The 144,000 and the rest of the Jews
Art used by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992. To order prints visit her “Revelation Illustrated” site, http://revelationillustrated.com.
There are about 13 million Jews in the world at this time, who will return to Israel in the last days. Only 144,000 young Jewish men are selected by God to be sealed before the tribulation. What about the rest of the Jews?
The 144,000 are mentioned three times in the Book of Revelation:
(1) Revelation 7:3-8
saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
The rest, who have not been saved yet, but who will accept their Messiah’s salvation later, are described after this:
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, you know. . And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So we see, that not just 144,000 Jews “make it to heaven,” as some people think, but many more do also. They have been persecuted or put to death as martyrs of the faith. They have been tested as faithful during the tribulation, and made it to heaven.
(2) Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
(3) Revelation 14:3-5
And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Who are they?
From some interpretations, one gets the impression that the entire population of Jews in the world will return to Israel, and only 144,000 get saved when the tribulation comes. This is not what it says above.
Special points about this group:
1. they are young men only
2. they are not defiled with women – virgins
3. they follow the Lamb (Messiah) wherever He goes
4. they are first fruits to God and to the Lamb
5. they have a special song they sing that only they could learn at the time it was given
6. the tribulation is about to begin, but they will not be harmed.
Obviously, God will not ignore innocent men, women and children whose hearts cry out to God for salvation, and accept their Messiah.
The point of the tribulation is to give mankind one last chance to repent, before the wrath of God hits. God would be wasting his time doing this, if He had already picked out the only ones to be saved before the tribulation starts.
The 144,000 just happens to be a special group – the first to be saved in the land of Israel, that God sets aside as his first fruits. FIRST fruits means there is MORE fruits to come.
The Bible NEVER says the first fruits (144,000), were the ONLY ones saved during this time, only that they were selected out, sanctified, away from others, marked and sealed for special service unto the Lord.
So, what does “first fruits’ mean?
Reference:
You shall count for yourselves — from the day after the Shabbat, from the day when you bring the Omer of the waving — seven Shabbats, they shall be complete. Until the day after the seventh sabbath you shall count, fifty days… You shall convoke on this very day — there shall be a holy convocation for yourselves — you shall do no laborious work; it is an eternal decree in your dwelling places for your generations. -Leviticus 21:15-16, 21
Shavu’ot, the Festival of Weeks, is the second of the three major festivals with both historical and agricultural significance (the other two are Passover and Sukkot). On the calendar, it come 50 days after Passover.
*** As the new disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit on Shavuot, which marks the beginning of the church, it seems significant that another set of new disciples should be chosen on Shavuot to signal the end of the church age, end of the possession of the kingdom by the saints, and the onset of the tribulation, the final week of the 70 weeks, to fulfill the prophecy in
Daniel 7:21:
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
***The tribulation, then will be followed by the kingdom of the Messiah, as Messiah rescues his people Israel.
Agriculturally, Shavuot commemorates the time when the first fruits were harvested and brought to the Temple, and is known as Hag ha-Bikkurim (the Festival of the First Fruits). Historically, it celebrates the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, and is also known as Hag Matan Torateinu (the Festival of the Giving of Our Torah).
The period from Passover to Shavu’ot is a time of great anticipation. We count each of the days from the second day of Passover to the day before Shavu’ot, 49 days or 7 full weeks, hence the name of the festival.
The counting reminds us of the important connection between Passover and Shavu’ot: Passover freed us physically from bondage, but the giving of the Torah on Shavu’ot redeemed us spiritually from our bondage to idolatry and immorality.
Shavu’ot is also known as Pentecost, because it falls on the 50th day; however, Shavu’ot has no particular similarity to the Christian holiday of Pentecost, which occurs 50 days after their Spring holiday.
***note. The 144,000 are the first fruits unto God and the Lamb. Their sealing will be beforehand, before the tribulation, and then presented to God on Shavu’ot, or Pentecost, as Christians call it, which will occur 50 days, or 7 weeks after the Passover of that year. The first-fruits of the field (“reshit,” “bikkurim” of corn, of wine, and of oil) belong to Yhwh.
In Rev 6:6, the Lord commands to the angel opening the 3rd seal:
“…and do not harm the oil and the wine.’”
Symbolically, the Lord might be referring to the 144,000 here, as his first fruits. The oil and the wine also represent the Holy Spirit.
First fruits also includes the “first born.” So we see that these young people are selected as the first born, but not the only ones, born again unto the Lord. God will still bring in the rest of Israel for his final harvest.
*** Because of God’s tradition here about the giving of the Torah on Shavuot , I believe the first born (first fruits) have been selected to give the Torah to the rest of Israel, and to bring others into the kingdom of the Messiah.
Shavu’ot is not tied to a particular calendar date, but to a counting from Passover. (Hence, as Jesus said, you cannot know the day or the hour).
Because the length of the months used to be variable, determined by observation, and there are two new moons between Passover and Shavu’ot, Shavu’ot could occur on the 5th or 6th of Sivan. However, now that we have a mathematically determined calendar, and the months between Passover and Shavu’ot do not change length on the mathematical calendar, Shavu’ot is always on the 6th of Sivan (the 6th and 7th outside of Israel.
Shavu’ot will occur on the following days of the Gregorian calendar:
Jewish Year 5768: sunset June 8, 2008 – nightfall June 10, 2008
Jewish Year 5769: sunset May 28, 2009 – nightfall May 30, 2009
Jewish Year 5770: sunset May 18, 2010 – nightfall May 20, 2010
Jewish Year 5771: sunset June 7, 2011 – nightfall June 9, 2011
Jewish Year 5772: sunset May 26, 2012 – nightfall May 28, 2012
The Feast is one of the three times when all young men were required to appear before the Lord, a pilgrim festival (Exod. 23:17; 34:23, Deut. 16:16).
Historically, the main activity on the Feast of Pentecost was the presentation of a wave offering to the Lord, two loaves of bread with leaven (Lev. 23:15-21). The bread was to be brought with seven male lambs, a young bull and two rams as a burnt offering (Lev. 23:18). The sin offering was a male goat (Lev. 23:19).
*** Here, before the tribulation starts, we see the young men (144,000 virgins) appearing before the Lord as a wave offering to Him.
The wave offering expressed the Hebrews’ dependence on God for the harvest and their daily bread. This was a thanksgiving offering. The link between Passover and Pentecost is the omer.
Another reference on the first fruits:
Ceremony of ”Bikkurim”
Shavuot was also the day on which the ”Bikkurim” (first fruits from the seven species for which Israel is praised) were brought to the Temple in Jerusalem by each individual. These species are: wheat, barley, grapes, figs, pomegranates, olives, and dates (Deut. 8:8). In the largely agrarian society of ancient Israel, Jewish farmers would tie a ribbon around the first ripening fruits from each of these species in their fields.
** notice there are 7 kinds of “fruit” to pick. This reminds us of the 7 attributes of the holy spirit in
Isaiah 11:2-3
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
At the time of harvest, the fruits identified by the ribbon would be cut and placed into baskets woven of gold and silver. The baskets would then be placed on oxen whose horns were laced with garlands of flowers, and who were led in a grand procession to Jerusalem. As the farmer and his entourage passed through cities and towns, they would be accompanied by music and parades.
At the Temple, each farmer would present his ”Bikkurim” to the Kohen Gadol (High Priest) in a ceremony that followed the text of Deut. 26:1-10. The ceremony of ”Bikkurim” conveys the Jew’s gratitude to God both for the first fruits of the field, and for His guidance throughout Jewish history.
** the 144,000 are the bikkurim to be presented to the Kohen, Gadol, who is now Yeshua, the Messiah, the most high priest of God.
Other uses of the number 144,000 (incidental information, may not be relevant):
Baktun is 20 Katun cycles of the ancient Maya Long Count Calendar, which contains 144,000 days (400 lunar years). This is an interesting coincidence, since the current “era” on the Mayan calendar ends about the time the Messiah is thought to be due to come.
God told Abraham in Genesis 15:13 that his descendants would be afflicted in a foreign land for 400 years (144,000 days).
There are 144,000 days (400 years) between the old and new testaments. Maybe the 144,000 represents the time between the new testament biblical time of Jesus and his ultimate return.
A child’s innocent heart beats about 144,000 times a day. The virgins are innocent).
There are 144,000 seconds in 2400 hours.
144000 / 60 years Israel has been back in the land = 2400
Daniel 8:13- 14 says:
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
America has been around for about 144,000 days (400 lunar years). since 1607.
Israel has been around for about 4000 years. (144,000 x 10 days), if one counts from Jacob, and about 4100 years if one counts from Abraham.
There are 144,000 limestone casing slabs that over lay the great pyramid
http://onlineessays.com/essays/history/his280.php
Isaiah 19:19-20 says,
“In THAT DAY there will be an ALTAR to the LORD in the MIDST of the land of Egypt, and a PILLAR at the BORDER thereof to the LORD. And IT shall be a SIGN and a WITNESS to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He shall send them a Savior, and a Great One and He shall deliver them.”
The new Jerusalem will be of 144,000 cubits in breadth and height.
Revelation 21:10-13, 15-17, “He carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her Light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; and had a wall great and high, and had TWELVE GATES, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the TWELVE TRIBES of the children of Israel:
On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. . . And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lies foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs.
The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, 144,000 cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.”
–
**** Extra note:
All the Jews have value here. The 144,000 are those who are sealed, because they will be exposed to the dangers and need the protection the most. They are there to witness to the rest of the Jews and to the world. That is why they are “first fruits.” There are more “fruits” to come.
God does take care of the rest of Israel. He is coming for the entire nation, not just the 144,000. If you look in Revelation 12, the woman (Israel) is protected by God in the wilderness when Satan comes after her twice. He also inspires the “earth” (new believers who have come to faith because of the 144,000) to come to the aid of Israel when she is being attacked.
The entire nation of Israel is holy unto God. So are non-Jews who will be saved because of the witness of Israel in the final days of the tribulation.
See also:
The Jewish return to Israel in the end times.
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The 144,000 and the rest of the Jews « Heaven Awaits said this on May 19, 2008 at 4:08 pm |
Thank you for this article. Some good points. Where in scripture does it say the 144,000 will only be men? Also, do you think the 144,000 will be from all time (6,000 years) or from the last days?
Hi Shoshanah
Traditionally, in the old testament, it was young Hebrew men that brought forth the first fruits at Shavuot. However, since this occurs in the future, it is hard to say, since it does not mention the gender of the 144,000. I am assuming that the 144K is from the remnant that returns to Israel in the last days, and not the reincarnation of previous people.
blessings
marianne
“For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women” I think that is key. Only men can be defiled with women. Far from being symbolic of a number of people, I think if the scripture meant to imply both men and women, it would have said they hadnt defiled themselves, period.
First of all, “defiled with women,” has absolutely NOTHING to do with sex, it’s talking about false religion. These people have the truth in their heart and mind. Also, a virgin is a person that is saved because of the precious blood of Jesus. God says they are “virgins” meaning he sees no fault in them. Please be be very careful when you quote the precious word of God. I understand you believe that but I guarantee you that women will be among the 144,000. I pray that your eyes will be opened. You’re seeing in the flesh not the spirit, be careful. God Bless ans Peace be unto you.
Idiotic
Lynda, you are absolutely correct. People take too many things in the bible too literally. The woman is the church, not Israel. Women will be among the 144,000. And I know many of you will not accept this but most of the people who call themselves Jews today are not true Jews. Moreover, few of them even know what tribe they belong to. But God knows. God has never lost track of any of us and he knows which tribe we belong to.
Dear Amardo
This group is unique as you say, and dedicated to a special service the Lord. I pray there will be many saved during the Tribulation through their example.
blessings
marianne
The Elite is to be taken special care of because they are more important than ordinary people?
“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
The servants I’m sure are are the dedicated followers of the true God. And as soon as they are secured it doesn’t seem to be that important to save the rest. And considering Deuteronomy 6:15
—
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
—
it’s obvious that “the others” is of lesser to no value.
Based on some of the comments above it is, sadly enough, made perfectly clear that the same “I am better than thou”-attitude still is out there.
Hi Terry,
Maybe I should make some extra notes.
All the Jews have value here. The 144,000 are those who are sealed, because they will be exposed to the dangers and need the protection the most. They are there to witness to the rest of the Jews and to the world. That is why they are “first fruits.” There are more “fruits” to come.
God does take care of the rest of Israel. He is coming for the entire nation, not just the 144,000. If you look in Revelation 12, the woman (Israel) is protected by God in the wilderness when Satan comes after her twice. He also inspires the “earth” (new believers who have come to faith because of the 144,000) to come to the aid of Israel when she is being attacked.
The entire nation of Israel is holy unto God. So are non-Jews who will be saved because of the witness of Israel in the final days of the tribulation.
blessings
marianne
Please visit >http://www.electsfire.com< and click unto revelation, and there you will find a most amazing holy revelation! It is about the 12,000 sealed. And I do think that the 144,000 are of both gender, because with the Eternal there is neither male nor female, nor jew or gentile.
P.S. I love your site. Very well done!
Hi Abigail.
Thank you for the kind words, and the link. The future is becoming electric, isn’t it?
blessings
marianne
No Marianne … the future is becoming dark.
It appears to me that the 144,000 are also the “5 Wise Virgins” who go to the wedding feast as recorded in Matt.Ch.22 and Luke Ch.14. It also appears that the 3 1/2 years of Jesus’ ministry was a precursor to the LAST period on Earth, because Jesus’ first Miracle was at a wedding feast with a small group whereas at the END of His ministry, when Jesus was “Chosen” as the Passover Lamb on “Palm Sunday” they strew Palm branches before Him, and this is also the same “Picture” given in Revelation when the numberless Host who go through the tribulation, will attend His “Coronation” together with the resurrected Saints, at the general harvest. The fact that the 144k will go to a wedding feast, is recorded in Luke 12:36 as Jesus coming BACK after the wedding! The End Time is Less than one generation, or 50years as God instituted the Jubilee as well as the age whereby the Priest was to Cease from his work in Numb.8:25,26. The End Time starts at the Unification of Jerusalem on the 7th of June 1967, being the fulfillment of the Times of the Gentiles. (Luke 21:24) The Time of the End Timetable is recorded in Rev.11:1-3. We measure the “TEMPLE” (See John 2:20)- 46years to build, 47th year in service! It is also broken down as – 40years from the ALTAR (Cross – AD.30) till the Temple’s Destruction, where people still WORSHIPED in it till AD.70. We then get 2 lots of 3 1/2yrs after that 40 years making a Total of …40+7= 47years.
Hi Olaf,
I understand some of your reasons, and I do not understand others. But I think I understand your conclusion. I would expect Jesus to take to safety all those who believed in him.
1967 + 50 = 2017
so, 2017 – 7 = 2010, start of 3 1/2 years?
Hi Marianne,
When Jesus left the Temple to go to the Mt of Olives, He gave the prophecy of it’s Destruction. The Disciples understood the Prophecy ALSO to be the END of the World, as Jesus was given a question of WHEN all these things would take place, and WHEN we could expect ALL these predictions to take place. The MAXIMUM time was LESS than ONE GENERATION. As Revelation was written AFTER the TEMPLE’S destruction by about 20 years, Revelation Chap 11 uses the TIME SPAN of the Duration of Temple use, AFTER the Cross, before it was destroyed. [40 years] … it then adds on Two lots of 3 1/2 years – ie 7years. This 7 years, is broken up in two phases. The first fruits [(new)Jerusalem]of 144,000 Cubits would be trodden down, then the SECOND 3 1/2, The Beast will rule the Whole Earth, coinciding with the coming of Moses and Elijah. These are Prophesied in the LAST three Verses of the Old Testament! In James 5:17 it tells that Elijah HAD already rehearsed with God’s people for 3 1/2 years! The TWO Witnesses are these two who came to encourage Jesus in the time of preparation to take on Humanity’s sins on the cross [Luke 9:31] and during the Second 3 1/2years, THESE two Witnesses would perform miracles that they had previously done on earth with God’s people. The 7 Trumpets [New Year announcements] are also coupled with the 7 Seals [a recapping of the year’s events], but the TWO are not in phase. The trumpets start the SECOND year of the HEPTAD [7-years]the First Trumpet sounds. – This is brought out in the 7th trumpet about to sound, THE END had already been accomplished.
Thus … <[less than] one Generation = 40+7 = 47years [John 2:2]
6/7/’67 Plus 40y = 2007 (12th Sept 2007) Start of Heptad.
Dear Olaf,
So if things started 2 years ago, where are all the events?
It depends on what you mean by EVENTS. Revelation Chapter 18, I would say describes the 9/11 Event, but that was before the last Trumpets and Seals were to take place. The “Beast” is not just ONE aspect of the Final WORLD Governing Power. Jesus uses the picture of a BEAST to denote a POWER. As you asked about “Events” just as the powers depicted as a Beast or Animal, depending on what translation you take, One cannot be certain that the event of 1/3 of the earth burning up and 1/3 of the trees burning up and …ALL of the green grass burning up.[Rev.8:7] and later for the 5th Trumpet, the grass, plant or trees were not to be harmed. [Rev.9:4] …Can we take the Pictures given as the actual things represented? Do you expect to see a mountain on fire being tossed into the sea? [Rev.8:8]
I am, like anyone else who is willing to learn about Last Days events, constantly seeing things unfold, and like we are all admonished to do, we are to WATCH, and it would be senseless to watch if we knew everything beforehand. I am just a “Man off the street,” without formal Theological training, but believe in Jesus’ promise “…Seek and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you”. What I found in my search, is that the Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the U.N. – It has the “G7” and the 10 TRADE Centers. [Depicted in the first digit of the UPC (Bar Code) which is in the format 1/6/6 (in most cases) and we will soon see a continuation of this Identification process to include Livestock (And Humans) with a 6/6/6 number, whether it be in the form of a Laser Tattoo, or a Silicone Chip]
I see that the Devil, since 2007, tried to confuse the world by making the “G7” into the “G20”, but in 2011 we should see the “Crowns” of Sovereignty be removed from the “G7” (heads)[Rev.12:3] by the Serpent-Led U.N. and Placed on the 10 W.T.C. (HORNS) when it takes control [Rev.13:1] This event is also noted
in Rev.17:12,13. The TWO-Horned Beast is a LAMB-Like beast that speaks like a DRAGON. [Rev.13:11] [The Beast that has the FATAL wound is ONE of the Ten Trade Centers (WTC)] THIS new beast does not come from the SEA (Rev.13:1), but from the LAND (Like a river, the land adjoining the river is a BANK) so this beast from the Land is a BANK – 2 horned Bank …IMF and World Bank. As it appears, the New “Twin Towers” Beast that was healed will have the IMF/World Bank situated in that new building![Rev.13:12]
I don’t know if you have seen the events of a few months back where fires destroyed hundreds of homes and killed hundreds of people in Victoria, [Aust.] and recently also in the U.S.
These events could be seen by satellite! We still have till September, before all Events of the first trumpet are to take place. [If you note that the 7th Trumpet announces that time is no longer applied – Rev.10:7]
You state that the 144000 are Jews ,let quote that they are from the 12 tribes, when did the other 11 become JEWS?
And if they are JEWS then there are no other tribes.
You should read what you write,before speaking for Yahweh my Elohim1
When Yahweh has said nothing.
The 144000 is Judah and Israel/Ephraim ,that is the 12 tribes not one,but 12.
It amazes me how many times you people get it wrote.
Then run off the mouth why your think your correct.
If that fails than you claims how much education you got,but your still wrong and changing the Word of Yahweh.
Just amazing
Ephraim,
The tribe names are listed in Rev. 7. They are all considered “jews.”
Marianne – Show me in scripture where ALL the tribes are considered Jews? It does not say that. Is says “remnant of Israel”. The Tribe of Judah is listed, The tribe of Dan is not. All the tribes are not Jews. Jews are only from the tribe of Israel and did not exist before Judah. I also wonder why none of the Jews address Revelation 2:9 or Revelation 3:8-9 when it speaks of those “Who say they are Jews but are not, are liars and of the synagogue of Satan”.
You are correct in saying that more Jews will be included in the “multitude that no man could number” in Revelation 7. But to call all the tribes of Israel “Jews” is false and false teaching, my friend. They are the children of Israel and that is all. Don’t misappropriate the word of God. There are verses in the Bible addressing that too.
Correction on the first paragraph – the sentence “Jews are only from the tribe of Israel” should have read “Jews are only from the tribe of “Judah”. This is why Israel and Judah are referred to separately in Isaiah and Jeremiah when described as playing the harlot.
hi michaelsguardian
There is the strict definition you use, which is technically accurate. And there is the broader definition used by those of Israel and its Jews, which includes all the tribes.
Also, in scripture, “Israel” included all 12 tribes at one time, and only later was divided into the northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern kingdom ( Judah, mainly with Benjamin and Levi).
After that, at times they were distinguished as Israel and Judah, or Ephraim and Judah.
Other later times, they were all just known as Hebrews, and as all Israel, with some of them being “lost.”
At the time of Jesus, the northern kingdom had been scattered, and so there was just the southern kingdom present. They were all called either Jews or Hebrews. But the disciples were sent to the “lost tribes,” which were reachable in distance at that time. Most were in Asia Minor, and just north of the land of Israel.
SO, even though they were lost, over time, they were all still considered Jews, or Hebrews.
The term “Jew” became a convenient word to describe all the Hebrews. So, it lost its specific reference to one tribe.
That is the way I use the term in this post.
Hope that helps clear up my definitions.
thanks!
Hi Marianne – sorry about the very OUTDATED reply. I just noticed this thread was back from 2009 after I posted.
The “broad definition” as you describe – which “Israel” are you talking about? That that currently occupy the “State” of or spiritual Israel? They’re not all Jews, so I prefer to stick to scripture where that is concerned. Using the term “Jews” is misleading to those we are trying to teach. And it is used to abuse by those that “say they are Jews and are not.” Severe abuses.
Israel DOES include all twelve tribes (except Dan in Revelation because of the first of the tribes of Israel to plunge into idolatry). Hebrews are OLDER than Israel. According to biblical tradition, the Hebrews are peoples descended from Shem, one of Noah’s sons, through Eber, the eponymous ancestor, and Abraham. Gen. 7:22. Jews are not considered Hebrews and as a matter of fact true Hebrews are oppressed in Israel.
There is no scripture backing up what you are saying. Jews are Judah. Period. This to me looks like an effort to give Jews an identity that Biblically they do not have. I’d like to know why you are doing this. There is no need to. Jews have equal opportunity to be saved. Spiritually, according to Ephesians 2 we are all children of Israel as believers in Christ. There is not even any need to separate Jews from them unless of course they WANT to be separated and that is their individual choice. Jews are the ones that have caused Christ the most problems in the Gospels and New Testament and I believe this is why some want to re-write the Bible. You have modern practitioners of Judaism that are the most vicious and libelous toward Jesus (read the Talmud – It’s the whore of Babylon. These are the people who constantly confronted Jesus).
I am not accusing you of anything mind you, I am only pointing out error or deviation from what the scripture says. In these times it is important not to blur the lines, child of Christ . . . okay? Love . . . Bonnie
hi Bonnie
I was just explaining how the term Jew is used by Jews. No matter what tribe they are from, none of them call themselves Israelites.
Modern Jews, and for centuries back, all consider themselves jews, no matter what tribe they are from. For that reason, I use the generic term as well.
Natural Israel practices “Judaism,” not “Israelism.” It is this faith that makes them all “Jewish.” or it is the heritage of Israel that makes them all Jewish ( ie Israelites).
They all consider themselves Hebrews also, and yes, this term goes back further than the man Israel (Jacob).
Recall that even in the NT, Peter writes to the Hebrews, and does not call them Jews in the book. Jesus called everyone in the land of Israel “jews,” no matter what tribe they were from, and Peter called them hebrews. Same group.
More than the tribe of Judah was present in Jesus’ day. Benjamin was present, and so was Levi. Hence the priests in the temple.
St Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, yet he called himself a Jew. (Romans 11;:1) He also called himself a “hebrew of hebrews,” as well as an Israelite.
So, it seems that the word Hebrew and Jew were interchangeable in the time of Christ.
Those that say they are Jews, but are not Jews, refer to those in natural Israel that refused to accept their Messiah. Messiah arose out of the Jews, to minister first to them, so that they could be the light to the nations predicted in Isaiah.
But only a portion of them accepted this salvation, so only a portion of them converted from being natural Israel to spiritual Israel.
Currently, the state of Israel consists of natural, unsaved Jews, saved jews ( Messianic jews, spiritual Israel ), christians and muslims.
So is the state of Israel spiritual or natural? the answer is that it is a mixture of both.
as for the talmud, I suggest you visit a local synogogue and ask to see the copy of the talmud which sits on the rabbi’s shelf.
read it.
it will not compare to the false talmud some muslims and antisemites have posted on the internet to slander the Jews.
the talmud is a compilation of civil laws. it is oral tradition which explains the complex aspect of Mosaic law in more detail. it does not mention Jesus. It was written in babylon before Jesus was here on earth, while the jews were in captivity.
Mirianne,
I can see that your intent it to misinform and mislead. Romans 11:1
“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”
He said “I am an Israelite”. He does NOT say “I am a Jew.”
Jesus does NOT refer to all Israelites as Jews. The FALSE JEWS of his time do that. And the Muslims have nothing to do with the “false” Talmud. I have a copy. I know what it says and I know that JESUS KNEW these people mislead with the law of man. Why do you think he constantly confronted them on their doctrine BACK THEN?
I am also not ignorant of the abuse of the term “anti-Semite” since very few of the Jews of modern day Judaism are not even Semitic but European converts. The “natural” Jews that you speak of, when they were FOUND by the U.S. Government and Israel (some in Ethiopia might remember Operation Moses and Operation Solomon (there’s a kicker for you . . . Solomon?) to relocate them to Israel, RE-educate them and to this day they are discriminated against pretty much like the U.S. did with the blacks in the 1940’s – 1960’s.
The TALMUD was put in written form before Christ curing the captivity by Nebuchadnezzar . Why do you think Christ knew about their deceipt and knew what they were doing? It was in oral form until the Babylonian captivity and it has grown into VOLUMES since then. It does not mention Jesus by name, you are right. They give him a couple of different nicknames as well as Mary, his mother. The “Muslims” lived in peace with most hebrews until Britain got involved – and the French and Bavarian converts decided to try to rush biblical prophecy. But they’re not innocent either. They are just another version of Talmudic corruption. One of his wives was a Jew and he was corrupted in much of the same way that Solomon was.
Why do you think the church of Smyrna and the church of Philadelphia are warned about the false Jews and the synagogue of Satan in Rev. 2 and 3? (What other religion calls their buildings synagogues?) This is what we have occupying Israel. It’s the same false religion.
You are aware of course that you can’t just walk into a Synagogue and ask for a Talmud right? Especially if you are “Goy”?
Why would the “Jews” need anything other than the Bible? Why would they need a VOLUME of books (Which is what the Talmud is) to explain what is perfectly explainable in scripture?
If you want to twist God’s word to try and back up the lies, you are the one that will have to answer to it. But I reiterate and it is backed up SCRIPTURALLY – Jews are Judah. Period. Israelites are the TWELVE TRIBES of Israel of which the JEWS are only ONE OF.
Our discussion is done. You can do with this comment what you like but I will not be lead astray. Thank you for your time.
Mirianne, Just to let you know, You can find a copy of the Qu’ran in most city libraries. You can find copies of the Holy Bible. But copies of the Talmud are unavailable and not found in libraries. We checked. We called around the country.
I’m not going to explain to you why that is. I’m sure you know. Have a nice day.
who are “we?”
You are misinformed. I have read parts of the talmud. it is not as you say.
your views are your own, and I do not agree with you. but I allow disagreement.
muslims have rarely lived in peace with hebrews, jews, or whatever word you use.
muhammed started out his political career by slaughtering a whole group of them, and the attacks have been going on for 1500 years, including helping Hitler in Nazi Germany.
peace.
I´m reading Talmud in Swedish so Talmud is translated in every languages.
It is written in the Quran to eradicate Jews from the Arab peninsula. God has been struggling with the Hebrew people for thousands of years. God can see into the future and God would not fight with them and then want to exterminate them. Islam is Satan works and it does not take much intelligence to understand it.
Muslims ARE Hebrews. They are Semitic just as Israel’s children are. They are corrupted just as the Jews were and the Children of Israel. And yes, I am aware of the Muslims working their way into Khazar. I also remember what the Jews did to the Muslims.
The “Jews” of the Holocaust were actually ALL people that did not agree with the occupation of, and petitioned Britain NOT to allow for formation of a state of Israel – those TRUE Jews – the Kariates, believed it was against God’s will, being the only Jewish sect at the time that recognized their exile from Israel. THEY, along with blacks, Americans abroad, Catholics and the poor who disagreed with Hitler were the included in that Holocaust.
Hitler was Jewish. His father was the illegitimate son of a Rothschild and a Jewish maid.
Arabs, Istone ARE HEBREW. They are Semitic! You can find THAT evidence anywhere on Google.
Islam is the fall guy for the Whore of Babylon – The Babylonian Talmud. It tells you in the Bible who the Whore of Babylon is –
Amos 5:26
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Acts 7:43
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. And it doesn’t take a “Talmud” to explain GOD’S WORD.
see blow to continue. do not post here. column too narrow
Sharia is copied and modified from Talmud and God will send Muslims to hell after the doom.
Exactly my point Istone. How would Muhammed get ahold of a Talmud to modify it if not for one of his wives? Especially since the Talmud has grown over time? and Marianne, I am not misinformed. You are misinforming. I obtained the whole talmud from someone who converted FROM Judaism. The “we” is a group of people that have all TRIED to inquire about getting copies of the Talmud from libraries across the country. Doesn’t exist. But we can get a copy of the Qu’ran. Show me where it says Jews must be irradicated? Show me one country that hasn’t said the same thing about Jews – Even Britain pre-Rothschilds.
If I am misinformed, I guess that means you don’t agree with scripture. You never answer my questions, you only lob accusations (I’m misinformed even though I back it up with posted scripture).
I know the history and I’m well versed in the Bible. I’m not one of those ones you can roll over.
Who are the “false Jews” in Rev. 2:9 and 3:8-9? Who does it say plays the harlot in Jeremiah?
Why do the Jews need a VOLUME of books to explain the Torah when the Torah explains itself? scripture wasn’t good enough for them?
Who is it that Jesus, Peter, Stephen and Paul have the most trouble with in the New Testament?
Why do the majority of Jews living in Jerusalem, and those who make up it’s government call themselves Semitic when they are not even Semitic but Eastern European converts?
Jesus said the law is not going to save us. Jesus said, “Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.” – John 8_43-45.
Who was Jesus talking about? Muslims? They did not exist as a religion back then. So PLEASE inform me if ME and the BIBLE are so wrong?
Where is
None of you are correct. Please watch this video for starters…
Please watch all 8 parts to the video. Also you can read ‘The Great Controversy’ which will explain alot….. http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default
CLarke,
This guy is a replacement theologist, who denies natural Israel. There are many prophecies in the old testament that speaks of God’s promise to bring the Jews back to their native land in the last days. This has nothing to do with the church.
Most of the church will go through the tribulation along with the Jews, as Rev 12 indicates the earth helped the woman, natural Israel, who gave birth to the Christ Child.
This means there will be support for natural Israel from Christians during the tribulation, since it is obvious that the Muslims and atheists will not be inclined to do this.
He is not a replacement theologist who denies Israel. He preaches what the Bible says. And it says that the Jews covenant was shut off. The gospel is now preached to the gentiles not jews. Israel is not about a little country over in the middle east. It is much more than that. It is Gods people. The 144,000 is the Remnant whether it is Jews or not. REV6 on the four horseman reveals that the oil and wine are not to be harmed. JOEL2 speaks of this oil and wine as the remnant 144,000. Yes Christians are supporting Israel..mainly because of their ignorance. I am a Christian and I do not have any problems with Jews, but Israel is not any more special than any other country. Old Testament maybe, but not now that they have rejected Jesus. It is pretty simple really if people would just read their Bibles. It is not about Jews. It is about Gods people…whether that includes Jews or not. BTW, the speaker is a SDA and I encourage everyone to watch more of his videos or look up SDA beliefs. You might be surprised at what you find.
hi Clarke
First of all, I do respect your opinion. This is a free expression site. I just do not agree with him, and I have watched him on TV.
The bible specifically says the 144 k are chosen from the tribes of Israel, and even names the tribes.
God formed an “everlasting covenant” with the Jews, so unless god changes his mind or lies, this covenant is still in place.
What Yeshua offered was a better covenant, but this did not cancel the old one.
I respect your opinion too. 🙂 I am convinced however that the Jews as a nation were cutoff when Jesus was put to death. 3.5 years later they stoned Stephen when he tried to preach the gospel to them. So now…the gospel is preached to the world (gentiles). Here’s an interesting read. http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=21804&p=3&topicID=12727310
hi Clarke.
Remember also that the Jews sinned against God in the OT repeatedly, they got “cut off” repeatedly, and then forgiven repeatedly, and taken back. This is a picture of ALL of us.
God promised to regather the Jews in the end times, and to bring them back to the land of Israel. He will deal with their hearts, and they will not be as before.
God is a God of restoration and forgiveness. At the battle of Armageddon, Jesus is personally returning to save Israel, not Christians. He will be giving them one more chance to see who he is. He wants them saved too.
When this happens, according to Zechariah 12, all Israel will look upon him whom they have pierced, and they will weep with understanding. All Israel will be saved.
“For ye are ‘all’ the children of God by ‘faith’ in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are yea Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:26-29
Israel has always referred to those who accepted Christ. and Jews are not accepting, so how can they be the protected ones?
Yes, some Jews will convert, whether now, or later. But not all. Not all will be saved. Israel being saved means Gods chosen ones. Not a literal nation or nationality. Israel being Gods people all over the world, whether they were Jew, Gentile, Muslim, etc doesnt matter as long as they accept Him.
When Jesus comes again, it will not be to save one nation, it will be to take us (Israel) home.
Here’s another good video that everyone should watch. Should help clear up some of this.
part one.
Here is a series of studies on the characteristics of the twelve tribes of the 144000 which are actually modern day Israel – http://imssdarm.wordpress.com/category/the-twelve-tribes/
hi imssdarm
thank you for the information. I will look at it, and I hope others do also.
Shalom from Jerusalem,
I enjoyed the info you presented. Let me say, the Lord will bring His elect into the wilderness of Sinai. The earth will devour those from AC who would destroy them. I am here for the elect in Israel.
Also, there is a timeframe for the end of days in Psalm 119. If you are interested, go to ‘fulfilledprophecy.com, go to discussion, go to Temple Watch, go to ‘next’ page: Psalm 119: Time Frame for the end of Days. http:www.habagministry.com
In the Name,
Michael
Shalom Michael
I see your enthusiasm. But I do not see where you made your point about 119. There are just a lot of disjointed comments, about 119, your life and other scriptures as well. Nothing is tied together.
Why don’t you go through the psalm, in order of verse, and explain how each verse describes the end times.
I would enjoy reading this. thanks. 🙂
WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN AND FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, ARE WE NOT THEN IN THE NEW COVENANT AND THE NEW MAN THAT PAUL SPOKE OF IN HIS LETTER TO THE EPHESIANS, THE UNITY OF THE JEW AND GENTILE BELIEVERS, GOD ADOPTS THE GENTILE BELIEVERS AND HAS NO PREFERANCE BETWEEN JEW OR GENTILE, BUT RATHER SEES THEM AS EQUAL, WE CANNOT REPLACE OUR JEWISH BROTHERS AS THEY ARE HAVING THE SCALES LIFTED OFF THEIR EYES, THEY WERE THE FIRST BORN SO TO SPEAK, IF IT WERE NOT FOR THEM REJECTING YESHUA, WE WOULD NOT HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING ABLE TO ACCEPT YESHUA. WE MUST THEREFORE PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM, NOT JUST THE PHYSICAL JERUSALEM, BUT THE NEW JERUSALEM SO WE CAN BE BLESSED, NOT ONLY PHYSICALLY BUT SPIRITUALLY. may the jewish/gentile New Man rise up to usher in the return of Yeshua. has anyone seen “Daniels Timeline”, if not please watch it
hi Liz
very good thoughts. may we all be one.
Priceless stuff…really funny.
now I ask you do you need to be declared legaly insnae to profess a belief in this ‘stuff’ or can you just go crazy one day & swallow it hook line & sinker?
Anyway this stuff is priceless…couldn’t make it up if I wanted to.
Well, at least you look at the humor in life.
Peace.
The 144,000 are not all Jews. 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah = the Jews. Not defiled with woman = they are not corrupted by false doctrine. where does the scriptures teach that being married is a sin? The scriptures say the institution of marriage is honorable and he who finds a wife finds favor, and the marriage bed is UNDEFILED. Furthermore its called Jacobs trouble, NOT Judah’s trouble, if you are a believer you are a citizen of Israel ephesians 2:12, grafted into Israel Jeremiah 11:16 Romans 11:17 the 144,000 shall(future) lead the assemblies Isaiah 4:5 in the greater exodus Jeremiah 14:16, they are the Deliverers on Mt Zion obadiah 1:21, Revelation 14:1 Did not ALL our father’s come out in the egyptian exodus 1 Corinthians 10:1 and were part of the Church/Kahal in the wilderness Acts 7:38, the same assembly YESHUA built upon Matthew 16:18 YHWH did not begin a new work, HE is still on Plan A. Dispensationalism corrupts and you can be sure that NONE of the 144,000 will be defiled with that heresy
hi Katriel
From the description, I just assumed that these were young boys, about 10-11 years old. Too young for marriage, but selected as God’s “choir boys” to honor him during this time.
shalom, correction, the passage for the greater exodus should have been Jeremiah 16:14
Shalom from Jerusalem,
The 144000 are the ‘whole house of Israel’ mentioned in Ez. 39. This is the Remnant of Israel. It IS ALL ISRAEL, for ‘only the rmemnant will be saved. Now is this number ‘exact’? Probably not. BUt the point of the number is to indicate that ‘only a rmenant will be saved.’
Michael
Shalom Michael
Since it is already promised that “all Israel shall be saved,” this makes sense that the 144,000 is more symbolic than literal. However, from all Israel, this small group may have a special function during Jabcob’s trouble. They are the first fruits of God’s harvest, meaning the rest of the harvest is coming also. God will get all his people back. 🙂
Shalom Michael…If you are looking for Servant89 (talking donkey) from Biblebase forums, I am that person. I heard someone here wanted to talk to me. Call me: I sent you an email with my phone # … or email me, it is ok to email me. What’s on your mind?
Servant89 Shalom
Ariel
Michael gave his email address above. You can contact him directly.
Remember that a woman in prophecy refers to a church and modern Israel is the Christian church. So these may be Christians who have not been defiled by false churches or religions. They will probably come from the true church, which today would be Christian by default. They are to be God’s new disciples in the millennium. Twelve simply won’t be enough this time. And just as Jesus had Mary Magdalene I’m sure there will be women in this group as well.
One thing they will NOT be is Jewish, seeing as they will follow the lamb (Jesus).
As for the listing of the tribes, I think it is purely symbolical. I believe it may be explained by listing the meanings of the Hebrew names in the order given – which is curiously not in the proper birth order.
Marianne should check that out.
IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST WE HAVE A VICTORY..
GOD BLESS YOU …
James;
I was taught the woman is:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Revelation-chapter-12.html
http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachings.asp?book=revelation
http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachingsplay.asp?teaching=NV5015
Question: “What does Revelation chapter 12 mean?”
Answer: In Revelation chapter 12, the woman is described as “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children (Genesis 37:9-11). The stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.
Additional evidence is that in Revelation 12:2-5, the passage speaks of the woman being with child and giving birth. While it is true that Mary gave birth to Jesus, it is also true that Jesus, the son of David from the tribe of Judah, came from Israel. In a real sense, Israel gave birth—or brought forth—Christ Jesus. Further evidence for this is in 12:5 where the Scripture says that the woman “gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.” Clearly, this is describing Jesus. Jesus will one day establish His kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:4-6), and He will rule it. This verse also makes reference to Jesus’ ascension to heaven 40 days after His resurrection (Acts 1:9-11), speaking of the son “being caught up to God and to His throne.”
When it speaks of the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days, it is referring to the future time called the tribulation period. Twelve hundred sixty days is 42 months of 30 days each. 42 months is 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the tribulation period, the beast will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This is the picture of the woman fleeing into the wilderness.
Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also speaks of how God will protect Israel while in the wilderness. This wilderness place where Israel will flee is believed to be a place called Petra. Note Revelation 12:14 where it says that Israel will be protected from the devil for “a time, times, and half a time (a time = 1 year — 3 1/2 years).
The above link has changed to http://sabbathsermons.com/category/the-twelve-tribes-of-the-144000/
Marianne;
Are you aware Sabbath Sermons are Seventh Day Adventist? I know you are friends with them,but they don’t believe in the rapture and they believe in replacement theology of the Jews.
http://en.wordpress.com/tag/seventh-day-adventist/
I did a little web searching after I ran across THIS Seventh Day Adventist web blog 2 years ago:
They are anti-evangelical
Anti-Israel
Anti-Rapture
Anti-Caholic
http://joeland7.wordpress.com/
This guy has over 300 pages of posts
Regarding adventists, there are points I agree with and points I do not agree with.
I only moderate what is said on my site, and not elsewhere.
If I were Jewish I’d move to Israel and show all you Gentiles who we are. And then I would build our Temple to make another statement. We’re here to stay and we’re not going anywhere. But, I’m not Jewish.
You quote the following verse:
You shall count for yourselves — from the day after the Shabbat, from the day when you bring the Omer of the waving — seven Shabbats, they shall be complete. Until the day after the seventh sabbath you shall count, fifty days… You shall convoke on this very day — there shall be a holy convocation for yourselves — you shall do no laborious work; it is an eternal decree in your dwelling places for your generations. -Leviticus 21:15-16, 21
It’s Leviticus 23:15-16,21
bullshits
I’ve been taught and believe the 144,000 will be young men only, that are not defiled with women – virgins, like these young men singing in this video.
Good study and balanced. I feel we are entering the time very close to the nations going against Israel according to Ezekiel 38. The church will be raptured and the 144,000 will arise. God knows who they are and will not forget His people. Selah~
hi graceflyer
I agree. With the UN planning to divide up Israel, giving more land to the arabs in September, it looks imminent.
Your article is interesting. I take the Bible literally, and believe when it says that the 144,000 will be male and Jewish. I’ve wondered if they could be very young, such as teenagers at the beginning of the Tribulation, in some special school or religious training at the time? It seems pretty special in todays world to find that many men who are virgins, unfortunately. Do you believe that Israel will have all returned at the time the males are sealed, already back to Temple worship, and possibly be a superpower? Hopefully it all happens soon, and not decades from now, or even longer.
hi Vi
it is very typical that young orthodox Jewish boys would be virgins.
They are young teenagers, most likely in a yeshiva school (bible school for boys in Israel after their bar mitzvah ( 13, years and older)
I certainly hope all the Jews get back there in time. Even though they will face great danger, it is the safest place on the earth for them. Israel will not be a superpower until Messiah comes.
The changes could start as early as this fall or next year, from the way things look. We have to wait and see.
THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12.
THE CHURCH OR ISRAEL?
There are those that believe and are of the opinion, that the woman of Revelation 12 is referring to that of the Church.
Perhaps this is the consequence of 1800 plus years of supersessionism, otherwise known as replacement theology.
This is the result of the church in its arrogance, not taking into account that God, having made a previous covenant with Israel, will also ultimately fulfill that covenant. God the Father is still and will always be Israel’s Husband. (Isaiah 54:5)
There is nothing within the context of scripture here, that would indicate that this woman of Rev. 12 is the church, therefore it must then be understood as being an incorrect assumption. However, there are passages that would support the opinion that this woman is instead Israel. Genesis 37:9,10. where Joseph was rebuked by Jacob (Israel) after explaining the dream that he had had, would be one for example.
“And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed ? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?”
Above we see that Jacob, (who’s name was changed to Israel by God in Genesis 32:28), understands beyond a question of a doubt, who the symbols of the “sun and the moon, and the eleven stars” represents. Therefore it would stand to reason that this inspired realization be brought forward, and that its representation is to still remain applicable to any further mention of these particular symbols. With the inclusion of Joseph within what are now “the 12 stars” in Revelation 12, this woman would then be representative of the complete fullness of Israel.
I would pose the question to those that possess the belief that Rev. 12 is referring to the Church, “Who is the man child then?”
Provide to me any scripture that prophesises anything regarding the Church giving birth to a man child that will be caught up to heaven, leaving the Church to seek refuge within the wilderness.” And if you also happen to be of the belief that the man child is Yeshua, “How could the Church birth its Creator and King before it had ever existed?” Sort of a like the chicken before the egg scenario huh? That is simply not logically possible. Yeshua was born, lived and died before the Church itself even came into existence. It was not the other way around.
THE MAN CHILD…… YESHUA OR THE 144,000?
There is more evidence within scripture to suggest that this “man child” is the 144,000 than that of Yeshua as well.
The story of Hannah in 1 Samuel, could very well be utilized as a foreshadowing of this event. Within that story, she would be representative of Israel, and Samuel in turn would be representative of the 144,000.
Nonetheless, if I were to be say an author of a novel, and I wished for you as the reader to understand a particular time frame in which my story happened to take place, I would probably relay that information to you relatively early within the first couple of chapters. The book of Revelation does the same thing.
To start with, the title of the book itself contains a certain amount of specificity regarding that on its own. The English word “revelation” is derived from the Greek, “ἀποκάλυψις”, transliterated “apokalypsis” (Strong’s 602) its definitions consist of, “Laying bare, making something naked. A disclosure of truth, or instruction concerning things before unknown. Used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto, (or until this time) have been withdrawn from view are made visible to all. A manifestation, or appearance.”
This would then mean, that all of this following information has been until now, “hidden and unknown”.
John states in Revelation 1:1. that this is, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must “shortly come to pass”; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” KJV.
The term translated above as “shortly come to pass” can only be understood within its correct context, as to be referring to to the future, rather than having any historical significance whatsoever.
Furthermore, this is supported as well by what is stated in verse 3. “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this “prophecy”, and keep those things which are written therein: “for the time is at hand”. KJV.
The English word “prophecy” is derived from the transliterated Greek, “prophēteia” (Strong’s 4394). The primary definition of prophecy is, “a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by “foretelling future events”.”
The term translated into “for the time is at hand” would again indicate that all of the following information is describing events of the future. (And prophecy isn’t prophecy if the information is already known.)
In verse 19 Yeshua says to John, “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;” KJV.
Yeshua tells John to write the things which he has seen. This he evidently does by writing within the next verse Yeshua’s explanation as to what he had just seen regarding the vision of the seven stars and the seven golden candlesticks.
Yeshua then informs John to write “the things that are”, within the epistles to the Churches. The “shall be hereafter” would again indicate that this is a prophecy regarding future events. The English word “hereafter” is derived from the copulation of the Greek words “ταῦτα μετά” or transliterated, “tauta meta” (Strong’s 5023 and 3326 respectively.) Combined in this manner they simply can be defined as in English as “after”.
When the epistles to the Churches were completed, John was then caught up to heaven, and the voice that he heard said to him, “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” (Rev 4:1. KJV.)
Again with the inclusion of “hereafter”, this cannot be misconstrued as meaning anything other than regarding the future from when John experienced this vision, and the revelation from Yeshua, and the angels.
So above we have been provided with “revelation” and its specific definition. “Shortly come to pass”, and “prophecy” and its specific definition. “The things that shall be hereafter” by Yeshua Himself in verse 1:19, and then “hereafter” again in 4:1.
That is five (5) instances for the reader to understand the context of time frame!
Therefore since there is nothing to indicate that anything of a historical significance will be provided within the following discourse, and that it is indeed a sacred prophecy provided by God to Yeshua to reveal what has previously been hidden to His followers, then the wording translated as “man child”, (within the KJV.) in Revelation 12:5 cannot be that of Yeshua.
Many appear to simply jump to conclusions based upon the terminology that has been translated into the English, “rule all nations with a rod of iron”, and make the assumption that it is Yeshua. (Though to actually do that, it would be contradicting the five (5) previously stipulated points that were provided for the reader to understand the context of time frame.) What many fail to recognize is that this same terminology is not only applicable to Yeshua as expressed in Psalms 2:9., and Revelation 19:15., but is also expressed as being the reward to the overcomers in the epistle to the Church of Thyatira in Rev. 2:26,27. as well.
So the phrase to “rule all nations with a rod of iron” is not definitive enough to utilize as a conclusive justification as to only be referring to one specific entity. Rather, the phrase itself encompasses all who will be chosen to rule and reign with Him within His Millennial Kingdom.
Revelation 12 states that this woman is “with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.” (Rev.12:2.)
In Isaiah 66:7-13., God, in speaking of end times, uses more or less the same terminology in referring to the remnant which would very well consist of the 144,000.
”7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a “man child”.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”
Revelation 12:5 also states that this “man child was caught up to God and His throne”. If one was to thoroughly investigate Revelation 14, I believe that they would see a description of this being “caught up” included within verse 2.
The chapter itself starts off with Yeshua standing on the earth, on Mount Zion, with the 144,000. Then John describes an event that starts with hearing a Voice from heaven.
”And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:”
Now instead of the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion with Yeshua, they are all collectively singing a new song, before the throne, before the four beast, and before the elders. They have been translated from the earth to heaven.
To reiterate, the church did not give birth to its Lord and Savior. It was clearly the other way around. Therefore Revelation 12 must be referring to the woman as being that of Israel. As well, because of the five stipulated points that are provided to the reader to understand that this book is revealing future events, the “man child” can not be Yeshua. There is far more scriptural evidence to then suggest that this terminology “man child” is instead referring to the 144,000. The first fruits of a special group chosen specifically by God for His good purpose.
Just my thoughts.
Be Blessed
Syalom dilihat dari kacamata peristiwa adalah demikian,namun dari kacamata kebenaran,Tuhan telah ungkapkan pada tahun 1969,bahwa ke 144.000 dalam wahyu 7 adalah pilihan kusus para gadis yang sama seperti Maria yang kelak akan melahirkan anak-anaknya yaitu dalam wagyu 12:1-2.dan hasil kelahiran itu adalah anak-anak berjumlah 144.000 dalam wahyu 14 yang telah menjadi taruna,ketika 144.000 (Wahyu 7)dipilih akhir meterai ke IV dan pada meterai V mereka mengandung oleh kandungan Rohkudus sama seperti Maria(Wahyu 12:1-2)melahirkan anak laki-laki langsung dibawa ke arays Allah dilihat oleh Yohanes tunggal,tetapi dalam arti jamak yaitu ada 144.000 yang melahirkan(Wahyu 12:4-6)dan hasilnya adalah taruna-taruna yang berjumlah 144.000 dalam wahyu 14.Demikian dikatakan Yesaya ketika mereka merasakan sakit,maka sion telah melahirkan anak-anaknya.Bisakah hal itu terjadi dalam sehari,Yesaya 66:7-8.Tuhan berkati amin
dear michael’s guardian
You are asking me to explain things that do not exist.
You are decidedly anti-semitic. You continue to refer to the Quran as if it is some gold standard for scripture. You must be Islamic in thought. Islam has always twisted history and judaism to its own liking.
If you do not understand the diaspora, then read the bible for the first time.
Jews are coming in from all over the world. Their current or recent location does not deny their original heritage.
False Jews are those who should know their messiah but don’t. this is a spiritual concept, not an ethnic one.
the bible is right.
you are wrong, and so is Islam.
You also do not tell the truth.
I just checked my local university library, and there is a copy there.
http://search.lib.unc.edu/search?R=UNCb1129374
So, why should I believe any of your claims?
Have any more false claims you learned from your “we” friends?
Mirianne – Thank you, I know about that one. It’s not complete. At the time I did the search this was the ONLY Library I could find that had copies and they did not have all the volumes. I have to ask why it’s being submitted in pieces???
Secondly, I am not anti-Semitic. I am anti lies. I posted the Bible verses and you STILL refuse to answer questions. You don’t have to believe my claims. You either believe Scripture or you don’t. Semites are the ones being descriminated against in Israel. The war between Israel and the Arab nations is a set up . . .planned. A long time ago.
The liars my dear, are pointed out in the Bible. The Muslims did not exist back then. The twisters of history and the “father of lies” is expressed by Jesus in John. I posted that in another entry.
Who are the false Jews in Revelation 2:9 Mariam? Why do you not answer the question? This is SCRIPTURE. Who are the false Jews in Revelation 3:8-9? Why do you not answer THAT question?
The “star of Moloch” mentioned in Amos 5:26 and Acts 7:43 ? The star? You know, the one on the Israeli Flag? That is not of God and it is not the Star of David. It is the Star of Solomon.
Now if telling the truth AND backing it up in scripture – THE BIBLE (not the Qu’ran as you accuse, and completely skew what I said) if telling the truth through God’s Word makes me anti Semitic, then I guess you have just proved who our “accuser before God” is, where they come from, and what you’re about.
Have a nice day.
A little education:
“Semite, Person speaking one of a group of related languages, presumably derived from a common language, Semitic (see Semitic languages). The term came to include Arabs, Akkadians, Canaanites, some Ethiopians, and Aramaean tribes including Hebrews. Semitic tribes migrated from the Arabian Peninsula, beginning c. 2500 bc, to the Mediterranean coast, Mesopotamia, and the Nile River delta. In Phoenicia, they became seafarers. In Mesopotamia, they blended with the civilization of Sumer. The Hebrews settled at last with other Semites in Palestine.”
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/534157/Semite
So I guess this makes YOU anti-Semitic too.
when I expose your false claim, you change your story.
you have never read the talmud.
any holy text is accompanied by commentaries
I already answered your question about the false jews.
your comment about the star is another example of brainwashing with false information.
I suggest you read the bible, and stop trying to present false interpretations of what is really there.
you demonstrate no understanding of scripture. you just throw out stuff and show you cannot interpret the text.
No you did not answer any question about the false Jews. You accuse me of not having understanding when it is YOU trying to misappropriate the information. I proved every time with scripture POSTED of what I said. I proved you wrong about your claim in Romans 1:11 and now you’r pissed and throwing out accusations.
YOU are a false teacher. You are PURPOSELY misquoting the Bible – I posted proof. You ignore it and accuse me.
– I posted PROOF by posting the scripture itself so where did I misinterpret?
– I have read the whole Bible cover to cover numerous times, make notes, compared it to history.
Several on here also have stated the very same thing about you so I am not alone.
How many people are you going to take to hell with you?
This is your blog so I will leave you to it. People see through your lies and you and I both know God will be the judge – the TRUE God of Abraham, Isaac and JESUS CHRIST. Our accusers will be called forth on the day of Judgment.
Michael Jackson? Is that the Michael you are talking about? He’s not Muslim . . . another lie. But that truth will come to light too.
We don’t have much time left anyway, so my prayer is that God will reach your heart with the truth. The “strong delusion” mentioned is 2 Thessalonians 2 should be your next area of study.
Love,
Bonnie
The false Jews was people who called them selfs Jews but didn´t follow all the laws. And yes MJ was a muslim so now he is burning in hell.
Michael Jackson is burning nowhere!! Get back to basics and learn about the love, mercy and justice of God, before you spurt out this judgmental vitriol… and let God be the judge of the heart of a man!
Shame on you!
Were you with Michael in the momments of his death? How do you know that YHWH condemned him? Are you all knowing like YHWH? What about 2peter 3:9. Do you know for a fact that YHWH did not deal with Michael in the momments of death? No one is thrown into the lake of fire until death and hades is thrown into the lake of fire. No where in the bible does it say all Muslims will burn in hell. There are Muslims that have excepted Yahushua.
All muslims will burn in hell when they die. Jesus says when Jesus returns he will fire up all that Satan has planted and Islam is Satans thing.
Adamant Adam ‘ad ’em all in Hell. We’ll, one day the Lord may just touch your heart and lead you to the truth about this place called Hell,
and many others on this website; but with such a vindictive and judgmental disposition, you may well find yourself perishing alongside the multitudes you consign to eternal torment. Rom 6:23.
And by the way, let’s have no pontificating etymological analysis of the word. Take it the way God intended; and that is: to “cease to exist” .
Be blessed and see the light.
I saw the light when i became Christian. Have you read psalm 110? It says when Jesus holds the doom there will be dead bodys everywhere. Have you read Ezekiel 38 & 39 it talks about muslims countries attacking Israel and they die. Ican continue but that´s enough for me. God will kill the muslims. Read Jeseja 17 my favourite, God will shake the city in a eartquake and all will die. Richard you don´t have any idea about who God is. God is mad in the end time and now we are living in the end time. Remember what God did last time he was real mad (Noa). It´s the end for muslims and then they will burn in hell. That´s what they deserve when they are following a faith that is copied and modified from us.
Adam,
What does righteous judgement have to do with eternal torment?
” For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord”…Rom 6:23
Do you have a problem with the above verse? Read carefully!
It’s the END for anyone who does not accept Jesus, but accepting Jesus should lead to a heart condition of love and not condemnation, which you appear to be predisposed to because you do not as yet appear to understand the judicial nature of God, which is merciful and does not inflict evil on anyone. God tries no one with evil, but make no mistake, when He exercises judgement, it could be painful while it lasts!
Does that make you happy? 🙂
Get to know your Heavenly Father intimately, then you will begin to understand His nature! God most certainly is mad in these times, particularly with those who misrepresent Him!
Blessings.
R
Revelation says that those who receive the mark of the beast will be tormented forever. If we continued with the book which I do not think we do it talks about the Christians who have taken the mark of the beast to buy and sell. Muslims do not accept Jesus as the Son of God which is by the Anti Christ and they are not baptized, so they are not entitled to eternal life and I believe that Islam has to do with Satan and everything to do with Satan will go to hell. Blessings to Christians and some Jews, but not to you Gentiles ie Protestants.
michaels guardian
By the way, michael is dead, and gone, and not in heaven. He was muslim, and not saved.
The only relationship Muslims have with Jews is their mutual ancestor was Abraham. Ishmael and his mother got kicked out of the home when they showed disrespect for Sarah. Ishmaelites have never changed in their attitudes.
You are brainwashed with a corrupt history, and are not open to the truth.
I cannot help you understand the bible and bible history, unless you allow the holy spirit to work in you.
Logic dictates that anyone from Abraham is “hebrew” which includes the jews.
the whore of babylon is a false religious system.. there are many members. the pagan religion started in babylon, which is arabic, not jewish or hebrew, and it continues today with multiple religions participating.
LOL! I posted Bible verses. I don’t need your help in understanding. This has nothing to do with Michael. You are a liar. You can’t back up your accusations. Go look up the history of the Talmud sweetheart. When was it first put in written form?
You got it. During the
Babylonian Captivity as YOU SAID YOURSELF in one of your first replies.
You have NOT been able to answer my questions. Jesus had the same problems with people like you. The Whore of Babylon and “Mystery” Babylon is the Babylonian Talmud. The “star” on the Israeli flag is the Pagan star of Moloch . . . Solomon’s Seal.
Who are the false Jews in Revelation 2:9, Marianne? Answer my questions. This is strait from scripture.
Who is the star of Moloch and who followed it in Amos and Acts?
I am “brainwashed” with the Bible. Not the Satanic Talmud.
God help you.
I have already told you who the false jews are..several times….go back and read what I wrote.
there is nothing satanic about the talmud. Just because it was written during the babylonian captivity does not mean it is satanic. the talmud is about jewish scriptures, not pagan practices.
you have obviously never read it.
david’s star is not Moloch star…there is no connection..
you are not brainwashed with bible, or you would not say the things you do. you give verses that are inappropriate for the claims you make.
just because there was a moloch does not mean there is a connection to the modern state of Israel, …..the star of david is a positive sign, not a negative one.
michealsguardian,
You seem to know a lot about the “deep things of Satan”, use a vile word, speak aggressively, deride the host of this website and masquerade under a trite pseudonym, and it all started over a worldly popstar. So why are you here? This is a Christian website, not a platform to propagate worldly conspiracies even if they should contain a shred of truth. Hold fast to what is fine, and stay out of the affairs of this world, lest you carry that spirit wherever you go!
Blessings.
First talmud was written about year 400. Before Satans muhammed showed up. And muhammed copied it and modified it and called it Sharia.
michealsguardian
You are one reason why God choosed a man to rule the world and nopt a woman. You remind me of Eve.
Continued from: istone said this on July 7, 2012 at 7:47 pm
That’s right Adam. God got bored so He decided to have a game of cats, mice and mousetraps, and should the starving mouse take the cheese, will get it’s head whacked at 1000 hits per second whilst being blasted with a 1000 decibel meow for every squeal it makes, for all eternity, because he deserved it! Oh yes, he sure did! God is so precise in everything…the perfect judgement! Is that enough for you Adam, or should God ramp it up a bit?
The problem is we are really talking about the exquisite and wonderous creature called homosapien, who has been endowed with feelings and emotions, and would prefer to not walk around with it’s head between it’s legs, but I suppose if he decides that he looks better with it on the end of his neck, then their is no reason why his heavenly Father should not send him intact to a fiery furnace for all eternity, to be roasted but never quite cooked, because according to section 4(1,2,a,b,c) of the game rules, no man can walk head first into the Kingdom. Makes sense when you don’t think about it!
Anyway, you may be interested to know about a Greek word; “eon”, which appears in many places in scripture and is translated as forever, eternity, and everlasting, but actually pertains to a finite or specific time period. A very important study (despite what I said about etymological analysis, make an exception here).
Be blessed in our merciful Heavenly Father Yahweh and his sacrificial lamb, and our saviour, Jesus.
that comment was good enough to lose everyone who read it. !!!
Some who understand God’s mercy may get the gist of it 🙂
Hi Marianne
I truly appreciate your wonderful spiritual insights as well as your spiritual understanding and knowledge. Its really great. However, when it comes to the mention of the 144,000 in the Book of Revelations, I believe this is where most Christians may fail to see just who these men really are, because all Christians it seems always see is the Church, when these passages are plainly speaking of Israel.
In fact, a good case can be made that the Church of God is not the subject of Revelations, but Israel is this great prophecy’s subject.
To be consistent with the rest of Scripture, these Israelite men would have to be the heads of families. And not only does the apostle John hear the number, but we are told they are from the 12 tribes of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah, the ones in Israel today.
Isaiah chapters 37-49 very plainly speaks of a 2nd Exodus and the return of the Lost tribes of the house of Israel to the Land.
And I believe our Lord Himself was also speaking of physical people returning to a physical Land in His parables of “the Kingdom of heaven”.
Therefore, we are shown the 144,000 heads of households as being the firstfruits of the newborn spirits who will inherit that earthly kingdom.
These 144,000 cannot be and will not be Christians, who, we are told, are simply waiting for the Lord from heaven, Thus Christians are the “Coming ones”, not as with the tribes of Israel who are the “going ones”.
Praise Him
bro Phillip
hi edward
I agree that they are jews, but I cannot see them as heads of families if they are still virgins. Rev 14: 3-5
I Believe they are the firstborn Sons …Children of “This Generation”. Think about Joshua and Caleb, and the entry into the promised land…None, but the two witnesses (spies) entered into His Rest of that generation preceding the entry into the holy Land.
Hi Marianne
Well, I certainly agree the text does say that they are “Virgins” but I have had troubles with this conventional interpretation because nowhere else in Scripture are men ever called virgins. But its women, specially Israelite women who are almost exclusively referred to as such, the other being Israel herself, as in the title “Virgin daughter of Israel”.
The verse said that they “did not defile themselves with women, for they are virgins.”
In eschatology, Biblical symbols are tested by absurdity, and that an adult male under Levitical Law would defile himself by having intimate relations with a woman: is absurd, and therefore the verse is speaking symbolically-that is to say, allegorically, of men being “Virgins”. And the direct application of “virgin”: a maiden who had not laid with a man, are the 144,000 families of the 12 Tribes of Israel, each family headed by the husband.
We know this is the case, because from Genesis to the Gospels and the Epistles the Scriptures are consistent in that they almost exclusively address themselves to men as the head of households
And we see that men are the only ones numbered, as example, Moses only numbered the males who left Egypt, just as our Lord Himself did with His feeding of the five thousand… men.
So these men are not virgins in the conventional sense, but in the spiritually sense they did not defile themselves in idolatry, certainly they did not worship the Beast and his religion which the whole world follows after, but they followed the Lamb withersoever (where so ever) [He is, will be]going.”
The Apocalypse bears, from one end to the other, the character of a Hebrew prophecy, and the Hebrew character is shown in its use of idioms, expressions, words, phrases, which cannot be called Greek; and indeed is called by many “Bad Greek”.
All the imagery–the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the altar, the incense, the head of the twenty four courses of priests (the pattern of which David’s was a copy), all this peculiarly belong to Israel. And the Typology is of the Exodus where the children of Israel in that ancient Wilderness followed that Rock, and that Rock was Christ.
These 144,000 who were redeemed from the earth, are seen as being in another Wilderness and fleeing from the face of the Dragon, and who are made safe, for they are sealed with the Seal of the Living God.
So, no, I just don’t think that they are Christians.
edward
i respect your opinion but I think it is very straight forward. Men who are virgins who have not been with women sound like young boys, maybe about 12 years old, newly bar mitvahed
Hi Marianne
No disrespect meant but come on Marianne, 144,000 prepubesent boys?
That would make them 144,000 under age children.
There are strong reasons for believing that John’s prophecy of the 144,000 contains many figurative or spiritual concepts. First of all, in this Insight, consider Rev. 14:4: “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.” If this is understood in its literal/physical sense, then the 144,000 are all males who have never had sexual relations. Could it be that God would have a special place for virgin men, excluding all virgin women and all faithfully married Christians?
It is true that Jesus spoke of those who are celibate (“eunuchs”) “for the kingdom of heaven’s sake” (Matt. 19:11-12). Paul spoke in 1 Cor. 7 about advantages for the kingdom of being celibate. Nevertheless, both texts put limitations on this teaching, and no text outside of Revelation gives any hint of special rewards for celibates or of their being a special class of God’s people.
The general teaching of the entire Bible is that marriage is both desirable and honorable (Heb. 13:4). It is God who decided that man is better off with a woman than by himself (Gen. 2:18). It is God who declared, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife” (Gen. 2:24). Marriage is so important in the Lord’s church that bishops and deacons must be married men (1 Tim. 3:2, 12). God says that forbidding marriage, as some churches do, is demonic (1Tim. 4:1-3).
With such verses in mind, it seems more in harmony with Scripture to view the celibacy of the 144,000 as spiritual in nature.
Edward
How old was Sarah when she gave birth to Issic? Was Jesus really born of a virgin? I guess you think G-d can not flood the world too.
144,000 virgin filled with the Holy Spirit seems an easy task for G-d to me.
Honestly…..Leatherneck…I believe she was well past past her 90’s, and yes, I believe Jesus really was born of a virgin…. I don’t see your point?
What I happen to believe about the 144,000 they’s, as John called them doesn’t matter all that much. Its what God meant for us to know and understand, so to me, nothing else really matters.
Perhaps to the modern ear a male virgin might not sound like it would have to the ancients, a howling non sequitur: An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence. In other words, the concept of the virgin was due entirely to the very high regard for the pudenda, while the penis was never so governed.
Not to get too serious about it, but I believe, and must believe, that God means what He says, that He has a meaning for every word that He says, and that all of His works and all of His words are perfect, in their choice, order and place. So perfect, that, if one word or expression is used, there is a reason why no other would have done.
I believe that the Holy Spirit chose to use this non sequitur joining of the two words, “men as “vigrins” to immediately arrest our attention so that He might illuminate the way to the real context of “virgins”.
After all, Our Lord had already warned us at the very threshold of the Book “let him that has an ear, let him hear.”
And what I’m hearing in this passage is the word of God giving me something that seems absurd: the true test of any symbol in Scripture, which points to something else.
I believe its the whole 12 tribes of the 144,000 families of Israel personified as the “New man”; as represented by the 144,000 male heads of families, who are pure and Holy and undefiled in their worship of God and the Lamb.
If you have something better to represent in a reply comment I’d be happy to read it.
God bless
Edward
the 144k has always been a strange point. why save only 144k and let the rest of Israel suffer?
Well, I think the short answer is that the 144,000 are the foundational “new man” and a wholly newborn type of spirits: families of God’s soon coming Kingdom, which is called Zion: “the perfected (spiritual) condition of the Saints” of the Most High.
As our Lord so described them in His kingdom parables, they are the Bride which came out of Christendom, and though many were called, few were chosen in this special election: as Luke 10 shows us, Gentile Christians were invited as “Guests” to the wedding Supper of the Lamb and so many refused to go. Just before the wedding, the Father of the groom was so wroth that He gathered in men and women of every sort so that the wedding was fully attended.
As a kingdom of Priests, they are sometimes on earth, and sometimes, going in courses, in Heaven. And, as I pointed out in a comment before, they are a special peculiar possession of God, which He redeemed from out of the whole 12 tribes of Israel.
The old Testament prophets however, were very plain that all of the Gentile nations, all of which are ancestors of the tribes of Jacob, here in the West, will be destroyed saving only 12,000 from each tribes scattered among many countries the world over.
And as Isaiah said:
“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
For though the people of Israel be as the sands of the sea, yet a remnant shall return: the consumption (of the rest of Jacob, inferred) decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
For the Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) of [The] host (of armies of heaven) shall make a consumption, even determined in the midst of the land. ( Isaiah 10: 21-23)
hope this makes sense?
Edward
What’s not to understand Ed? You stated you did not believe the 144,000 were physical virgins, but spitiual. My point is to show why believe Sarah could have a child, or the Mother of Jesus was a virgin, if you think G-d can not ordain 144,00 real physical virgin males.
It appeared pretty clear, you did not think the Bible meant 144,000 physical virgins. I support your right to believe as you wish, but it seems to me to be a small matter to G-d to come up with 144,000 virgin males out of the Jewish population.
Have a great day,
Hi again Marianne!
Besides the point we have been debating, I am so thankful for your website because of its wonderful spiritual atmosphere of inquiry, as it has allowed me to get more insight on the scene of the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion, for this is just the picture of the 1st Exodus repeated for a 2nd time. They are standing on Mount Zion, after a long and dangerous trek through “the wilderness of the people” under the Anti-Christ, just as Moses and Aaron and the same 12 tribes of Israelites did under Pharaoh.
There’s another “Moses and Aaron”, the Two Witnesses who stand at Jerusalem and calling them all home. And just as Moses said to Pharaoh, “let my people go”, so do these two prophet say to Antichrist “let my people go!”
Once it is understood that they are not Christians, nor just Jews from the tribe of Judah, but all of the 12 tribes of Israel, then all is plain!
overlooked by most Bible teachers, the 144,000 are seen again in chapter 15 v 3 and they are singing the song of Moses, the very same song which was sung by the children of Israel when they had overcome all the treacherous obstacles and dangers in that other wilderness and finally arrived and crossed the river into the promised land and Mount Zion.
The ten tribes have been scattered to all the countries of the world after the death of Solomon 2700 years before, where they forgot who they were, but like the valley dry bones, they get back up on their feet again and onto Isaiah’s “Highway”
“And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean (defiled) shall not pass over it…and the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads.”
Just as we see the 144,000 as personified in a single man: the Greek word here is in the neuter case; Arsen, who are “caught up to God and His throne”, or identified with God, so we see them “having God’s name on their foreheads”, or showing them as being God’s own peculiar possession.
And this is why John heard such a thunderous uproar of victorious singing on Mount Zion, for it is the 144,000 families of up to a million souls triumphally singing that new song only they could sing in praises to God and to the lamb!
May Almighty God richly bless your precious work sister.
Edward
hi edward
I just take the literal meaning first, if it seems to fit, but maybe it is actually allegorical, like you said. that is why I post my thoughts, so others can respond and add their views. together, we arrive at more truth than if we go it alone.
thank you for your kind words about the site. everyone who comes here is a blessing to me.
Hi,
It seems that you have a number of people responding to this post with different theories so I decided to throw in my two cents…
My background- came out of mainstream churches that supported the state of Israel. Now finding out the truth through the Word taught by the Father Yah.
1. The descendants of the ancient Israelites may not have been gathered back to the land yet. According to Ezekiel 28:25,26
“…when I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
And they shall dwell safely therein and shall build houses and plant vineyards; yes, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgements upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the Master their Eloha.”
Comment: The people living there now are not living in safety. Yah also has not been sanctified in them as evidenced that Tel Aviv has been made the homosexual capital of the Middle East just as an example. Also, Yah has not executed judgement on their enemies but they rely on the g-d of military “forces” to exist in the land. They are there for a reason but according to the prophecies they are not the descendants of the ancient Israelites.
————————————————————————————
2. The true gathering will take place when the Messiah’s sign appears during the last days (these days in which we live!)
According to Isaiah 11:11 states,
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Master shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Comment: These places BTW are all places that the u.s. has conflict with today. Assyria & Shinar = Iraq, Elam=Iran, Hamath=Syria, Cush=an assortment of African nations
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3. A theory about the true identity of the ancient Israelites will shock most people living in the U.S. However, if you look at Zephaniah 3:10 you’ll get a clearer picture of who the descendants of these people are in modern times
…”From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia, shall my suppliants the children of my dispersed people bring me an offering.”
Comment: Beyond the rivers of Ethiopia extends to West Africa where the center of the New World slave trade took place. The descendants of the Hebrews are the descendants of those slaves scattered to the four corners of the earth. ——————————————————————————————-
4. The ancient Israelites were in covenant with the Most High and were given warnings about “blessings and curses” if the covenant was not kept Deuteronomy 29:1. We know that the covenant was not kept and the curses were activated. In Luke 21:24 stated that Israel would be led away captive into all nations and that happened through the practice of slavery. All the curses in Deuteronomy 28 including the one in verse 32 came to pass during the time of Black slavery..
“Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.”
verse 68 goes on to state, “AND YAH SHALL BRING YOU INTO EGYPT AGAIN WITH SHIPS BY THE WAY WHEREOF I SPOKE UNTO YOU, YOU SHALL SEE IT NO MORE AGAIN AND THERE YOU SHALL BE SOLD UNTO YOUR ENEMIES FOR BONDMEN (slaves) AND BONDWOMEN (slaves)..”
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5. The people we know as Jews do not have that history as predicted by the prophets. They are prospering leaders in this world system run by satan including the media, banking, hollywood movies and t.v.
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6. The people in Israel now are a mixture of the sons of japheth (living in the tents of shem) and some edomite sons of shem.
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7. What we saw in 1948 was a division of the land by the Britain (former Roman colony) that lines up with the prophecy in Daniel that stated that the land would be divided for gain. A portion of the land was given to the Rothchild controlled nation of Israel. This is not the promise of Yah to Abraham for the land from the “Nile to the Euphrates.”
8. The so called Ethiopian Jews rightly claim to be of the tribe of Dan. When they moved to Israel, they had to adopt Judaism which is a corrupted version of the original Torah given by Yah to Moses. It is corrupted in the sense that Babylonian elements were introduced into their rituals and doctrines through the Talmud. The Ethiopian Jews were previously called Falasha in Ethiopia and had no knowledge of pagan Judaism customs brought in by the rabbis. They adopted adolatry instead of remaining spiritual virgins like the 144K have to be. This may be the reason why the tribe of Dan is not listed in the count for the 144K sealed.
9. The mystery will be fully revealed at the Messiah Yahushua’s return when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled as Luke 21:24.
Shalom.
BTW- more info can be found about Black Hebrew Israelites at http://hebrewisraelites.org. I also have some info on the blog I write for at yahushuareturns.wordpress.com.
dear katrina
There are Ethiopian Jews, because I have met some of them. But not everyone in Ethiopia or Africa is Jewish.
The African Negro race is different from the Jewish race, and they have different features and cultures. They also have different religions.
The Ethiopian Jews practice Judaism.
The ancient traditional indiginous religion of africa is varied and spiritualistic. Voodoo is one form.
Just because the african negro was exploited for slavery, does not mean it involved the ethiopian jews. Slaves were sold off the west coast of africa, not the east coast.
The african negro has no history of the practice of Judaism, and is a distinct group from the Ethiopian jews. They are different cultures.
Apparently, when the jews escaped Israel during ancient invasions, some of them migrated to Ethopia, and as usual, they assimilated into the population and intermarried there. however, they kept their faith and the practice of it.
Always, jews are known for their faith. So no matter what color they are , they are still jews. And if a group do not practice Judaism, they are not Jewish.
My point is that “Jews” those practicing Judaism are not the descendants of the ancient Israelites. There are different features obviously between the Ashkenazi Jews and the Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopian Jews = tribe of Dan. They forsook practicing true Torah to practice Babylonian rabbinic Judaism in order to live in the land of Israel run by Ashkenazi Jews. Most not all Ashkenazi Jews = Khazars that started following a religion known as Judaism in the 8th century. The occultic hexagram symbol on the Israeli flag is a glaring sign of who is there.
Also, slave traffickers did their best to hide the identity of the american negro by changing their names and separating them from their families. However, there is at least one account of a slave born in 1745 that came to america when he as 11 years old. He was still old enough to remember his given name which was Olaudah Equiano, and he eventually wrote about his experiences.
He said:
“Like the Israelites in their primitive state, our government was conducted by our chiefs or Judges, our wisemen, and elders; and the head of a family, with, enjoyed a similar authority over his household with that which is ascribed to Abraham and the other patriarchs. The law of retaliation prevailed almost universally with us as with them; and even their religion appeared to have shed upon us a ray of its glory, though broken and spent in its passage. or eclipse by the cloud with which time , tradition, and ignorance might have enveloped it. For we had our circumcision ( a rite I believe, peculiar to that people) we had also our sacrifices and burnt-offerings, our washing and purification, on the same occasions as they had”.
Even his name “Olaudah” has the ending -ah as ancient Israelites typically named their children with the root of Yah’s name. Example- Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.
And yes, some Africans practiced voodoo and other false religious practices which stemmed from the mother of all religions Nimrod’s Mystery Babylon. When the Israelites adopted any religious practices of the people of the lands that surrounded them whether Canaanite, Egyptian, Cushite, Assyrian etc. they further incurred Yah’s wrath and the elements of the curse.
Marianne, this is one reason why it doesn’t pay for anyone to be racist. When the Messiah returns, many people may get the shock of their lives 🙂
katrina
this is all theory and fantasy, although I can see the psychology behind the american blacks wanting to identify with another group that experienced slavery.
The negro is a descedent of Ham, not Shem. Therefore he is not part of ancient Israel, unless he, on an individual basis, was married into a Jewish family at some point in his ancestral history.
The attack on the Ashkenazi Jews = Khazars is a plan of satan to discredit those who practice Judaism. Whether convert or not, they are still jews to god, they have given their lives for their faith in the holocaust, and makes them more believers than anyone else, and more sincere than those that attack them. remember, even Ruth the ancestor of Jesus, was a convert. the whole mass conspiracy to become Jews to achieve some evil purpose is a sham.
the modern shepardic Jews, Israelis, who never left the region are not black.
the alleged quote from the 11 year old does not reveal jewish origins, only that hi tribe was similar to jews, not that they were jews. I believe that quote is a fake, because in 1745, no one took quotes from their slaves and recorded them.
Olaudah is not a jewish name….the ending is wrong….it ends in Dah…..not Yah…..and even if it did, it does not mean anything
also, there is no evidence, zero, that any negro brought to america ever practiced judaism or even knew what it was.
Sometimes I think the american black is lost as a group. It is trying to find an identity that will make it feel elevated, and find a reason for its past slavery. It is a current fantasy that they must have been Jewish.
Unfortunately, slavery has been burden of many people groups, not just blacks. the reason behind slavery is just evil, and there is no way to be elevated except through deliverance from it.
Blacks were sold into slavery by Muslim traders and their own people.
Jews have been scattered to the 4 corners of the earth, negros have not.
Negroes will have to find their own identity in their past struggles. But ancient Israelites they are not. They lack the DNA, heritage, and religious history. Arabs are also descendents of Shem. Look at them, they are not Negroes.
Ethiopian Jews are a result of intermarriage, or conversion, they are not the original Israelites. If they were, they would be the same skin color as the shephadic jews and arabs.
marianne,
There has been a lot of racial mixing between the Arabs and Europeans that is why you have some bedoins in the desert with very dark skin and fair skin Arabs that are portrayed to us on t.v. The mix came with Greco-Roman colonialism. Ancient Egyptians were also dark skinned people as documented by even European writers.
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Gerald Massey, English writer and author of the book, Egypt the Light of the World, wrote, “The dignity is so ancient that the insignia of the Pharaoh evidently belonged to the time when Egyptians wore nothing but the girdle of the Negro.” (p 251)
Sir Richard Francis Burton, a 19th century English explorer, writer and linguist in 1883 wrote to Gerald Massey, “You are quite right about the “AFRICAN” origin of the Egyptians. I have 100 human skulls to prove it.”
The Ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who visited Egypt in the 5th century B.C.E., saw the Egyptians face to face and described them as black-skinned with woolly hair.
Anthropologist, Count Constatin de Volney (1727-1820),spoke about the race of the Egyptians that produced the Pharaohs. He later paid tribute to Herodotus’ discovery when he said:
The ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of it’s original color, while retaining none the less the imprint of it’s original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face (referring to The Sphinx) is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest to or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of the people.”
The fact that the ancient Egyptians were black-skin prompted Volney to make the following statement:
“What a subject for meditation, just think that the race of black men today our slaves and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, science and even the use of our speech.”
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The ancient Israelites ran into Africa to hide and blend in because they looked similar to people of the land. For instance, when the Muslim / Ishmaelite slave traders sold Joseph into slavery his brothers did not recognize him because he blended in with the dark skinned Egyptians of his day. That is why Yah sent Joseph and Mary into Egypt with young Yahushua because they would look just like all the other families as they hid from Herod. In Acts 21:38, Paul was mistaken for an Egyptian.
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Just as Ishmaelite slave traders sold the ancient Israelite into slavery in Egypt, Muslim Ishmaelites played a role in kidnapping the sons of Jacob who had fled into Africa making settlements from East Africa Ethiopia to Ghana. The U.S. even adopted the Egyptian philosophy as evidenced by the symbols of the pyramid on the back of the currency. It was easy for the African tribes to sell these people into slavery because like the Ethiopian Hebrews they were Falasha or “strangers” living among them.
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This is no attack on Ashkenazi Jews but stating historical and biblical facts. The prophecies do not point to ancient Israelites coming in masse out of Europe but from countries in and around Africa. Zephaniah 3:10 says they will come from BEYOND the rivers of Ethiopia. Jews as they are called were not driven into the four corners and taken as slaves in ships as the prophecies states in Deutoronomy 28:68.
The arabs know that the sephardic jews were in the land previously because they were there as edomites children of Esau. Herod of Idumea was installed by Rome as king but he was not israelite but edomite.
egyptian are decendents of Ham, not shem.
negros are not israelites
jews will come out of more than africa……they will come mostly out of the land of the north… you have singled out only one prophecy….
And not to beat a dead horse, but I just saw the comment from Michaelsguardian. Although his manner is rather confrontational, he is right that the Babylonian Talmud.
All man-made religions have some truths, but they are mixed with the Babylonian mystery religion started by Nimrod. BTW Nimrod was really a Hametic Cushite and the religion started by his wife Semirammis is practiced in most religions worldwide. Even Christianity has elements of this with its emphasis on the mother and child (not Miriam and Yahushua but Semirammis and Tammuz) along with pagan, fertility holidays like E-sther. any rebellion from Yah’s original commands constitutes rebellion. Kabala mysticism is also associated with this original religion.
These passages taken from the talmud shows the difference between those following Judaism and Torah observant Hebrew followers of Yah…
1. Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): “My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament).”.
The Torah was given by Yah, but the Talmud is oral teachings of rabbis.
Exodus 24:12 And YAH said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
2. Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
3. Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.
4. Baba Kamma 37b. “If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment is to be in full.”
Canaanites btw are sons of Ham but they are not Cushite just saying as some would like to place the Noah curse upon all Hams children.
5. Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
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Either I have misinterpreted the context of these passages, or they do not follow the Torah laws to 1. love your Eloha with all your heart,mind, and strength and 2. to love your neighbor as yourself. Please let me know if these passages are not a part of their beliefs (I truly hope they aren’t) because admittedly I am not practicing Judaism, observing the babylonian talmud, or involved in kabbala.
I am learning to follow spirit inspired scripture only and not the teachings of man. When one comes out of the Babylonian religion (rebellion evident in ALL man made religions), the truth starts to shine through as spoken by the prophets.
BTW – This is no fantasy. I really believed that the Jews in Israel mainly Ashkenazi Jews were the descendants of the ancient Israelites for a LONG time. It was actually some believers of European descent that pointed me to a book called the 13th Tribe about the Khazars. Many people already knew the truth. When I prayed for wisdom, I knew the prophecies told a different story about the plight of the ancient Israelites.
your talmud quotes are from a false source…..go to a real synogogue and read the talmud for yourself.
negroes are descendents of ham,,,,,not shem..
.Israelites are decendents of shem
Like all of these muddled man-made religions, your statements are only half truths. I’ve learned that absolute truth is found only in Yah’s word and not in the synagogues or the churches who are supporting these politically based Mid-East agendas.
katrina
my point was that if you actually read the talmud for yourself, you would see this posted content you gave me does not exist.
i appreciate your feelings and interest in both the plight of the negro and the ancient jew
the politics behind the ME agendas is controlled by powers much beyond the little state of Israel
Marianne, I’m not here to argue a point. God is not the author of confusion 1st Corinthians 14:33. But Katrina is absolutely correct. American blacks, whose ancestors were part of the salve trade are Hebrew (Jews). This knowledge has been suppressed for hundreds, if not thousands of years. African Americans didn’t come from Ham, they came from Shem. Think about it. How could Pharoah’s sister raise Moses in Pharoah’s household without anyone knowing his true identity?? Because Moses had the same complexion as the Egyptians. How could Joseph’s brother’s not recognize him, when he was the number 2 person in charge in Egypt at that time?? Because Joseph had the same or similar complexion as the Egyptians. Like I said, I’m not hear to argue a point. I commend Katrina for trying to make it. However, some will never believe the truth. It is a widely held belief that Africans sold Blacks into slavery. The truth is that they sold them out because they knew those people were not native to that land. They had been driven into exile because of disobedience. I’m a descendant of a Levite and am African American. I am also one of the 144,000. This knowledge was imparted to me by the Holy Spirit. Whether you believe it or not is of no consequence to me. I only mention it to prove a point. I appreciate and actually agree with alot of the things you have mentioned on this site, so please don’t take this as bashing because I am not. Again, Katrina, I commend for even mentioning it. I have a distinct feeling that many in this world will be completely surprised when they see whom God has sealed as the 144,000!! This is why no one should argue about it. TIME answers all questions. Be blessed!!!
angela
I am sorry to disagree with you on your views, but there is NO evidence that africans are from shem….if they are not from Ham, then who is?
Pharoah and his court knew that Moses was not one of them….but another point, how do you know that pharoah was pitch black?
most drawings I see he is a bronze color, which is typical of the shemite jews at the time, as well as the arab shemites.
this bronze is a mix between white and black,, which indicates one of noah’s wives was black. the other wife was white. in the book of enoch, noah is described as having blonde or white hair, which makes him sound white to me. 2 sons were born of the white wife, and one was born of the black wife. Ham was black, which matches the africans, or at least most of them, especially toward the south, where intermarriage was less likely.
the egyptians and the hebrews were similar enough in appearance where any slight differences did not bother them
while I think there was ONE pharoah that was black, others were not
if you are black you are from Ham. and you, as a female, are NOT one of the 144,000. neither am I , because I am female also.
you believe a lot of myth….it is best to stick to scripture, and not follow man’s stories.
Jesus comes the second time to save the Jewish nation, after all He is the King of the Jews. Abraham’s children are in multitudes, millions and millions of people all over the World has Abraham’s blessing just as it was promised to him. These people already know they are the witness of God’s original promise to Abraham and they are waiting for God’s call. Christians are already saved by the ransom paid by the Christ. God is inviting great multitudes to his party . The chosen ones already know they are chosen. The seals are unfold accordingly.
God is love -this is His nature…Do expect beautiful blessings since where is true love there is no fear…Where God’s love resides there is nothing else exist just love. You can only see this with your cleansed heart – God’s beautiful presence among us – as a splendor in the midst of it all.
The Christ said,:”the World will not see me, but you will”. …Contemplate of what you really see in Him being present …among us. …and .choose the narrow gate
marta
thanks for that ….too many people have written off the jews as abandoned by god….he still has a plan for them. He is a covenant keeping god.
The 144,000 are the redeemed from amongst men first fruits of the great harvest of God. Saint Paul stated that the order of the resurrection is Christ the forerunner, first fruits and then every man and women in their own order.
Salvation truly cans to the Jews when the risen Christ openned the forth seal and ushered into his heavenly Kingdom the Old Covenant saints who were crying over the altar of God from Abraham down to Daniel. The promise that God had given to Abraham was delivered and the prophesy in Ezekiel 37:11-14 was fulfilled in Matthew 27:52-53 where the Old Covenant first fruits who are waiting on Abraham’s Bosom in paradise were raised and taken into their own land or dwelling place. This dwelling place that Abraham was sojourning to find was the dwelling place of God and when Christ raised them he clothes them in the white garments of Angels to be ushered into the heavenly kingdom that was established during the time of the historical kings as prophisied by Daniel 2:44. So the land that the Old Covenant Jews were taken to was the country promised to then as the many hosts of heaven within the angelic realm to dwell with Christ forever.
Then the Holy Spirit said blessed are the dead from now on for their works will follow them, meaning that every new covenant man and women will be resurrected as angels up death which the souls under the altar who were cost raised were told to be patient and wait for their new covenant brothers to also die and be ready raised by being given the white garments of Angels. This is Saint Paul ain’t that every man and women in their own order at the Lord’s Apearing when the thief which is death chines on a day and hour that no man knows to destroy their earthly house which is their body. Just like in the days of Noah when they were suddenly taken is according to the central theme which is death, who is the thief which takes us or if this early realm life. This is why Jesus said some standing here will not taste death and suffer to go down to Paradise after he enters his heavenly kingdom, because those that remained alive after Christ’s ascension were those who no longer needed to wait for the reaping of the harvest or as scripture states the time of the harvest. This is why in Revelation of John is states that after the first fruits were raised then the three Angel messages were announced and they were to the start preaching the everlasting gospel to the gentle multitudes from every nation and another Angel announcing the harvest is now in the present tense ripe for the picking and the third to fear Good and worship only him.
Sequentially to this is where the Holy Spirit days blessed are the faithful that die from now on fir their works done in the body will follow them, meaning after the testator dies, then they are judged righteous to recieve their crown of righteousness at the Lord’s Apearing and to recieve their eternal inheritance that christ had already laid for them when he promised that he will raise them on their last day in the body. As Saint Paul stated to be away from the body is to be immediately present with the Lord and this is why he also states that we look forward to death to be brought before the risen Lord top recieve or crown of righteousness the second time without sin. The first time was when we were born of the flash through our mothers womb inheriting the sin of Adam and the second time is when we are redeemed from amongst men by being raised in our incorruptible angelic bodies without sins and that is why scripture states that the Holy ones come with Christ as the symbolic white cloud he rides.
The risen Lord stated to his disciples that the world will never seen him again but his disciples will on context to the Holy Ghost that was to be given and that is why he states that he will not leave the faithful fatherless and he will come Ovi then to make his dwelling within the context of the Holy Ghost where he states that you will be in me and I in you and this is why Jesus stated that he needed to go before he comes as the Holy Ghost to dwell in the hearts of believers and manifesting himself onto them spiritually. This is why judas bit Iscariot asked Jesus hire can you manifest yourself onto us yet the world will not see you again. This is why Jesus said in a little while you will see me no more and yet in a little while I week come into you and make my abode with you as the Holy Ghost and you week be in me and I in you. As it is written in Revelation of John the risen Lord says that he stands at the door of your hearts and knocks and if any man or women opens their heart to him he week come into them in Spirit and as the Holy Ghost to sup Wirth them.
Jesus before going said he must go in order for the Holy Ghost to come and the Spirit of truth will never leave you. So you can now discern tar the risen Lord is present with the believer as the Holy Ghost and that is why the singular manifested presence must go in order for his omnipresent Holy Ghost to reside in the hearts of the believers and this means that they’re cab not be two presences of the same person who is Christ within our time and space earthly realm others it would contradict his words of only one presence of his personhood. This is why there is no literal second coming of Christ in the time based realm because he is already here as the Holy Ghost and since he can’t be removed it is logistical to state that no one can come to the Lord unless they first die then be judged in the separation of the sheep and goats then be resurrected as his angels. The works well never ever see the risen Lord.
The statement that all eyes will see him had been happening for almost 2000 years when he ascended up as the Almighty Judge and judging has been judging the people’s of every nation one by one after the thief Congress for them when they are brought forward for judgement. The high priest who accused Jesus was told from now on you will see the Son of man going into his kingdom. This happened to the high priest when he died to be brought before the Lord to be judged as cast out as the goat who rejected him. So ask eyes will definitely see that Lord because all men are destined to die once then judgement.
The unbelieving jews today are symbolic of the prodigal son who sold his father’s inheritance and when with the swine of the world and became a gentile himself because he feel out of his father’s grace. Yet we are told the oldest son being those who heard the gospel last who became the first to believe are symbolic of the part son who became jealous because he had served the risen Lord longer as the 3rd, 6th and 9th hour workmen. The youngest son will be joining to the Father and will be the first to hear the gospel and the last to recieve it as the 11th hour workmen. The youngest prodigal son who chives back to the risen Lord who is the heavenly eternal Father to work for him in the last hour of earths history before God destroys it.
The way God brings the youngest son back is through the stern warning from the men of Nineveh and the elijah who is chosen from that house. Remember the Holy hand that sent jonah to the men of Nineveh to relent least they be destroyed well send from the men of Nineveh as the jonah to rebuke them to be joined to the risen Lord. The lord said that the men of Nineveh will rebuke this generation. So Assyria becomes the handy with of Christ and Israel his inheritance and Egypt the remaining gentle world who recieved the gospel and were then called his people.
Today’s jews will be joined to the men of Nineveh as the 11th hour workmen as the final call and rally to restore all things back to Christ before the beast of the bottomless pitt aka Lucifer perpitrates a works wide calvary of the true 11th hour Christianity. Isaiah 14 symbolically calls satan the Assyrian King of mystery Babylon and that he is ushered into the world in Pomp and ceremony and His followers say to him you have become weak and mortal like us and human like us. The decree from God is to bring lucifer as a man into the world so that he and His offspring are prepared for slaughter.
Thec incarnated devil is already sworn in and he said in the Pomo and ceremony here I AM I come from far away.
So there is no earthly coming of Christ and no earthly kingdom the kingdom of Christ was established almost 2000 years ago with his old covenant betide the first fruits and many new covenant sauna have been joining their old covenant brothers one by one after they die and be resurrected. The kingdom of Christ that he set up with his old covenant bride and set up his 24 heavenly judges the 24 elders 12 Old covenant and 12 disciples. This is where scripture states in present tense that the elders did sit with Christ as his hadn’t judges and judgements started to be applied for anyone one to dies. These are his jury.
Salvation truly cashew to the Jews they already have been brought up into their promised heavenly land and reigning as the 24 heavenly judges. Remember the earthly 24 judges was a shadow of what was to happen when christ came the first and only time to raise them up from their graves and take them in their own land (Matthew 27:52-53).
The only thing that awaits is satan’s false world wide peace and works wise calvary. First the 11th hour workmen that will turn the tide in the elijah movement will first restore all things onto Christ then they will be taken out of the way by satan who is already in the world in person. Then the sixth seal week be opened to unleash the earthly judgements that the is covenant saints crying under the altar requested who were told to wait and be patient until their new covenant brothers also die. This judgement was postponed until a symbolic time time and half a time which basically is the time I’d the reaping of the harvest until Christ comes as a brilliant light that erases the old earth and heaven and hell and death itself will be annihilated because once the wedding supper of the lamb is fully furnished then death and hem cannot continue neither can the earthly realm.
If you believe this shit then you are truly insane
Jesus loves his own people and truly cares for them. He said ” I have another pen of sheep to tend to” and I will unite them. Jewish people are great. They made a tremendous contribution to the World’s great achievements all over the World. Jesus is pleased with them in many ways and takes a delight watching them….Many see Him already, these are the first fruits…This is about the first fruits of the Fig tree, This is how we know: this is the Season, because of the first fruits and we all lifted up our heads.
It is all in the promise made . Aloha to you, and to you all.
[…] The 144,000 and the rest of the Jews […]
India Reckoner said this on July 8, 2014 at 1:30 am |
Buuuullshit
Hello,
You said:
“There are about 13 million Jews in the world at this time, who will return to Israel in the last days. Only 144,000 young Jewish men are selected by God to be sealed before the tribulation. What about the rest of the Jews?”
Could you please show me in scripture where it A.) says they are men and B.) that all 144,000 are “Jewish”? “Defiled with women” is code talk for false religions, Babylon and her harlot daughters. Are you not aware that Judah was 1 of the 12 tribes, not all 12 tribes. All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. The 10 lost tribes, aka the House of Israel, must join with the House of Judah to make 1 stick. This has not happened yet. Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 says this:
“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which SAY they are Jews, and ARE NOT, but are the synagogue of Satan.”
“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which SAY they are Jews, and ARE NOT, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”
Those who call themselves Jews today are not from the tribe of Judah, they are Edomites pretending to be Jews who are trying to steal back the inheritance Esau sold for a bowl of red pottage.
elle
I have heard this false claim before that the jews ( hebrews) in modern israel and elsewhere are not real jews ( hebrews)…..there is no proof…just a false story going around the internet….someone is just trying to de-legitimize them and I am not going to bother with it.
it is like saying the English people are not British
jew is a relaxed term for all israelites (hebrews)….i guess it is easier to say……
if the 144000 were females, it would have not have mentioned not being defiled with women…so they were males.
young ones
the tribes of israel are listed as to who the 144000 are so they are all jews ( hebrews/Israelites)
Incredible. At the start of your post you mention the lack of ‘proof’ but you entirely ignore the simple fact that there is no proof whatsoever that god exists.
WOW, just WOW! Bible tells you there are false Jews and you deny scripture. Bible tells you there are 2 houses and you deny scripture. Jew is not a relaxed term for all Israelites (Hebrews). Hebrews were and never will be Jews. How could they be? Heber was Abraham’s father who lived long before Judah was ever born. All descendants of Heber are Hebrew, but not all Hebrews were Israelites. Obviously you don’t understand the use of symbolism, being defiled with women does not mean physical, blood-pumping women. Babylon has harlot daughters, these are the women they were not defiled with. The word “men” is not even in the scripture, you assume they are men based solely on the use of the word “women”. You should not teach that which you do not understand.
elle
I am sorry, but you are too ignorant to talk to.
you do not understand the bible….
there was NO ONE named “Heber”…..
the first Hebrew was Abraham….hebrew comes from a word meaning called out from his people….
I suggest you take a real bible class and stay in there several years.
Heber
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Heber&qs_version=NIV
Oh, woe is me again.
Blessings
Psalm 37
oops sorry you are right that Heber existed. the israelites were called hebrews, but not due to him, from what I understand
recovered from spam…due to link u guess
Appears ignorance belongs to you and you alone. Heber is exactly where the word “Hebrew” stemmed from. Hebrew does not mean “one called out from his people”. It means (H5680) “one from beyond” and is patronymic from H5677 which incidentally is Eber or Heber which means “the region beyond”. I have no need of a Bible class, but it is very obvious that you do. Just to clarify when I said Heber/Eber was Abraham’s father, I was wrong. He is one of Abraham’s forefathers.
Eber’s name can be found in Genesis 11:17 FYI.
same thing
the point is that abraham was the first hebrew to separate from his people and “go beyond.” hebrews do not get their name from Eber
YES THEY DO.
H5680
Hebrew = “one from beyond”
n pr
a DESIGNATION of the PATRIARCHS and the Israelites
adj
a designation of the patriarchs and the Israelites
PATRYNOMIC FROM:
H5677
Eber or Heber = “the region beyond”
son of Salah, great grandson of Shem, father of Peleg and Joktan
a Gadite chief
a Benjamite, son of Elpaal and descendant of Sharahaim
a Benjamite, son of Shashak
a priest in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua
profanity and verbal abuse removed from comment. please keep it clean.
I did, that is why I used 2 asterisks and one letter. You may want to go and remove the 2 comments that talk about dung that comes from a bull as well. (“Dung” is used in the Bible, maybe that will appeal to your liking. How do you deal with 2Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12, Ezekiel 14:12 and 14:15. God uses slang words, but you will deny it.) The 2 comments are dated December 31, 2014 and the other dated February 24, 2011. You don’t want to look like a hypocrite do you? The fact is you are. The reason you removed the last 1/2 of my comment was because I called you a liar and a deceiver, not because I used a cleaned up profanity word. If you were so concerned about profanity, you would have removed the 2 aforementioned comments long ago. Instead you let one remain for almost 4 YEARS.
Anyhow, you are still a liar and deceiver and you wouldn’t know truth if it came up behind you and bit you on your bum. There is that better?
Knowing the truth? The bible is a disgusting man-made piece of divisive shit that has caused untold misery to human beings for 2000 years. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that god exists? Anything at all?
BTW, again if you were so concerned about “profanity and verbal abuse” then why did you leave “michaelsguardian’s” comments dated July 7, 2012 up? She said a profanity word and she also pointed out that you are a liar and a false teacher (I used deceiver) yet you left her comments up. Doesn’t that make you a hyp******? You called me “ignorant”, that is verbal abuse, but unlike you, I do not have the luxury of removing those things which offend me and nor would I. You need a thicker skin, you will never make it through the G.T. if this is how you respond to criticism now. You are being tested and have failed miserably.
COMMENTS FROM MICHAELSGUARDIAN:
1.)
“No you did not answer any question about the false Jews. You accuse me of not having understanding when it is YOU trying to misappropriate the information. I proved every time with scripture POSTED of what I said. I proved you wrong about your claim in Romans 1:11 and now you’re ****ED and throwing out accusations.
YOU are a FALSE TEACHER. You are PURPOSELY misquoting the Bible – I posted proof. You ignore it and accuse me.”
2.)
“LOL! I posted Bible verses. I don’t need your help in understanding. This has nothing to do with Michael. You are a LIAR. You can’t back up your accusations. Go look up the history of the Talmud sweetheart. When was it first put in written form?”
now that you have vented, maybe you should consider a website of your own.
this is my site, and my sincere opinions.
on your site, you can express yourself to your heart’s content.
Pro 16:18 – Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Another way of saying this is that you would cut off your own nose to spite your face. You are in need of some major humbling.
may God bless you and forgive you
I have nothing to be forgiven for IN REGARDS to our exchange of words and no need of your blessings. I spoke the truth and nothing but the truth. You embraced lies and arrogance and your fall will be great.
elle
I do not see why you continue here. i did not call you a liar, you called me one, just because you differ in thought from me. I am not arrogant, as accused. do not come back here.
I lay claim to being one of the Elect 144,000
I have been chosen as the first born of my family i was 17 and had not know a women yet the year was 1976. As i recall there was a cloud , the holy spirit and a something and it asked me if i would do something for the devil well i said no. And after that day it was like i was being called to go into a church any church just a church this lasted about 2 weeks it pasted and i just walk away and lived my life.
From 17 to 36 i kind of felled like i had a guard around about me, but now was living just south of lee fl and my guard was lost a person had disregarded my seal and hurt me. And so how did this person do this here and there are wells that have manna in them, manna can remember sounds music intent like love and hate, love and hate become a song and manna can remember it and that could be a good thing or a bad thing, and so i have gone off looking into how your body’s make angles with manna as a idea on how this could happen.
So i follow the ” i am ” , holy spirit, the 3rd eye the inter eye the eye of my heart but still i am tempted by the lower ones of my own body they are cast out but seem to still follow me about.
On the question of male female the elect 144,000 are males they are as one and still called Israel that’s a male’s name, oh but Jesus was and is a male in his body, spirits do not marry.
After i was chosen i could have gone out married any women i wanted , but you know i was and still am keep in a way of what is right and what is not right so it is not right to a wife and have means for her, and so if i follow higher reasoning that seems to what is and been wanted by the ” i am ” or Rd Eye all along from any /all.
Are you having counselling?
I believe that ONLY the 144,000 will seal the baptised. We know from the Order of Priesthood that a baptised mother saves her children if the father is unbaptised and/or forbids the children become baptised. Those DIRECTLY sealed by God will cause those who believe on His Name (only those who are baptised) to become sealed by those who begat us. A soul does NOT believe on His Name (inwardly, in the heart) until it has entered all baptisms. Many say they believe, but that which dwells within them contradicts that. We cannot enter the Kingdom of God (after being sealed) by words alone.
Thee fulfillment of the destiny of the 144,000, will lead God’s chosen into His final protection (the seal of the Living God) upon them. The 144,000 are the entire puzzle, while the others are the pieces that compromise it. It was glorious to witness part of it. (Nevertheless) There is so much to do before God’s chosen earn their way into Heaven. God will have to break our yokes of bondage before we can learn Our identities. Surely, the spectrum of how we will be sealed changes when we include the dimensions of how we can exclude death from a God who represents life. It is said in Reve. that in the End, the dead will walk the Earth. Maybe then, those who presently sleep in the grave (and/or sleep in Christ) will add the wisdom of The Afterlife to the oh so popular belief that “Heaven is two feet away. As a catholic, I believe Heaven is not easy to get into and that it is the FINAL destination of those who have washed their robes clean. And so on and so forth- catholicism explains the mysteries FOR ME!!!
hi jenny
I appreciate your thoughts…just a quick note….we do not “earn our way to heaven.” jesus did that for us on the cross. we have to accept his work, repent, and then live righteous before him after wards. but I do agree that heaven will be difficult for most people, because they do not want to have jesus as first in their life.
Any evidence to support your irrational statement?
Do you have a shred of evidence to prove your incredible statements? No? They are entitely irrational then.
Shalom! Actually you could not be more wrong as to who the 144,000 are. The 144,000 are simply Jewish, no other qualifier is given within the context. They are not necessarily followers of Jesus either, all we know is that they are Jews hand picked by G-d. In fact one prevailing theory is that the 144,000 are constantly being reincarnated till their time comes.
They are actually going to be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes totaling 144,000. These are going to be the head of the body in the kingdom for the kingdom will have a hierarchy with the children of Israel as the rulers. The gentiles which are the wild olive branch will be handmaids and servants. Isaiah 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
Jeremiah 29:14 I will be found by you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”
Utter nonsense
You are clearly insane
What a complete load of shit. Total fucking nonsense from beginning to end. It is incredible that human beings actually believe this utterly contemptible rubbish.
sounds like you think you will enjoy hell, but you won’t
Haha. I hate to trespass on your delusions by introducing logic and reason, however I will try to save you from yourself. Do you have any proof that god exists? Do you have any proof that hell exists? Do you have any proof that the bible is the word of god? Do you have any rational justification for putting your particular god above all other gods? Do you not think it odd that divine creator of the entire cosmos has apparently pre-ordained that a certain number of members of a range of ancient (and totally forgotten) middle-eastern tribes will be allowed to enter heaven? On a separate note – have you actually read the bible completely? I have (i am sorry to say). It is full of war, death, murder, misogyny, homophobia and is pro-slavery. It is so obvious that it is an entire fiction compiled by human beings that it beggars belief that anyone actually believes it to be the words of the ‘creator’.
steve
the answer to all questions is “yes”
have a good day
I, and all other atheists, would desperately like to learn what proofs you have. Please enlighten us and put us out of our misery!
steve
you are asking for too much info, that I could not possibly post it all here.
I don’t mind going one issue at a time, and even that would be time consuming.
you are starting from scratch, 0, so this could be a very long discussion
where do you want to start?
also, I have heard of people who were unbelievers who just prayed and asked god if he was real, to reveal himself to them, and it actually worked,…god showed up in their lives.
and what convinces me, may also not convince you… you need your own revelation.
Facts and evidence will suffice. Feelings, hearsay, received opinion and quoting the bible will not. Ok let’s start with your proof that god exists.
you can google this yourself….
I am not convinced you are sincere.
I do not want to put endless evidence out there and then you reject and mock it.
I do not have time for such games
I guess you think you came from primordial slime by evolution.
I am a retired scientist, cell biologist and biochemist….and there is no evidence for that. it is all BS
What????? Google the proof of god’s existence??? Are you a total idiot???? Do you have any proof or not??? Now let’s keep this simple and logical. I know you have no proof and you know you have no proof. Do you not think that you have wasted your entire life believing a total fiction and subjecting yourself to idiotic, life-sapping rules? Now either present just one single credible proof that god exists or, frankly, STFU.
the proof is already out there, written up
I should not have to waste time repeating what is already out there
i guess you do not know how to google
I do not live by life sapping rules…I live by the grace and mercy of God
I know God exists, he has appeared to me a dozen times already
What is this proof that is out there and written up? Are you going to say the bible??? Maybe you should google ‘sources of the bible’ and ‘contradictions in the bible’. And while you are at it, google homophobia and slavery in the bible as well. Have you actually read that vile book? All of it? I have. It is truly appalling and for every mention of ‘love’ there are at least 10 mentions of war, murder, punishment and death. Did you even know that the penalty for breaking 7 of the 10 commandments is death? Even if it were not full to the brim with disgusting idiocies it has no evidential value. You cannot say the bible is true because the bible says it is true. Now you say God has appeared to you multiple times. Assuming you were not on drugs or hallucinating, please enlighten me as to how precisely these events took place.
you are a troll
I am not going to bother with you
It never ceases to amaze me that religious people are completely incapable of engaging in logical discussion and are totally unwilling to even consider the validity of alternative views. I am totally willing to be converted if you can prove that god exists, which is the fundamental premise underpinning the entire edifice of religion. If that premise cannot be proven then the entire edifice falls. You say you have proof; you say it has been written up; you say that god has appeared to you on multiple occasions. However, when I ask for any proof that any of those assertions is true your only response is that I should google it. On pressing you for any proof whatsoever your only response is that I am troll. No I am not. I am simply asking you to present your arguments which you say proves the existence of god so that i can judge for myself. You are unable to do so. There is only one logical conclusion to be drawn. Good night.
you are in unbelief and will not accept anything I say, so why try?
I already told you these answers are already on the internet, and I do not need to repeat them
if you were interested, you would seek the answers.
but since you are not interested, you just come here and argue
You are evasive, disingenuous and irrational. I spent many years looking for evidence and trying to believe. I never found any credible proof of god’s existence whatsoever. All i found was the bible – and having read every page I concluded it was a repulsive document written by mendacious human beings – and billions of people who inquestioningly believe simply for no.other reason than that they have been conditioned to believe since birth by the societies and families into which they were born. So yes – I am in unbelief. It is the only rational response. Now, you have a chance of converting this unbeliever by showing me proof of god’s existence and all you can say is ‘google it’. If that is the best you can do, then why don’t you at least tell me the links to the websites where you believe that proof can be found. It is NOT the case that I will not accept anything you say. I will accept anything you say which is based on evidence and logic. I will not, however, accept what you say just because you insist on saying it. Would you accept the latter in any other area of your life whatsoever?
you are too negative to deal with.
you are also lying
if you had googled the search, you would have found websites devoted to this
I am not going to be your brain, and do all the work.
U r a fucking jerk. You have no proof of anything. I am not negative. Asking for evidence and proof is rational and logical. You are irrational and illogical. What level of education did you obtain? Googling the proof of god’s existence is insane. Google has been around for 20 years. Christains, Jews, Muslims etc etc have been around for thousands of years. They were not relying on google for the evidence to support their beliefs. Now please either you or the followers of this blog provide one piece of credible evidence to support your assertion that god even exists, never mind all of the berserk beliefs that flow from that, or at least have the intellectual honesty to admit you do not have any proof. Otherwise I will be forced to the logical conclusion that you have been conditioned since birth to hold the beliefs you have and that your whole world view is so enmeshed in them that you are totally incapable of looking at them critically or from any other perspective. This is not ‘negativity’ – not agreeing with your unsupported assertions is not negative – it is simply rational. Maybe you should google ‘rational’ and ‘logical’.
you are too stupid to google
are you also too stupid to read and understand as well?
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/Godreal.html
http://witscience.org/first-scientific-proof-god-found/
http://cosmicfingerprints.com/read-prove-god-exists/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/scientists-use-computer-to-mathematically-prove-goedel-god-theorem-a-928668.html
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-mathematical-proofs-of-Gods-existence
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/computer-scientists-prove-god-exists/story?id=20678984
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/07/01/nasa-finds-message-from-god-on-mars/
http://commandtheraven.com/nasa-proves-the-bible-is-true-the-missing-day/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/614962/NASA-scientists-discovered-GOD-17-000-light-years-away-pulsar-PSR-B1509-58-NUSTAR-Hand
http://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blog/stephen-hawking-and-leonard-mlodinows-inadvertent-proof-for-god/4526/
these are all scientific references.
btw I have a graduate degree in science, biochemistry
A degree in science?????? U have got to be lying. Let’s see if you can prove that. Science is entirely based on logic and evidence to produce conclusions. I will check out the weblinks you have provided and review to what extent they consist of proven evidence or unsupported assertions. You should note that it is also extremely easy to google websites that completely debunk the bible, the torah and the koran. If googling is your evidential standard then why don’t you go and do that too. I will write further when i have reviewed the links. Have a good day.
no steve, I am a biochemist, and worked in scientific research for 40 years before retiring.
I am quite familiar with logic and the scientific method.
here is one publication
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcp.10122/abstract
Ok. 1st website which fundamentally states that DNA is so complex that it must have been created by an intelligent designer. No evidence is put forward to prove this. It is simply asserted that this must be the case. Humans have always said that about things they could not yet understand. Eclipses and storms were signs of divine intervention; the catholic church believed the world was at the
Centre of the universe etc etc. All now debunked. Darwin proved evolution was real and that atural mechanisms underpinned it. At no point did he conclude that god’s intervention was the cause. Just because science and rational analysis has not yet solved every issue does not mean that therefore a god must be responsible for all if the things we do not yet fully understand. IF a super-intelligent god created DNA then who or what created that god? Or has it simply always existed. An impossible and absurd conundrum. The fact that Clinton equated the science of genomes with god is no evidence at all. The article then makes the giant leap to asserting that the bible is god’s word and guidance for mankind. Again, a totally unsupported assertion which the reader is simply supposed to accept as fact.
evolution is a hoax. no proof at all.
Evolution is a hoax? And you have a science degree? Oh dear. But DNA is so complex a god must have created it? And simply asserting that is sufficient evidence for you? What was your social and family environment when you were a child?
there is NO evidence for evolution.
and evolution cannot explain DNA
a few fossils found were presented together as a missing link later, when the fossils were a collection of different animals, so the only attempt at proving evolution proved to be a fraud.
some atheists are desperate, so they assume because they believe evolution, that. that makes it true…
evolutionists have no scientific data….it is all theory, and a decision to just believe their own opinions as fact, when there is no evidence.
I do not consider evolutionists to be scientists…they do not go through the same discipline as most scientists…..evolutionists are more socialistic in thinking, rather than resorting to scientific methodology
darwin never presented any, and random events cannot explain the complexity and quick assembly of materials, and also the soul and spirit of an animal or human
until you graduate from high school, and get proper training, you should not question a professional scientist
unbelievable and incredible. You are a professional scientist? Prove it. So you prefer the story of Genesis? You have obviously been conditioned since birth to believe this ludicrous religion and stupid book. Google ‘sources of the bible’ and learn what a mish-mash of conflicting shit it really is. There is no logic or rationality to anything you come out with and frankly you are entirely incapable of critically assessing the validity of or justifications for your beliefs. Quick assembly of materials? Dinosaurs ruled the earth for millions of years. Humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years. Soul? Spirit? Proof please. You have no idea of my level of education. It far exceeds your own. But resorting to such points is irrelevant and has no bearing on the discussion. The only relevant points are proven facts and credible evidence. Your only point seems to be that things are so complicated that a god must have designed them. And that is from a supposed scientist! Goodbye. Have a good time in heaven, if your religion allows you in. Obviously god so hates unbelievers (whom he created apparently) and will doom them to hell for eternity. What a complete cunt your god is.
steve
I do not know why you are on a christian website if you hate god ,or do not believe in him, and do not want to either.
I gave you a set of links, you did not get past the first one.
I already gave you a link to one of my scientific publications….but you did not read it.
God is spirit, so we look at the physical world, and see the evidence. if you cannot see it, you are blind.
you certainly get upset at a god you do not believe in.
Oh deary me. The second link you sent? The one which claims aramaic is written into human DNA? IT COMES FROM A SPOOF WEBSITE!!!!!! check out witscience.org. It includes articles about sending pizzas into space and cloning jesus in North Korea. This is the level of research and evidence you, supposedly a professional scientist for 40 years, are happy to accept proves the existence of god????? Incredible. Absolutely incredible. I rest my case.
I attempted to quickly find some links for you, because you were too lazy and negative to search yourself.
since you have a bad attitude, I will leave the searching up to you.
I hope you find the truth you SAY you are looking for.
If you really want the truth, you will find it.
HERE IS THE COMMENT I LOCATED REGARDING THE WEBSITE YOU QUOTED STATING THAT ARAMAIC IS WRITTEN INTO HUMAN DNA AND WHICH YOU CLAIMED IS A SCIENTIFIC REFERENCE Spoof website. I always go to the main site whenever something unusual comes up like this to see what other articles they have.
http://witscience.org/
Pizza hut delivering to the ISS
Obesity Impacting Earthquakes in US, Experts Say
steve
maybe this video will help you
Jesus came as proof there is / was a God. he taught about the Father, and the spiritual kingdom.
he performed miracles, healing many, casting out devils, and raised people from the dead. he walked in the power of God, and when they killed, him, he rose from the dead, because death cannot control the power of God, or God himself.
when he left, the holy spirit came, to transfer the power of god to the apostles…..then they also walked in the power of god. they also did what Jesus did.
the bible predicted many events that happened. this verifies the truth of the bible.
if you read what jesus taught, can you find something wrong with what he said?
whether you believe or not, he did change the world.
god sent his only (spirit) son, to teach and save mankind from evil, if they only believed and accepted jesus as savior for sins.
inside of you , you know things you have done in life have been wrong…this conscience in you is the presence of the holy spirit, it is your spirit man.
the goal is to connect to the spirit world again, to the father in heaven, and to achieve peace.
we all want happiness and peace….
while it may seem that only christians, or believers in god, are “programmed” to believe, it is the same for atheists…they have been programmed by this world…….to disbelieve…..
do you want the truth for real?
then seek with all your heart, and you will find the truth…
if you run to god, he will run to you…
Thank you so much as Burundian,i have gained some thing,becouse some of us were confused about the number of 144000
Israelites presently are scattered throughtout the four corners of the earth… Negroes, Latinos, and those of North American Indian Descent… As for any other nations claiming this heritage or nation, see Rev. 2:9 and Rev. 3:9 KJV.
See also YouTube Video called, “Twelve Lost Tribes Found”
#Gatheringas144 #JudahsBack
Shalawam and Barak Atha!!! Great article!
Very good.
Will American women be taken back to Israel in the last days to be restored physically, even very old women, to their physical states as they were as young women, and help restore Israel after America is destroyed? My mother has been saved since 1966 and she is almost 79 with a prolapsed uterus that she refuses to have snipped out to alleviate the pain and infections she is experiencing because she states she is of the blood line of Joseph of Aramathea and she will be changed to a new young woman with her body completely restored in the near future and she’ll be able to have more children with a man who is coming from Israel-a Hebrew-who is going to marry her, fly her to Israel, and she and he will provide a place for all of her 5 children, 19 grandchildren, and 3 great grandchildren together with all of our husbands/wives became America will be destroyed very soon. She’s been saying this is our last Christmas since 1980, and the Lord is coming back soon, and I don’t know my Bible as she does, and she holds her salvation over all 5 of her children who are aged 49 – 58. Help me! I’m worried about my mother who has been a widow for 41 years and will be 80 in approximately 1.3 years. Thank you for your time and assistance with this unbelievable situation! Sincerely, Veronica Holter @ vholter.vh@gmail.com. 3/26/2018 @ 4:45 am MST.
veronica
I am not sure if you are a jewish family by faith, christian , or something else from the note,but I will give a christian viewpoint, since you are addressing your mom’s views.
your mom’s problem has strong points and weak points.
strong:
she has hope in a future that is good.
she is unwavering in her faith, which keeps her strong and alive
she believes all her children will be saved
she believes she will be young again
she does not want surgery at her age….which could be risky
weak
her body will not be renewed until after she dies and enters heaven, or is raptured
so this will not occur on earth, ie Israel or anywhere else.
before Israel and the earth can be a paradise again, there is going to be much destruction everywhere, as God removes the wicked in his wrath, so everyone who is alive now will have to die and be removed before God can repair and re landscape the earth….
thoughts
your mom is going home to be with the Lord soon. she is old and it is about time.
just let her dream and be happy
you do not have to entertain the fantasies, but just be understanding that this is what gives her hope in her future…..
you all will be ok. Just love each other and trust God.
Than you for your reply! I appreciate it. I and my brothers and sister really love our mother; however, she seems to be slipping into some form of dementia or Alzheimer’s, and that’s what we’re really concerned about the most! She refuses any form of hel unless it’s only what she wants, when she wants it or when all 5 of us have reached ages where financially we are all drowning right along with her. I cannot bear to hear what she has been saying and doing, and I’ve spent many a night crying because I’ve reached a place where my health and finances are causing me to have to leave my home and find another state that is less expensive. Thus, I’m not sure if I’ll see her again. We don’t know how much longer she may live, and I could die before she does. We are trying to find ways to get her to seek the necessary help she may need, and she refuses to move into a community where she can live with such a low capped income (ie. A senior citizens type of ‘home.). Thank you for your time. I do appreciate it. 👍
veronica
there are others who need housing and are willing to do services for a place to stay. check local ads to see if someone can stay with her…with such an arrangement. cheaper than nursing and she won’t be alone.