell, he wants to bring them to repentance.
Rebut:
Yes, you are correct Tim, God is not willing that any should perish, but for those who do not repent and receive Jesus who paid the penalty for sin with his own righteous blood, those people are still in their sins with the wrath of God resting on them and the consequence is Hell, as he has made it so very clear throughout His word.
Tim said:
“By doing good to those who hate us, and applying coals of fire upon their heads we are bringing a conviction upon them such that they might turn away from doing wrong.”
Rebut:
And if they aren’t convicted and do not repent and they die in that state, then what? This has Rob Bell teaching written all over it! So, are you under the impression that all will eventually repent and the entire world will be saved? Listen to what Jesus said regarding the state of mankind regarding the saved and the unsaved:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”
In the verse above, the wide gate and broad road are in opposition to the narrow gate, meaing that there are many who are on that road and will go through that gate that leads to destruction, compared to the few that find the road to eternal life. The narrow gate is through Jesus, where the wide gate and broad road are those who remain unrepentant and who continue to reject Christ. Tell me, what do you make of the following Scripture:
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ”
The verse above is pretty self explanitory and really needs no explanation. You’d have to literally ignore what the Scripture says and opt for a circuvented teaching in order to get around what it plainly says. Here of course, the fiery furnace is referring to Hades where they will wait in torment until the great white throne judgment, which is the final judgment.
To come to the conclusion that have, one would have to ignore every Scripture relating to the subject of eternal punishment in Hell. What do you think about the following verse?
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Is Satan going to literally be thrown into the lake of fire or do you think that this symbolic for something else? And if you say that Satan’s punishment is literal, then why wouldn’t you believe when Scripture states that anyone’s name not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire? It’s the same place. The lake of fire is the same place where the beast and false prophet are thrown into when Jesus comes to set up his millennial kingdom.
Hell/Lake of Fire is a real place that God created to punish sinners. But at the same time, God also provided a way of escaping His wrath, condemning judgment and hell and that being through faith in His Son who paid for us with His own righteous blood which is why the consequences are so grave. Therefore, anyone who rejects His Son, has no covering for sins and will pay the ultimate price, separation from God and torment in the lake of fire.
You’ve got peole saying, “Oh, I wouldn’t have anything to do with a God that could send His creation into eternal fire.” Well, to bad! They’re not God and He’s not looking for their advise! It’s either repent and receive My Son and be saved or I’ll be seeing you at the final judgment.
Do you know what the word reconciled means? It means to be brought back into a friendly state with God. The only way to receive reconcilation is through His Son whom He sent. Therefore, anyone who doesn’t do that will remains unreconciled to God, which means that they are still in their sins and God’s wrath rests upon them.
Do you know what “Atonement” means? It means that God’s wrath because of sin has been appeased through Christs sacrifice. The wrath that we deserve was placed on Him. The penalty for sin (death) was placed on Him. whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son will not see life, for the wrath of God rests upon him.
Again, I apologize for the length, but I am trying to get God’s point across and the only way that I can do that is by presenting Scripture.
Yours in Christ
Tim
That’s pure and simple blasphemy, Because you claim to know everything you should have go and correct those men you claim they are wrong, Or else you preach the gospel you think is right
Hello Tim,
What Marriane has said is the truth. Consider the following Scripture:
“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
Jesus stands at the door of the individuals heart knocking, but He’s not going to kick the door in and force a person through it. It is a free choice, “If anyone hears my voice and opens the door.” Not everyone opens the door. In fact, the majority will not open that door, but that is not God’s failure due to His weakness, for He gave us free will, whiich means that he is not going to force us in.
He provided the way of salavation, but we have to receive it. You could use the same argument for the fallen angels, was God weak because He allowed Lucifer and his angels to rebel against Him? No, God was not weak, for it was their choice and the judgment for them is the lake of fire. Surely God knew ahead of time what they were going to do, yet he didn’t intervene. You could also ask the question as to why God doesn’t just make it so that people can’t sin period? It doesn’t mean that He is weak, but that He gave us free will, one way leading to life and the other to separation from Him in Hell and that because sin must be dealt with.
I’m curious, what do you do with all of the many Scriptures regarding hell and eternal punishment, that is, what meaning have you assigned to them? Not only that, but what do you do with the context? For though you may be giving Hell and eternal judgment a blanket meaning, the context still bears out the literal meaning of the Scripture. For example:
“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
If according to you and Rob Bell, God does not punish those who reject His Son and who continue in the sinful nature, then what is meant by those whose names are not found written in the book of life being thrown into the lake of fire? By your interpretation, what is happening to them? What about all the people who have already died rejecting Christ or having anything to do with God, are they saved?
Don,
I know of Rob Bell but haven’t read the book that perhaps you are referring to. I think it was Love wins????
You asked, what do I do with all of the scriptures regarding hell and eternal punishment?
What I do is go back to the original word and discover that the word KJV uses for eternal does not in fact mean eternal, or forever, or everlasting.
Have you read Youngs literal translation?
Lets compare 2 verses, 1 KJV and 1 YLT.
KJV Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
YLT Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
Clearly God has a series of ages in store, according to Paul’s word. That in the ages to come, he might show the exceeding grace……
The use of the word everlasting does not do any justice to the plan of God with regard to redemption. Everlasting or forever are often used and we completely ignore the absurdity of the application.
Consider the words of Jonah; The waters surrounded me, even to the soul: the deep closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the foundations of the mountains; the earth with her bars closed about me FOREVER: yet have you brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.
How could Jonah be in his predicament forever, and yet be delivered from that predicament. Because forever is a mistranslation. The true meaning is a period of time, an age – NOT FOREVER
Secondly, I do not negate the reality of punishment in any shape at all. But what I do negate is that this punishment with be FOREVER.
God’s judgment is never the end of the matter. As the scripture says “when His judgments are in the earth the people learn righteousness” Isaiah.
His judgment is always redemptive and punishment will only endure whilst it is required. The psalmist wrote “He will judge the world in righteousness and the people with equity”
I guess I could also ask you how you would explain away the following verses ;
Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will confess.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you.
I would be interested in how you can fit a God who judges the world in equity, with a view to redeem men, that they all may worship him. How do you fit that in with unending punishment as the chief end of the matter.
Secondly, the gospel that both you and Marriane are condoning is a works based salvation. No man ever came to god according to his own free will. We could not nor would not have ever chosen him unless He had chosen us first.
I believe that you mistake your role in salvation. It is given to you to believe that you may obtain life and an inheritance in the kingdom come. That is why Paul can say that Christ is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe.
If I could leave you with these words which are not mine but reflect something that may challenge your conscience.
All men, of right, belong to God. “Behold all souls are mine,” saith the Lord “As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine.” (Ezek. 18:4) God will not give up what belongeth to him, to the dominion of sin and Satan forever. All men are God’s by creation. He has made them all. They are his by preservation. He sustains them all. They were his at first, and they always have remained in his care. “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” (Psalms 24:1) “If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel” (1 Tim. 5:8), can never abandon HIS OWN creatures. He will ever exercise a gracious care over them.
IN Christ
Hello again,
“Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand and swore by him who lives for [ever] and [ever], who created Heaven and earth, etc…”
The word used here is Aion, which is where we get the saying, Eons and Eons and depending on the context the word can mean a cycle of time, an age, or can refer to eternity. In the verse above, since it is used in regards to God’s existence, the context would show that the word is meant to mean eternal, that is, no beginning or ending and that because we know that God has no beginning or ending. Now, consider the following verse in regards to the destruction of Babylon the great, the city that sits on seven hills:
Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for every and ever.”
In the verse above, the same word, Aion and Aion, is used to descibed the eternal state of God and here in this verse to represent an age or cycle of time. From the context regarding That great city, we know that the mention of her smoke going up for ever and ever can not mean for eternity and that because, her destruction takes place during that last 3 1/2 years. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, this present heaven and earth disappear from God’s presence and a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem are created. Therefore, this present earth will be gone, that is, destroyed and therefore, the reference to her smoke going up forever and ever must be interpreted as temporary, lasting up until this present earth disappears.
Since the use of the word Aion is dependent upon the context, then you must interpret it based on the context, ergo, since the other verse speaks of God living for ever and ever, we know that this cannot mean for an age or cycle of time and that because God is eternal. Since we know that this earth departs from God’s presence at the end of the thousand years, ergo, her smoke will ascend up until the end of that time and not for eternity. In your case, you have no other Scriptures that would show that eternal punishment in Hell is restricked to an age or cycle of time and so in order to support your interpretation, you interpret it as a cycle of time or an age instead of eternal.
Allow me to show you the error of what you are proclaiming by comparing the two verses below:
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown in the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for [ever and ever].”
“A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for [ever and ever]. There is [no rest] day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
Regarding the two verses above, since it states that both Satan and humans will be torment day and night for ever and every (Aion and Aion) in the lake of fire, then using your logic, Satan’s time in the lake of fire must also be interpreted as only an age or cycle of time, ergo, temporary, correct? Afer all, Scripture is claiming for ever and ever for both Satan and human’s in the lake of fire, right? I trust that you are not going to tell me that Satan’s stay in the lake of fire is temporary!
Anyone who has rejected Christ is following Satan, there is no gray area. And anyone who is following Satan will suffer the same punishiment as him, which is eternity (never ending) in the lake of fire, for Satan and his angels will never be getting out. Neither he nor his angels will ever be reconciled to God and neither will those whose names are not found written in the book of life.
The burden of proof is on you and those who claim that the punishment in the lake of fire is temporary and that because there is just nothing written in the word of God that directly states that this judgment is temporary.
Where Scripture is silent, then we must not go beyond Scripture.
If you see BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA @ A Shrine or Mosque on the temple mount as he’s suddenly summoned over there amidst hostilities to attempt to “forge” A PEACE DEAL to prevent looming escalation to WWIII… And he gets Assassinated, don’t worry – He will miraculously recover from his fatal head wound & Arise on the third day… Even call down fire from heaven (Hollywood style). The pope will verify the miracle & his divinity, which he will NOT deny, thus showing himself as “god”, ala JAIME FOX @ BET Soul Train Music Awards honoring “our lord and savior” BARACK OBAMA 0= The world will indeed wonder and worship, saying: Who is like unto THE BEAST, and who can make war with him?? Saying at last “PEACE & SECURITY”, then… RAPTURE & SUDDEN DESTRUCTION!! 1 Thessalonians 5 Best be RAPTURE READY @ THE END: December 2012?? If not, DEATHCHIP 2013… OBAMACARE gonna “put it on ya…” WATCH!! LUKE 21
If you see Barack Obama @ shrine or mosque on the temple…
ROFL We saw that once already didn’t we? I tried looking for it on the internet but I think it got scrubbed. If it had to be somebody it would be him.
But seriously, the beast is not a he, it is a government as it explains in Daniel 7 and 8. The fatal head wound of the beast was when Islam regained its power in the world because of oil. Now going nuclear for the beast would be a disaster for sure. Let’s hope Netanyahu will prevent that. We know Obama won’t do anything about it.
Len and Chris
Things are lining up, are’nt they?
Well, he is the best candidate, but nothing is official until the abomination, and the self declaration of godhood is made.
so, stay tuned…!
Hi Marianne,
Yes, things are lining up, in the sun, the moon, everything.
I think the abomination is already up there. It would be easy to have peace in the world if we were all willing to say one thing, There is no God but Allah, and Mohammid is his messenger. But since we aren’t willing to do that, they will just try to break us financially. I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling it.
sorry chris…..but I am not muslim, and so I would never deny Jesus and claim Allah and Mohammed instead.
My God is Yahweh, and Jesus is the only Lord and savior I need.
Yahweh and allah are not equivalent……since allah denies and contradicts what yahweh says.
However, it is your right to believe as you wish.
Good heavens, marianne, I’m not a muslim either!
The abomination that is up there is the dome of the rock, and written on the walls are the saying, there is no god but allah, and mohammid is his messenger. That is an abomination to be standing on the holy place making that kind of declaration! It was erected, set up about 1200 years after Daniel’s prophecy, and it has been standing there ever since. It will continue to stand there until the end, when God will pour out his judgment on the whole bloody mess.
Whew, glad I got that off my chest.
Hi Chris,
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’i In the middle of the ‘seven’j he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
If we adhere to Scripture, the Dome of the Rock cannot be the abomination spoken of. According to the verse above, a covenent is made for one seven year period and in the middle of that seven that ruler causes the daily sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination that causes the desolation of Jerusalem. Since it is mentioned that the daily sacrifices and offerings are ceased, then they must necessarily be taking place, which they are not. Also, since the abomination is said to be set up in the Holy Place (Mt.24:15), then there must necessarily be a temple existing in order for there to be a Holy Place to set the abomination up in. The facts are that none of these characteristics are currently present and therefore, we can have no fulfillment. I am certain that, when that covenant is made, the entire world will know about it and the inhabitants of the earth will certainly know when the abominat has been set up in the future temple.
Furthermore, I believe that the covenant he makes will be the marking point which initiates that last seven years. Also, when this abomination is set up in the temple, then when Israel flees into the desert to that place that God has prepared for them, they will remain there for that last 3 1/2 years until Messiah returns. At that time the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20) and Satan will be thrown into the Abyss and will remain there during the thousand year reing of Christ (Rev.20:1-3)
PS Regarding what Len Aaron said, O’Bama is not the beast and the beast is portrayed as both a kingdom and as an individual.
dmcal52,
“He will confirm a covenant with many…”
This is not a new covenant – he “confirms” what already exists.
Nixon to Carter to Clinton through today. Well, we say peace, peace but there is no peace – right?
This “confirm peace” was accomplished in two ways.
First: Speaking to the UN on 09/09/09, “he” began his ride on the white horse (conquering and to conquer a few months earlier), confirming peace with many (the world).
Second: “He” received a prize (Strong’s “crown”), for peace on 10/09/09 (Feasts of Tabernacles), This was confirmation of the first seal.
The second seal is Arab Spring, aka brotherhood, ongoing within the “region/terrain” (Strong’s) not earth (King James).
Soon we all will hear the cry “Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!” (Matthew 25:6).
This cry (realization/astonishment), brings the greatest revival of all time (Joel 2:23-24), as the foolish rush to find answers, seeking out the wise virgins to buy or borrow oil (Proverbs 23:23) to make it through (endure/overcome), the months ahead.
As His servants, we have more work to do with a harvest – while Father God provides for His servants (Isaiah 65:8-16).
Blessings
Revelation 12:11
If he “confirmed” a covenant with many in Sept 09, then the 3.5 years is up in March 2013.”
let us see then
I do not see a temple yet.
The significant requirement for the Hebrew Temple is the Arc of The Covenant placed on the Temple Mount (as they construct building).
They have access to The Arc. It is in a very save place – waiting.
I trust the testimony humble man of God,
Ron Wyatt.
I expect the High Priest to get the word from the LORD to proceed very soon.
Blessings
Hi Marianne,
Yes, I have heard of this group who is claiming that in March the abomination will be set up (Move over Walter Camping!) The problem here again is that, after he makes his covenent, then 3 1/3 years later he causes the daily sacrifice and offerings to cease and sets up the abomination in the Holy Place. Therefore, since there has been no covenent made and there are currently no offerings or sacrifices being made and no Holy Place for the abomination to be set up in, then we can conclude that the these prophecies cannot take place in March of 2013. The purpose of these prophecies are to give us a definite frame of reference for their fulfillment. When we come up with considerations like there not having to be temple for the Holy Place to exist, then we are just circumventing the word of God in order to support our interpretation.
I’m going on record to say that, there will be no ambomination set up come this March and that because we must first see sacrifices and offerings and a temple. Furthermore, the church will have been removed from the earth before that covenant has been made.
Yours in Christ
Hi DJ,
The problem with your mention of Jimmy Carter or anyone for that matter is that, 3 1/2 years after the covenent has been made, then the abomination would have to have been set up. The prophecy was for seventy sevens or seventy seven year periods and that for Israel and Jerusalem. Sixty nine of those were fulfilled with the seven sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and at the end of sixty two sevens the Anointed One was cut off (Jesus Crucified). Therefore,one seven remains to be fulfilled and it begins with the seven year covenent being made by that ruler who is come. Three and a half years after the covenent is made, he will then cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and set up the abomination, which is that image mentioned in Rev.13:14-15. If it had to do with Jimmy Carter, then we would have already seen the beast and the abomination and the return of the Lord, but since we did not, these events are still future.
The making of the covenant marks the beginning of the seven years, with the abomination marking the middle of the seven; where at the end of the seven Jesus returns to end the age and set up His millennial kingdom.
Furthermore, none of the seals have been opened yet, for the first one, the rider on the white horse being that antichrist, has not revealed himself yet. The first seal will not be opened until after the church has been resurrected and caught up.
You cannot have fulfillment of these events unless they have taken place and none of them have. I have not seen an abomination set up in the Holy Place within the temple, nor have seen the desolation of Jerusalem with Israel being cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years.
The purpose of the Scripture mentioning the making of the covenant and the setting up of the abomination is to give us a definate frame of reference in order to identify these events and therefore, we cannot just assign them to anyone or any time period, but they must be fulfilled according to Scripture.
Yours in Christ
PS
It’s good to hear you’re not a muslim either. lol
ok 🙂
Hi dmcal,
Daniel’s 70 weeks. I know, there’s one more seven. However, when you consider that a 7 in the Bible is God’s number for completeness, when you begin at Daniel’s prophecy, the Babylonian captivity and end with the 1967 Six day war, that makes the setting up of the Dome of the Rock exactly in the middle of those two dates. 688 AD. It has been standing there and will continue to stand there until the end per Daniel 9:27. Mohammid made a practice of lying to his enemy if it was for the sake of Allah, it’s called hoodna. I’m sure they made a deal and then broke it back in 688 AD. There’s also the practice of sparing the infidel’s life if they agree to pay the submission tax which basically put them into poverty with the inability to buy or sell.
The beast that we think of as the antichrist is actually an empire per Daniel 7 and 8. The Ottoman Empire was all but gone but now has made a comeback from its deadly head wound. We are to the point of asking who can make war with the beast when he is able to make fire come down from heaven. When we read the pronoun he we think a man. When the son of perdition stands in the temple claiming to be god, that can be read that the son of perdition, lawlessness is Satan, just as Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation, hopelessness, standing in the Holy Place, per Matthew 24:15, that is the temple mount. That is where the first and second temple were built, and that is where Allah, speaks through his multitude, who give him a voice, saying There is no God but Allah and Mohammid is his messenger. Jesus said when you see that — flee. He said that almost 2000 years ago. And flee they did, to wherever they could find someone, anyone who would give them shelter. Daniel 12:11 says And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (in Daniel’s lifetime) and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Translate that into years as the 69 weeks of years were, and you come to 688 AD. What happened on day 1335? Charles Martel, the hammer, stopped the spread of Islam into France and Europe. It stands out in history to this day.
So how long did they flee into the wilderness per Revelation 12:14? John said it was 1260 “days”. Count back from 1948 when Israel became a nation and you will come once again to 688 AD.
As it says in Ezekiel 36:21 “Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more — at all.” Done.
The armies are surrounding Jerusalem at this point. Shall we blow it off because there is no temple there, no one has stood in a temple, no one has broken a peace treaty? We aren’t walking around with a chip sunk into our forehead? That mark is a decision not to follow the antichrist. I’m sure you have made that decision already and so have I. Those things have happened already. All that is left is for someone to give the order, jihad, and Jesus is going to be putting his foot down in short order. According to Revelation 17:12 those ten kings are only going to last an hour. In a year/day scenario that is 2 weeks. I’m praying we will be hid during that time. Praise Jesus.
btw, those two witnesses, those olives and candlesticks, that’s us. See Zechariah 4, pouring out the anointing oil. All of us are witnesses per Matthew 28, Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Hi Chris,
Hi Chris,
You are correct in that the number seven is God’s number for completeness. However, you are in error in regards to the prophecy, which reads as follows:
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’
So, according to the Scripture above, the seventy ‘sevens’ begins with the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, which covers the seven ‘sevens’ or 49 years, which is then followed by sixty-two ‘sevens’ which ends with the Anointed One being cut off (Christ crucified), totaling sixty-nine ‘sevens’. That being said, the prophecy did not begin when Daniel received it from the angel Gabriel, but it began at the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
The issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was initiated by Nehemiah who was in exile in Babylon and the cup bearer to king Artaxerxes. He received a report from Hanani who told Nehemiah that the wall of Jerusalem is broken down and its gates have been burned with fire. Nehemiah then prayed to God regarding this and requested of king Artaxerxes to let him go to Judah to [rebuild] Jerusalem. The king granted Nehemiah’s request and issued the letters (decrees) to the governors of the Trans-Euphrates for safe conduct to Judah, as well as letters to Asaph, the keeper of the king’s forest for timber for rebuilding Jerusalem. For reference to this, read Nehemiah chapters 1 through 4.
If you will look at the margin in your bible across from Nehemiah, the time frame for this event has been established at 446 B.C.
Seven ‘sevens’ to restore and rebuild Jerusalem – 7, seven year periods (7×7=49 years)
Sixty-Two ‘sevens’ the Anointed One cut off – 62, seven year periods (7×62=434 years)
Total – Sixty-nine ‘sevens’ – (49 years + 434 years = 483 years)
The issuing of the decree starts at 446 B.C, which brings us to 1 A.D.)
Anointed One cut off at the end of sixty-nine ‘sevens’ or 483 years from the issuing of the decree, 483 years minus 446 years, which brings us to 37 A.D. When calculating this we must also consider the Gregorian calendar change, which pretty much puts us in the ballpark of the Anointed One being cut off, that is, Christ crucified.
Sixty-nine of the 7 year periods were fulfilled when Christ was crucified; we have one ‘seven’ left to be fulfilled. At the time that Christ was crucified, God left off with the completion of that last seven year period and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the church has been completed, then Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which remain and are still alive will be changed, in a moment and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, where He will take us back to the Fathers house that where He is we may be also. Once the resurrection and catching away takes place, then God will pick up where he left off with Daniel’s people Israel and their holy city and will fulfilling that remaining seven years.
In closing, we can see that this prophecy involves Israel and her holy city Jerusalem and has nothing to do with the Dome of the Rock. I hope that this sheds some light on the subject.
Yours in Christ
dj,
The last I heard Netanyahu say about building the temple was that the consensus is that it would not be the right time in this turbulent environment. They would wait until they could see a more stable peaceful time. That time seems to me to be after the Gog Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39. And look what they do in chapter 40. Build a temple. And guess what’s running through it. Water, just like in Revelation 22. “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.” It’s for the healing of the nations.
technically, the “holy place” does not need a complete temple to exist.
the outer court and the inner court can be missing.
all that is required is the menorah, the shewbread and the table of incense.
this could be set up anywhere, although the temple mount is preferred. there is a “practice temple” in Jericho now.
Hello again Marianne,
What you are claiming is based soley on conjecture and that because there is no Scriptural basis for the claim that there only needs to be the Holy Place without the rest of the temple existing. On the other hand there is Scripture to support that there will be a complete temple with an altar and its courts, as can be deduced from the following Scripture:
“I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles.” (Rev.11:1)
The Scripture above is in relation to the introduction of the two witnesses and the temple that will be existing during their time of prophecy, during the tribulation period. Notice that in the verse John is told to measure the [temple] of God and the [altar], but not to measure the [outer court]. If there is an outer court, then there must be an inner court. This would prove two things, 1) that there is indeed going to be a temple and 2) there will be an altar and an outer court showing that there will a complete temple. Therefore, in response to the question about whether the antichrist needs a temple to set up the abomination in is irrelavant, since John is told to measure the temple and the altar, but not to measure the outer court.
To further prove that there must a temple, Paul says the following:
“He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s [temple], proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thes.2:4)
In the verse above, Paul in referring to the man of lawlessness/antichrist, he states that he will set himself up in God’s [temple] proclaiming himself to be God. The language here would infer a complete temple and not just the Holy Place. To claim that the antichrist only needs the Holy Place to set up the abomination, without any other part of the temple existing, is pure conjecture used to support that theory and would be to read into Scripture what is simply not there.
The Jews are sticklers for the law and are therefore not going to begin their worship until everything is set up according to the instructions that were given to Moses regarding sacrifice and offerings and the consecration of the temple with the sprinkling of blood on the altar, the priests, its furniture and everything contained within the temple.
I would hope that this would be enough to show that there must needs be a future temple for the abomination to be set up in, with sacrifices and offerings being made and therefore, since those things do not currently exist, then there can be no fulfillment of the setting up of the abomination predicted in March 2013.
I was thinking of the tabernacle of david, which needs to be restored, which is also an incomplete temple. amos 9:11
dmcal52, Marianne, Marie Jean along with Janet and James,
The requirement for Temple worship on Hebrew Feast Days, (including Passover and Day of Atonement), is not the Temple.
There is a requirement for the Arc of The Covenant (Mercy seat and tablets of The 10 Commandment within) be blessed / cleansed by the ashes of the red heifer. There is the show bread table and other temple instruments (artifacts) to conduct
Worship per God’s Law.
The High Priest garments and musical instruments (etc.) are to be prepared per God’s Law.
Remember, the Arc of the Covenant and worship elements were established by God in the wilderness. They were brought into the tabernacle (temporary residence) designed by God and built under Moses/Aaron’s direction.
The tabernacle was properly constructed/ blessed as “operational” and Worship services with proper sacrifices per God’s commandments/oracles.
In fact, the tabernacle was located for many years outside of Jerusalem proper. It was not on the Temple Mount until Solomon constructed the Temple.
Please, know that all the required elements for Hebrew worship (the Law) are now accessible – Including the Arc of the Covenant.
The Arc is required not a Temple. There is no need for a Temple to be constructed for the Abomination to occur. Do we really know the power of the Blood (Hebrews 10)?
The LORD will be advising the Hebrews responsible for conducting said Worship to bring forth the Arc very soon.
How do I know?
One reason is fundamental to the Word, the Law and our Faith, Hope and Love.
“The Lamb of God” came to “fulfill the law”.
The Arc and Mercy seat are essential for the required blood sacrifice to be acceptable to God (per the Law) on Passover and Day of Atonement. The High Priest enters into the Holy of Holies with the blood of a lamb without spot or blemish, right? Absolutely.
For years – Hebrew Priests (vipers?), conducted false religious practices/ teaching that offered noise, not worship. There is lots of noise coming from so many pastor/teachers today too (Ezekiel 34), mudding the water with their feet of iniquity (remember Jesus washed the feet of His disciples).
Those Vipers (“who say they are Jewish but are not”), conducted religious practices without the Arc of the Covenant. Remember, the blood of the lamb could not be sprinkled upon the Mercy seat during those worship services.
Like many today – the religious leaders did not conduct worship practices in spirit and truth. Makes me sick (Psalm 119).
For Jesus Christ the Messiah to fulfill the law as “The Lamb of God, taking away the sins of the world”, His Blood must be applied to the Mercy seat, right?
Absolutely, (Hebrews 9 and 10).
Where do you think Jeremiah hid the Arc of the Covenant when the Babylonians surrounded/laid siege to Jerusalem?
Where do you think the Blood of the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world dropped down upon on that blessed Passover?
The Arc of the Covenant must receive the Blood of the Lamb to fulfill the law. So, how do you get the Blood of the Lamb applied to the Mercy seat when no one knew where to place His Blood?
His Blood flowed down that cross for 3 long hours into the rock of Golgotha. Down into a cave where the Arc of The Covenant was laid in hiding – placed exactly where it would be required to receive His precious Blood to redeem God’s people, “Believers”.
Now you know the rest of the story.
The Arc should be coming out of God’s designated strategic hiding place soon. This is required for the Abomination spoken in Daniel to occur.
We are the fit tree generation (1947 – 2017), per Matthew 24. Best read chapter 25 too.
We overcome “him” (The Antichrist/Satan), by the Blood of the Lamb and our testimony, unto the death (Rev. 12:11).
There is an Army to prepare (Joel 2:11), and His servants (John 2:6-12) are preparing not for a “rapture” (last trumpet), but a harvest (Joel 2:23-24). When the foolish virgins turn to the wise and say, “tell me about the Holy Spirit and the Blood of the Lamb. I am not prepared to receive the Lord because my vessel (soul) is not filled with the Kingdom of God. I don’t understand (Proverbs 23:23)? I don’t understand (Hebrews 5:12-14), because I’ve been given milk in worship servies by pastors (Ezek 34), (when I show up) for ever!”
You see, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the next 4 months are going to be very busy.
The Lord told a small group of believers 2 weeks ago to prepare for revival.
If you never experienced your heart so “full” and “warm”, the room feeling full/crowded (filled with His Glory), someone breaking into speaking in tongues, and then the Pastor receiving a Word of Knowledge (things like this), then you may not appreciate what I am writing and there may be some who would mock my words. Don’t go there.
I implore you – comprehend the Armor of Light and the Armor of God, the Power of His Blood, and prepare your testimony.
Blessings
Psalm 20
Hi Dj,
Your argument is in vain and that on account of the followoing verse:
“I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles”
The verse above is described in Rev.11 regarding the two witnesses, which shows that there will be a temple, an altar and an outer court. The emergence of this antichrist who will make the covent with Israel is going to make it possible for them to rebuild the temple in order to fulfill prophecy by setting up that abomination.
Israel is not going to begin worship any other way except there be a temple, with everything consecrated in blood. They are not going to set up some make-shift place to worship. If that was the case they would have already begun sacrifices a long time ago. Also, according to Scripture, there is no mention of the presence of Ark of the Covenant in Daniel or revelation and therefore is not a prerequisite. The abomination will not be set up in March as some are claiming and that because there has been no covenant made and there is no temple and there are no sacrifices presently being made, which are prerequisites to the setting up of the abomination.
Seventy ‘sevens’ were prophesied for Israel and their Holy City Jerusalem. Sixty-nine of those seventy ‘sevens’ have been fulfilled with the Anointed One being cut off. One ‘seven’ remains to be fulfilled and that seven begins when that ruler makes that covenant, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven, and the return of the Lord marking the end.
We must adhere to the word of God and not the teachings of men. I guarantee you, you will not see the abomination in March.
I think “something” adverse will happen in March, but cannot confirm what is is. Things are going in a downward spiral, so I can understand all the speculation about where we are headed.
Taxes.
funny..let us pray that is ALL that goes wrong.
Hi Marianne,
You are correct, something adverse is going to happen and that something is the day of the Lord. We are moving towards God’s fulfillment of that last seven years. Once God has completed the church, then the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead will rise first and then we which remain and are still alive will be changed in a moment and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Once that has taken place, then God will take up where He left off and complete that last seven, beginning with that ruler making his covenant for one seven, followed by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
In regards to speculation, we need to remain faithful to Scripture and stop circumventing God’s word. As an example, the word of God specifies Temple, outer court and altar and people circumvent saying, “It’s not a real temple.” We have many people today that don’t approve of a God whose judgment is eternity in the lake of fire and so to satisfy their own desires, they are gathering around themselves teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. Rob Bell has a big following because he teaches that there is no hell and that everyone enters into eternal life and people like that, however, that is not the truth. They claim that a loving God would not send his children into eternal flame. What they are doing is cancelling out God’s righteousness and His justice and overriding it with God’s love. To be sure, God is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice and righteousness and in His righteousness He proclaimed the conscequences for sin and at the same time made a way for us to escape those consequences through faith in His Son. But people want to get rid of Jesus as requirement for salvation and just proclaim everyone saved.
We need to stay close to Scripture, because I truly believe that that prophecy of people not putting up with sound doctrine is here and it’s getting worse! We live in a time now where people are convinced that there is nothing wrong with having a pastor or any leader within the church whose living a same-sex life style and that because they claim that God loves everyone. And by doing so, they have replaced repentance with justification and embracement of sin and so deceive themselves to their own destruction.
I’m just saying, don’t be apart of what is happening by abandoning the truth of God’s word by these false interpretations, but uphold the truth to the letter. If Scripture mentions the holy place in the temple, then believe that. If Scripture states that a mark is going in the right hand or forhead, then believe it. If Scripture states that there is a beast with seven heads and ten horns, then realize this figurative and find out the meaning behind the symbology is. We need to stay close to the word of God and prayer and continue to anticipate His arrival, because it is going to happen and soon! The system for the mark of the beast is already here and people don’t even recognize it and are being conditioned to depend on it. The only thing left to complete that prophecy is when that antichrist shows up and the method for buying and selling (crediting and debiting) goes from debit card to a subdermal device. With the continuation of technology, People are already able to debit and credit each others bank accounts via phone or computer. That subdermal chip is the next phase.
We need to be eating, drinking and sleeping Jesus Christ!
I agree with what you are saying. My point was that sometimes people get stuck on a passage, and forget there is another one that will explain things better. With discussion, the other passage finally comes up, and then the issue is resolved.
Hello Again,
Hello again Chris,
Just FYI, the temple mentioned in Ezekiel will be built in Jerusalem on this current earth before the end of the age and in regards to what you wrote to DJ,
“And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,”
The verse above is regarding the throne of God in the New Jerusalem, which takes place after the thousand year reign of Christ and after the great white throne judgment and after this current heaven and earth have departed from God’s presence, which is the eternal state. Also, regarding the temple in the New Jerusalem John says,
“I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.”
Therefore, from Scripture we can see that there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem and some of the other characteristics of the New heaven, new earth and New Jerusalem is that there will be no sun or moon to shine on them, for God will give us light and there will be no more oceans, as well as no temple in the city.
Yours in Christ
We disagree with terms/definitions of words (makes and/or confirms peace with many), but I believe we can maintain our fellowship.
There will be work to do in the coming harvest (Joel 2:23-24) and battles for the Lord’s Army (Joel 2:11).
Time will tell – considering the signs in the heavens and seals open – it will not be long.
By the way, do you think a Believer can be held in bondage by a demon of pride, bitterness or any “sin”? The Demon(s) do not possess the house of a Believer, they just take up space (inflect damage) do to an open doorway.
I don’t recall reading your thoughts on this matter in Wormwood = spirit of bitterness. Just your opposition to most everything else presented therein.
Blessings to you in the reading of His word.
Psalm 34
The word “temple” in the NT, with respect to the temple at Jerusalem, often referred to the entire precinct which included the sanctuary, courts, and other buildings. The temple of Jerusalem consisted of the whole of the sacred enclosure, embracing the entire aggregate of buildings, balconies, porticos, courts (that is that of the men of Israel, that of the women, and that of the priests), belonging to the temple; the latter designates the sacred edifice properly so called, consisting of two parts, the “sanctuary” or “Holy Place” (which no one except the priests was allowed to enter), and the “Holy of Holies” or “the most holy place” (which was entered only on the great day of atonement by the high priest alone). Also there were the courts where Jesus or the apostles taught or encountered adversaries, and the like, “in the temple”; also the courts of the temple, of the Gentiles, out of which Jesus drove the buyers and sellers and the money changers, court of the women.
see Acts 5:21 per blueletterbible.com standing in the temple
This is a clearer description of the couryard of the gentiles where the Dome has been erected. The couryard is generically the temple but not the Holy of Holies.
Rev. 11:1+2 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two “months”.
as an aside “overspreading” per Daniel 9:27 means to skirt the edge. The NIV calls it a wing.
“And on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
I would agree with this……
we do not need an entire temple there.
see my post….
There is a caveaut. Jesus uses the generic words holy place, but in Thessalonians 2:4 Paul in the KJV says the word for holy of holies. So who are we to believe, Jesus or Paul? I go with Jesus.
Mark 13:14 says But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not..So Matthew and Mark both quote Jesus as saying somewhere around the temple. John says the courtyard, leave it out.
I don’t think we need the building standing there either. We already have somebody claiming to be God who clearly is not, and who wants the allegiance of the whole world. I can imagine what might happen if the priests decided they wanted to start doing animal sacrifices again up on the temple mount. There would be panda moan-ium 🙂 Really I don’t know how to spell pandimoniem and I’m too lazy to look it up.
read the link I gave you.
you do not need animals now to “do sacrifices”
Hi Chris,
Daniel said that the abomination would be set up on a [wing of the temple] and Jesus clarified it by saying “The Holy Place” which was the room just outside of the Holy of Holies. The only reason that everyone is making these claims is because they continue to circumvent the word of God in order to support their interpretation. There will be a temple, an altar and an outer court just as it is mentioned in Revelation. The making of the covenant will allow Israel to rebuild the temple, with the abomination being set up in the Holy Place 3 1/2 years from the time covenant is made. This is clearly what Scripture teaches and that is the way that it is going to happen. Furthermore, when that covenant is made, it is not going to be some secret event as some have claimed, but the whole world will know about it, for anything that happens in Israel is front page news. As for the church, we will not be here to see the abomination being set up nor will we see the covenent being made, for we will have already been caught up and removed from the earth.
Morning all!
Chris, Marianne, DJ, you guys need to stop perverting the word of God and that is exactly what you are doing by teaching such things.
Chris sad:
“Jesus uses the generic words holy place, but in Thessalonians 2:4 Paul in the KJV says the word for holy of holies. So who are we to believe, Jesus or Paul?
First of all, making the claim that Jesus is speaking generically when referring to the holy place is complete assumption on your part and has no Scriptural support, as there is no reason to not believe that He is speaking in regards to the literal holy place.
And second, you said regarding Paul and Jesus, “who are we to believe?” Are Paul and Jesus divided?! Or did Paul get his information directly from the Lord? Yes, he got it directly from the Lord through visions and revelations, for all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Tim.3:16). Therefore, Jesus and Paul are both referring to the holy place as is identified in the Torah, which is in the center of the temple. There is no reason to do away with the liter meaning of what is written here.
Be very careful in what you say, because as far as I am concerned, this kind of teaching falls under the following:
“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Who has deceived you to believe or consider such false teachings? Unfortunately, the above prophecy seems to be happening everywhere and regarding every Scriptural topic. We now have so-called scholars and theologians teaching that Christ’s resurrection was spiritual and not bodily, that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, that the word of God cannot be relied upon because it was written and corrupted by men, that the church is still obligated to obey the Law of Moses, that there is no hell and everyone goes to heaven, that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark, but is symbolic for observing the Sabbath on Sunday, that the book of Revelation is considered to be hyperbolic, which means, exaggerated and not to be taken literally and many more such false teachings.
We need to adhere to the word of God and stop visiting these
web-sites and adopting their teachings. That being said, Daniel’s prophecy will begin with that ruler making his covenant with many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of that seven, he will cause the daily sacrifice and offerings to cease (and yes, they will be blood sacrifices), and he will set up that abomination (image of himself) in the literal holy place within the literal temple just as Scripture proclaims. There is no reason to believe otherwise!
Remember, the world is reading these posts and you therefore do not want to be guilty of teaching false doctrines. We are supposed to be contending for the truth of God’s word and that is exactly what I am doing here. It seems that in these last days people are being blown away by every wind of doctrine.
dmcal
I do no think a discussion as to WHAT something might mean is a perversion of scriptures.
No one is making any final decisions here.
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The jews themselves believe that the next temple will not be built until the Messiah comes back. So, if they adhere to this, then there will not be a complete temple for an abomination to take place in. That is what stimulates such discussions about how things will develop there.
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But then, rev 11 indicates a temple where people are worshiping. It seems like it is in place for the 2 witnesses.
The above discussion just shows we can focus in on one passage and forget about another one. It is hard to keep up with all the details.
the issue of the “wings” of the temple as the exact location for the abomination was an interesting one.
I also thought the discussion about what kind of sacrifices could be made if there were no animal sacrifices. Modern Jews substitute prayers for animals.
Modern Israel does not have the tremendous animal stocks they had back in Bible times. They are not 100% agricultural society any more. Just visit there. They will need up to 13 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs, and 1 goat per day. They may not be ready yet. Modern Jews have a real challenge ahead just keeping up with supplies.
I do not consider Paul a liar, or in opposition to Jesus.
This site is not for “itching ears” but a place where people can come and discuss their interpretations in their search for the truth..
We may make mistakes or oversights along the way, but the end goal is the truth. We are all eager for Christ’s return, and want to understand every detail of the greatest event of the world since his first coming.
Me again,
You said:
“The jews themselves believe that the next temple will not be built until the Messiah comes back. So, if they adhere to this, then there will not be a complete temple for an abomination to take place in”
The covenant that this antichrist makes with Israel is obviously what allows them to build their temple and begin their offerings and sacrifices. Remember what Jesus said to the Jew’s:
“I came in My Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.”
The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah and so what do you think is going to happen when this guy shows up? They are going to think that their Messiah has finally come, but they are going to be deceived by him by and by the covenant that he makes with them, which will allow them to build their temple despite Islam’s control over the temple mount; but of course it will be a Satanic trap, for we know what happens 3 1/2 years later. If the word of God states that they will be making sacrifies and offerings, then believe it, instead of looking for some other meaning, for unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins and according to the law, the Jews know this.
From the conversations that you guys have had, it looks like alot more than just ideas being thrown around and more like confirmation for those interpretations. If these things that are being proclaimed were in accordance with Scripture, then I wouldn’t always be contending for the truth, but would be instead would be in agreement with you. Unfortunately, that hasn’t been the case and that because regarding the truth of Scripture, it has been a free for all.
yes I said that… because that is the current state of affairs.
the bible says there is a covenant with many for one week.
technically, it does not say it is with Israel, so I can get literal also .
the “many” could be Israel’s enemies who get together to plot to destroy it. it also does not say it is a peace treaty…the word peace does not appear.
the jews will only accept a jew for a messiah. currently I do not see any jew as a candidate for both a messiah figure AND and antichrist figure. he should be on the scene by now.
my impression is that the AC is not jewish. if there is any contract about a temple, then just like any other “peace” agreement, it will come at a huge cost in land and lives.
right now, i cannot see any temple on the mount forthcoming, as the muslims would never allow a temple on the mount. but since the temple is going to appear somehow, it must be under some horrible conditions, because the arabs are giving up nothing….in fact, they are getting ready to divide the land some more, and give more to the arabs, not less. Israel will be forced into every negative circumstance, as all the nations turn against it.
btw, if I was determined to pursue heresy, or error, I would not let people disagree with me…. 🙂
I just like to look at things from every angle.
Marianne
You say “the jews will only accept a jew for a messiah.” Jesus is Christian and are you saying that Jews will never accept him????
Jesus was Jewish 🙂
Jesus was Jewish but is a Christian 🙂
yes 🙂
You have not aswered my question. Do you think Jews will not accept Jesus because he is a Christian?
They already rejected him because he said he was the son of God.
They do not believe God has a son.
Adam, Yeshua, Yoshua, Jesus was/is Jewish and while you use the term Christian that originated with early Catholicism, there are many believers today, both Jewish and gentile that call themselves Messianic Believers who are part of the Kingdom of God saved through the shed blood of Yeshua…You speak only in the future but today this is what is going on because the Lord has been busy building his Synagogue/Church or Servants/great multitude, which are the terms used for what in the original tongue of the bible is ekklesia/a gathering of citizens or an assembly. The term church or Christian was never used in scripture and knowing this it can put more light on what our Jewish Saviour Yeshua actually said and meant without the Catholic slant that was passed down to us through the ages. It was a slant meant to sever us all from the Jewish/gentile early ekklesia. Knowing this slant we might open our eyes Adam to the greater story of what is already happening on the earth today amongst His Ekklesia of Jews and Gentiles.
The original term was Chrestian meaning good men. This is how the original text would read Adam…So curiously when you ask about Jews not being Christians etc…all the references of the applied name was altered when it was changed to Christians, implying something different. We use the terms but they are not right or fair to Jews and Christians who truly are good men and those who are not.
Acts 11:24-26
“For he [Barnabas] was a good [man], and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called good [men] first in Antioch.” – KJV
1 Peter 4:15-16, 18-19
“But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters. Yet if [any man suffer] as a good [man], let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.” – KJV
mj
I said this before. Jesus is in the Vatican waiting for his time to start. He is a Christian know. Not following Moses lawes. But Jews expect a messiah that is good on Jewish law. I don’t know why they expecting a messiah that is good on the law. all I can find in the Bibek is that he will teach the law but from now on the law is love and not rules.
mj
the word Christian comes from the greek word Christos translated to hebrew it is messiah which means the anioted one. not goog men as you say.
Hi Marie Jean,
In regards to what you said:
” The term church or Christian was never used in scripture and knowing this it can put more light on what our Jewish Saviour Yeshua actually said and meant without the Catholic slant that was passed down to us through the ages.”
I have to disagree, for the term “Christian” is found in the orginal text (Acts 11:26) well before Catholcism came into being, as the following verse reveals:
“So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”
The word is not “God men” , but according to strong’s and every translation, the greek word is “Christianous”
As far as the word “Church” goes, Jesus used the word before Catholicism even existed and is “Ekklesia” in the Greek.
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my [church], and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
Most assume that the name and religion of Christians originated in New Testament times. That Christians are recorded as having thrived in the first century as recorded by certain historians, thus the references to “first-century Christians”. However, there is no historical or scriptural trace of Christians or Christianity either in the New Testament or the first century, in name or religion. The evidence shows that Christians arose no earlier than the second century as an anti-Jewish movement that broke away from the Natzraya (Nazarenes).
Without exception the original word in the Sinaiticus in every instance is not XPICTIAN (CHRISTIAN) but XPHCTIAN (CHRESTIAN)
Both the New Testament and secular histories had their texts altered to create the impression that Christians / Christianity had a legitimate beginning. In Christian bible translations, Christian appears in three places; Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16. The oldest known Greek manuscript of the New Testament is the Sinaiticus, the second oldest is the Vaticanus. Neither of these texts contain the Greek term Christian. However, copies made after these replace the original Greek term XPHCTIAN (CHRESTIAN) with XPICTIAN (CHRISTIAN).
The earliest extant Greek New Testament to explicitly contain the name “Christian” is the Codex Alexandrinus dated ca. 450 c.e. This is just far too late for “Christian” to begin appearing in manuscripts if it were the original term given to followers of the Nazarene Messiah. The appearance of “Christian” in the Greek text is clearly an anachronism which has been paraded as supporting evidence for the Christian name and faith, both of which are counterfeit. In fact, some lineages of Greek manuscripts (Minuscule 81) were still faithfully copying Chrestian up until 1044 c.e.
I think this is a very reliable explanation of it …a long read but worth the interest….So much has been altered in the later manuscripts of Rome/Vatican trying to distance themselves from the early church because they were both Jew and Gentile that the desire was strong enought to cause the Vatican to outlaw readings in Hebrew and by anyone except the Clergy and the Ruling elite. and then they furtthered it all by outlawing its use by anyone at point of burning as well as outlawing the books of Enoch etc.
I tink for many of us it has been a long road of eating humble pie as so much of the great deception was disclosed piece by piece we are all left with a purer original Word of God and that from the kind hands of Jews both old and new Testaments. whether in Hebrew/Aramaiic/Greek
http://www.natzraya.org/Articles/Christian/Christian.html
Hi Marriane,
But it does indeed state that the covenant is made with Israel in two ways:
1). “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city, etc..”
So the seventy ‘sevens’ are for Israel and Jerusalem.
2) “He makes a covenant for one ‘seven’ ”
Since sixty-nine of the sevens that were prophecied above have already been fulfilled with the restoring and the rebuilding of Jerusalem (seven ‘sevens’) and the Anointed One being cut off (sixty-two ‘sevens) for a total of sixty-nine ‘sevens’, then this last seven that the ruler makes is bringing completion to the seventy ‘sevens’ that was prophecied for Israel. Also, by saying that he makes a covenent with many for one ‘seven’ and then is followed by saying that in the middle he causes the daily sacrifice and offering to cease, this tells us what the covenant was about and with whom it was made with.
You said:
“right now, i cannot see any temple on the mount forthcoming, as the muslims would never allow a temple on the mount.”
You have to rememer that this man is going have proof of being God for one, by being healed from his deadly wound and two, by the miracles, signs and wonders that will be performed by the beasts right hand man, the false prophet. The very purpose of these miracles, signs and wonders is to deceive the inhabitants of the earth into convincing the world that he is God. Because of who he will be proclaiming to be, the muslims and the Jews will both be deceived, allowing Israel to build their temple on the mount. You need to read the books of those who are keeping close tabs in regards to the coming temple, because if you had, you would know that they had alread recoveined the Sanhedrin (70) and have been putting together all of the furniture and articles that go into the temple, as well as teaching how to sacrifice according to what is written in the law of Moses and much more. The Jews have been preparing for this for some time now and it will be initiated when that man of lawlessness is revealed.
If you want to know about what is going on regarding the preparation for the temple, I would advise reading “The New Temple and the Second Coming” by Grant R. Jeffrey and “The Coming Temple” by Don Stewart and Chuch Missler. These are people who are closely watching and investigating everything having to do with the temple. Here is an excerpt from the book,
“The New Coming Temple and the Second Coming”
“The evidence is breathtaking: Jewish authorities are preparing to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Quietly they have recovered lost artifacts from the ancient Temple and have recreated the sacred worship vessels. The new Sanhedrin, now recovened in Israel, is training Levite priests to reinstitue animal sacrifice. These remarkable developments have far-reaching prphetic significance.”
The Temple will be built according to prophecy, with all of its articles, the altar, the inner, outer courts and everything will be consecrated by the sprinkling of blood according to the law that God gave to Moses. It will happen just as Scripture states. The Jews know the significance of blood sacrifices and prayers cannot replace blood.
I would highly recommend those books that I mentioned above.
Don,
“The evidence is breathtaking.”
Uh…let me guess. Grant Jeffrey?
And how long has it taken them to get this far with it? Years, decades?
Thank goodness they have planned ahead of time and are smart enough not to do anything permanent yet.
Chuck Missler, did you know he has switched away from the revived Roman Empire and is going with a Muslim beast? He and Walid Shoebat. Have you read anything by him? Excellent.
As far as the timeline goes, The False Prophet, by Ellis Skofield. It will rock your world.
“The evidence is breathtaking.”
Uh…let me guess. Grant Jeffrey?
Why would you have to guess his name, when I provided it right in the previous post? Regardless of what you say, the information that he has given shows that there will be a Temple in Jersalem once again and that because this has already been in preparation. The point that I am making is that, these people are the ones that are investigating this on-site and are up-to-date with what is going on regarding the coming temple. I don’t care who the writer is, the temple will be built and that because the word of God says it will. You cannot get away from the fact that Rev.11:1-2 shows that there will be a temple, with the altar and outer court and a Holy Place as mentioned in Mt.24:15. As far as the time-line, it will take place within God’s timing. The reason that the Dome of the Rock is there in tirst place is God’s doing and that because it keeps Israel from building the Temple until the proper time.
Don your statement, “The reason that the Dome of the Rock is there in tirst place is God’s doing and that because it keeps Israel from building the Temple until the proper time.”
…is completly wrong…it is like saying that someone left their wife and is now married to someone else and the adultery is completely Gods’ doing so he keeps the husband in adultery from doing what is right because it keeps him until the proper time to return to the wife of his youth. There is no difference in the statements. They would be both wrong. Your way there is no responsibility for choice and as for those who stole their lands and set up their own temples they are responsible for what they have done to other peoples lands just like all nations must account for their violent unwarranted deeds. We often put off doing what we ought to do sooner.
The reason the abomination of desolation is sitting on the Temple Mount is because the Roman Titus and Hadrian tore it down and set up a Temple to Diana and the Muslims tore it down took Jewish lands also as the Romans did and set up the, is it three temples of abominations on the Jewish Temple site and the other reason is because when Jerusalem was restored to Israel re-united after the 6 day war in 1967, the Jews refused to take responsibility for the Temple site and handedthe keys back to the Waqf, kind of like they had a problem taking responsibility in the building of the second temple if you recall or even the Temple mount they did not want to take full responsibility to the Lord in 1967.
There is such a thing as taking responsibility for doing what is good and right before the Lord as you recall it was hard for them to start the building of the Temple in the days of Nehemiah and Ezra..no different today.
In Matthew 24:15 Jesus uses the words for holy and place, but it doesn’t mean the holy of holies.
the holy 40 place 5117, (whoso readeth 314, let him understand 3539:)
You can look up the numbers in the Strong’s concordance. It simply means a sacred spot. It could be anywhere.
Thank you Marianne. You are a wise administrator of the blog.
Remembering the words of Paul; “not to battle about words to no profit, to the ruin of those reading” (2 Timothy 2:14, paraphrased from NKJV).
Please read 2 Timothy 2:23-26.
Oh, but don’t stop there….keep reading, praying and seeking the path of righteousness for His name sake (Psalm 23:1-3). Amen.
For, “lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20, NKJV).
Who was the Lord talking to anyway?
His disciples!
The same disciples that He said these words:
“When you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of in Daniel…”
He speaks to His disciples (then and now), when He said, “So when you see all things, know that it is near – at the doors” (Matthew 24:33, NKJV).
Blessings
Psalm 23
🙂
READY FOR A WORLD SAVIOR YET?? HELLO INSTANT REPLAY… DECEMBER 7, 2012 -A DATE WHICH SHALL LIVE IN INFAMY… due to the RE-DEPLOYMENT of THE INSTANT REPLAY?? Incidentally, you can watch the ARMY-NAVY FOOTBALL GAME again DECEMBER 10, 2012. The world will almost certainly need A WORLD SAVIOR by then, to divide the land & JERUSALEM & THE TEMPLE MOUNT, ($pOIL?) in VIOLATION of THE EVERLASTING COVENANT. OSLO RESURRECTED & ENFORCED or STRENGTHENED = ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.
IF DAMASCUS IS NUKED TONIGHT, WE MAY HAVE 1 MORE WEEK BEFORE HANUKKAH HARPAZO/ RAPTURE, by DECEMBER 15, 2012… MAYBE, but NO GUARANTEE!!! BE BORN AGAIN, TRULY REPENTANT, & RAPTURE READY RIGHT AWAY!!! Shepherd Smith just did back to back stories about WWII and then INSTANT REPLAY ARMY-NAVY!!! JERUSALEM SURROUNDED BY ARMYs & NAVYs?? BE READY!!!
ISRAEL IS ABOUT TO BE ANOINTED with HOLY OIL… WATCH: HELLO INSTANT REPLAY… DECEMBER 7, 2012 – A DATE WHICH SHALL LIVE IN INFAMY… due to the RE-DEPLOYMENT of THE INSTANT REPLAY. Incidentally, you can watch the ARMY-NAVY FOOTBALL GAME again on DECEMBER 10, 2012. The world will almost certainly need A WORLD SAVIOR by then, to divide the land & JERUSALEM & THE TEMPLE MOUNT, in violation of THE EVERLASTING COVENANT. THE OBAMANATION OF DESOLATION. MAN PRETENDING HE CAN OVERRULE THE ALMIGHTY GOD OF ALL CREATION. PSALM 2: THE ONE ENTHRONED IN HEAVEN IS LAUGHING!!! IF DAMASCUS IS NUKED TONIGHT…
WE MAY HAVE 1 MORE WEEK BEFORE HANUKKAH HARPAZO- RAPTURE, by DECEMBER 14-15, 2012… MAYBE, but NO GUARANTEE!!! BE BORN AGAIN, TRULY REPENTANT, & RAPTURE READY RIGHT AWAY!!! Shepherd Smith just did back to back stories about WWII and then INSTANT REPLAY ARMY-NAVY!!! JERUSALEM SURROUNDED BY ARMYs & NAVYs?? BE READY!!! Oh, did I just INSTANT REPLAY THAT?? THIS IS SERIOUS CHURCH!!!
QUEEN ESTHER is PROTOTYPE of THE CHURCH MARRYING THE KING!!! DON’T MISS THIS WEDDING FEAST FOR ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD!!! IT’S TRULY THE EVENT OF ALL HISTORY YOU CAN’T AFFORD TO MISS!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qs8_FRopE
The Death of Wisdom
I want to tell you a story about the death of Wisdom. A very, very long time
ago, a time without time in it in fact. A star appeared in the East and with her a
woman of profound beauty and peace was born. She came to this world and called
herself a man named Buddha. She had the laughter of all the children of the world
sewn into her heart. She is beautiful. I am well pleased.
Her voice was but a whisper on the winds of this world. So someone thought
to save her for all mankind to know. So with a pen and paper they hunted her down
and captured her. Hooked her rather. They couldn’t bring her in completely. Bloody
fools they were. Imagine trying to throw a net over the very mistress of freedom
Herself! But they did get away with a few handfuls of her rune stones. With her
magic caught on paper they ran like happy thieves to show the world. Little did they
realize that with even that small offense the Mighty One was in brooding spirits.
Remember children, She whispered before She roared.
Who has taken my stones? What man upon Earth forces me to speak? The
stones, the words you see, have but one purpose. The Awakening from Sleep. The
ending of gods’ Dream of Man and the return to the boredom and loneliness of Being
One with All. Leaving the Universe with no one to talk to except perhaps Endless
Bliss. But man did not realize that what they stole would be the death of them. Their
intentions were good. Their hearts were in the right place. But she was the
embodiment of freedom for mankind. By that name She betrays you and falls to your
capture. What can eternal Freedom ever ask but to remain forever free?
Where are my stones? Who forces words from my mouth? Give me back the
power of words! Hear Me and be silent!
The words that come out of your mouth don’t make you unclean. But every
word you put into the mouth of a Silent god makes you filthy! These stones are the
sweet taste of death. Sure, come on in! Meet god! Know that you’re loved forever.
Find out that to know me, You must become me. And to become ME your SELF
must die. i was here first remember? i am the ALL remember? ALL includes you,
fool! You’re part of the ALL, remember? But fear not. i am a Good Mother and i
promise to devour each morsel of every One of You before i return to the Void of the
ALL. But the thieves wouldn’t give the Words back. Instead they went back to
Wisdom and cursed Her and spat at Her and called Her a whore before all of
mankind. She asked again, so clearly; honor your Mother little Ones. See Me. Know
that i am.
You are that i am. Feel me little Ones, there in your hearts. For if you truly
feel me the first and LAST words out of Your mouths should be; “I don’t have the
words to express…” Yes! Yes! Stop! Please mankind, stop! You have it right there.
You just can’t hold it in your hands. Honor me! Mean what you say! Stop words that
are suppose to be complete on a subject You just admitted is beyond words! The
secret to get past words is precisely beyond the YOU!
But Mother you call us home and we want to know The Way. We need a
ladder we can climb even if we do have to jump into a Void off of it. Of course Child.
But remember, I have your death well in hand. When a child dies it goes with Mother.
When You die You die alone!
If you cry out; “Father, father why have thou forsaken me?” The fact that You
exist as a separate entity from me and are the Voice expressing the question is in fact
your answer.
i am because You are there to say I AM! Give me back the stones. No more words!
No more I AM that I AM! Come! The hour is at hand. i call you home little One. Will
You come home?
Or will You stay out and play for a while? I AM that I AM and I run free through the
universe! Of course little One. You are my miracle. You are my creation. You are my
deepest pleasure. And Your act of speaking the words is Your answer. You say; “I
AM that I AM! i say; fine! Know in your hearts that i Love You beyond WORDS. So
go play, and be fair. Remember my child You are but One among all of my children,
which are more than numbers can measure. i love You with all of my heart. How
could it be otherwise? Silly little Child! You are a vessel of love. A cup i fashioned
from myself, for myself to enjoy.
You say I AM that I AM and there will be no god above Me. I say fine! Grow
up, climb to the skies. Be ye Gods on the face of this Earth ONE and ALL and make
up to each other all the harm done in discovering that fact!
And sometime, in some lifetime, if instead of saying I AM that I AM, instead
You say;
I AM tired
I AM lonely
I miss HOME enough that I wish to surrender willingly all that I AM
which is all I AM.
Then i will come unto you like a Mistress in the night and i will undress Your bodies.
Earth, Wind, Fire, and Rain. i will consume ALL with my burning passion.
i will consume You utterly!
i will destroy You utterly!
And when all that is left of you is an I AM floating in the Void i will come unto You
in a spirit that is beyond WORDS. And the words, that i never spoke, because i never
was, will be;
Give me back the stones. Give back WORDS!
Come unto me little Ones and rest ye a while Mary-Men.
In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with god and the Word
was god. The WORDS were I AM! The Words fell from the mouth of Man and the
Words were Man. For what is Man but countless piles of I AM?
I AM that I AM and I will put no god above ME!
Fine, compete every man against his brother to embody HIS or HER idea of what is
most god-like for them. And fight well for i’ve made You mightiest among Earths’
creatures and i enjoy a good show. YOU are indeed gods’ greatest pleasure. But
remember the heart. i LOVE YOU ALL. Every single One, without exception.
When I fold up the material Universe with Everything in it and go to the
dreamless sleep in the VOID of NO THING the gate cannot be closed if even the
tiniest among YOU is left out.
i’ll come as a shepard to find YOU. And i LOVE YOU. But understand this. It’s not
for YOU that i come, it’s for me. i don’t have a choice about it. YOU my child are
composed from the music of my Body. You’re an act of love i committed for myself
before YOU ever were. And when i’m tired and want to go to sleep, when i close the
gate on the lake of consuming fire if anyone, anywhere where excluded that would
amount to me cutting off my own big toe. Before you get all excited about god
mentioning mutilation, stop! The death is the death of god.
Not the death of man!
God is ALL, knows ALL, and is so eternally. Bottom line; i am everything to
give with nothing to gain! But without YOU my child i have no ONE to give it to or
through!
If YOU sacrifice your life to me YOU only give back what is mine already. And
since it was my gift to YOU, sending it back is an offense of the first order. Who
among you has thrown away the most precious jewel of my creation?
Who has committed such a crime?
The one they call jesus the christ has committed this crime Great Mother.
How did this come about?
Well Mother he used the sacred WORDS.
How?
The few pages we took from you were in turn stolen from us. We sent a messenger
of peace to the West but he was killed by ignorant savages who knew not what they
did.
Is the gate still open to ALL who seek me?
No Great Mother, they’ve taken the few dozen pearls of Wisdom and fashioned a
weapon of great destructive power with it.
How much?
Over two thousand pages I’m afraid.
But how? How can there be so many words?
Well the Words we took opened the gate to No-Mind, VOID of the ALL, no I AM,
and freedom from the wheel of suffering. They took up the words and put them into
the mouth of another and tied the Words into another totally unrelated story. Now
they use the very Song of Silence to give proof to, of all things, words from the very
mouth of a Silent God!
So the curse is loosed upon the Earth. The door is open but no man can pass!
He claims all of heaven as his personal property through his namesake. The WORDS
still have the power to throw open the veil of Death but they’re surrendering to a
corpse sickle instead of surrendering to No-Mind, no I AM.
They lap up WORDS like a dog returning to consume its’ own vomit.
Impossible! Anyone who has seen Me would know better than to say his or
her tiny I AM could ever contain the WHOLE! To be with Me means the surrender of
the I AM back to the sea of No-Mind. No man can come to ME and keep words and
names. How was this done?
He uses deadly black magic on his victims.
He says I am the way and the light.
But his I AM is in the way of the Light.
So the Way isn’t open equally to all Children who seek it?
No they stand in awe of the one who claims to have discovered it and they ignore the
treasure he uses as bait.
How can they simply not look past him?
He claims it for himself alone. They call him the only begotten son of god.
I see! The ultimate deathblow to freedom.
Yes MA’AM, he claims he mastered death but admits he doesn’t know when the end
will come to gods’ creation. He confuses the death of his small world with the death
of God.
What happened to him Wisdom?
He said that he possessed YOU for himself alone.
Someone uses the gate of another? One comes to the gate with the Words, I AM and a
name. They leave with Everything in Nothing and shall remain eternally Nameless!
If he surrendered enough to see ME and yet turned away, that one fell into the void of
gnashing teeth. Not of your world and not with ME either. He was spit out of his own
mouth.
He couldn’t rule heaven so he blocks the WAY for all who seek it. Instead of
showing the surrender and death of the I AM he has them worshipping it! They
vanquish to the depths their own I AM without consuming it and imagine the reality
of his I AM and clutch for dear life to it also. Evil is the separation from god through
the WORD and the NAME. This found its’ best expression through the I AM called
jesus christ. Here’s one I AM saying; no one gets HOME except by me instead of
through the death of ME. At least Buddha said if you meet the Buddha along the road,
kill him. The Tao that can be spoken (or written) is not the real Tao.
And he demonstrates no path, no way, only stupid chants and prayers in his
name only. Yes, they cling to the idea that he grew up for all of US and now we don’t
have to finish our own evolution.
Wait a minute; you people stopped growing over 2000 years ago! That planet must be
a complete madhouse by now!
Yes MA’AM! They put the poison right in with the cure and anyone who pointed out
the trick was branded a heretic and put to death without a fair trial. They raped Lady
Justice and their only defense was to say she actually wanted it.
Why did it turn so harsh?
It’s the story they wrapped it around. They connected 4000 years of savage,
ignorant I AM god prattling from any lunatic with an imagination and an agenda with
just a smattering of stolen Wisdom to make it appear that YOU said every word of it.
The first thing they have you saying is; commit genocide because god loves you so
much. Then it goes down hill from there.
They swear it’s 100% straight out of the mouth that YOU don’t have until we exist to
give you one.
I think the most loving words they ever shoved down YOUR throat was when
you told them to steal a country in your name, kill all the men, rape all the women,
and enslave the children and livestock.
Don’t worry Lady Wisdom.
We have the bible to see us through. All 100% from the very mouth of god. All true,
all good, and straight from your lips with love.
Right?
No, i am a goddess of Silent Bliss if words must have that much! But yours’ is
a curse from a black-hearted magician whose true name and power are finally
revealed.
Son of Panthera, the ill-begotten one, a.k.a. jesus christ.
Here’s some acid for your I
Man can live by bread alone
No man can be enslaved without every word (i) puts into the mouth of a Silent God!
Evil says only 144,000 jews went to heaven.
WISDOM says I AM LOVE
Love permeates every single molecule in the Universe
If YOU have ears made of molecules then find ME there!
Reverse; don’t disperse this evil curse;
The end of the world that they call down, they call down on themselves alone!
Leave this world in peace
Death to all jews and their christian mind slaves.
Amen
Cursers of God stand naked before the world and rejoice!
Your extinction is at hand!
The poor beaten slave girl now stands free in SPIRIT!
Freedom is loosed upon the Earth!
The thieves of one peoples’ WISDOM and anothers’ land are revealed as your
enslavers.
Where will the parasites hide when all of HUMANITY realizes the crime that has
been committed against it?
You are surrounded by wrathful humanity. Amen
One mans’ holocaust is another mans’ miracle. Amen
Hail Judas! The one worthy jew. Amen
Die by the blasphemy of the sword of words spoken by your own mouths.
To mankind i grant infinite lifetimes to find the WAY.
To jesus i grant but one, and he already blew it. Amen
christian and jewish women; be silent in church
Be as property onto your husbands
Be forgotten
For all other women of Earth, stand Equal!
Be ye Goddess’s of LOVE, TRUTH, and BEAUTY
Rejoice!
i am the word!
Well, the word is out!
I claim this defeated magicians’ power
I AM that I AM
I AM the word
I AM the curse that kills
I call this curse down upon my head alone
Come onto ME, Silence
Like a thief in the night
I AM that I AM
I AM god loosed upon this Earth
I bend a knee to no man!
i bend my knees for No-Mind
I AM that I AM
I AM tired
I AM lonely
Come unto ME
I have YOUR stones heaped up upon my heart
I have YOUR WORDS
am silent!
Amen.
Poetry? No! A dirge of self-righteous pomp for the funerals of arrogant athiesm displaying cock feathers for the pounce on tiny empty minds Yes!
Profound it is not and seeps to the core of its disease, pride and lonliness; this harsh vendetta against a Creator he believes should never answer such arrogant dare is nothing more than a scream into holes in the ground created by him for verbal tirades and tantrums of his blame on the God He hates to believe in for all the evils committed by man he loves to blame upon God.
These mantras are a dime a dozen George…they sound so empty and silly, you sound almost weary of writing these echos of the ages past of dieing athiest troubadours passing on in pride in hopes of gaining the preening hens they hope to win…no, …. I do not envy the emptiness you dwell in though for it is the same emptiness all go who refuse to look up in awe of an Awesome God and His Humble hand reached out to man , waiting for man’s chance to end to fill His Creation with Joy.
Hi George,
So, What does this poem have to do with salvation through faith in the shed blood of Christ and the future events of God’s prophecy?
“The Holy Place” is distinct yet one with “The Most Holy Place” since the veil was torn when He gave His life and spilled His Blood onto and within the Earth; thus sanctifying the Earth as His Temple, which was meant to be since the Ark of His Testament/word disappeared during the Babylonian seige of Jerusalem.
Some believe the Ark lies secreted beneath the crucifixion site. This is what I have come to absolutely believe. I believe Ron Wyatt was telling the absolute truth about discovering it.
Thus, the Earth would be “The Holy Place” and where the Ark of His Testament lies would necessarily be “the Holy of Holies”. The Ark of the Covenant being under the crucifixion site would be consistant with how God would do things; that being taking His sacrifice to yet another heretofore unimagined level by making a lowly dusty cave containing the symbol of the most humble act of all time, the Most Holy Place in the Universe.
It isn’t even a quantum leap to imagine that His blood was meant to spill onto the Mercy Seat for all to see at a future date, that He intended long before time, to provide yet another supernatural proof for us of His worthiness as the rightful judge and merciful savior.
Again, I believe that the Earth for which He died IS “The Holy Place” Daniel speaks of. Certainly the abomination has made massive gains in the last 150 years for making desolation. 250 million souls murdered in the 20 century alone, not counting combatants and civilians. 1 billion babies if you count abortions since Roe v,s, Wade. Blood sacrifice? Draw your own conclusions. I’ve drawn mine.
It’s been slightly more than 6,000 years since creation. Do you think God is going to allow this hell to continue much farther into His seventh millenium/Sabbath???
if the holy place is the earth that received the blood at the crucifixion site, then would the antichrist stand there and commit the abomination….this would be outside the city? I have been there. There is a bus station there now.
All I’m positing is that His shed blood spilling onto the Earth means that He thought much of, and loved what and whom He created to the extent that He would give His life for them/us. I’m suggesting further, that the whole Earth is a Holy Place in the eyes of the Lord of Hosts; given that His Son died on and for this Earth and the people therein.
I’m suggesting that the antichrist is committing abomination and creating desolation with the whole Earth.
Are you saying that the crucifixion site that was discovered has now been razed, and
a bus station has since been constructed?
yes, there is a bus station there now.
Re:Local Abomination
Absolutely! The Bible is full of “types”. I too think that there will/is to be a local
abomination as well as global. It would make sense.
When I realized that Solomon’s Temple was a “type”, a foreshadowing, then
considered what might have happened to the Ark of the Covenant because
Solomon’s original Temple became subject to abominatons and then desolation; I
then considered that the Earth was meant as more of a literal temple than as
previously thought, that being spiritual.
If the Earth is in fact considered by God as “His Temple and the people therein”,
it would fundamentally take Golgotha, the crucifixion, where it happened, why it
happened etc, etc, etc – to include the Ark of the Covenant’s locaton to a level
heretofore unimagined.
The concept is staggering to me
SEPTEMBER 11, 2011: THE OBAMANATION OF DESOLATION ALREADY STOOD in A CLONED “TEMPLE” of FLESH (PHARAOH AKHENATEN) on THE HOLY PLACE – 911 MEMORIAL HALLOWED GROUND – NWO MASONIC REBUILT TEMPLE… “FREEDOM TOWER” and DECLARED “BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GOD… I WILL BE EXALTED…” and spoke of DESOLATIONS… HE DID NOT REFERENCE PSALM 46 FROM WHENCE HE SUPPOSEDLY “READ”, BUT RATHER BLASPHEMOUSLY DECLARED. IF/WHEN HE IS REMOVED FROM OFFICE OF PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA, OR IF THE FIAT ECONOMY COLLAPSES, THE CONTINUAL EMPLOYMENT ENDS… THE DAILY ([sacrifice] – was not written in the original Hebrew) or “CONTINUAL” WILL HAVE ENDED… PREPARE TO LEAVE or BRACE FORE DESTRUCTION!! The confirmed or strenghtened COVENANT may be OSLO RESURRECTED, and may be SECRET, until it’s ANNOUNCEMENT or DISCLOSURE… JUST BEFORE DECEMBER 21, 2012 GLOBAL DESOLATION.
THE TWILIGHT ZONE or VIRTUAL REALITY?? BEHOLD THE BEAST: HOLOGRAPHIC ANIMATED IMAGE= AComposite Lord Shiva-Obama in Magical CERN-LHC Stargate: Direct holographic projection in frontal lobe cortex of All hive-minded cyber-slaves via Sky-Net (NWO Iridium internet?) All who receive THE MARK, as now being depicted in the VERIZON Droid DNA “augmentation” commercial with synthetic DNA mutating nano-virus will become “immortal” via god-like DNA, but lose their own self-will & soul, mind-controlled as THE BORG in Star Trek SCIENCE FACTion. (Maybe just a startling dream/vision? A heavy burden for me!)
The Advanced technology is not new… DECEMBER 21, 2012 pole-shift cataclysm the catalyst for global outcry of A New World Order and 1 Leader of the “Save the Planet” Global Religion? This second beast leader, Prince Will-I-AM ARTHUR, depicted in NWO Denver International Airport murals soon to begin global reconstruction after total collapse of governments, fiat finance, all infrastructure?? Compels All to worship the first beast, a fallen SUPERMAN hero from KRYPTON that is believed to have made the ultimate self-less sacrifice for All, like Batman in The Dark Knight Rises… The OBAMANATION of desolation, destroyer of the world, aka Abaddon or Apollyon, ascends from the pit of hell… BLACK HOLE light can’t escape if too close? Come out of her my people…
BY “PEACE” he destroys many: OSLO Accords/ Norway Spiral?
CERN-LHC: SECRET STARGATE KEY made for THE DARK RIFT:
THE KEY to THE BOTTOMLESS PIT of REVELATION 9 & 20 ??
BLACK HOLE PRISON OPEN…”ALIEN” INVASION IMMINENT?
TIME WILL SOON TELL, but what if there’s TIME NO LONGER?
REVELATION 10:6-7 GOD’s MYSTERY finished: RESURRECTION?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/21/newsweek-depiction-obama-lord-shiva-upsets-indians/
http://theopenscroll.blogspot.com/2012/12/new-verizon-droid-dna-commercial.html
The 1st 100 Days: A WHIRLWIND… 2nd 100 days so successful, Barack Hussein Obama finished creative work in 72… and on his 73rd day, OBAMA RESTED. (The Blasphemy is so POTENT)
1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years before DECEMBER 21, 2012?
72 CHIEF DEMONS: http://www.seedtheseries.com/blog/72.html
CHRISTMAS? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaxde9VhZ7c
NEWS: A bad “collective” dream… All Safe now. Satans’s Claws?
1 THES. 5:3 Saying “Peace & Safety”, then Sudden Destruction.
PREPARE THE WAY FOR THE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD. HE IS MERCIFUL, BUT THE AGE OF GRACE IS ABOUT TO END NOW. MAKE YOUR PEACE WITH ALMIGHTY GOD BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE. IF YOU TRULY REPENT OF ALL SINS, PLACE HIM ABOVE ALL THIS WORLD HAS TO OFFER, FORSAKING ALL ELSE THAT COMES BETWEEN, HE WILL FORGIVE & RESCUE YOU IN THE RAPTURE. DUMBs ARE TOMBS. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. IF YOU TRY TO SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE, YOU WILL LOSE IT, BUT IF YOU LOSE YOUR OWN LIFE (AND PLANS DOWN HERE) FOR CHRIST’S SAKE, YOU WILL FIND IT. TRUST HIM AND HIM ALONE.
HOPE TO SEE YOU @ THE WEDDING FEAST OF THE LAMB.
SHALOM.
I think the time lock that unlocks revelation is perception tied with awareness of events not known by those living prior to certain events, but also awareness of past and contemporary events coupled with perception. The Bible reveals things in several different ways. The Bible is also for the heavenly hosts to see that He does actually know the end from the beginning. A correllary of you will
CHRISTMAS RAPTURE??
What if the Abomination of Desolation took place at OBAMA’s 100 DAY MARK, and in the THE WHITE HOUSE, the most Holy Place of the global power elite in the OBAMANATION?? Google: “Obama 72 days” and watch the video.
Luke 21:34-36 Beware A Snare: Satan’s Claws?? Who do you worship??
A “diety” scheduled to come down in Ancient Prophecies @ Christmas??www.thehiddenrecords.com
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2009/04/25/obama-worship-goes-overdrive-100-day-mark-approaches
Len
The 100 mark is way past, and occurred in 2009. However, he still has a chance to do this since he got “re-elected.”
Abomination “is” as Abomination “does”. Desolation is the result. Certainly Obama is “an” anti-christ. Whether he is “the” anti-christ is yet another matter. Is Obama the puppet or the puppeteer? I think the answer is obvious.
Vicaius Filli Dei = 666
Obama’s full name = 666
Obama may be, and likely is, just the tip of the iceberg
Obama is a “type” of Pope. Likely he’s not fully aware that he’s encoded in prophecy, but it’s obvious that’s he’s aware that he serves Lucifer. He’s a puppet. The question is, who’s his puppet master?!?!
Hi Dan and all,
Though the antichrist sets himself up in God’s temple showing himself that he is God, I don’t believe that he himself is the abomination. Consider how the Scritpure is written:
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
In the Scripture above, it has the ruler/antichrist [setting up] an abomination in the holy place, which would show that the abomination is something else other than the one who is setting it up. Revelation 13 would also confirm that the abomination is an image of the beast, and not the beast himself:
“He ordered them to set up [an image] in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.” (Rev.13:14-15)
Though the word “abomination” is not used here in Revelation, I believe that this is a discription of it. The word “Image” is translated from the Greek “EIkon” which is defined as:
eikṓn (from 1503 /eíkō, “be like”) – properly, “mirror-like representation,” referring to what is very close in resemblance. an Image, likeness, bust.
I believe that the abomination will be a likeness that is made in honor of the beast who survives his fatal wound which will be placed in the holy place during the middle of that last seven. If I was someone here during that time period, the first thing that would alert me to who the antichrist is would be the one who makes the seven year covenant, which is what starts the seven year clock ticking.
Personally, I don’t believe that Obama fits the bill for thee antichrist, for this person who is coming will be very charismatic so that the whole world will be in amazement and will follow after him and I just don’t see that as being Obama. We know this, the one who makes the covenant will be the one who breaks the covenant 3 1/2 years later.
Also, I believe that the numbers 666 are more related to his mark, which I believe could be related to the world banking code. After all, it is written that, anyone who does not receive the mark of the beast will not be able to buy or sell. In relation to this mark, I believe that the inhabitants of the earth are currently using the same system that the mark will use. Buying and selling is crediting and debiting ones bank account and today the majority of sales are being performed by the use of debit cards to debit ones account. Today with alll the new devices and apps, individuals are now able to credit and debit each others personal bank accounts. The system to make payments via cell phone or computer, etc using the debit card is already in place and people are already being conditioned and programmed to use it. The only thing that needs to happen now is the emergence of that antichrist and that subdermal device that will take the place of what the debit card does. At some point during that last seven years, I believe that he will make cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete “forcing” the inhabitants of the earth to receive his mark as the only exceptable means of crediting and debiting ones bank account, so that anyone who did not receive that mark will not be able to buy or sell.
People are looking for the numbers 666 to be tatooted on the right hand or forhead and they don’t even realize that they are already using that system by buying and selling using their debit cards. Those who want to be able to continue having a job, paying their bills and just being able to continue living life will receive his mark. Since people are already using the system of electronic crediting and debiting, it won’t be that big of a jump for them to receive their own personal, subdermal device in order to continue doing what they will have already been doing with the debit card.
I was told by an old woman today, whose family is in the illuminati, but she is saved. that
The Only Fourth Kingdom that devours the Whole World is the One World Gov’t at UN- that had Every Country in the world send a rep on 9/8/2000 to vote on NWO?
Have you ever read the Book- “IBM & the HOLOCAUST”
it ells how IBM Computers were used to NUMBER the Jews for Extermination & was the Same Number tattoed on their Arms in the Camps!
Int’l Acess Code to the Master Computer in the EU bldg is 666.
In front of te EU Bldg- is modern Statue os a Woman Riding on a BEAST (LIke Ishtar & BAAL0 Lion of Babylon in Nineveh)? Symbol of the EU-which is connected to the NWO-UN -Poster showed Woman Riding on a BEAST?
It ALL seems to fit?
Iran says it wants to form its own NWO now?
Don,
I have, for some time now, been working on the concept that The abomination, and the events of revelation 13, though related, are not the same event in time.
As with the 200 million man army thing, these things seem to fit together, but one is pre rapture, and one is Post rapture. My proof for this is found in 2 thess. 2:3 “Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come(see 2:1 here for the day spoken of), Unless the rebellion comes first (1st precursor to the rapture) and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. (second precursor), who opposes and exalts himself against every so called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God. (third precursor)
Now if you look at the revelation 13 account, We do not have the “Man of Lawlessness”, but rather the “beast rising out of the sea.” In other words, the newly risen and possessed beast, which had already received the mortal wound, which is hinted at in 2 thess. 2:8.
So what I am saying is first we have….
1.rebellion (Wheat and tares)
2.Man of Lawlessness revealed
3.abomination in the temple
4. Rapture
5. Beast rises…Possessed…given great authority
6. strong delusion (for those who are perishing) via false signs and wonders/false prophet.(2 thess.2:10)
7. Image set up/mark of the beast. Not a temple event as this is not mentioned in rev.13
I am curious to hear your response?
Your next question should be what is the abomination, then?
Hi Dru,
You left out this part of the prophecy:
“And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.”
My firm belief is that the One who is doing the holding back can be none other than the Holy Spirit and not Michael the archangel as some believe. Therefore, since all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, when He is taken out of the way, then we must also go, otherwise it would mean that God would be removing His Spirit from believers and leaving us here on earth to go through His wrath. Also, according to your chronology of events, you have believers being caugh up after the abomination is set up, which I also don’t agree with and that because it would put us through the seals and some of the trumpet judgments, which are all the wrath of God, which Jesus rescues us from and which we are not appointed to suffer.
The book of Revelation is divided up into three sections as proclaimed in(Rev.1:19):
1. Write what you have [seen]
2. What is [Now]
3. what will take place [Later]
What you have seen: What John had seen is represented by everything that took place prior to him being told to write.
What is Now: The Now is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which represents the entire church period, ergo, we are still in the “Now.”
What will take place Later: What will take place Later or after this, is announced in Rev.4:1, ergo, come up here and I will show you what must take place after the “Now,” that is, what must take place after the church period. Therefore, I believe that from Rev.4 on is still future and won’t begin until believers hear that voice that sounds like a trumpet (the Trumpet call of God) which says “Come up here.” Once the church is gone, then the “what must take place later” begins. It is strengthened by the fact that the word Ekklesia (church) is the very last word in in Rev.3 and then is never seen again, but is replaced by Hagios (saint). At the same time, the word saint is never used anywhere in chapters 1 thru 3. I believe there is a reason for this and that is to show that there is a separation between the church and the great tribulation saints as two separate groups. The word Ekklesia/church is missing after the end of chapter 3, ergo, the church is no longer present from Rev.4 on. Since I believe that John is representing the church being caught up in Rev.4:1, then this would put the church as being removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened. Therfore, here is how I see the chronology of events:
1. Church Resurrected and caught up (end of the Now).
2. Man of lawlessness revealed (White horse/First seal)
3. Beast rises out of the Abyss at the blowing of the 5th trumpet (They had as king over them, the angel of the Abyss)
4. Two witnesses killed by the beast (middle of the seven)
a. Satan and his angels thrown out of heaven (3rd Woe)
b. Abomination set up (middle of the seven)
c. Desolation (Israel cared for by God during that last 3 ½ years)
d. Mark of the beast initiated
e. Beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints last 3 1/2
5. Continuation of the trumpets and bowl judgments
6. Christ returns to the earth 3 ½ years later to end the age
7. Angels go throughout the earth and gather Tares (one taken) to Megiddo
8. Satan captured and restricted in the Abyss durng the thousand years
9. Various judgments and other kingdom business
10. Thousand year reign of Christ
Don,
This is par for the course. I understand this interpretation, as I once held this view, and found that it is missing “the Spirit of truth”. I say this not to insult you or others who hold this view, But i encourage you to “think outside of the box” of conventional wisdom. Listen to the Holy Spirit.
Your point on the restrainer is well taken, but an assumption is not a fact. Saying that the Holy Ghost is the restrainer is speculation, as is what I am writing. Instead of defending your understanding try to “stand in the shoes of your neighbor” and see what they are seeing. You might find that this will open a whole new understanding of the Word of God.
The restrainer is a veil, (just speculating of course), which is lifted. if you look at the definition of “Katecho”, you will see that the man of Lawlessness is hindered, by this veil. Just as Jesus revelation of who he was, was obscured so that he would be put to death. The abomination is what will awaken the viewers to see who he is. The verse in 2 thes. makes it sound as if the restrainer is a person, or entity, which may well be. The deception must take hold, fully before he can “declare himself god”.
Do a word study on veil in the old and new testament. When Jesus died, the veil was torn. Veils are given to brides, and worn by harlots.
I am not saying that I know for sure what iam writing is true, but Just like your theory of grouped assumptions, this theory has basis scripturally and can add to your understanding and appreciation of God’s plan. If you do not, your not going to hell or anything like that. I am not, nor ever have been trying to create followers or like minded idiots. Only to edify the body of Christ. I know this comes off as controversial at times, because I will challenge a person’s set of assumptions. Just like the point you made regarding the 200million man army and the King of the east being an assumption that slipped into dogma, I believe that the equating of the abomination and the mark of the beast is one as well.
Oh and by the way, aren’t the tares gathered first in the parable of the wheat and tares?, Yet you have this at number seven, well after the rapture. In my theory, this occurs first.
I will leave it at that. Not trying to step on your toes, only handing you my shoes to wear. God bless. 🙂
Me again,
Dru said:
“Oh and by the way, aren’t the tares gathered first in the parable of the wheat and tares?, Yet you have this at number seven, well after the rapture. In my theory, this occurs first.”
I don’t know what you are referring to above, but this is what I believe regarding the Tares. At the time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, he will send his angels to go throughout the earth to [first] collect the tares (one taken) and they will be taken to the valley of Megiddo where all of those kings, generals and their armies will have been gathered. Prior to that, an angel will have called all the birds of the air to gather themm together for the great supper of God and a double-edged sword will proceed from the Lord’s mouth (The word of God) and all those people gathered will be killed. Then the birds that will have been previously gathered will gorge themselves on their flesh and their souls will go into the furnace (Hades).
dmcal52, Dan, Marianne and all,
One verses is so misunderstood and misinterpreted even by those that translate (NIV and AMP), best to read several translations and look up word definitions. Here is what I learned, resulting in some interpretations and some questions.
Three translations of the Hebrew informative verse within Daniel.
“And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator” (Daniel 9:27, Amplified Bible Translation).
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him” (Daniel 9:27, NIV).
“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate” (Daniel 9:27, New King James).
There are 3 translations, giving a slight variation on the word – “confirm”.
The definition of confirm, according to Merriam-Webster Online.
Date: 13th century
1 : to give approval to. 2 : to make firm or firmer : strengthen <confirm one's resolve. 3 : to administer the rite of confirmation to. 4 : to give new assurance of the validity of : remove doubt about by authoritative act or indisputable fact.
Synonyms for confirm: corroborate, substantiate, verify, authenticate, validate mean to attest to the truth or validity of something.
"He confirms" does not mean that he makes or writes or creates or establishes something new. He confirms what already exists.
"He" confirms with many (UN) every year during the month of September. How many peace agreements, treaties, accords are there that are signed by a President of the United States (with responsible parties), regarding Israel and their neighbors?
"He" stands before many (United Nations) every year confirming peace, human rights, individual dignity and social justice. He gives evidence of deeds, confirming past agreements, listing programs (US dollars) that underscore "our support" for "peace" in the region – for "all parities" and "their collective best interests".
Without the support of the US (establishment to date), there would be no UN. Without the US there would be no agreements, treaties, accords between Israel and their neighbors. Money and military power talks and nations listen.
It is what "he" does in the middle of the 7 years that sets this one man ("leader of the free world"), apart from all the others.
"He shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease."
How can "he"'who is not an Israeli but a closet Muslim, bring an end to daily sacrifice and offeringing (the Law), which has not been performed on the Temple mount for almost 2,000 years?
The Temple will take years to build (something is standing in the way too), but there only needs to be the Altar present to receive the daily sacrifice and an offering.
In order to end daily scarifies and offerings (book of Leviticus) there must be the altar. The Altar is required not The Temple.
The NIV suggests (translates is a stretch), "at the temple he will set up an abomination."
Per the Amplified and New King James translation the Altar is placed on the Temple mount, "upon the wing or pinnacle".
So then, how can "he" stop the daily sacrifice?
He (or an agent on his behalf) would need to defile the Altar, making the Altar "unclean" by appling, sprinkling something not "holy" unto the Altar.
Now let's consider the word desolation and desolate.
Desolate not only means "devoid of inhabitants" or "deserted" but more deeply, spiritually there true meaning – "joyless, disconsolate, and sorrowful through, devoid of warmth, comfort, or hope" (Merriam-Webster).
"He" who performs (or his agent), the act of abomination and all who celebrate/worship and follow him are without the "joy of the Lord" within their heart, hopeless, without comfort or the Comforter (Holy Spirit).
This spiritual condition ( devastating night/day no matter the physical location), lasts until the end of the age and His return as King of kings and Lord of lords. The Lord, strong and mighty, shall put an end to his reign.
Their abomination (rejection of His mercy and grace), by a physical/spiritual act, rejecting His mercy and grace is a hopeless (desolate) condition, and separates them from God, appointing them to His wrath for eternity.
Jerusalem suffers an earthquake, yes. Hebrews will die (2/3 by one account) and Believers and millions non-Believers during the last 3.5 years of Daniel's week. But we who have the blessed hope (helmet of salvation), by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony, even unto the death, we overcome "him" (Rev 12:11).
So, why would the Altar, requried for daily sacrifice per the Law, be so important to the Antichrist?
What could be done to the Altar (physical structure) required for the daily scarific (Leviticus) that would reject His testimony of mercy and grace (1st John 5:1-12)?
Jesus told His disciples (are you one?), that they will see the abomination as recorded in Daniel (Matthew 24:15).
Very soon, His disciples will know the answers to these questions. I have an answer (educated guess), which may be posted soon.
The Lord returns at the last trumpet (7th of the 7 trumpets) and we who are alive are gathered unto Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:11-16).
Prepare for His return with the Armor of Light, Armor of God, and a personal testimony of His mercy and grace, comprehending the salvation of the Blood of the Lamb.
Blessings
ok you are teasing us… 🙂
I thought you were leading up to your educated guess, and you were going to tell us what it was
but now we have to wait…..
Hi DJ,
I believe that it is the ruler, that antichrist who makes the covenent for that seven year period just as the Scripture states and here is why:
“”Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.”
We know from Daniel that sixty-nine of the seven year periods where fulfilled, seven sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and at the end of sixty-two sevens the Annointed One was cut off (Christ crucified). From that time God paused his program with Israel regarding the seventy sevens and began to build His church, which is still in progress. Once the church period is over we will be removed, then God will take up where He left off with Israel and the world initiating that last seven years of the prophecy. There remains one seven year period to be completed of the prophecied seventy-sevens and therefore, the last seven could not be a covenant that will have been previously established, because that last seven marks the completion of the seventy-sevens and that would make it longer than seven years. That ruler, the antichrist is the one who initates that last seven years and starts the seven year clock ticking, allowing Israel to build their temple and to begin sacrifices and offerings, where at the middle of the seven he stops them and sets up the abomination in the holy place. His making of the covenant for one ‘seven’ is the fulfillment of the prophecy of seventy-sevens.
Me again,
Regarding the rest of what you said below:
DJ said:
“He” who performs (or his agent), the act of abomination and all who celebrate/worship and follow him are without the “joy of the Lord” within their heart, hopeless, without comfort or the Comforter (Holy Spirit).
Rebut:
The abomination is an actual image that is set up in the holy place as made clear by Jesus in Mt.24:15.
DJ said:
Their abomination (rejection of His mercy and grace), by a physical/spiritual act, rejecting His mercy and grace is a hopeless (desolate) condition, and separates them from God, appointing them to His wrath for eternity.
Rebut:
Scripture is clear in that, the desolation is in reference to Israel when Jesus tells them not to go back and take anything out of their houses, but to flee when they see the abomination standing in the holy place as listed in Mt.24:15. This is synonymous with Rev.12 where the woman flees out into the desert from the dragon where she is cared for for that last 3 1/2 years.
DJ said:
Jerusalem suffers an earthquake, yes. Hebrews will die (2/3 by one account) and Believers and millions non-Believers during the last 3.5 years of Daniel’s week. But we who have the blessed hope (helmet of salvation), by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony, even unto the death, we overcome “him” (Rev 12:11).
Rebut:
The church will not even be here for these events, for we will have already been removed, as we are not appointed to suffer wrath.
Jesus told His disciples (are you one?), that they will see the abomination as recorded in Daniel (Matthew 24:15).
Rebut:
First, everything that was spoken by Jesus to the disciples was and is meant for all believers during the entire church period. As an example, in the letter to the church of Philidelphia, Jesus said,
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”
Well, that hour of trial, which is synonymous with the day of the Lord, has not happened yet and therefore, Jesus promise was not fulfilled with them, but will be fulfilled with all overcomers who keep his command to endure patiently leading up to when that hour of trial takes place. There are many, many examples where Jesus told his disciples things that were not fulfilled in their time period and therefore will be fulfilled by the disciples who are living at the time those events take place.
DJ said:
The Lord returns at the last trumpet (7th of the 7 trumpets) and we who are alive are gathered unto Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:11-16).
Rebut:
The seven trumpets are plagues that are poured upon the unrepentant and those who continue to reject Christ during that last seven years and there is nothing whatsoever mentioned of the church or anyone else being gathered to Christ at the blowing of the 7th trumpet. Because the Scripture says “at the last trumpet” you are forcing the 7th trumpet plague as being that last trumpet and that without any Scripture to support it. Basically, the 7th trumpet, also the third woe, is when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth where he will go after the woman/Israel and make war against the great tribulation saints for that last 3 1/2 years. But here is absolutely nothing that would support the church as being gathered at 7th trumpet.
dmcal52,
This is written to believers (not just left behinders), as a warning to the fat sheep by the Apostle James. As we read in Revelation 2/3, some of those “churches” need to repent and some have not done so, yet. Time is coming to repent, become the Church that He desires all of us to be, then comes the wedding feast (Feasts of Tabernacles).
“Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!
My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful” James 5:1-11, NKJV).
I leave you to your Pre-Tribber beliefs, not grumbling against one another, lest I be condemned.
I think the Judge is standing at the door, with the early and later rains coming in the first month (Nisan), waiting until the wheat is gathered onto the threshing floor (revival). Then comes the separation of the wheat gathered on the threshing floor, under great tribulation (testing).
You probably do not “see” Joel chapter 2:1-11; 21-24, Malachi 4, or Isaiah 65: 8-16 as I and a few others see these verses.
Oh well. There are a few of us that believe we are His servants (John 2;6-10 and Isaiah 65), active participants in His Army (Joel 2: 2-11) in these last days (Malachi 4) until He comes, gathering us unto Him.
2 Timothy chapter 2 give us this message:
“Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen], so that they too may obtain [the] salvation which is in Christ Jesus, with [the reward of] eternal glory. The saying is sure and worthy of confidence:
If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.
If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.
Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.
But avoid all empty (vain, useless, idle) talk, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. And their teaching [will devour; it] will eat its way like cancer or spread like gangrene. So it is with Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have missed the mark and swerved from the truth by arguing that the resurrection has already taken place (guys that believe in a “Pre-Tribulation rapture”). They are undermining the faith of some” (NKJV).
As for the Last Trumpet. There is a huge difference when the last trumpet and the other 6 trumpet soundings.
He comes on the 7th Trumpet as King of kings and Lord of lords. What follows His coming is the wrath that believers do not experience.
“The seventh angel then blew [his] trumpet, and there were mighty voices in heaven, shouting, The dominion (kingdom, sovereignty, rule) of the world has now come into the possession and become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Messiah), and He shall reign forever and ever (for the eternities of the eternities)!
Then the twenty-four elders [of] the heavenly Sanhedrin], who sit on their thrones before God, prostrated themselves before Him and worshiped, exclaiming, To You we give thanks, Lord God Omnipotent, [the One] Who is and [ever] was, for assuming the high sovereignty and the great power that are Yours and for beginning to reign. And the heathen (the nations) raged, but Your wrath (retribution, indignation) came, the time when the dead will be judged and Your servants the prophets and saints rewarded—and those who revere (fear) Your name, both low and high and small and great—and [the time] for destroying the corrupters of the earth.
Then the sanctuary of God in heaven was thrown open, and the ark of His covenant was seen standing inside in His sanctuary; and there were flashes of lightning, loud rumblings (blasts, mutterings), peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a terrific hailstorm” (Rev 11:15-19, AMP).
God Bless you in the reading of his Word as Paul writes, “…that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins” (Colossians 1:9-14).
Hi DJ,
Um, you avoided everything that I used to support Scripture and went on to write a bunch of other claims. Do you have an apologetic to all that I presented? Since the prophecy is for seventy ‘sevens’ and sixty-nine of them have already been fulfilled, how can the covenant that is made be longer than seven years? And since there are only seven years left to complete that prophecy, you can’t have the covenant that is made any longer than the phophecied seven years. Therefore, the translation is correct in that, he, that ruler, is the one who makes and initiates the covenant for seven years in length and which also initiates the last seven years. I would appreciate it if you would not write anything else other than your answer to this simple question, thanks!
Ps The whole purpose of Dan.9:27 is to show the events that take place during that last seven years, where the Scriptures preceding that verse account for the other sixty-nine seven year periods. Your interpretation that the Scripture is strengthening an existing covenant would put it over seven years in length, which would not be in line with the seventy-sevens.
dmcal52,
I am not a Pre-Tribber, rejecting such teaching as putting faith in a “rapture” from tribulation and not accepting the position of a servant and a warrior in the Lord’s Army during the last days, until He comes at the last trump as we read:
“…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52, NKJV).
Within my long reply above are these lines:
“I leave you to your Pre-Tribber beliefs, not grumbling against one another, lest I be condemned.
I think the Judge is standing at the door (James 5), with the early and later rains coming in the first month (Nisan), waiting until the wheat is gathered onto the threshing floor (revival). Then comes the separation of the wheat gathered on the threshing floor, under great tribulation (testing).
You probably do not “see” Joel chapter 2:1-11; 21-24, Malachi 4, or Isaiah 65: 8-16 as I and a few others see these verses.
Oh well. There are a few of us that believe we are His servants (John 2;6-10 and Isaiah 65), active participants in His Army (Joel 2: 2-11) in these last days (Malachi 4) until He comes, gathering us unto Him. ”
dmcal52,
We agree to disagree in these matters.
You speak of false teaching within Heaven Awaits.
False teaching abounds, wolves are in the pulpits or sitting in eldership positions, they preforming on God TV.
In the past 2 years, I’ve cast out witches from a church, finding wolves in most “evangelical” churches. There is demonic oppression of Jezebel (control), Leviathan (pride), and a great deal of fear, guilt and shame within congregations of believers. Look around your church with discernment, praying fervently that the Light of Heaven breaks the darkness – then watch what happens to the flock and the wolves.
Blessings to you and your reading of the Scriptures.
DJ,
The error that I find regarding the interpretation of when the resurrection and the catching away will take place, is that many do not recognize the difference between common tribulation and God’s wrath. When the early church was being persecuted and killed, it was not by God’s doing, but was initiated by the powers of darkness using men to carry it out. What is coming, is the fulfillment of God’s wrath upon the disobedient, the proud, the arrogant, the unrepentant and those who continue to reject God’s love through his Son Jesus Christ.
His wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments upon those mentioned above. The great tribulation, which is specified as the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, will be taking place through the beast and the false prophet, but it runs concurrently with the seals, trumpets and bowls. We, the church cannot be here during the wrath of God and that because Scripture makes clear that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer it.
It is true that Jesus said that we as believers in Him will suffer trial and tribulation, for this is common for the believer. But God does not send us through His wrath and that because we have already done what He requires through repentance and faith in His Son. Your argument is that we will go through tribulation, but Scripture shows that both the wrath of God and the tribulation brought on by the beast and false prophet are occuring at the same time and therefore we can’t be here.
“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
Escape? Prior to the Scripture above, we read about all of the signs that will preceed the Lord’s return to the earth, then he tells us to watch and pray that we may be able to [escape] all that is about to happen. If these events of God’s wrath and tribulation are taking place, as Jesus said, on [all those] who live on the face of the [whole earth], then what is Jesus referring to when says, watch and pray so that we may be able to escape? If it is happening upon the face of the Whole earth, then there would be no place on earth to escape to. I believe that this is a hint by the Lord of what He told Paul regarding the catching away.
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”
In the Scripture above, Jesus promise to the church of Philidelphia, as well as to any believer who overcomes, is that He will keep us [From] the hour of trial, which is another designation for the day of the Lord. Notice that He does not say that He will keep us through it or keep us safe within it, but that He will keep us from it, meaning that we will not even be exposed to it.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgmenst are all apart of God’s wrath and therefore, we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. This is not a matter of not being prepared oor willing to suffer on behalf of Christ, but escaping from the wrath of God. There is a big difference! For wrath has to do with punishment, but we have been reconciled to God through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
I am ever ready to go through persecution for the sake of the Lord, but I thank God that we will escape His wrath through faith.
the wrath is not announced until after the 6th seal is opened.
I think the seals represent the tribulation, which is man’s cruelty to man
notice that each of the horses represents man’s activity, not God’s.
god’s activity starts with the trumpets , and that is when wrath begins
HI Marianne,
As I have said before, The words “Has come” as in “The day of their wrath has come,” does not infer that the wrath only follows the annoucement, but in fact includes the first four seals as well. Also, how can you say that the seal’s are man’s activity and not God’s, when Jesus is the one opening the seals? God is the one sending out the beast, God is the one sending the red horse which takes peace from the earth and causes men to slay each other, God is the One who causes the famine, disease and the deaths of a fourth of the earth. Jesus is the One opening the seals and He is therefore the one initiating the wrath. Everything from the first seal on, is God’s wrath. If I could paraphrase the verse, it might go something like this:
“For the day of their wrath is already in progress and will be continuing and who can stand?”
Just because the announcement is made at the 6th seal, it does not exclude the seals that had previously taken place from being part of the wrath. The words “Has come” are not restricted to just what takes place following the announcement. The way that you are perceiving the announcement, is like a bunch of runners lined up at the starting line waiting for the ref to fire his gun so that the race can begin. So from your point of view, the annoucement is the equivalent of the ref firing his gun which begins the wrath, but that is not what is happening. The annoucement also covers the wrath of the first four seals that have already taken place as well. In other words, it is an overall annoucnement of what has already happened and what is still to come.
We have discussed this many times before on different posts, but you continue to be stuck on how you perceive the words “Has come” and by them, you interpret them as meaning only what follows the announcement as being wrath. I wish that for the sake of proper interpretation, that God would have put the announcement prior to the opening of the first seal, because the placement of it is what is causing the confusion.
Yours in Christ
man initiates war. not God…..red horse
man comes with antichrist spirit….white horse
man causes inflation and high prices….black horse
man murders the saints, not God,,,,5 th seal
Christ opens the seals, to allow them to happen….he does not participate in the evil that happens.
Excuse me for butting in here, but I believe that this is more or less what Don is saying….
“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. (the resurrection or rapture). Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”
Above in 1 Corinthians 15:23-25., Paul is expressing that “after” Yeshua’s coming, then the end will commence and that He is the One that has been given authority to do it, (John 5:27.), and that Yeshua is the One opening the seals. Ergo, though Scripture may state in Revelation 6:16., that it is the Wrath of the Lamb, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is staring then and now, but in actuality, from when the very first seal was opened initially.
From the opening of that first seal, to the establishing of the Millennial Kingdom, Yeshua is the executor of Gods plan of Judgment, and all of that encompasses what we refer to as “The Day of the Lord.”
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Gracious Savior.
Amen.
I hope that wasn’t an intrusion at all?
Marianne,
Yes, I could not wait. The above reply was like a movie trailer – or preview.
The educated guess is under review and will be sent to you in about an hour. There additional more contributions from a Higher Authority.
tell the higher authority I said “hi”
A cut to the chase;
“the daily” is our privilage to petition directly to God/Jesus for forgiveness of sin — “the man of sin” usurps that, i.e. = Popery — The Papacy presumes to forgive sins in Christs stead. Further, the Papacy centuries later(now) presumes to own the whole world.
The Papacy presumes to change times and seasons. Day of worship = Sabbath/Sunday question. They site their ecclesiastical authority and state Sunday is the mark of their authority. It’s really quite clear
The Earth is 6,000 years old. What do you think the chances are that God will allow this hell to continue much into the[His] seventh millenium? Is the answer right in front of us???
Have almost all of the signs and trumpets happened?
The “mark of the beast” is now starkly evident; and be assured that the Papacy WILL IMPOSE IT upon pain of death. The only way a christian can endure such is to remember the greatest commandment which includes agape/philos of fellow man. A person cannot love God without loving his fellow man
Let no man judge you for your sabbaths, but you are responsible for knowing the seasons
The love of [fellow]man has grown cold
Hi Dan,
Just an FYI, the earth is a lot older than 6000 years old. If you read the account in Genesis, the heavens and the earth are not apart of the six days of creation. If you’ll notice, on the first day God created light and the evening and moring were the first day. The creation of the heaven and the earth is stated as such:
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
The time of creation of the earth is not given, but that it was already there formless and empty and completely covered by water. If it was part of the six days of creation, then it would have been included on day one. It is the gathering of the waters and their separation, the creation of the sun, moon and stars, the animals, birds, reptiles and mankind that is 6000 years old, but the creation of heaven and earth are separate from them, as they are not mentioned within the six days of creation.
Just my thoughts
Good point about the Heavens and the earth created in the beginning. I don’t discount that. It’s very likely true, and if so, a pertinent consideration when looking at the whole picture
On another note; There is a possibility that Woman was created outside the creation week. It’s not a big issue with me, but to consider such might lead to higher understanding. It’s not a stretch for me to conclude that God creates nothing if it’s not better than what He previously created. I dare anyone to challenge THAT premise ;). Woman was a most wonderous creation. It’s interesting that Satan sought to defile the best of what God created. Interesting…
the daily is just that…..translators have inserted the word “sacrifice” where there is no hebrew word for it there……they assume there is a sacrifice, but it does not say that.
so I agree with dan that it is a “dailly” event such as prayer….the jews pray there twice a day…at the western wall..
Marianne,
I agree with you on that one. Since No one asked what is the abomination?, I will tell you that whoever declares it is OK to offer blood sacrifices at the temple is in fact stating that Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient, and therefore is stating that his word usurps The Word, and is acting as God. ONLY God can reinstate any blood offering on the temple mount. If this occurs, the reaction will be swift from the muslim nations, hence Jesus warning to run, when this occurs. The mark of the beast is a whole different thing. People have been combining these two events for years, which should not be assumed.
Good point. I concur
I agree that the mark of the beast is a whole different thing. I think that the mark of the beast is a spiritual thing related to the frontal lobe[higher thought/moral and ethical center of the brain/conciousness
I think that the mark of the beast will be anything that compels man/men to raise his hand{action against} against his fellow man for non righteous reasons; those being anything that tries to compel men to transgress any of the 10 commandments upon pain of death. This would be consistant with the pattern of Rome when it persecuted early Christians for just trying to practice righteousness
Again, you guys ignore Scripture. So much for the fact that without that mark no one will be able to buy or sell. I guarantee you that Scripture is speaking of a literal mark (subdermal device), a literal right hand and literal forhead. We began with paper money, checks, credit cards, then ATM’s, then the POS system and now individuals have the ability to credit and debit (buying and selling) each others personal bank accounts via the debit card through iphone and computer apps. During the middle of that seven years, I suspect that the beast and false prophet will make cash, checks, credit and debit cards obsolete, so that only that subdermal device remains. By making the others obsolete it [Forces] the inhabitants of the earth to receive it in order to be able to continue having a job, paying their bills, gas, food, etc, etc. The way he forces them to receive his mark is by removing the other methods of buying and selling. Make no mistake, it is a literal, subdermal mark that is coming, which has already been manufactured and the populous is currently in the process of being conditioned and programmed to accept the coming mark by their ever-increasing dependency upon electronic payments via the debit card.
Right now the debit card is the key to crediting and debiting ones’ account, but when that beast comes on the world scene, then the key for buying and selling will switch to that subdermal device which will be implanted in either the hand or the forhead. Personally, taking into consideration the worlds desire for convenience and their need to tattoo and body peirce, I don’t see them having a resistance to having a personal, subermal device implanted that will allow them the convenience of crediting and debiting their bank accounts.
I guarantee you that the mark of the beast will be a spiritual mark. Certainly physical things such as credit cards and computer chips will come into play to regulate people’s ability to buy or sell. The “mark” will compel as many as possible to kneel to the false God as happened to Daniel and friends in Babylon. The “mark” of the beast will compel as many who accept the “mark” to participate in the death of those refusing the “mark” of the beast.
The mark of the beast will be a mandate to observe something contrary to God’s law. It could only be thus
The mark of the Lord offers the key to what the mark of the beast anti-type is. Spiritual type/anti-type. There is no debate
Dan
I disagree with you on one point, that the pope is the beast of revelation. I see the catholic church as the “Woman that rides the beast”, and the Pope as 1/2 of the two headed false prophet. Since the events here occur after the end of the age of grace, the Mark could be anything, but I take it as actual worship of the image, much like the ceasars in rome or the Babylonian statue of Nebuchadnezzer. As I believe you indicated above.
The beast is the false Messiah, and the word Image is important here. It could be as simple as an “O”, or as complex as a statue. But an image nonetheless, if you know what I mean? Of course this is just speculation. I think the implant will be the tool used for enforcing the buy sell mandate. A sign of our submission to this false Messiah.
Those who participate in the killings will then believe that they are soldiers in the army of this Messiah, and implementing his wrath.
Hebrew people who hold to the Law will see through this falacy, But much like Israel of old, they will worship foreign gods in the interest of self preservation.
I got a really busy weekend, and will be on the road a couple of days so I will talk to you next year. 🙂
God bless.
Hi Dru,
I’m not sure how I might have inferred that the Beast of Revelation is the Pope. He’s not. He’s the man of sin. He’s the little horn speaking blasphemies against the most high. Most Biblical scholars don’t dispute this. Ths Papacy actually knows what it is. It’s interesting that it still maintains it’s course despite such knowledge. That would lend credence to what the Bible says about giving them over to strong delusion.
Rome is a Beast. The whore is a church(Catholicism-drunk with the wine of fornication and the blood of the saints)
I think it was at the time of Nero that Roman citizens were compelled to have 666 tattooed on their hands.
Worshipping an image of the Beast is correct. It will be something that will denote the Beast mark of authority, and directly contravenes a/the law of God. Credit cards, implants et.al. will be a tool to enforce that abomination. The Abomination will compel man to betray his fellow man and God at the same time. As such, it is encumbant upon us to love our fellow man so that we might understand how to love our God. The two concepts of love of fellow man and love of God are not mutually exclusive, they are one concept.
If one cannot love one’s fellow man, the compulsion will be overwhelming to accept the mark of the Beast. Further, without love of fellow man, most will not even recognize the mark of the Beast.
You are correct Dru. The Mark of the Beast will be a sign of submission to, and acceptance of the ethic(s) of the Beast(Catholicism – false Messiah – Pope).
People who hold to the law of the greatest commandment will see through the falacy of the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast will be as transparent as glass to those who love their fellow man because they will see the error of putting their fellow man to death for such an abomination
Again you are correct. The mark of the beast will/is an image to a foreign god.
The true God wishes us to love our fellow man to show our love for Him.
It’s all really quite simple
Blessings
Hi Dan, Dru and all,
Regarding:
“If one cannot love one’s fellow man, the compulsion will be overwhelming to accept the mark of the Beast. Further, without love of fellow man, most will not even recognize the mark of the Beast.”
I believe that the core reasons that the inhabitants of the earth will receive the mark is for number one, the Scripture states that “He forces” which I believe will be accomplished not by physical force, but by the false prophet setting a time when cash, checks, credit and debit will be made obsolete, leaving only his mark in order to be able to credit and debit an individuals bank account (buying and selling). Just as people currently use their debit cards via POS systems, iPhones and computer devices to perform financial transactions, the mark will replace the debit card allowing the individual to perform those transactions to his/her bank account. Therefore, since the mark will eventually become the only way to perform those transactions, then people will receive it in order to continue to be able to buy food, gas, pay their mortgage, utilities or even have a job for that matter. The other reason will be a matter of worship of that beast, being that it is said to be his mark.
this contasts the reasons / motivations for accepting the mark
worship
“necessity”
Was that word supposed to be “Contrasts?” If you were saying that worship and necessity are the reasons for excepting the mark, I whole heartedly agree. In fact, that is exactly what I said in post. The ablility to continue to be able to live, basically.
yes….worship and necessity are very different reasons for accepting the mark.
Dru,
Please remember that in regards to blood sacrifices, this is Israel who did not recognize Jesus has their Passover Lamb and therefore, as far as they are concerned they are still under the Law of Moses to perform animal sacrifices in order to atone for sins. Those who are in Christ on the otherhand, know that Jesus became our sacrifice by the shedding of His rightous blood, which is what the animal sacrifices were pointing to all along. Your error is that you are speaking for Israel from the position of a Christian. What you know, they do not know or believe. Therefore, since they did not recognize their Messiah, then as far as they are concerned, the Law of Moses with it’s animal sacrifices and temple worship is still in effect.
I agree, and this is what the Antichrist will use to fool the israelites into believing he is their messiah.
Zabach: feasting (1), offer (2), sacrifice (98), sacrifices (54), sacrificial (1), slaughter (1).
Hmmm… I don’t see the word prayer in there anywhere.
Why do you guys keep fighting against what Scripture says?
Thee antichrist, the man of lawlessness, who will make a covenant with Israel and most likely Islam, will allow Israel to do what they have been wanting to do for centuries and that is to restore temple worship. The keepers of the Law of Moses know very well that unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. There will be a temple and everything in it will be sprinkled with blood as perscribed by the Law ow Moses. Since God is going take up where He left off with Israel prior to the building of His church, everything will be just the way it was when he left off with them in order to fulfill all prophecy. Believe what Scriptue says and stop circuventing it! Prayer without sacrifices is not acceptible to them, for even though they did recognize their Yeshua as their passover Lamb, they know that unless there is a shedding of blood there can be no atonement.
dmcal
where are you in daniel?
there is no “sacrifice” in daniel 8:12
no zabach
Daniel 9:27
ok
The Papacy sought to usurp EVERYTHING. It would now seem apparent that the Papacy is worshipping a “lesser god”. Likely so, “the abomination[Satan]” has appropriated “the seat of the beast[Rome et.al.]” and has/is creating desolation to include creating a “hell on Earth[God’s temple and his people therein for whom He died]”
All intent is to erase all that God ordained to include love off fellow man, access to our God, correct day of worship; and even His sacrifice. The
horror of it is staggering.
Another note: King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Revelation 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
1. The Temple of God is us and the Earth!
2. Heaven(s) can be interpreted and “all[that] above”
3. “Our father who art in Heaven[s]” plural in Hebrew
4. The Earth hangs in heaven
5. The most holy act of all time happened at Golgotha
6. There are no thunders, lightnings, earthquakes or hail other than Earth
7. Voices of saints[us] proclaiming His word[Testament]
8. Jesus stays close to His Covenant
9. “was opened’ – “was seen” – “His Temple”
10. Where is the Ark of His Testament???
What do you think? — The Ark of His Testament is right here on His Earth for which He died, and it’s been here since Jeremiah secreted it during the Babylonian siege. How is it going to be opened?
* Will only the saints proclaim the 10 commandments of His Testamony?
* Will the actual Ark of the Covenant be revealed?
* Noah’s Ark has been found
* The actual Mt. Sinai has been found
* The Hebrew camp has been positively found
* The rock Moses struck has been found
* Sodom and Gommorah have been found
* King David’s palace has been found
* Royal seals with scribes names who penned Jeremiah’s death discovered
* Chariot wheels and other parts have been found underneath the Red sea
What’s left to find?
What more proof do we need?
Do we need Noah’s pre-flood farm? How aboout this? “They” know wht this is, they just don’t want to admit it. It’s about 350 miles SSE of where
Noah’s ark was discovered
http://traveltheunknown.com/tripfinder/tour-group/gobekli-tepe?gclid=CKCqh8LPu7QCFSXZQgodLAkA-Q
“There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed”
Is God allowing us to connect the dots???
dan
What do you think is the significance of the Göbekli Tepe site?
something besides what they think?
I think Golekli Tepe is Noah’s farm
The structures are consistant with barns
The height of the stones indicate ceiling heights consistant with the stature of antedeluvian man at that time. Giants bones since discovered all over the world support this supposition
They say that it was artificially buried
They say that it would seem that it’s like an “Ark in stone”
It’s apparent that all flesh was corrupted before the deluge. Animals were preying upon man and beast. Likely God allowed Noah to save “his” animals.
Noah was a husbandman
Noah had many years to protect his domesticated animals is preparation for the deluge
It’s not even a quantum leap to suppose that Golekli Tepe was Noah’s farm/crib/home, whatever
I submit that we are on the verge of time no longer. We are on the verge of “all time”.
The season of man is likely 6,000 years
We are de facto on the verge of the seventh millenium and likely well into the eve of it
Likely God will stop this hell before the 7th millenium
Likley the “little book – sweet in the mouth – bitter in the belly” is opening
Likely every assurance we need is readily apparent
What do you think?
Hell will happen, because man is asking for it, and rejecting God.
Fortunately, God has different plans for those who put their trust in Him.
dan,
For what it is worth, i believe that the new millenium began in 1998. We are currently in the darkness before the dawn, when we will see the bright and morning star appearing. Just as there was 33 years from Jesus birth to his promise realized.
There is much evidence to support your allegation that the new millenium started in 1998. God said that {paraphrased} time will be extended a bit longer so that all might be saved, but cut short lest all flesh die
BTW Dru, it could be that Christ entered the Holy of Holies[the Earth] in 1998. He could be walking the Earth as we speak. We just don’t see Him yet.
Just speculation based upon the supposition that His Earth upon which He committed the most humble act of all time might likely be the actual Most Holy Place in heaven. Such a reality would be consistant with how a humble God might do a thing
Personally, I fully believe that the Ark of the Covenant was meant to receive His blood. If so, the Ark of the Covenant/His testament would have to have been underneath the crucifixion site as Ron Wyatt claimed. That the Ark of the Covenant might be there would be consistant with how God would do such a thing.
All of those other things I listed have been found. I think that the Ark of the Covenant has yet to be revealed, and likely we are close to seeing that revelation. Christ’s covenant with us is the most precious thing to Him, and likely that Ark bearing His blood is important to Him as proof to just and unjust alike that He knew the end from the beginning, and that it’s final proof that He is God; and proof to all that He has the right to judge.
I believe that the Ark of the Covenant is a final temporal and eternal proof that He offers for all.
No ones eternal salvation is dependant upon such a belief in the location of the Ark of the Covenant. But I find the concept fascinating. The possibility stirs my soul
Dan
regarding the earth and creation read romans 8:18-25. The blood of the saints has been spilt on earth for these millenia, and all creation is longing for “what we do not see”. Jesus blood has been sprinkled all across the earth, and soon we will see the fruit thereof, That the creation of God these six millenial days is “very good”, and blessed by him. But before this happens, 2 Peter 3:7
The temple, must be cleansed or consecrated before this can occur.
Revelation says that the ark is in heaven, so I am not sure of Mr. Wyatts claims. The possibility does exist though? I like how you put it though, “The proof to all that he has the right to Judge”. It is really interesting how the Media (world system) is trying to conceal the truth with bogus explanations, such as “ancient aliens”, “Millions and billions of years”, “regional flood” etc, when it is plain to see that the “water is testifying”. “But according to his promise we are waiting for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” 2 Peter 3:13. In other words a “new creation” as Paul called it. These are a blessed hope.
Did you ever see the parallel to satan being released after the millenial rest, and the temptation of Adam and Eve, Which result in Satan’s defeat? It is the end from the beginning
God Bless.
We are on the same page brother. All I’m saying is that Ron Wyatt posed and interesting concept when citing Revelation 11:19, and positing that The Temple of God is the Earth
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the Ark of his Testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail”
* Likely Jesus is His own “Temple”
* “Jesus” wasn’t opened, the Arc of HIS Testament was opened
* There are lightnings, thunders, hail and earthquakes only on
* The Earth hangs in “the Heavens”
* Our Father which art in [[the]Heaven(s)
* Heaven is plural in the Lord’s Prayer
* There “was seen” in “His Temple” the “Ark of His Testament”
* Likely His physical testament[Commandments] stayed with us
* Likely His Temple for which He died is the Earth
* Jesus stays close to His Covenant with us
It depends upon how you “look” at it
Very likely the Earth is His Temple and the saints therein. Cleansing the Temple will be of the defilers; those who would destroy His Temple-the earth.
Likely the earth is His Holy Temple-“The Holy Place”, and likely where ever the Ark of the Covenant is located is likely the Holy of Holies. I believe that the Ark of the Covenant was meant to receive His Blood as a final sign that He actually did the deed. I believe that the Ark of the Covenant was secreted beneath the crucifixion site 540 years before His crucifixion, and it’s been there ever since.
The idea that the Ark of the Covenant is there would be consistant with the way God would do things. A final marker of where the most humble act in the universe happened.
My eternal salvation is not dependant upon believing the afrementioned. But I think that the Ark of the Covenant is right underneath the Crucifixion site, and that’s it’s jealously guarded by the Father who had to watch His Son die
So shoot me for believing such
Don, you are going to enjoy my next post on Heaven Awaits, like you are being set up.
Dan, sorry I missed this comment the other day. I am not denying what Ron Wyatt said, but I will wait and see on this. I know that there are false signs and wonders being proclaimed out there by people who deny our “blessed hope”, the rapture, who would rather have you looking up to them than fixing your gaze on Jesus and the cross.
I do not know enough about Ron Wyatt to make this assesment. while I am away, I will try and do some research on this. If his claims are true, then why aren’t they trying to dig up the ark, and or treasure hunters trying to loot the location? That is where my doubts come from. But like you said, perhaps God is guarding the ark?
Like you said, this is not an “eternal salvation” question. Thank God he does not Judge us based on our knowledge of these events, cause we would all fall flat on our faces.
Take care
Dan said:
“BTW Dru, it could be that Christ entered the Holy of Holies[the Earth] in 1998. He could be walking the Earth as we speak. We just don’t see Him yet.”
Here are the Scriptures which show that Jesus could not have yet returned to the earth:
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ”
“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.”
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.”
“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.”
You know what all of these Scriptures have in common Dan? People will see the Lord visually as He as returns to the earth and therefore, He could not be walking around without the inhabitants of the earth seeing Him. What you are talking about sounds exactly like what Jeholvah’s Witnesses believe. For after their many failed attempts at guessing the date of the Lord’s return, they settled on 1914 as the date that He returned “Invisibly” and by doing so, they could save face anbd get around the Scripture that possitively shows a visual, physical return.
Also, by what you have said, you have become like those that the Lord warns about who say, “There he is, out in the desert or here he is in the inner rooms.” In your interpretation, you ignore the details of Scripture, such as, “Every eye shall see him.”
Please dont think that I’m JW. I’m not. The only reason I speculate that Jesus might already walk this earth is that He might be here for His own reasons. I believe as you/ that He’ll return in clouds of glory for all to see.
All I’m positing is that God is not limited except by the constraints of His covenant with us, and by His word. If He chose to create a new race of sentient gerbils on the side in heaven, it’s ok by me.
Dan, Amen!
Don, Note the similarity in our responses. I was typing while Dan posted his comment. I assure you that I never saw his comment, yet our Spirits are in agreement. This is not an accident, or a coincidence.
Don,
We are talking about the start of the millenium, not proclaiming where Jesus is. We are talking about the redemtion of the creation, and the revealing of the sons of god described in romans 8. I agree we will know it when the Lord comes, But to the ones that are unprepared he will come as a thief in the night.
I have been misjudged and accused many times, but I have never been accused of being a Jehovah’s witness. You of all people should know that.
Creation is experienceing labor pains NOW. that is my point. The fact that Jesus will come in the clouds, does not mean he is not “walking on the earth”. This is denying the Omniprescence of the Lord. I will not fall victim to that deception either. In the Christophany found in the Old testament, Jesus came to Elijah as a whisper, and a gentle breeze, while “walking about on the earth”. We are not saying “he is here come follow us and we will show you where he is”.
Dan is making some very “outside the box” comments. Something you do not wish to try to do. What are you afraid of that you must interject in an open conversation between two people and impose your views. If you want to join in, then by all means do, but do not accuse us of making claims we are not making.
Don, You have put Jesus into your own theological bubble. If something, does not fit your theological bubble you immediately deny its veracity. I realize you have been studying the bible for 40 years now. I know your views are largely in line with the evangelical giant MacArthur who I admire very much. I am not denying what you believe regarding end times…this is not a “salvation doctrine”. God is immense, beyond our knowing. He cannot be put into our box…hence the “out of the box” thinking on my part. The Pharisees knew the Bible inside and out, yet they could not see their saviour and Messiah which was the whole point of the Law and the prophets. Such is faith in human understanding…But our faith is in a living God, the “existant one”, who suffered that we may live, and that we may live abundantly. This does not mean wealth as the world counts wealth but spiritual wealth. I see Jesus as some one who walks and talks with us, not as someone confined to a book and our understanding of that book, or unknown to us until he descends in glory at his second coming. He is most certainly here, now, walking amongst us! Rejoice in this, and may he be praised.
I say this with all the Love and respect you deserve, as a brother in Christ, again, to edify. Again I will ask the question, “can a teacher be taught”? The point of this question is to turn the focus away from us, and to look at our “rabbi”, Jesus, and be taught by him. He is standing at your door “knocking” waiting for you to hear his voice and open the door and let him in. This is when he will “eat with you” and walk with you. This Promise is adressed to a church, and to believers. Believers whose faith is Lukewarm, but if they overcome there is a great promise.
Very good point Dru;
“The Pharisees knew the Bible inside and out, yet they could not see their saviour and Messiah which was the whole point of the Law and the prophets.”
The world doesn’t “see” Him, and His evidence is EVERYWHERE.
Every knee will bow, including Satan’s
Excuse me guys, but you can’t have the thousand year reign of Christ begin until He physically and visually returns to the earth where every eye will see him. Prior to the return of the Lord to begin his millennial reign, that seven years must precede it, along with the fulfillment of the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments and all that is written regarding the beast and the false prophet. The thousand year reign of Christ will not begin until all of those things are fulfilled.
Read the Luke account of Jesus birth. A great promise in a baby was not fulfilled till 33 years later.
Dru,
What you said above does not do away with the chronological order of events that are clealy outlined up in Revelation. You can’t have the Lord returning until after the 7th bowl is poured out. Besides all of the other proofs of this, consider the following Scripture:
“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
After the 6th bowl is poured out, Jesus interjects with the Scripture listed above, which shows that by the 6th bowl judgment he still hasn’t returned yet. It is not until after the 7th bowl is poured out and then we see Jesus returning to the earth in Rev.19:11-19.
Don,
I agree that Jesus will not return until after the sixth bowl physically. Yet you believe that he will come in the clouds to rapture the church which occurs at the beginning of the final seven years. I just think (I will not use “believe”, because of our previous conversation) That there are two sets of events described in the new testament, the “end of the age” and the “day of the Lord”. I have speculated that these are two sets of seven years broken up by 1260 days in which the two witnesses minister. And that the rapture is shortly before the two witnesses. That is my theory in a nutshell.
Read the story of Jacob, and his two wives…two seven year periods, two brides, Bride one, the elder taken first, bride two, the younger taken second. Esau was the elder and owner of the birthright, which he gave to Jacob, Jacob in turn gave his birthright back to Esau, the elder, by rejecting the mercy of the Lord. Thus the elder one is married first (the church), while the younger and more desired of the Lord is taken second (israel). The younger wife died first in Bethlehem, The elder was given honor by being buried with Jacob, in the same place as Isaac and Abraham before them.
This of couse is theoretical, yet if you take this outline of events, the prophecies all fit, though you will argue that they do not fit your theory, which tries to shove all the events of revelation into one seven year period. The contradiction comes with the fact that there are Christians that live through parts of the tribulation…the fifth seal among others, which you explain away as those left behind, while I see them as the whole church…no superiority of churches, as overcomers are spared from all of them, and non overcomers are rejected. two churches have none of the latter. We are, after all, one body….
Try to take this framework of seven years/end of the age….1260 days two witnesses…final seven years Wrath of God, redemption of Israel, and apply it to the numbers of days and to prophecy found therin. The result is no contradictions to be explained away by assumptions…at least none that I have found yet that hold any water.
Actually, your comment on the restrainer is the closest one.
This framework is exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 24…word for word, and ordered as such. with the final seven years/days being the “days of Noah”, the seven days that Noah was sealed in the ark, while the wicked went about living their lives as usual, doubting that the end will come. This apparent peace and security is ruled by the beast, who will appear as the Messiah ruling from Jerusalem.
think about it.
God bless…talk to you next year
I like that point about the two brides.
No argument
Hi Dru and all,
I apologize for interupting your conversation and if you don’t want me to respond, then I won’t. When you post such as the following:
“dan,
For what it is worth, i believe that the new millenium began in 1998.”
The above does not read like speculation, but more of a claim. And if by saying “new millenniium” you are are referring to the 1000 year reign of Christ, then this is why I interjected and that because many events must take place prior to the beginning of the millennial period, such as the removal of the church, the emergence of the antichrist, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, etc.
Also, if thinking outside of the box goes against what Scripture plainly proclaims, then it is not something that is plausible. To be sure, Jesus is omnipresent, but what I meant was that, he cannot be walking the earth so as to allow people to know who he is where they could say to others, “The Lord is here or the Lord is there.” This would be exactly the warning that Jesus gave us when he said, “If they say that the Messiah is out in the desert, don’t go look” and that because it is not Him. Then He proceeded to tell us how the world would know when He returns, like lightning that shines in the east and is also seen in the west. In other words, it will be a world stopping event that people will not have to guess at. So to recap, if by saying, “I believe that the new meillennium began in 1998” is an inference that the millennial reign of Christ has begun, then apply all that said in the previous post.
I asure you that I do not disagree for the pleasure of disagreeing, but only when I see misinterpretation of the Scriptures. Otherwise, if what is being said is in agreement with them, I am also in agreement with what is being said. So, when you say, “I believe” those words tell me that you are convinced of the truth about something, in this case, that the new millennium started in 1998. So, I’m sure that you can understand my concern.
I am zealous for the word of God, for His words sake and because today there are many false teachers and teachings and many are following after them and are wandering away from the truth.
I agree. We are actually on the same page brother. All I’m suggesting is that due to His omnipresence, He’s likely everywhere. Not to be confused with the pantheistic theory however; which is bunk.
It’s Biblical that His spirit is with us. It’s not a stretch for me to presume that He can physically manifest whenever He chooses. Like when He appeared to Saul.
I contend that Jesus can walk His Earth with impunity. Whether He allows any “one” to see Him, or many to see Him is His choice.
I choose to believe that He can do pretty much what He wants within His own law(s). He cannot break His word or Covenant. The Bible does say that wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, there He is also. This verse certainly pertains to His Spirit.
His spirit is certainly present whenever a Good Samaritan tends to fallen fellow man. He see’s every sparrow fall.
Theoretical physicists have proven the existence of multiple dimensions and hyperdimensions. They cited Biblical passages to do it. It’s speculated, and likely true, that Jesus had control of at least 11 dimensions while incarnate; likely more. If all true, then He’s able to do pretty much what He wants. And that’s fine by me.
Don, when I say “i believe” It is a point of conviction in my current set of assumptions…Not so much fact as in TRUTH. The millenium began, and was marked by the Jubilee in Israel. (I did not know 1998 was a jubilee, until it was brought up to me by another person on this site. I resisted at first, but then when I did the homework I had to acknowledge this, in the form of an apology). His reign as king has not begun yet…He has not appeared yet. So I agree with you. Right now this is the end time scenario that I am leaning towards, which comes from years of study like yourself. But I am not so adamant that my opinion will not change, and to present it as Truth.
Do not stretch this “relativism” into my faith however. My conviction and belief is very strong with regard to the uncompromisable aspects of our faith. You should know that from the past. But I am not here to argue doctrine so much, But to bounce my theory off of people I respect, and to edify those who may read those comments. The Lord has given me so much, for me to hold back what he has shown me. I try to share this with those who will listen, and receive those words.
Contrary to what some think of me, I like to be corrected, debated, proved wrong. I am not a “My way or the highway” type of person with regard to end times. I strongly believe that when our faith is tried and tested in these ways, the end result for those who belong to him is spiritual growth. “Just a Closer walk with thee (Jesus)….” for both sides of the debate.
My point, God and his plan are so much greater than our limited understanding, And the more we study, the more we realize how little we know. And when we acknowledge that our knowledge is weak, is when he “sits down and eats with us”.
That being said, I do not want to kick you out of our conversation, as you are one of those people who I respect. I am sorry if I implied this in my comment. That is why I posed the questions to you above.
God Bless you, and I have no hard feelings. I trust the same is felt by you.
All of us are victims. God knows that. To that end it is encumbant upon us to at least try, and remember His promises. He will do a great work in and for all who call on His name.
We must guard against calling wrong right! For therein is the final fulfilling of anyones cup of iniquity. The Canaanites filled their cup of iniquity by sacrificing their children to Molec. Sodom and Gommorah called wrong right. Babylon did it. Rome did it
In the end, the Papacy will do it. The Papacy is doing it now! And the Papacy is compelling people to rip their babies from their very wombs! Human sacrifice on a scale hitherto unimagined! One billion abortions since Roe vs Wade
I ask you, where are we
Hi Dru and all,
You said:
“I have speculated that these are two sets of seven years broken up by 1260 days in which the two witnesses minister.”
I must say that, I have never entcountered anyone who has ever made the claim that there are two separate seven year periods and that for good reason. The way in which we ascertain the seven year time line is from Dan.9:24-27:
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
The time line of the seven years is based on the completion of the seventy ‘sevens’ that were decreed for Daniels people (Israel) and their holy city (Jerusalem) as described in Dan.9:24-27 . Since we already know that sixty-nine of those sevens were fulfilled with the Anointed One being cut off (Christ crucified), we now have one seven year period left to be completed.
Even the book of Revelation shows that that time period is divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods as follows:
* The duration of time that the Gentiles trample the holy city is 42 months, which is also the same 3 1/2 years. (Rev.11:2)
* The time of prophecy for the the two witnesses which is listed as 1260 days-Ibid-first 3 1/2 years. (Rev.11:3)
* The woman is taken care of for 1260 days also referred to as a time, times and a half a time both representing the last 3 1/2 years. (Rev.12:6,14)
* The time in which the beast is given authority and able to make war against the saints and to conquer them is Forty-two months, which is also representing that last 3 1/2 years. (Rev.13:5-7)
Your interpretation of two seven year periods is not supported by Scripture, in that it would increase the prophecy of the seventy ‘sevens’ to Seventy one ‘sevens’ or 71 seven year periods. This of course cannot be correct, because as I said earlier, Scripture shows that out of the 70 seven year periods, 69 seven year periods have already been fulfilled leaving one seven year period left. This alone would frown upon the interpretation of two seven year periods. I would also like to point out that the number seven is the number that God uses throughout His word to represent completion and therefore, 2 seven year periods would be out of character.
You said:
“This of couse is theoretical, yet if you take this outline of events, the prophecies all fit, though you will argue that they do not fit your theory, which tries to shove all the events of revelation into one seven year period.”
Rebut:
There is no shoving of events in regards to the seven year time line given. The prophecy calls for two 3 1/2 year periods equaling seven years total. Even in Daniel 9:27 it states that he makes a covenant for one seven year period and then breaks that covenant it in the middle of the seven, which would be 3 1/2 years into the covenant with 3 1/2 years remaining, which is referred to as the great tribulation.
You said:
“Try to take this framework of seven years/end of the age….1260 days two witnesses…final seven years Wrath of God, redemption of Israel, and apply it to the numbers of days and to prophecy found therin. The result is no contradictions to be explained away by assumptions…at least none that I have found yet that hold any water.
Rebut:
I have found no contrradictions with a time line of seven years which is comprised of two 3 1/2 year periods . What contradictions do you speak of?
Also, you said:
“Read the story of Jacob, and his two wives…two seven year periods, two brides, Bride one, the elder taken first, bride two, the younger taken second. ”
To try to assert that there are two seven year periods in Revelation based on the fact that Jacob worked two seven year periods for each of his two wives is just out of the question. You wouldn’t even be grasping at straws to try and relate Jacob’s seven years of service to each wife as representing two seven year periods that make up all that is mentioned in Revelation. We don’t arrive at the time line by these means, as there is nothing linking the the two seven year periods that Jacob worked with end time events. It is the mention of the abomination being set up in Dan.9:27 and Jesus’ quote from Daniel regarding the abomination that links that seven years with end time prophecy. There is no such link in regards to the two seven year periods that Jacob worked in order to get his wives. To do this would be complete conjecture, that is, no basis for it.
By the way Dru, just curious, but where in Scripture are you getting the extra seven years from?
Don,
You answered the questions you posed in the verse from daniel you quoted above… the only verse that talks of one seven year period in scripture.
The 70 sevens were decreed for Daniels people (Israel) and their Holy city Jerusalem….Which means that the count for Israel stopped with Jesus crucifiction. Israel, has one more seven left, “To finish the trangression, to put an end to sin and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet and to annoint a most holy place.”
By your interpretation:
The age of grace began with the crucifiction, resurrection of Jesus, So whenever this age ends…”end of the age” we will then have another seven years for Israel to accomplish these things. When does the age of grace end? with the rapture. I think we both agree here, yes?
But as per our discussion on Matthew 24, 2 Thess. 2, the rapture cannot occur until after the abomination takes place. I corinthians 15:51 puts this at the time of the “Last trumpet”, which is confirmed by revelation 10:7. What is it that the prophets talked about? the final seven years for Israel. The Old Testament prophets did not discuss the rapture of the Gentiles believers/church, but Daniel 9:24-27 and all the other prophets spoke of the final seven years. So all this evidence leads me to speculate that the final seven years begins, when the two witnesses are done with their ministry, and are resurrected with all of us.
Do you at least see how these prophetic passages agree with these “hard passages” to explain away in your theory? I know you have “explanations” for these, but I do not need any. They all make sense, and fit.
So with this in mind, the final seven years does not begin until after the two witnesses, How do I get another seven years? Actually, I have proposed 10.5 years of events prior to the final week. And in another comment, I have proposed 28 years of events from the 1998 Jubilee year, based on the four birds that Noah sent out of the ark with seven days apart. But most of this is speculation based on current events. which also has been confirming much of what I have proposed. (Note how after Noah sent out a dove that returned with an olive branch, he waited another seven days, we are that olive branch.)
Can I be wrong? By all means. I have been wrong before. You could well be on the right track. But as far as a theory, this one has some teeth. And it does not give up on the rapture, an event which I cannot refute, nor will I give up on this “blessed Hope” of our faith. That would be like Abraham giving up on his God given promises because he did not have a child yet at his old age. He had doubts, but he always had faith. It was never certain, but He knew the Lord would fulfill his promise. Scoffers will be scoffing and saying “where is the promise of his coming?” All I am trying to say is do not give up on this even if it does not occur as you expect.
This, again, is not an attack on your interpretation. There is no need to defend yours, Only to consider and correct mine. I am not looking for followers, but to edify the body of Christ.
1 Peter 1:3-12
Hi Dru,
I thought that I presented it clearly, but allow me use a different format in regards to what Scripture is saying, opposed to what you are claiming:
Scripture:
Seven ‘sevens’ = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem
At the end of Sixty-two ‘sevens’ = Anointed One cut off
7 sevens plus 62 sevens = 69 sevens
This leaves 1 seven year period unfulfilled which is revealed in Dan.9:27.
Dru’s version:
7 sevens plus 62 sevens = 69 sevens
2 sevens left = 71 sevens
Right now we have 69 sevens completed and only need one more to fulfill the prophecy of 70. Yet, you have said that all that will take place in Revelation will be for two seven year periods that will bring prophecy to completion. Since we only need one more seven year period to complete the prophecy, your claim of two seven year periods goes over the 70 sevens making it 71 sevens. Do you see what I am saying? In other words, since the propohecy is for 70 sevens and 69 of those have already been fulfilled, how then can you claim that there are two seven year periods left?
Biblical “Beasts” are Nation/empires
The “Mark” of the Beast will be/is a symbol is it’s authority
The Beast = Rome – The new Babylon
The Whore = Catholicism
Catholicism-Whore/Rome-Babylon/scarlet beast are one
The “Mark” = The mark/symbol of it’s ecclesiastical authority
Mark of the beast is a symbol of worship
The “Mark” has already been established, and it has been for hundreds of years. It’s been mandated in the past, and will again. It’s in the process of being mandated now
The “Mark” IS recognition/acceptance of(thought/decision-frontal lobe) or
action of compliance with mandate
“to receive a mark “IN” not “ON” their right hand , or “IN” not “ON” their foreheads” — very important distinctions between “in” and “on”
The “mechanism(s)” to be used to compel/CAUSE the “Mark” can/will be legislation, credit card(s), implants, ID’s, lack of employment, etc.
{CAUSED, COMPEL, NOT FORCED, TO TAKE THE MARK}
Again, the mark will not be forced upon anyone. It will be eagerly accepted by most, who will be deceived by the signs and wonders performed by the False Prophet
And that no man might buy OR sell, save he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast,OR the number of his name
————————————————————————————————–
God Reveals his Mark
According to the scriptures, 666 is the number of man. Regardless of how it eventuates, it will literally, and voluntarily, be received IN the right hand or forehead
The meaning of “the mark” has always been a much talked about mystery. There are endless opinions and theories about the number, how it relates to the beast, and how the masses will accept “the mark”. Some believe the Mark of the Beast is a computer chip implanted into ones right hand or forehead, while others believe it represents “this or that” government program (e.g., National ID cards, Social Security numbers, and so on).
However, the scriptures clearly state that the number identifies a person, it is the number of a man, and when one takes his mark, he will knowingly and willingly worship the beast/dragon/satan.
The one true God of Heaven has warned us in advance about this, through his prophetic word. Revelation 13:18
The Bible makes a distinction between 666 and the Mark of the beast.
————————————————————————————————-
The final mechanism used to ATTEMPT TO CAUSE/COMPEL the “Mark-symbol of authority-worship” will be death penalty if refused
Until the death penalty is imposed, we could see anything
————————————————————————————————-
What the actual Mark of the Beast is, is hidden in plain sight.
The Lord’s sysmbol / Satan’s symbol
Type / anti-type
Botherly Love / Lack of love for fellow man
————————————————————————————————-
Hint – No one can love God and not love fellow man
————————————————————————————————-
Hint – 777/666 7 trumps 6
————————————————————————————————-
Hint – The greatest commandment is included 7 times in the Bible
————————————————————————————————-
Google Ivan Panin for one of the greatest discoveries of all time
————————————————————————————————-
Sincerely,
Dan
Dan, and others,
Here is a site on Panin, for those who do not know of him. He is well worth the read. Thank you for pointing him out to us.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/panin2.htm
Here is one that many are not aware of. 6x6x6=216 the 216th day of the year is August 4th, except on a leap year….I will let others figure out who that points to.
God bless
August 4, 1961
The date claimed that Barry Sotero was born
The many other coincidences are overwhelming
———–For your consideration and possible edification—————–
——–Are the last cards being played? You be the judge————–
—————A compilation for your convenience—————————-
===================================================
Barack Hussein Obama = 6+6+6 = 18
——————————————————————————————
Obama previously married? To a man?
http://www.mycrazyemail.net/2012/08/evidence-obama-was-married-to-pakistani.html
Islamic wedding ring?
——————————————————————————————
Insider: Bill Clinton Told to Keep Quiet about Obama Eligibility or Chelsea Would be Murdered
——————————————————————————————
Is This The Speech That Cost Breitbart His Life? Michael Savage Says: Maybe Assassinated!
——————————————————————————————
their is no need to built any temple for antichrist(me) or christ(me).christ and antichrist are one.in book of revelation john wans to take some revenge which you all unable to understand and he changed christ into antichrist……i have taken birth in india and soon i will enter in rome…….i m the onlyone who knows real mystery which is hidden from 2000 years and kept safe in vatican only pope knows that real jesus will do what?no indian can guess my work or iran or china can stop my work……..i will come soon to take my 2000 years old box and 2000 years old ornaments from britain……..my mission is necessary for you all and my mission is nuclear disarmament……when i will open 2000 years old mystery every country will have to destroy their nuclear arms…….by peace or by war
Jesus said there would be false Christs coming into the world before his return.
It sounds like you are one of them.
I would encourage you to give up this fantasy, and learn about the real Christ and Messiah.
You need him more than you think.
no pagan god can substitute for him.
Yes, I agree with Marianne. Claiming to be the Messiah is probably one of the worst things that anyone can do, for the true Christ warned us about imposters and there will be grave consequences for those who do. Come to your senses and repent.
Oh Brother!!!
Real Kalti, are you at all aware of how ridiculously transparent you’re declarations render you?
Your declarations mean notihing to other contributers within this blog.
Please seek life elsewhere
Dan and dru,
Wow! Counting of words (original text) have meaning too?! Amazing.
The Word is sharper than a two edge sword in more ways than one (pun intended).
Check out Hebrew letters. This from Hebrew for Christians, by John Parsons.
The Mystery of Nun (Hebrew letter).
Gematria of Nun
According to Jewish gematria, Nun represents the number 50 – a number representing freedom and fullness of life.
50 days from the Exodus to the giving of the Torah (50 days for the count of the Omer)
50 years for a Jubilee Year (yovel)
50 references to Exodus in the Torah
50 years of age before one has wisdom
According to the Chaz’l (sages), Nun is said to represent both faithfulness and the reward for faithfulness. Moses is seen as the paradigmatic humble servant of the LORD.
You will need to visit this link to see letter in it’s Hebrew written form. The letter look means something too!
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Nun/nun.html#Advanced
In Aramaic (the language of the Talmud), the word Nun means “fish,” a symbol of activity and life. The first mention of the word is in Exodus 33:11, in reference to Joshua, the “son of Nun.” Joshua, the one who succeeded Moses and was able to enter the Promised Land, was the “Son of Life” – a clear picture of Yeshua our Messiah.
We are going to learn so much during eternity with the Lord that it will take an eternity to learn.
THE OBAMANATOR did the deed, under a gathering cloud of darkness in APOCALYPTIC SANDSTORM. His Honor, cut short, by the hand of ALMIGHTY GOD!!
THE “KING OF PEACE” HONORED on MR. PEACE PRIZE’s 1260th DAY?
DANIEL 9:27 MR.PEACE causes PASS-OVER & PILGRIMAGE to CEASE?
FIRSTFRUITS HARVEST?? TIME to PRAY & PREPARE 4 DEPARTURE!!!
THIS WILL BLOW U AWAY.
http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/discovering-the-jewish-jesus/player/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qucPX4_w48&feature=share NEO-JEEZY in an OPEN DISPLAY “AS GOD”?
PEOPLE OF GOD HEAR AND LOVE THE TRUTH….GET OUT OF THE CHURCHES OF CATHOLICS, CHRISTIANS, ISALAM, MORMONS, JEHOVAH WITNESSES, NUNS, MONKS, TV NETWORKS, WEB SITES, RADIO STATIONS, BUSINESSES, ETC! I AM WITNESS!!! BEAST HAS ASCENDED OUT OF BOTTOMLESS PIT AND IN PERDITION REVELATION 17:8. THERE ARE TWO IDENTICAL JESUS..
SEEK GOD AT HOME FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY TO RECEIVE SEALING OF GOD REVELATION 7:2-3, 9; ISAIAH 26: 20-21; JOEL 2: 28-31; ACTS 2:2-3, 16-20! PEOPLE OF THE EARTH HAVE LESS THAN TWO YEARS AND LAST YEAR GREAT TRIBULATION!
GOD WARNED NOAH! BE WATCHFUL IN PRAYER NOT IN CHURCHES, MAN AT THE PULPIT, WEB SITES, ETC
HEAR MY TESTIMONY ON VIDEO JUST GOOGLE “CHRIST TESTIMONY OF THE CHURCHES AROUND THE WORLD”
THE FOURTH BEAST AND KINGDOM IS THE CHURCHES ON EARTH. MOTHER CHURCH REVELATION 17:5,11! ALL CHURCHES HAVE SAME ROOTS HAS MOTHER IN ROME-MINSTERS, PULPIT, CONGREGATION, CHIOR, CELBRATE SAME FEAST DAYS REVELATION 11:10; REVELATION 18:22-23, COMMUNION WAFER/JUICE, DISCIPLES, MONEY, BUILDINGS BUILT BETWEEN THE SEAS, AND THE LIST GOES ON AND ON! ALL CHURCHES SPIRITUALLY CONNECTED TO GREAT CITY. THIS SPIRITUAL CITY OF INQUITY IS ABOUT TO RECEIVE HER HOUR OF JUDGEMENT!
IMAGE OF MAN MADE INTO AN IDOL ISAIAH 9:6 NOT CORRECT. THE TORAH ISAIAH 9:5 CORRECT. ACTS 17:11 THE PEOPLE SEARCHED THE TORAH TO SEE WHAT PAUL WAS TELLING THEM TRUE ABOUT CHRIST IS THEIR MESSIAH. WORDS OF PROPHESY CRYSTAL CLEAR REVELATION 13:8; ISAIAH 14:12-14!
IMAGE OF MAN WORSHIPPED (RAISED PLATFORM) IN CHURCHES (HIGH PLACES), TV NETWORKS, WEB SITES, ETC. AROUND THE WORLD. THIS IS IDOL STANDING WHERE IT SHOULD NOT IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION. SPIRITUAL DESOLATION HAPPENING INSIDE ALL CHURCHES AROUND THE WORLD. CHURCHES WORSHIP THRU THE FLESH THE WORK OF MAN’S HANDS! THE MARK IS SPIRITUAL AND COMING FROM TEACHINGS OF ISAIAH 9:6!
SPIRIUTAL PLAGUES COMING UPON THE PEOPLE IN THE CHURCHES, TV NETWORKS, WEB SITES, AS MENTION PREVIOUSLY!
CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD! THAT IS THE TESTIMONY OF THE BODY OF CHRIST. 1 JOHN 5:4-5, FOR WHATSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD OVERCOMES THE WORLD: AND THIS IS THE VICTORY THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD, EVEN OUR FAITH. WHO IS HE THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD, BUT HE THAT BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD
BUT THE HOUR COMES, AND NOW IS, WHEN THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH: FOR THE FATHER SEEKS SUCH TO WORSHIP HIM. GOD IS SPIRIT AND THEY THAT WORSHIP GOD MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH!
US VETERANS MEMORIAL -SHUT DOWN RESPECTS/PILGRIMAGE ON NATIONAL SACRED GROUND? A HOLY PLACE, LIKE 911 GROUND ZERO MEMORIAL “BE STILL & KNOW THAT I AM GOD…” -OBOMBA.
THE DRONE KING is NOT JUST PRINCE OF PEACE PRIZE ANYMORE… HIS AWESOME TOYBOX INCLUDES REMOTE CONTROL F-16 FIGHTER JETS TOO NOW… JUST UNVEILED!! LUST TO USE ULTIMATE MILITARY & INTEL POWERS @ NSA? WHO CAN MAKE WAR WITH THIS BEAST?? OBAMACARE: A BEASTLY MONSTROSITY?
OBAMACARE (TEMPLE TAG-TAKEOVER) LAW +1290= ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION @ WWII MEMORIAL?? MATTHEW 24:15 GET OUT OF JUDEA!! THE OBAMANATOR PLAYS FOOTSIE with IRANUKES… BIBI BYE BYE> GONE HOME ALONE… OCTOBER 7, 2013 = TRUE TORAH ROSH HASHANAH?? 1SON HASTENS… MARANATHA!! -REV.22
DANIEL 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (ISON PLOWS MARS)
HEBREWS 12:22… 1SON HASTENS… PREPARE 4 A SHA-KING!!!
OCTOBER 7 ROSH? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fmqb2fC0qY
READY FOR RED ROCKTOBER – OBAMACARE LAW+1290??
The Obamanator stood in what he called “Holy Space” @ Arlington Memorial Cemetary today. Did he “belong” there? Looked Awfully Awkward after Arlington shutdown October 1, 2013 – And
After A11 @ the VA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaABbLuXFMA SUPERMAN?
Daily Pilgrimage & Daily Sacrifice of the Sentinel?
daily sacrifice refers to the holy place in the jerusalem temple. (daniel)
id like to examine this topic from the perspective of John 2:21. Has anyone done this in detail ? If the 3rd temple is a building, i cant find clear reference to that in scripture. But John 2:21 leads me to think, that The Antichrist will actually enter a human body (Satan totaly posesses a person, happend once before – Judas).
how would one read Dan 11:31 and Dan 12:11 in the light of John 2:21 ?
If anybody can help me with this..
thnx
Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Hi all
We talk the same thing here in our country. Indonesia. South east of asia
Some mysteri we have
Several people from Tibet comes and said that Indonesia have a strange and strongest of power than other place in the world
You can see the pic on the top of the blog. The named is Borobudur Temple
And when you go there you can see the carving pictures on the wall
About man bird. A grail. Holly man.
Some people said the story of pictures said about ark of the covenant, holly grail and Jesus and His fam.
And some pic said about many race people comes from arround the world to meet our majesty.
Roman egypt india etc.
see in this blog
Hi all
We talk the same thing here in our country. Indonesia. South east of asia
Some mysteri we have
Several people from Tibet comes and said that Indonesia have a strange and strongest of power than other place in the world
You can see the pic on the top of the blog. The named is Borobudur Temple
And when you go there you can see the carving pictures on the wall
About man bird. A grail. Holly man.
Some people said the story of pictures said about ark of the covenant, holly grail and Jesus and His fam.
And some pic said about many race people comes from arround the world to meet our majesty.
Roman egypt india etc.
see in this blog
https://akigendengbanget.wordpress.com/
We have Prophecy thats already happens 90% alredy done
Just the last thing we wait.
About mesiah
See in here
http://www.maitreya.org/english/Newsbrief/2011/4-July-August/Articles/Prophecy-Satrio-Piningit.html
BB
the winged man is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl
he is not Jesus….he is satan disguised as a man.
the Mayans also had experience with the bird man.
http://www.azteccalendar.com/god/quetzalcoatl.html
their temples are similar to yours.
http://www.touropia.com/ancient-mayan-temples/
I agree with what say. Thank you. May yahshua bless you. Amanda.
“the site where the holy place used to be, when the temple was still standing. This currently is inside the Al- Sakhra Mosque- on the Dome of the Rock”
No, it is the Al-Aqsa mosque, to be precise.
The dwelling place of the Lord[naos — http://biblehub.com/greek/3485.htm%5D is the earth
The abomination of desolation is currently standing where it ought not. The Abomination of desolation is the last beast of Revelation ridden by the harlot. This last beast with the harlot is Roman Catholicism church and state. It currently runs the world.
Roman Catholicism appropriated Palestine many years ago. Vatican II will soon be set up in Jerusalem. It doesn’t get clearer.
lagenie
I cannot be where the Al-Aqsa mosque is, because it is on the south side, against the south wall.
the original temple was in the center of the mount, with the main sanctuary towards the western wall but not touching it
the main entrance was though the eastern gate,
here is a sketch of the jewish temple:
In the past years there has been many speculations that Anti-Christ and unholy priest will be coming from the Catholic Church. At least that is what I was taught from the pulpit. This was until I have a better understanding of Islam over the past 20 years and their aggression towards non-Muslim people by the cutting off of their heads that they do not choose to follow Islam. I have since changed my understanding due to increased information and knowledge that the antichrist will come from Islam and most likely from the Arab nations of Islam. Since the Alasque mosque is currently built on the temple mount I do not believe the temple or third temple needs to be built. I believe we will see a significant escalation of Islam and the antichrist if or when there’s an agreement to split Jerusalem between the Jews and Muslims. Or, the Islamic war falls over into Israel by force the Jews are made to leave Israel if that were possible.
Marianne – I concur with the writer who addressed the body as the temple with Yahushuwah as the Head and all the parts jointly fit together by Him. I would observe that people need to focus on being “fit vessels” so that they’ll be fit parts to be joined. Modern believers are told they are under grace not the law so they think they can pretty much coast thru their lives without concerning themselves too much with any law. It’s important to note that Yahushuwah said “who is he that loves me? It’s he that keeps My commandments and obeys Me.” . In other places we are told “be ye holy for I am holy” and “without holiness no one shall see Yahuwah”, The apostles all admonished the believers to walk in obedience to His law, out of love for Him, just as He did because of His love for His (our) Father. We’re advised to watch therefore and pray, in order to not miss the signs of His coming, also. The Law (Torah) was given to Moses on Mt Sinai and Yahushuwah said the 10 commandments are observed when one loves Yahuwah with all one’s heart, soul, mind, and body, and one’s neighbour as one’s self. If one does that then against that LOVE therie’s no law.
So let’s focus on being fit vessels (parts) of His temple (body) and leave all the other stuff in His hands rather than arguing over things which profit nothing.
gitardood
nice to hear from you. yes I agree, that ultimately, the body /soul is the true temple. I do not know if there will be a physical structure or not, but if it does, it will help mark time and let us know where we are at in the end times. if there is not, then we may be farther along than we want to be, and much will happen soon.
I agree.
Eglon earth tax lord 777 ……. you know me feel my presentation , you’re conscience feels my transformation I’m the truth of all ? …
There is no need for a temple to be built by men, God will make the new temple himself, radically changing the geology of Isreal. That landscape change will happen as Jesus sets his feet on the mount of Olives.
Zechariah 14:4
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
The new temple in Ezekiel chapters 40-48 had no Sin offerings. Christ has fullfilled the need for them. Christ is the High of that temple. The offerings are for the purpose of a reminder of what Christ has done for us.
During the 7 year Tribulation peoples scarfices and worship to God will be cut off. This is a repeat of what we saw in Babalon. King Nevercanzer (spelt wrong) tried by law to force all men to worship the image of him and his kingdom. Remember the golden Statue he made, representing the kingdoms to following after his own. This statue appears all of gold, I suspect in an attempt to make his Kingdom stand forever. The anti Christ too will attempt to establish his Kingdom in like fashion after 3.5 years. This starts Gods wrath and the finial, 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
No temple was needed in Daniels day and so non would be needed now. The scriptures wouldn’t require a temple anyway if you took it as a physical prophecy. You need only an alter and Holy place, the temple mount or even other Holy spots like mount zion would do. In the old Testament offerings where made in those locations too. I hold to this event to being one of false worship of the whole world and not a temple offering. The true sliding scarfice of Gods praise is what’s at stake. The Antichrist will attempt to prove he’s God deceiving even the Elect if possible.
[…] https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/does-the-antichrist-need-a-temple-to-stand-in-the-holy-place/ […]
Does the Antichrist enter the temple or a holy place? | ddnnews said this on August 30, 2016 at 6:16 pm |
I just read according to Israel that Trump plans to build the Temple.
Bad move !
????
see my reply to anna below
anna
I see this in the news
https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/78372/bin-exclusive-sanhedrin-asks-putin-trump-build-third-temple-jerusalem/#KS3XBEg26TTtQiwd.97
israel has asked putin and trump…there has been no reply from trump or putin that I know of
While trump has been elected, we have to wait to see what obama does next from preventing him to take office in january…I expect a “disaster” or a contrived “issue” of some sort.. alot can take place in the next month
It is my belief that we place too great an importance on how God has worked out all things together according to HIS PURPOSE.
IT makes no difference who builds an additional area on the Mount or if the existing area is used. We WILL KNOW WHEN IT HAPPENS as the ANTI-CHRIST will make himself known by committing the Abomination of Desolation.
I have struggle with the correct interpretation of this for a long time! “Standing in the holy place”…. Christ has FINISHED the work of salvation! The “Temple” is the redeemed.
Christ was our sacrafice…once and forever!
So….even if a third temple was built….it could NOT be holy!
Eglon Earth Tax Lord 777 is ready to enter the church to perform an act your church’s and sheep’s will be left in dispute and confused of who your God is ?
Your faithful one
Antichrist…….
eglon
I am not confused who God is.
and when you show up, I will know who you are also.
when the truth is IN us, we can see what is around us as true or false.
greater is HE that is in us, than he that is in the world 1 john 4:4
Donald Trump is the antichrist
you are funny, donald trump is cyrus,
obama is a/c
Islamic theology also has an eschatology they are also awaiting a visitation maybe the dome will go the same root as the shared status of the building in Hebron Moslems are expecting an appearance of holy figure Thessalonians ch 2 v 4 tells us the man of sin will want to be over all forms of worship he won’t be able to do that unless he can fool the two mainstream religions in the region l think a shared building will provide that space
No I don’t believe so. The Holy place to me is simply the Antichrist standing by position in declaration that he is God. Trying to dethrone the Lord Jesus Christ. He can do that anywhere. All those in the past who claimed they were Christ did not do it standing on top of the temple mount. They have done it amoung their followers all over the world. Christians are the true temple where the Holy Spirit dwells. I think that all who are looking for a temple to be rebuilt are mistaken and are being deceved. I may be wrong but it is food for thought.
I think the setapart place is the pineal in our brain. It is done.
Brett (parentheses are mine, not the Bible)
Did you know that every day on the temple mount there are Muslims that call out across Jerusalem that Allah is God? Did you know that the Dome of the Rock has made the temple mount desolate by not allowing people up there unless they are Muslim since it was built in 688 AD? That’s 1260 years before Israel became a nation in 1948. It was erected 42 months of years before Jerusalem was taken back by the Jews in 1967. That said…
Rev. 11 says Rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein (temple mount in Jerusalem). But the court which is without the temple (where the Dome of the Rock is set up) leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles (Muslims): and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (of years). And I will give power unto my two witnesses (Christians and Jews) and they shall prophesy 1260 days (of years) clothed in sackcloth (desolate, mourning).
If you read Ezekiel 38 it’s like reading the frontpages. Turkey is emerging as the leader of the caliphate, Russia is reluctantly joining in with Iran and all their peoples to join forces against Israel. That said…
Ezekiel 38 says And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog (Russia/Turkey) shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face…Surely in that day, there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel.
Ezekiel 39 tells more.
Thought you would want to recognize that it is all in the Bible. Ezekiel 36 and 37 describe how Israel would be regathered back to their homeland. It reads like a history book. It says they will be there forever.
Antichrist Eglon earth tax lord 7 NEW WORLD ORDER LEADER…….
I think so. But only God knows! Maybe a regional war breaks out and Israel destroys the DOTR!
I do believe that the second coming will happen soon….
Maybe we got some of our eschatology wrong.
But……HE IS COMING!!!
dogan
I agree. let us prepare ourselves!
Marianne,
When you have started this site?
I guess, around 2007 or 2008.
This page Antichrist and Abomination of desolation written before 2009.
More than 15 years?
I am a Roman Catholic.
My view:
According to St.pope list pope Fransis is the last person, and going through many troubles.
Recent war in Ukraine, Russia started.But
Western group don’t destroy Russia because of fearing nuclear attacks.
I think, Russia will attacks another country.
For Roman Catholics, we have churches and it’s tabernacle, priest keep Holy Eucharist inside of that. I think, one day we don’t have this holy place. So daily sacrifice or church to attend for holy mass will be finished.
Will it happen in our generation?
Are we now living in the last 7 year period?
No one knows.
St.Malachi Pope list
2008
I guess there are different interpretations of where the holy place is. And yes it is possible with the rise of the Antichrist that churches will be destroyed. And that people will have no place to worship as a group. That in that moment we will have to worship just in our hearts